What About Christmas?

[marie glen]

I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you

Amen! It's a great time and opportunity to show our deep love and appreciation for the people around us and in our life.. I often think how that is one of the elements of it all I would just hate to see fall to the wayside.. There's not enough of it in life already what with all of us having to engage in the rat race, in one degree of another, of man's world..
:Peace2: :hiya:

[marie glen]

This time of Christ-mass observance every year is a great time to reveal to those around us - CU.

The angels when they visited the shepherds the night of Jesus' birth (whatever time of year or day it was on, evening) .. they said - But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people (That great word "all" that goes so missed by so many.)

The word "all" is from #G3956. pas ► all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole

Would it be "good" news to some (actually most) if the news was they would suffer eternal torment? How is this thought to be "good news"?! [ :laughing7: jus sayin' :Peace2: ]

P.S. - I often will get asked to say blessing at our annual family get together Christmas meal.. if so this year, I will surely be pointing out this verse, especially the "great news to all"

[Eleutheros]

Hi Eleutheros, I know we may disagree but that is not a reason to not discuss.  Through a very lengthy discussion with a very patient and thoughtful, rational and logical person, I came through many days of mental tribulation to arrive at an embrace of Universal Salvation.  I believe it is a sin to debate in illogical and irrational manner and such discussions should be avoided.  So I don't want you to think that I see your comments in that manner or to think that I do not desire to discuss  the subject further, for I actually do.  So please know that I welcome the questions.

Ahh! Well said, trettep!

I, too, love questions! Unfortunately, for this conversation, I don't have any because I, too, have researched the history of Christmas and the arguments from scripture offered to counter it's celebration and understand why a modern believer might choose, for conscience sake, not to celebrate this mish-mashed holiday.

Especially if they've studied the Seven Festivals of Jehovah, which I have.

I think, then, that there would be few arguments I haven't already considered. Did you see the link I offered in my initial post to a succinct article that offers those arguments?

However, I will offer this to you for why I chose to celebrate Christmas - It's because the world at large does!

rosered (you beautiful soul, you) wrote this:

For me ,  it is the little ones that bless us the most  ....Whom melts our  hearts   like nothing else  ,   the smiles the hugs and unconditional love   and the joy it brings  by coming together  in the Love of God ..
It is just a day  we can do it  in  ,  that everyone is off work   because this world  observes it ...So we take advantage of the  ability to see those whom we never see  much  , because the world is spinning off its top   every day it seems     , going ninety  miles an hour ... :laughing7:

God knows our hearts and that is a wonderful thing  to trust in as well . :HeartThrob:

Christmas is a time when so very many hear the Gospel again, just like they did last year, and the year before. It's a time when an appeal is made to the good within us; a time when so very many willingly stop to contemplate the meaning behind the birth of The Savior of the World.

And it's a time when families seek each other out because of love.

As the Christmas hymn reminds us:

Truly He taught us to love one another
His Law is Love and His Gospel is Peace
Chains shall He break for the slave is our brother
And in His Name all oppression shall cease.

Wow. Those are good words! (Phil. 4:8)

And I love hearing them, and many like them, again and again and again!

And didn't you find yourself reading those words to the music? I'll bet you did, because the world knows this hymn, and many more like it.

Such is the power of Christmas; and I think that is the coolest thing.

In the Old Covenant, we learn that Jehovah ordained that the Hebrews were to keep the Festivals, especially Passover, on a yearly basis, as a memorial to remind them that Jehovah had set them free!

And so, despite the pagan roots of the holiday and its commercialization and the fact that there was no way Jesus could have been born during this time of year (He was likely born during the Feast of Tabernacles, Sukkot, which takes place in our October, just so you know that I know), somehow all of that other stuff has been transformed into a time when the world remembers the birth of the One Who will set them free, just as it was promised when the angels sang, in their angel style, how all of our hopes had come down to this Child!

He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of His love...

(Did I get you singing again?)

A Charlie Brown Christmas is so very popular, not just because of the cool music - that came later - but because of Linus's soliloquy; it was from that few minutes when Linus quotes the Bible that this hastily animated TV production became so endearing. The world took note that, "That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown." And they remind themselves of it every year as copies of it sell in the multi-thousands, annually. And the soundtrack, too.

Recently in our history, another "tradition" was started that centers around celebrating the birth of Jesus: The music and stories of Trans-Siberian Orchestra.

And, of course, there is that most enduring story of... redemption (the best one ever penned, apart from my own), A Christmas Carol, which reminds us all that there is yet hope for ourselves, if we will keep the Spirit of Christmas alive within us because, as Dickens noted, Christmas cannot be separated from its sacred name and origin:

"But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round—apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that—as a good time; a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time; the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"

And so it seems that, for as long as this age must endure, we'll have before us a time set aside by the world to remember the birth of Our Savior, despite the pagan roots of the earmarks of the holiday, which, for all the facts concerning their origins, have been purged of their original meanings.

