Season's Greetings Fellow Universaltsts!
I've been drawn into a study of Christmas this year. Sure, I've studied the storied history of Christmas before, most especially while I was in Messianic Judaism, when I celebrated Hanukkah. In that ecclesia the celebration of Christmas was considered akin to apostasy because of the pagan and commercial roots of the traditions that are linked to our modern understanding of Christmas; the same for Easter. But now, for being Eleutheros, I choose to celebrate Christmas in all its glory and history.
This season started for me, as it has for the last fifteen years or so, by first watching
A Charlie Brown Christmas sometime after Thanksgiving and weeping my personal tears of joy from the hope within me as I revisit Linus Van Pelt's soliloquy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeVDOu2_Fuc) (Luke 2:1-16) delivered in the enduring prose of the KJV.
My heart was now ready to celebrate Christmas in our home.
But, after that expected feeling, something unexpectedly emotional happened as I was finishing a final Fall semester project.
My wife had just cleaned our home and decorated it with the cool Christmas decorations she'd gathered over the years; and so, as I worked on my project, I had playing in the background our large and eclectic collection of Christmas music. Then, amidst the original blues and folk and pop and rock songs of Christmas, and the varied versions of the classical and the sacred and traditional songs of the Birth of Jesus and of Santa Claus and that famous reindeer of his, Sarah Brightman's version of Amazing Grace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0phTQWv9DNI) cued up. I stopped to listen. And as I listened, I began crying.
The words (http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/Amazing_Grace/) to John Newton's (http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/people/pastorsandpreachers/john-newton.html)superlative hymn seemed to be speaking to me differently than I'd heard before. I recognized that the emotions I was feeling were like that time - long ago - when I truly repented and allowed the Spirit of Jesus into me; that time, long ago, when I truly accepted Jesus as both my Lord and Savior.
"Why now?" I asked myself. "Why, my soul, are you feeling these emotions of humility and of awe mingled with gratefulness and regret? Why, my soul, are you crying?"
Its answer to me was simple. "Because you need to feel these things. They help you remember from where you came, and who you are now, and of the future your God promised to you and all of your fellow humans in the Words of Christmas."
With that satisfying answer, I felt compelled to revisit the history of Christmas, its origins and traditions, to discover why, at Christmas time, I feel these emotions more keenly than any other time of year.
As I read through the words of others, words that were both for and against Christmas, I reflected on how different the thoughts in my heart are, now, from what they were before when I celebrated Christmas as a Southern Baptist in good standing, raised on Calvinism, then later refused to celebrate it for following Judaism.
For now, in my heart, the difference is that I know that Jesus Christ will bring to fruition exactly what the angel foretold when he said:
"Fear not! For, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy,
which shall be to all people; for unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord! And this shall be a sign unto you; you shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger."
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, "Glory to God in the highest! And on earth peace, good will toward mankind!"
~
Now, fellow Universalists, I observe that Universalisim is not an organized religion, nor is it a denomination. Instead it is unique in that it seems to resist such large-scale organization exactly because it is not a religion! It is, instead, a loose collection of people who have come to believe one single truth above all others: that Jesus Christ came to reveal the heart of the Father, in all His Love and Power, and to annul the work of the Adversary and restore all mankind - every last one of all human beings who have lived, are living and will be living.
But, apart from that belief, all are free to think for themselves and conclude what they will concerning scripture. Therefore, Universalism cannot form as a religion, and indeed it would be self-defeating if it tried, because the rules of religion require agreement among the adherents; and besides, rules, and the accompanying fear of consequence, only go so far against the precepts of the human heart that lead us into sin. A regeneration is needed to annul those precepts, and that is all that is needed.
So, my fellow Universalist, given this reflection, it occurred to me that I should post this personal reflection as an invitation to all of you to offer up your own thoughts on Christmas, both for and against.
As a Universalist, what do
you think of Christmas?
Does its amalgam of the profane celebrations that came before it make its celebration an abomination before God, as some have warned against?
(https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/169-ttooc.html)
Does its mix of the sacred and profane make it a confusion that is best avoided?