Will Christmas be celebrated in the age to come, when Jehovah, as promised, is All and in All? (I Cor 15:28)

Not likely. But then neither is it likely that the Festivals will be celebrated either because they will have all been fulfilled; for won't We be dwelling within the very fulfillment of Sukkot?

"And so, as Tiny Tim observed, 'God Bless us, Everyone!'"

"Hark!" The Herald Angels sing, "Glory to the newborn King!"

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

And that's why I choose to celebrate Christmas!

[Eleutheros]

This time of Christ-mass observance every year is a great time to reveal to those around us - CU.

The angels when they visited the shepherds the night of Jesus' birth (whatever time of year or day it was on, evening) .. they said - But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people (That great word "all" that goes so missed by so many.)

The word "all" is from #G3956. pas ► all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole

Would it be "good" news to some (actually most) if the news was they would suffer eternal torment? How is this thought to be "good news"?! [ :laughing7: jus sayin' :Peace2: ]

P.S. - I often will get asked to say blessing at our annual family get together Christmas meal.. if so this year, I will surely be pointing out this verse, especially the "great news to all"

Ha! Well done mg!

It's for exactly things like that I call Universalisim the truth hidden in plain sight!

As with so much to do with scripture, I've discovered that the understanding has to come first, before its possible to understand scripture!

I remember reading an article wherein Jewish believers in Y'shua reported that they could not see, before their conversion, how Isaiah 53 was fulfilled by their Savior. Indeed, modern era Jewish commentaries go out of their way to explain why it does not apply to that carpenter's Son!

To the point concerning your post, I discovered something unsurprising, but nonetheless extraordinary: many post-KJV translators of Luke 2:14 re-translated a single word with a prepositional phrase that includes the preposition itself, two pronouns (one, two) and a verb that are simply not in the words the angel chorus sang!

In other words, the words these translators want to be there, indeed need to be there to justify this kind of translation are simply not there!

This is a link to a Greek Interlinear on that verse.


You can see that the re-translation of a single word with a whole bunch of words that aren't there occurs at the end with the Greek word eudokia

Compare that verse to this interlinear of Matthew 3:13 where a preposition and a pronoun do accompany the word eudokēsa (the verb form of eudokia), justifying its translation as a prepositional phrase.

(From that link, and the one before, you can click on the word eudokēsa (the verb form) and eudokia (a feminine noun) and work the link to see that a preposition and a pronoun are present in the other instances where eudokēsa is translated I am well pleased, and that for eudokia the same thing must be true, with the addition of a verb, for it to be translated as a prepositional phrase, for instance Matt 11:26. In other words, a prepositional phrase must be present in Greek to translate with a prepositional phrase in English and that phrasing is not present in Luke 2:14!).

So, why is it that these modern translators would do such a blatant, even egregious thing?

Guess.

Yes! That's right. because the words the single angel spoke before the chorus chimed in say, in straightforward language, that the good news of great joy was for ALL people!

And that just smacks to High Heaven of Universalisim!

(Okay, so I am not a Greek scholar. I just use the research tools available to discover things. Therefore, I welcome any critique on this conclusion of mine that modern English translators must have knowingly mis-translated Luke 2:14 to make it fit their theology. I mean even the KJV was never this blatant!)

So, what else is new?

Regardless, though, the story of Christmas is for all mankind, even as you have pointed out, mg!

Enjoy your time with your family tomorrow, and the day after.

You know I will.  :gimmefive:

Keep being good!

[Eleutheros]

Hey All!

My beautiful wife forwarded this viral facebook video to me (Note: I do not have a facebook account).

It's a perfect example of why I celebrate Christmas - because the world does!

Two construction workers pause to record themselves singing one of the most poignant Christmas songs of the modern era, Mary Did You Know.

Enjoy!

[Eleutheros]

rose, eleuthros (and all interested in the topic), I'll add my 2 cents from personal perspective. :)

...After believing in UR and seeing several things more unconventionally than before, I began to take a harder line on Christmas;  that it's pagan etc., and all the reasons I shouldn't participate.  After acting like a horse's behind a few times to my dear, sweet wife - one of the kindest-hearted people I've ever been blessed to know - but who was ET at the time and loved Christmas, I realized I'd made an idiot of myself.  Longer story short, I now don't really "celebrate Christmas" (or "Easter/Ishtar" etc.) for the days themselves, I personally don't like them and consider in my heart pretty much every day as another. 

However, I do buy gifts for my family, spend time together with them, have a meal, etc.  Don't really like Christmas trees, but my dear wife loves them, so she puts one up and I don't say a word.  Maybe even hang an ornament or two.  Don't mind singing a beautiful "Christmas" hymn now and then.  She knows it's basically not "my thing", but I also know that even though I can be a massive knucklehead, I need to treat her as kindly and gently as I can, as well as the rest of my family.  If it arises, I may share "true meanings" of things (as I understand them), but yet not make some legalistic big deal out of it, especially to the point of causing strife or dissension - or worse, hurt - within my family.      As I've said, I believe these things are a matter of conscience - to each! - not essentials of the faith (or to UR!), so perhaps a feeble attempt to major on majors (Jesus, crucified, risen again, Savior of the world) and minor on the minors (what day people decide to be happier on) :).