Or does God appreciate the way our modern celebrations bring to the World's collective mind thoughts on the birth of His only sex-born Son Who came that, through Him, the World might be saved?
What do
you think?
And, as a Universalist, what in your heart is different from where your heart was before you believed the truth hidden in plain sight?
As a Universalist, what do
you do with Christmas?
Quote from: Eleutheros on December 18, 2017, 01:11:24 AM
As a Universalist, what do you do with Christmas?
I know that my own family will be saved and learn at their appointed time.
Paul says in Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people."
Romans 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."
Romans 14;5 " One person regards one day more sacred than another, while another person regards all days the same.
EACH PERSON MUST BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND."
Romans 14;13 " Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another, but resolve this-
never to put an obstacle or a trap in a brother's way."
Romans 14;19 " So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual up-building."
Romans 14;22 " The faith that you have keep as your conviction before God.
Blessed is the one who has no reason to condemn himself for what he approves."
Romans 15;7 " Therefore accept one another as Christ has also accepted you."
This means, for me, that I celebrate with my family, but could just as equally not celebrate.
Either way we know about Christ but each at our own level, even within my own family.
Eleutheros,
Thanks for that interesting story of how you came to where you are now.
And Ross, that list of verses from Romans pretty much answers what to do about Christmas either way.
For me, the last Christmas my family observed was when I was 5 so I had a bias against it after that. When I was married and 27 we went to a church that was like my second family for 18 years and Christmas was not observed there. But there were some things that I did not like about what that did to the attitude of my kids about those that did celebrate. So now my kids are grown and on their own and they all celebrate it however they want with their families. Now I like this time of year because Christmas bring the earth shaking event of Jesus birth out in the open.
Now since I came to see that the whole world is loved by the Father and that He sent the Son to be the savior of the world, I see everyone way more in the same boat than I used to. We are not saved by figuring things out and being correct on bible doctrine like I was raised. That leads to looking down on others for almost everything they believe different than me and making me feel like I'm better than them, yuk. :Ptuwee"
Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people." This means to me don't make a fuss about what others do that I disagree with. We are the ones that look on outward appearance but God looks on the heart.
Quote from: Ross on December 18, 2017, 03:39:02 AM
I know that my own family will be saved and learn at their appointed time.
Paul says in Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people."
Romans 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."
Romans 14;5 " One person regards one day more sacred than another, while another person regards all days the same.
EACH PERSON MUST BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND."
Romans 14;13 " Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another, but resolve this-
never to put an obstacle or a trap in a brother's way."
Romans 14;19 " So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual up-building."
Romans 14;22 " The faith that you have keep as your conviction before God.
Blessed is the one who has no reason to condemn himself for what he approves."
Romans 15;7 " Therefore accept one another as Christ has also accepted you."
This means, for me, that I celebrate with my family, but could just as equally not celebrate.
Either way we know about Christ but each at our own level, even within my own family.
Sometimes, when I list verses, I see connections that I didn't before. So, thanks Ross for listing those verses!
The funny thing about coming to believe that Jesus Christ came to save all men and women is that the stuff (of religion) that I used to agonize over moves out of my focus because I also came to realize that human is not something I was put here to rise above, but something I was put here to become good at being! And those scriptures, listed as they are, help me crystallize my understanding of
how to be that good human being I was created to be!
So, for me, celebrating Christmas is a reminder of that First Noel (https://www.gotquestions.org/Noel-meaning.html) that enabled me to be born anew; a re-birth that led me into being able to enjoy my humanity, freed from sin and thus a condemning conscience, freed from the rules of religion and thus able to live a life of joy, peace and righteousness in holy spirit!
Truly good tidings of great Joy which shall be for all people!
Thanks for your reply, Ross.
I hope you have a great celebration of our Saviors birth with your family.
Quote from: bushy on December 18, 2017, 05:46:19 AM
Eleutheros,
Thanks for that interesting story of how you came to where you are now.
You are welcome. I share from my heart that others might be encouraged to do the same, which you did.
Quote from: bushyFor me, the last Christmas my family observed was when I was 5 so I had a bias against it after that. When I was married and 27 we went to a church that was like my second family for 18 years and Christmas was not observed there. But there were some things that I did not like about what that did to the attitude of my kids about those that did celebrate. So now my kids are grown and on their own and they all celebrate it however they want with their families. Now I like this time of year because Christmas bring the earth shaking event of Jesus birth out in the open.
Now since I came to see that the whole world is loved by the Father and that He sent the Son to be the savior of the world, I see everyone way more in the same boat than I used to. We are not saved by figuring things out and being correct on bible doctrine like I was raised. That leads to looking down on others for almost everything they believe different than me and making me feel like I'm better than them, yuk. :Ptuwee"
LOL! "Yuck!" is right!
I will tell you that "hell" was actually the very last thing I looked into as I re-studied the scriptures after understanding that the Geneva/KJV bibles were translated to support the theology of Augustine of Hippo. It was the last thing I studied because I was fearful that I would find the KJV accurate where "hell" was concerned.
Of course I didn't... but, as I understood how that bias was inculcated, I felt my soul becoming disquieted. When I looked into why I felt that disquiet in the face of the truth I was uncovering, I discovered something truly shocking in my heart: I discovered that I
liked the idea of an eternal hell of conscious, burning torment, forever separated from God...
for as long as I had a way to think myself exempt!And so I perceive now that what you get with
any religion, Christian or not, is a membership in an exclusive club! Which of course - no matter how humble you act, if that's a requirement of your religion - can't help but make one feel superior to others.
Quote from: bushyRomans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people." This means to me don't make a fuss about what others do that I disagree with. We are the ones that look on outward appearance but God looks on the heart.
Yep! And don't you know that
He's the One Who knows who's heart is naughty or nice!
So keep on being good, It is after all what we were created to be!
Thank you for your reply. May your time this year be filled with the joy that comes from within.
Cain decided to worship God in his own way but God didn't accept his offering. Why do we think we should decide how we should worship God? Isn't our works sin?
The Year over year celebration of Christmas is celebration of Jesus coming in the flesh. This mean such celebration brings profit to the flesh. It is an earthly celebration. It is sin.
Everyone is able to "work out their own salvation"..One eats, another abstains. One considers the day, one considers all days the same. And we all have an opinion and/or interpretation - and conscience.
Quote from: jabcat on December 20, 2017, 04:26:48 AM
Everyone is able to "work out their own salvation"..One eats, another abstains. One considers the day, one considers all days the same. And we all have an opinion and/or interpretation - and conscience.
Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17
which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;
Christmas was never an established day decreed by God for observance year after year. Those things that were, are the ones in context for which we shouldn't judge others about such as the 7 feast days. Christmas is a vain celebration that doesn't herald anything heavenly or to come. It's actually a celebration of the FLESH which profits nothing.
I believe if one doesn't feel comfortable celebrating Christmas, that's between them and God. If someone else does (or participating some way for family reasons, etc.), that's between them and God. Their walk, whatever season they are in, their conscience. So perhaps sin for some, not so for others. I don't believe it's an essential doctrine or clearly spelled out as a commandment. We ask that POVs, understandings, and opinions be expressed as such.
I agree with you James [ Jabcat ] 100% Each must seek out their own salvation , the law is a light and mirror and the reflection of the things to come .
The scriptures go on to explain that those whom are weak in faith see everything as sin and so abstain .. and this is not a bad thing .
Seems those whom are made strong in faith , are able to become ,''all things to all men '' even by saving some ,
where ever they are coming from , the Law of Liberty is just that freedom to LOVE in the Spirit despite the flesh ....
This is just my opinion [judgement ] now at this time ..
GOD will judge everything in its time , true conviction is from the Holy Spirit , we can all agree to this fact/truth ,
I do believe ..
The motive of the heart is the true test of what [spirit ] has filled it .