Hey jabcat!

Now that's what I call living peaceably with all men, (including wives) as far as it is possible with yourself.

Guess what, your celebrating Christmas! Why? Because of the law of love that He put into your heart that overcomes the juridical law, enforced in the name of truth, that seems to engender the kind of response toward others that you told us about.

Sounds to me like you keep Christmas in your heart, all year round! Cool.

I thank you much for sharing your Christmas story.

Please know that you are appreciated.

[Cardinal]

As a Universalist, what do you do with Christmas?

I know that my own family will be saved and learn at their appointed time.

Paul says in Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people."

Romans 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."

Romans 14;5 " One person regards one day more sacred than another, while another person regards all days the same.
                       EACH PERSON MUST BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND."

Romans 14;13 " Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another, but resolve this-
                        never to put an obstacle or a trap in a brother's way."

Romans 14;19 " So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual up-building."

Romans 14;22 " The faith that you have keep as your conviction before God.
                         Blessed is the one who has no reason to condemn himself for what he approves."

Romans 15;7 " Therefore accept one another as Christ has also accepted you."

This means, for me, that I celebrate with my family, but could just as equally not celebrate.
Either way we know about Christ but each at our own level, even within my own family.

I'd just like to point out that the context of Romans 14:13 is regarding the JEWISH feast days. Pagan feast days, which were the only other choice at the time, were not even a consideration, since the gentiles were grafted into the Jews and they kept the same feast days with them, at that time.  Pagan feasts were banned by the Torah, and Christmas didn't even exist at that time, although the pagan feast it was later tied into, did. Blessings...

[Eleutheros]

For me, Christmas is not a one time event of the year, just like baptism is not a one time event in a persons life, or communion a monthly or yearly event ...... I view it as a lifestyle, not an event

How can I not celebrate the birth of "the means by which I was freed from sin", to me every day is Christmas because that is what I  rejoice in, that is what I celebrate.

Christmas = Christ M.A.S. = Christ Makes All Saints ..... and that is this Universalists  :2c:

Christmas as a lifestyle! I like that thought. It goes well with Paul's words that fruitfulness in the Spirit should be manifested as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness and self-control.

And I've found its a lot easier to realize that fruit when I feel joy. Christmas helps me, like a cheerleader, to carry that joy into the next year, and it's a yearly boost, a reminder to me of where I came from and where I'm going.

Enjoy your time with your family!

[Eleutheros]

When I was younger, on Christmas morning, me and my sister would wake up to a tree surrounded with a plethora of presents. At a young age, honestly the main thing I cared about was how much stuff I was given. My parents took pictures, but I would try to rush it to find out all that we had gotten. Lately, after maturing more, I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you, out of love. I think many of us have idolized others who love us, who only do nice to get back, or to take of advantage of others for personal pleasure.

Now, at 19 years old, I am about to celebrate another Christmas with my family. I still am not sure if this is something I will do if I had a wife and children, but whoever we are, we should always walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, truth will be revealed, in Love.  :Pray:

Ah! What a great example of the difference maturity makes! Without the commercialism of Christmas you would never have the memories to compare where you were with were you are now. I think there are many more who can attest to the maturing process growing up with Christmas brings.

So, may I assume, given your moniker, that you listen to Christmas music?

May I ask you to share one of your favorites, if you have one?

I wish you a wonderful day, MusicLover123, with your family. God bless, and thank you for sharing from your heart.

[rosered]

  God bless you Eleutheros  , very richly with more and more of HIM ....

  Thank you for this post  , it has been most beneficial   at this time  , thanks to  all whom shared   ,  It would seem , there is so much hatred and divisions   in the world right now and the nations are angry    ,

Our hope is in the POWER OF ONE  , GOD will gather all things into Himself , One Spirit One faith One Hope One baptism   
,,Holy SPIRIT  is teaching so much right now ..

God bless you all  each and every day  :HeartThrob:

[trettep]

I hear it every year how Christmas is a time to spend with loved ones and family and to be surrounded by love. 

I don't believe that is what the Gospel is about.  I believe it is about loving those who persecute you and hate you.  I believe it is about turning the cheek.  I find it that Christmas is the time furthest removed from that environment.

What reward to do we have if we only love those that love us? 

[MusicLover123]

When I was younger, on Christmas morning, me and my sister would wake up to a tree surrounded with a plethora of presents. At a young age, honestly the main thing I cared about was how much stuff I was given. My parents took pictures, but I would try to rush it to find out all that we had gotten. Lately, after maturing more, I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you, out of love. I think many of us have idolized others who love us, who only do nice to get back, or to take of advantage of others for personal pleasure.

Now, at 19 years old, I am about to celebrate another Christmas with my family. I still am not sure if this is something I will do if I had a wife and children, but whoever we are, we should always walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, truth will be revealed, in Love.  :Pray:

Ah! What a great example of the difference maturity makes! Without the commercialism of Christmas you would never have the memories to compare where you were with were you are now. I think there are many more who can attest to the maturing process growing up with Christmas brings.

So, may I assume, given your moniker, that you listen to Christmas music?

May I ask you to share one of your favorites, if you have one?

I wish you a wonderful day, MusicLover123, with your family. God bless, and thank you for sharing from your heart.

Thanks for your responses Eleutheros, they are very insightful and heartwarming. I hope God blesses you and your family as well.

As for Christmas music? Well, honestly, I don't really listen to any of that stuff. I usually find it a bit boring for my tastes (Though, I find that a bit ironic for some types of music I like to listen to...)

But, since you asked, here are 3 of my favorite songs I listen to. You guys are from a bit of an older generation, so I do not think they will be appreciated by you as much as me. But, no harm in suggestions, right?

Drop - Heron - Album You are here now
Por La Noche - Photos From Nadira - Album Nadira
Souls in the Sky - David Helpling - Album A Sea without Memory

I recommend you try listening to these on Spotify(If you know what that is, of course. It is basically an online streaming service where you can listen to music online.)

Blessings  :dsunny:

ML

[MusicLover123]

I hear it every year how Christmas is a time to spend with loved ones and family and to be surrounded by love. 

I don't believe that is what the Gospel is about.  I believe it is about loving those who persecute you and hate you.  I believe it is about turning the cheek.  I find it that Christmas is the time furthest removed from that environment.

What reward to do we have if we only love those that love us?

I do agree with you, to a certain extent of course. Why not make it both about spending time with family, and about loving those who persecute you? What if your family is who is persecuting you? What if Christmas is the only time of the year that they can get together?

I also am curious, my parents say that whenever your family is in trouble, you always help them first. Would you agree with that, even if you felt conviction to help strangers you know beforehand?

:Peace2:

[jabcat]

Yeah, I don't see that it has to be a complete inverse, either totally black or totally white.  IMO, spending time with family doesn't necessarily mean one has to neglect anyone else.  And yes, I personally will always take care of family first. 

[Eleutheros]

  God bless you Eleutheros  , very richly with more and more of HIM ....

  Thank you for this post  , it has been most beneficial   at this time  , thanks to  all whom shared   ,  It would seem , there is so much hatred and divisions   in the world right now and the nations are angry    ,

Our hope is in the POWER OF ONE  , GOD will gather all things into Himself , One Spirit One faith One Hope One baptism   
,,Holy SPIRIT  is teaching so much right now ..

God bless you all  each and every day  :HeartThrob:

Why thank you, rosered!   :URWelcome:  I'm pleased you found this little soiree into Christmas beneficial. May all that is of Spirit be yours, forever!

Enjoy your day.  :Peace2:

[jabcat]

Hey jabcat!

Now that's what I call living peaceably with all men, (including wives) as far as it is possible with yourself.

I thank you much for sharing your Christmas story.

Please know that you are appreciated.

:dsunny:

[jabcat]

Hi Jabcat, my wife also observes Christmas.  She has a small tree in our living room. God has not blessed me with persuading her to give up Christmas observance.

:Peace2:

[Patinak]

[Luk 2:10-11 YLT] 10 And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people -- 11 because there was born to you to-day a Saviour -- who is Christ the Lord -- in the city of David,

Merry Christmas everyone!

[rosered]

[Luk 2:10-11 YLT] 10 And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people -- 11 because there was born to you to-day a Saviour -- who is Christ the Lord -- in the city of David,

Merry Christmas everyone!

Merry Christmas   Patinak !! :dsunny:
in the tune of tiny Tim , God bless us everyone  :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

Hi everyone,
I know this is a little old now but I wanted to reply and never got the chance.

I was raised to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, but also received lots of presents that day. 

Then as a young adult I was more agnostic but still celebrated Christmas with family...then had a born again/spiritual experience and began reading the bible, praying a lot etc...and still celebrated.  Then my cousin, who also became "born again" but had the influence of a pastor at a very small church that he founded, began to tell me that Christmas was pagan, not Jesus's birthday etc.  I looked into it all, and much of that is true...so I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate. 

I continued to celebrate with family but was unsure, and felt that maybe I was violating something and that God would be displeased with me for celebrating.  So I just did it for family at that time but felt an icky feeling.

Then I became Christian Universalist and also have young kids.  Slowly after that time I have grown to love certain aspects of Christmas.  Like the OP said, what other time of year can you hear songs being played that have such great lyrics?  Also, I know we all talk about being in the spirit nature and not the carnal nature...but we are here on earth and benefit greatly from signs, symbols, and setting aside certain times to focus on something.  It would be nice if we could celebrate every day, but I get easily distracted and bogged down by the world.  Having an anchor to focus on something helps me. 