And by Gods grace we are allowed to change our minds from the carnal nature [ adversarial against the Holy Spirit ] to the mind of Christ , which is gracious and full of mercy
maturing spiritual in nature though the experiences of the laws of death and life ,
But even Jesus told James and John when the city rejected Him / the Light , they desired to send fire down from heaven to destroy them all , and the Lord spoke and said , you do not know what manner of spirit you are of ... there was NO MERCY in their judgment/opinion
So we are taught LOVE and that Spirit of LOVE /GOD is what covers the multitude of sin /error , though patience and long suffering with mercy and grace , not the spirit of violence and destruction by the law and ministration of death ..
Even Jesus told us , Till now , His arrival of change , the kingdom of God had suffered through violence till John the Baptist
and we know John the baptist was beheaded for his witness against sin ,[He represents all the law and prophets of the old testament. ,,, that many of us are still under that old shadow law or have like Paul said , pressed on to maturity the LIGHT [perfection , completing this course on taking up their own cross by faith in Christ and His doing the living works of the Father by raising the dead to Life in Christ , as children of the DAY /1000 year reign Jesus is in power and authority ]
but the old tree of knowledge of good and evil , I believe it is a simile a comparison of everyone having to ''loose their heads ''] to put on the mind of Christ to rule over and gather into Himself everything that exist to fulfill all things .
Jesus Christ is the Head and authority over all things ... and the righteousness of God ..
One thing I am learning now is not to judge anything before the time, till the Lord shines HIS Wisdom /Light upon it .
You can only See Jesus in the LIGHT of the gospel and the shadow has since passed of the old , making all things new and When you see Jesus you have also seen the Father ...They are ONE and the same HOLY WORD &SPIRIT ..
The pure in heart shall see God , but it is His Fire and Light that cleanses us from all filth of the flesh for His presence to fill us with .
True freedom is being in the HOLY SPIRIT fully , the flesh profits nothing, but is made for the fire of Gods consuming Spirit of Love .
Luke 24 Jesus Opens the Scriptures
25Then Jesus said to them, "O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken. 26Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
28As they approached the village where they were headed, He seemed to be going farther. 29But they pleaded with Him, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over."
So He went in to stay with them. 30While He was reclining at the table with them, He took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Jesus—and He disappeared from their sight.
32They asked one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us as He spoke with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" 33And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem.
There they found the eleven and those with them, gathered together 34and saying, "The Lord has indeed risen, and He has appeared to Simon!"
35Then the two told what had happened on the road, and how they had recognized Jesus in the breaking of the bread.
IT is the same for us when Jesus opens the scriptures when breaking the bread with one another and our hearts are on fire with the cleansing presence of His Spirit working in us all .
For me , GODS Love can be harsh to the flesh man , but beautiful and fulfilling to the Sprint man within , working both death and Life in us at the same time .. the holy one is renewed and strengthened day by day and the old one is defiantly fading away ... absolving us in Christ authority over the body of sin and error , missing the mark of the higher calling to rise up in the Life of the Holy Spirit and be with Him ......
gerund or present participle: absolving
set or declare (someone) free from blame, guilt, or responsibility.
"the pardon absolved them of any crimes"
synonyms: exonerate, discharge, acquit, vindicate; More
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
give absolution for (a sin). :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
:dsunny:
Hey, trettep!
Quote from: trettep on December 20, 2017, 02:37:55 AM
Cain decided to worship God in his own way but God didn't accept his offering. Why do we think we should decide how we should worship God? Isn't our works sin?
Understood. I once held a similar viewpoint. Now I don't.
Please understand that my change of heart doesn't mean that I think your conviction is less considered than mine. From my understanding of scripture I believe that if your conscience will condemn you for celebrating Christmas, then you will be sinning if you do. So, keep true to your convictions because your conscience, cleansed by the Spirit of Jesus within you, is your guide to know how to be pleasing to your God.
However, given your statement, I'm pretty sure you would feel compelled to consider me a sinner, given my statements. That's okay. Like I said, I understand. My conscience is clear concerning Christmas; for I am aware of the case against Christmas, but do not agree with the arguments used.
Fortunately, agreement is not necessary to understanding.
So, may I ask if there is a group of like-minded souls that you belong to? If so, then what do you and they do together while the Christmas season is underway?