So during the Christmas season my kids and I read a lot of books about when Jesus was born.  They know Santa is pretend but I did teach them about the real person Saint Nicholas who lived in Greece and gave to others in secret (yes I know there are other pagan connections to Santa Claus).  We watch VeggieTales movies like the Little Drummer Boy (yes I know it is a made up story).  We listen to lots of Christmas music, both Christian and secular.  Just this morning my 5 year old was singing "Mary Did you Know?" While getting ready for school. 

How about these UR lyrics "God rest ye merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, remember Christ our savior was born on Christmas day, to SAVE US ALL from Satan's power when we had gone astray"   (not to save us from hell!)

or:

"Mary did you know, that your baby boy, would SAVE OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS" (not some of them)

or:

Hark the herald angels sing "Glory to the newborn King! Peace on earth and mercy mild God and sinners reconciled" (we are all sinners)

I also love Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel"
"What Child is This" and some others. 

I think Jesus's birth, while not explicitly commanded to celebrate, and of course did not occur on Dec 25, is still important to remember, because without his birth he would have never taught us on earth, walked among us, and died to show his love, and then was resurrected.  I think his teachings and how he lived on this earth are important to remember, and it would have never happened had he not been born, had Mary and Joseph not said "yes" to God. 

The one aspect of Christmas is that troubles me is that my parents and in-laws buy them too much, despite each year me telling them to get them one small gift.  But even that is a lesson to my kids, as we talk about WHY they get gifts (because people love them and want to show their love to them, not because Santa brings gifts to "good kids." And we talk about gratitude and giving to others to show love).  My oldest is easily overstimulated and so the abundance of gifts and visiting family and eating treats gets to him every year, and I have to try to figure out how to combat that.  To say that celebrating with family is easier than loving your enemies---sometimes family is your enemy!  My brother wouldn't talk to me for about 2 years, and what finally brought us back together was Christmas.  And now we are back to being close and loving.  My husband's family is loving but we have issues there as well, such as a cousin who is aggressive toward my kids, and other things we don't see eye to eye on.  To make an effort to spend time with and love family is WORK and not always easy. 

Anyway I know this topic comes up every year, but I wanted to give my two cents and share my experience. 

[MusicLover123]

Hi everyone,
I know this is a little old now but I wanted to reply and never got the chance.

I was raised to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, but also received lots of presents that day. 

Then as a young adult I was more agnostic but still celebrated Christmas with family...then had a born again/spiritual experience and began reading the bible, praying a lot etc...and still celebrated.  Then my cousin, who also became "born again" but had the influence of a pastor at a very small church that he founded, began to tell me that Christmas was pagan, not Jesus's birthday etc.  I looked into it all, and much of that is true...so I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate. 

I continued to celebrate with family but was unsure, and felt that maybe I was violating something and that God would be displeased with me for celebrating.  So I just did it for family at that time but felt an icky feeling.

Then I became Christian Universalist and also have young kids.  Slowly after that time I have grown to love certain aspects of Christmas.  Like the OP said, what other time of year can you hear songs being played that have such great lyrics?  Also, I know we all talk about being in the spirit nature and not the carnal nature...but we are here on earth and benefit greatly from signs, symbols, and setting aside certain times to focus on something.  It would be nice if we could celebrate every day, but I get easily distracted and bogged down by the world.  Having an anchor to focus on something helps me. 

So during the Christmas season my kids and I read a lot of books about when Jesus was born.  They know Santa is pretend but I did teach them about the real person Saint Nicholas who lived in Greece and gave to others in secret (yes I know there are other pagan connections to Santa Claus).  We watch VeggieTales movies like the Little Drummer Boy (yes I know it is a made up story).  We listen to lots of Christmas music, both Christian and secular.  Just this morning my 5 year old was singing "Mary Did you Know?" While getting ready for school. 

How about these UR lyrics "God rest ye merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, remember Christ our savior was born on Christmas day, to SAVE US ALL from Satan's power when we had gone astray"   (not to save us from hell!)

or:

"Mary did you know, that your baby boy, would SAVE OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS" (not some of them)

or:

Hark the herald angels sing "Glory to the newborn King! Peace on earth and mercy mild God and sinners reconciled" (we are all sinners)

I also love Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel"
"What Child is This" and some others. 

I think Jesus's birth, while not explicitly commanded to celebrate, and of course did not occur on Dec 25, is still important to remember, because without his birth he would have never taught us on earth, walked among us, and died to show his love, and then was resurrected.  I think his teachings and how he lived on this earth are important to remember, and it would have never happened had he not been born, had Mary and Joseph not said "yes" to God. 

The one aspect of Christmas is that troubles me is that my parents and in-laws buy them too much, despite each year me telling them to get them one small gift.  But even that is a lesson to my kids, as we talk about WHY they get gifts (because people love them and want to show their love to them, not because Santa brings gifts to "good kids." And we talk about gratitude and giving to others to show love).  My oldest is easily overstimulated and so the abundance of gifts and visiting family and eating treats gets to him every year, and I have to try to figure out how to combat that.  To say that celebrating with family is easier than loving your enemies---sometimes family is your enemy!  My brother wouldn't talk to me for about 2 years, and what finally brought us back together was Christmas.  And now we are back to being close and loving.  My husband's family is loving but we have issues there as well, such as a cousin who is aggressive toward my kids, and other things we don't see eye to eye on.  To make an effort to spend time with and love family is WORK and not always easy. 

Anyway I know this topic comes up every year, but I wanted to give my two cents and share my experience.

:goodpost:

"Mary did you know, that your baby boy, would SAVE OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS" (not some of them)

Also, I can almost here a Calvinist retort that Christ will only save the Elect Sons and Daughters, and not all of them, to this quote

[Eleutheros]

Hi everyone,
I know this is a little old now but I wanted to reply and never got the chance.

Good Day!

Nah, it's not to old now, just look how long it took for me to get back to this topic!

I was raised to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, but also received lots of presents that day. 

Then as a young adult I was more agnostic but still celebrated Christmas with family...then had a born again/spiritual experience and began reading the bible, praying a lot etc...and still celebrated.  Then my cousin, who also became "born again" but had the influence of a pastor at a very small church that he founded, began to tell me that Christmas was pagan, not Jesus's birthday etc.  I looked into it all, and much of that is true...so I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate. 

I liked how you stated your dilemma: "I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate."

For this statement I perceive it likely that there was no natural inclination in you to dislike what Christmas has become, despite the knowledge you gained of the origins of its symbols and celebrations.

You see, the meanings in symbols often change through a culture's use of that symbol, sometimes it's a good change, sometimes not.

For example, Leonard Nimoy's procurement of the hand symbol for the Hebrew letter Shin that was used by the rabbi to bless the congregation in the name of God. Nimoy's use of this symbol, through his popular character Mr. Spock, made it into a more universal blessing: "Live long and prosper!" Likewise the Nazi's procurement of the Hindu swastika as a symbol for Fascism.

So, in this age, while you might be inclined to whimsically speak the Vulcan blessing with the four fingers of you're left hand split down the middle and your thumb angled out from your hand, you are most likely never going to display a swastika, despite the universally good symbolism it had before the Nazi's claimed it as their own.

Therefore it's in the claiming of a symbol by a group or individual with influence over a culture that a symbol's meaning begins to change: the more well-known the claimant the more universal the change.

Thus it is the same with the symbols of Christmas. They were claimed from paganism during the formation of the Christian religion and so, because of Christianity's influence, the meanings given them then are now the meanings they universally carry.

And those meanings are largely centered on Jesus Christ, the savior of all mankind.

Thus I perceive in the conundrum of the celebration of Christmas by a knowledgeable Christian the echos of Paul's words to the Corinthians:

With reference to food that has been offered in sacrifice to idols-We are aware that all of us have knowledge! Knowledge breeds conceit, while love builds up character. If a man thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet reached that knowledge which he ought to have reached. On the other hand, if a man loves God, he is known by God. (1Co 8:1-3 Twentieth Century New Testament)

I continued to celebrate with family but was unsure, and felt that maybe I was violating something and that God would be displeased with me for celebrating.  So I just did it for family at that time but felt an icky feeling.

Sounds like religion to me!

I felt that icky feeling, too, when I was in Messianic Judaism. But as time went on and I got to know better the character of these religious folk the more I realized that pride, not love, was the driving force behind the desire of many to keep the Sabbaths. The same kind of pride I saw in the Calvinist denominations I grew up with: the pride of exclusivity, what I call the pride of the country club membership, and the pride of enlightenment - "We know that we are the one's chosen by God for heaven."
The sound of that pride in Messianic Judaism went something like this: "It's not that we have to celebrate the Festivals, it's that we get to celebrate them!" With the unspoken caveat being that it's because we are enlightened that we celebrate the Festivals!

Soon I came to recognize that the icky feeling was false guilt, the guilt felt from not meeting the demands of my religion, rather than truthful guilt, the kind of guilt I feel when I violate my conscience.

Thus, for perceiving the inimical effect of religion on human nature that turns the heart from contemplating the love of God that leads to joy into the guilt that comes from the fear of displeasing Jehovah, or worse, the pride that comes from a feeling of enlightenment, I feel no more guilt in celebrating Christmas, despite it's questionable origins, than I would using an Apple Computer despite the question of it's logo's origins.