Do you meet together, or do you just let each other alone when the 24th and 25th roll around?
What do
you do about Christmas, trettep?
I am curious, that is all.
Quote from: trettepThe Year over year celebration of Christmas is celebration of Jesus coming in the flesh. This mean such celebration brings profit to the flesh. It is an earthly celebration. It is sin.
The connection you made here here is a bit confusing to me. I'm sorry.
Many celebrate the advent of the Word made flesh during this season, this is true, but how does a celebration of this bring profit to the flesh? Are you referring to the commercial aspect of this holiday? Or are you saying that because it is a season that seems to please the body and mind of many, it must be a sin because pleasure is of the flesh?
If you consider Christmas an earthly celebration, and therefore a sin, may I ask if you feel the same concerning any other human celebration of an earthly event, like Cinco D'Mayo, Independence Day, or even your own birthday, a sin?
I am only asking out of curiosity, So, please know that I thank you for your reply.
Be good, trettep, and if that means you must take a stand in your heart against the celebration of Christmas, well then, be good about it!
Quote from: Eleutheros on December 20, 2017, 07:33:49 PM
Hey, trettep!
Quote from: trettep on December 20, 2017, 02:37:55 AM
Cain decided to worship God in his own way but God didn't accept his offering. Why do we think we should decide how we should worship God? Isn't our works sin?
Understood. I once held a similar viewpoint. Now I don't.
Please understand that my change of heart doesn't mean that I think your conviction is less considered than mine. From my understanding of scripture I believe that if your conscience will condemn you for celebrating Christmas, then you will be sinning if you do. So, keep true to your convictions because your conscience, cleansed by the Spirit of Jesus within you, is your guide to know how to be pleasing to your God.
However, given your statement, I'm pretty sure you would feel compelled to consider me a sinner, given my statements. That's okay. Like I said, I understand. My conscience is clear concerning Christmas; for I am aware of the case against Christmas, but do not agree with the arguments used.
Fortunately, agreement is not necessary to understanding.
So, may I ask if there is a group of like-minded souls that you belong to? If so, then what do you and they do together while the Christmas season is underway?
Do you meet together, or do you just let each other alone when the 24th and 25th roll around?
What do you do about Christmas, trettep?
I am curious, that is all.
Quote from: trettepThe Year over year celebration of Christmas is celebration of Jesus coming in the flesh. This mean such celebration brings profit to the flesh. It is an earthly celebration. It is sin.
The connection you made here here is a bit confusing to me. I'm sorry.
Many celebrate the advent of the Word made flesh during this season, this is true, but how does a celebration of this bring profit to the flesh? Are you referring to the commercial aspect of this holiday? Or are you saying that because it is a season that seems to please the body and mind of many, it must be a sin because pleasure is of the flesh?
If you consider Christmas an earthly celebration, and therefore a sin, may I ask if you feel the same concerning any other human celebration of an earthly event, like Cinco D'Mayo, Independence Day, or even your own birthday, a sin?
I am only asking out of curiosity, So, please know that I thank you for your reply.
Be good, trettep, and if that means you must take a stand in your heart against the celebration of Christmas, well then, be good about it!
Hi Eleutheros, your response is a common one and your questions are logical. I do not belong to any recognized religious organization. I share in the fellowship of God's Spirit.
I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays. I believe that also is a sin. I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again. I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own. I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles. The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself was
beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,
QuoteI do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays. I believe that also is a sin. I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again. I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own. I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles. The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,
I agree the things that are temporary and man made , such a celebrating human existence seems trivial and pointless .
But we do celebrate the Sprint of life EVERYDAY as we remain thankful to HIM ,loving Him always and others as we do ourselves , this would be praying for them to know God as much as you have known Him and know His mercy poured out upon you . loving your enemies as yourselves and trying to keep this hope alive within you by not giving up , hoping this for everyone to have it , Love is connection ,communication , loving one another as He loves us and gave Himself for us all , no respecter of persons whatsoever ...
AND the Spirit knows all things trettep and the Spirit convicts the world of sin , which is a beautiful thing!!!
By pricking our conscious , because we have become spiritually aware of the LIVING GOD , Now we believe in the LIVING GOD because His Holy Spirit is teaching us so , His children and chastising us and comforting us little ones to Him belong , with new eyes to see and new ears to hear and heart to understand what the Spirit is conveying to us ,,.
John 16 The Promise of the Holy Spirit
(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)
5Now, however, I am going to Him who sent Me; yet none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
6Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things.
7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8And when He comes, He will convict the world
in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; [ If they do believe HIM it is said , they hear His voice they will live ]
10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;[the righteousness of God is for Jesus to be with His Father as ONE and not separated , the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE ARE ONE AND THE SAME , GOD HIMSELF
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned.[ JESUS come to destroy the works of the devil] we consider one of the huge lies it is being the fear of death , but the WORD OF LIFE SAYS , though he be dead , he shall live and if He lives he will never die , do you believe Me ! this truth Because HE IS GODS WORD OF LIFE , "I am the resurrection and the life;
1
2I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.13
However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15
Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.
16In a little while you will see Me no longer,
and then after a little while you will see Me." How does one ''see'' the Word and Sprint of Life in them as well as others ? , For me this is the question of the hour .. :HeartThrob: and as it is written , LOVE / GOD never fails ....
Quote from: trettep on December 20, 2017, 09:38:09 PM
Hi Eleutheros, your response is a common one and your questions are logical.
Hey, trettep!
I thank you for noting that.
Quote from: trettepI do not belong to any recognized religious organization. I share in the fellowship of God's Spirit.
I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays. I believe that also is a sin. I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again. I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own. I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles. The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,
Please know that I understand the logic in your point of view and that I respect your conclusions and that I thank you for this reply from your heart.
None of us can help it, really, but to speak from our hearts, and so I knew, when I started this thread, that I would learn how some of the varied individuals who willingly call themselves Universalists deal with Christmas; for to be a Universalist is to have studied scripture, and history, and drawn the conclusion, from a proper translation of their words, that the first century writers believed Jesus Christ would redeem all of humanity.
I think you know that you and I would not find agreement if we were to dialogue concerning the celebration of Christmas, so I'll just offer you my prayer that, through your convictions, you find that you are actualizing in your heart the fruit of the Spirit that is found in all goodness and righteousness and truth
(Eph. 5:9).
Be good!
Quote from: rosered on December 21, 2017, 01:52:09 PM
QuoteI do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays. I believe that also is a sin. I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again. I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own. I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles. The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,
I agree the things that are temporary and man made , such a celebrating human existence seems trivial and pointless .
But we do celebrate the Sprint of life EVERYDAY as we remain thankful to HIM ,loving Him always and others as we do ourselves , this would be praying for them to know God as much as you have known Him and know His mercy poured out upon you . loving your enemies as yourselves and trying to keep this hope alive within you by not giving up , hoping this for everyone to have it , Love is connection ,communication , loving one another as He loves us and gave Himself for us all , no respecter of persons whatsoever ...
AND the Spirit knows all things trettep and the Spirit convicts the world of sin , which is a beautiful thing!!!
By pricking our conscious , because we have become spiritually aware of the LIVING GOD , Now we believe in the LIVING GOD because His Holy Spirit is teaching us so , His children and chastising us and comforting us little ones to Him belong , with new eyes to see and new ears to hear and heart to understand what the Spirit is conveying to us ,,.
John 16 The Promise of the Holy Spirit
(Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; Acts 2:1-13; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)
5Now, however, I am going to Him who sent Me; yet none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
6Instead, your hearts are filled with sorrow because I have told you these things.
7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; [ If they do believe HIM it is said , they hear His voice they will live ]
10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me;[the righteousness of God is for Jesus to be with His Father as ONE and not separated , the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE ARE ONE AND THE SAME , GOD HIMSELF
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned.[ JESUS come to destroy the works of the devil] we consider one of the huge lies it is being the fear of death , but the WORD OF LIFE SAYS , though he be dead , he shall live and if He lives he will never die , do you believe Me ! this truth Because HE IS GODS WORD OF LIFE , "I am the resurrection and the life;
12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.
13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.
For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.
16In a little while you will see Me no longer, and then after a little while you will see Me."
How does one "see" the Word and Sprint of Life in them as well as others ? , For me this is the question of the hour .. :HeartThrob: and as it is written , LOVE / GOD never fails ....
Thank you for the verses and comments. I do have celebrations in the things of the Spirit. I do celebrate the feast days from the perspective of understanding their Spiritual meaning and WATCHING as those feast days foretell so as to be one that has heard the Father. If one is not a WATCHER, they are not hearing the Father in Heaven. And if they are hearing Him they would realize the significance of this Feasts. Not from earthly observations but for their Spiritual significance. They will quickly understand that Christmas has no place in that realm.
Quote from: Eleutheros on December 21, 2017, 05:27:48 PM
Quote from: trettep on December 20, 2017, 09:38:09 PM
Hi Eleutheros, your response is a common one and your questions are logical.
Hey, trettep!
I thank you for noting that.
Quote from: trettepI do not belong to any recognized religious organization. I share in the fellowship of God's Spirit.
I do not celebrate Birthdays, anniversary's or holidays. I pretty much am at liberty in all things. I have children but don't celebrate their birthdays. I believe that also is a sin. I believe Christ comes to everyone's flesh in due time and not just the physical body that God gave His Son in 3 BC. I also believe that Christ had no beginning. Likewise, I believe those that celebrate Birthdays' that claim to be born again show their hypocrisy when they don't also celebrate the day they claim to have been born again. I trust Jesus when He says that the Flesh profits nothing. I don't believe He was excluding His own. I also believe that His Birthday in 3 BC will be a part of an age that will be dissolved at His second coming in just a few years from now and to me such observance is looking back and not forward and certainly not set on that which is Heavenly or above. There is no mention of His Birthday ever being celebrated in the Bible or evidenced by His Apostles. The Dating of His birthdate is clearly flawed as we know that He was baptized on His birthdate which would not be in December.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,
Please know that I understand the logic in your point of view and that I respect your conclusions and that I thank you for this reply from your heart.
None of us can help it, really, but to speak from our hearts, and so I knew, when I started this thread, that I would learn how some of the varied individuals who willingly call themselves Universalists deal with Christmas; for to be a Universalist is to have studied scripture, and history, and drawn the conclusion, from a proper translation of their words, that the first century writers believed Jesus Christ would redeem all of humanity.
I think you know that you and I would not find agreement if we were to dialogue concerning the celebration of Christmas, so I'll just offer you my prayer that, through your convictions, you find that you are actualizing in your heart the fruit of the Spirit that is found in all goodness and righteousness and truth (Eph. 5:9).
Be good!
Hi Eleutheros, I know we may disagree but that is not a reason to not discuss. Through a very lengthy discussion with a very patient and thoughtful, rational and logical person, I came through many days of mental tribulation to arrive at an embrace of Universal Salvation. I believe it is a sin to debate in illogical and irrational manner and such discussions should be avoided. So I don't want you to think that I see your comments in that manner or to think that I do not desire to discuss the subject further, for I actually do. So please know that I welcome the questions.
QuoteThank you for the verses and comments. I do have celebrations in the things of the Spirit. I do celebrate the feast days from the perspective of understanding their Spiritual meaning and WATCHING as those feast days foretell so as to be one that has heard the Father. If one is not a WATCHER, they are not hearing the Father in Heaven. And if they are hearing Him they would realize the significance of this Feasts. Not from earthly observations but for their Spiritual significance. They will quickly understand that Christmas has no place in that realm.
Amen and Thank you trettep !! :dsunny:
In the Love of God bless you and yours .. :HeartThrob:
I like those replies trettep :thumbsup:
rose, eleuthros (and all interested in the topic), I'll add my 2 cents from personal perspective. :)
I used to do the whole "this is Jesus' birthday" thing when the kids were smaller and I was an ET'er, trying to "maintain" a spiritual component to what