Then I became Christian Universalist and also have young kids.  Slowly after that time I have grown to love certain aspects of Christmas.  Like the OP said, what other time of year can you hear songs being played that have such great lyrics?  Also, I know we all talk about being in the spirit nature and not the carnal nature...but we are here on earth and benefit greatly from signs, symbols, and setting aside certain times to focus on something.  It would be nice if we could celebrate every day, but I get easily distracted and bogged down by the world. Having an anchor to focus on something helps me.

Well said. Christmas is a yearly shot-in-the-arm for me of deeply felt and memorable joy from contemplating the awesomeness of God making Himself into a human being, just like me, subject to everything I deal with, that He might redeem Mankind... and especially of my own encounter with that very redemption.

So during the Christmas season my kids and I read a lot of books about when Jesus was born.  They know Santa is pretend but I did teach them about the real person Saint Nicholas who lived in Greece and gave to others in secret (yes I know there are other pagan connections to Santa Claus).  We watch VeggieTales movies like the Little Drummer Boy (yes I know it is a made up story).  We listen to lots of Christmas music, both Christian and secular. Just this morning my 5 year old was singing "Mary Did you Know?" While getting ready for school....

Gotta smile at that one because I sing that song to myself often, even when last Christmas is but a memory; it's quite poignant.

The one aspect of Christmas is that troubles me is that my parents and in-laws buy them too much, despite each year me telling them to get them one small gift.  But even that is a lesson to my kids, as we talk about WHY they get gifts (because people love them and want to show their love to them, not because Santa brings gifts to "good kids." And we talk about gratitude and giving to others to show love).  My oldest is easily overstimulated and so the abundance of gifts and visiting family and eating treats gets to him every year, and I have to try to figure out how to combat that.  To say that celebrating with family is easier than loving your enemies---sometimes family is your enemy!  My brother wouldn't talk to me for about 2 years, and what finally brought us back together was Christmas.  And now we are back to being close and loving.  My husband's family is loving but we have issues there as well, such as a cousin who is aggressive toward my kids, and other things we don't see eye to eye on.  To make an effort to spend time with and love family is WORK and not always easy.

Funny thing but I had a conversation with my 28 year old son a day ago about our holidays and he said he looked forward to celebrating them with us; meaning, for my divorcing myself from his mother, he and his siblings (my 27 year old daughter and my 26 year old son) still look forward to the time they spend with her and with my wife and me during the holidays.

That's quite an accomplishment! And it was because of the work my ex and I put into neutralizing the animosity between us, for their sake.

What I did was to create our own holiday traditions with them, apart from extended family, even as you mentioned you were doing.

That also meant that we began keeping that time to ourselves, despite protests from the extended family. Not every year did I keep the day just for us, but most, beginning with the holiday after the divorce.

Thus, after the brouhaha of the first year, extended family seemed more appreciative of our time together and it showed in the things they said and did, and most notably in the things they quit saying.

Perhaps you and hubby might consider a Christmas just for yourselves and your children a few times, apart from extended family, because Christmas makes memories that last a lifetime. Thus, if your children can say to you one day that they look forward to spending the holidays with you and you know they mean it, you can know that you and hubby learned the lessons of love well because of the unique chance Christmas gives us to show that love, even as you said it did concerning your brother. May the Spirit of Christmas be in you, forever.

And be good! It is, after all, what you were created to be!

[Eleutheros]

Thanks for your responses Eleutheros, they are very insightful and heartwarming. I hope God blesses you and your family as well.

As for Christmas music? Well, honestly, I don't really listen to any of that stuff. I usually find it a bit boring for my tastes (Though, I find that a bit ironic for some types of music I like to listen to...)

But, since you asked, here are 3 of my favorite songs I listen to. You guys are from a bit of an older generation, so I do not think they will be appreciated by you as much as me. But, no harm in suggestions, right?

Drop - Heron - Album You are here now
Por La Noche - Photos From Nadira - Album Nadira
Souls in the Sky - David Helpling - Album A Sea without Memory

I recommend you try listening to these on Spotify(If you know what that is, of course. It is basically an online streaming service where you can listen to music online.)

Blessings  :dsunny:

ML

Hey, ML!

Thanks for the heads up on the three groups you listed. I listened to them on youtube over the holidays and because I appreciate instrumental music I found myself reminiscing on Tangerine Dream and early Pink Floyd (the stuff well before Dark Side of the Moon); great headphone music. I particularly liked Heron.

So, ever hear of Isao Tomita? Or Synergy (Larry Fast)? Or Mike Oldfield? (There's three from me!)

And, yes, ML, I know what Spotify is! (Gotta smile at that one!).

I have three children that are now adults (and Boy Howdy! Do I like having adults for children!) and they are always introducing me to new stuff like Woven Hand and Maximum The Hormone.

So, as to the so-called generational difference in music preferences.... Well, Roger Daltry said it best, "Rock is dead, they say. Long live rock!"

Funny story: My oldest son comes home from school one day, about 2006, all excited. "Dad! Dad! Ever hear of a song called Hocus Pocus?"
"Yes." I replied. "It's by Focus, a Dutch band from the early Seventies that introduced yodeling to rock."
After his surprise that I knew this strange moldy oldy, I qued it up in my digital library and we both air jammed and yodeled our way into a laughing fit; it is quite a silly piece after all.

I hope you're sharing your music with your folks and they with you. It helps make some really good family stuff happen.

Be blessed and be good!

[jugghead]

Thanks for your responses Eleutheros, they are very insightful and heartwarming. I hope God blesses you and your family as well.

As for Christmas music? Well, honestly, I don't really listen to any of that stuff. I usually find it a bit boring for my tastes (Though, I find that a bit ironic for some types of music I like to listen to...)

But, since you asked, here are 3 of my favorite songs I listen to. You guys are from a bit of an older generation, so I do not think they will be appreciated by you as much as me. But, no harm in suggestions, right?

Drop - Heron - Album You are here now
Por La Noche - Photos From Nadira - Album Nadira
Souls in the Sky - David Helpling - Album A Sea without Memory

I recommend you try listening to these on Spotify(If you know what that is, of course. It is basically an online streaming service where you can listen to music online.)

Blessings  :dsunny:

ML

Hey, ML!

Thanks for the heads up on the three groups you listed. I listened to them on youtube over the holidays and because I appreciate instrumental music I found myself reminiscing on Tangerine Dream and early Pink Floyd (the stuff well before Dark Side of the Moon); great headphone music. I particularly liked Heron.

So, ever hear of Isao Tomita? Or Synergy (Larry Fast)? Or Mike Oldfield? (There's three from me!)

And, yes, ML, I know what Spotify is! (Gotta smile at that one!).

I have three children that are now adults (and Boy Howdy! Do I like having adults for children!) and they are always introducing me to new stuff like Woven Hand and Maximum The Hormone.

So, as to the so-called generational difference in music preferences.... Well, Roger Daltry said it best, "Rock is dead, they say. Long live rock!"

Funny story: My oldest son comes home from school one day, about 2006, all excited. "Dad! Dad! Ever hear of a song called Hocus Pocus?"
"Yes." I replied. "It's by Focus, a Dutch band from the early Seventies that introduced yodeling to rock."
After his surprise that I knew this strange moldy oldy, I qued it up in my digital library and we both air jammed and yodeled our way into a laughing fit; it is quite a silly piece after all.

I hope you're sharing your music with your folks and they with you. It helps make some really good family stuff happen.

Be blessed and be good!

I had a similar reaction from my son (who is 27) when he said "Dad you got to listen to this new song by Disturbed." He knows what type of music I prefer, it was the song "The Sound of Silence", I said, "yea son, I've heard it, it was done by Simon and Garfunkel back in the 70's" ...... but the one thing I have to say about the version that Disturbed does, I love their version more than the original.

Spotify is online streaming, I thought it was making polka dots in your carpet while walking through your living room sipping your coffee .... I guess I was wrong.

[rosered]

  God knows I love this thread!!   
A  joyful noise unto the Lord !!  :angelharp:

I have thought about the   grace given to cover  all the error  we make when  trying to learn  righteousness and do what pleases God     ,  GOD IS   Spirit    , The freedom of   Living in the Spirit  is everything is covered and God has got this  taken care of before we even knew it ...

Being on the receiving end  of Gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT   WOW!!!  :HeartThrob:  Best we can do is share  them  with one another right !

Gods gifts of the  good and perfect  for His children  ...  James 1 Good and Perfect Gifts


...16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.


17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.


18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation....

  I have considered our lives  like seasons , in the natural [good & evil , and to choose the good ]   and the rebirth/new birth  of the Spiritual   [perfect comes ]  thought the Word of truth or the Lord Jesus Christ  .


  Just as tender buds   in the spring  , being watered and  cared for  creates a  flower   that blooms in the summer  , that  can begin  to bear fruit  in the  autumn  of life   to harvest  for the times to come ,

   Only  to  experience the winter   as a dormant   condition that waits for  change and a new start all over again in the spring     ...   

The winter of our hope   as we eat the  harvested  first fruits   to get though   the winter and in rest , the promise of Gods making all things new  once again , this cycle of life     and its portions DO  prove Gods love for His creation and our thankful hearts  this time of year that  keep the   songs of praise to a glorious Creator and    to enjoy the fruits   from the laborers of  love   have provided  in season !!

So many scriptures testify to this truth it seems !!

Pray that our flight not be in the winter  or Sabbath rest is to leave behind us  what God has provided to sustain us  and keep us  in His peace ,  because of the tribulation in the world   it seems to me , but though this suffering does the sons of God  come and are birthed  though   to Gods glory and our praise  to Him for this     miracle of Life , the first fruit of harvest was His only begotten    Son [first fruits of the increase of Gods grace upon His creation ]   ....Showing us Life by   His LOVE ..

God answers prayers[communion ]  by His   great grace upon us ...... :HeartThrob: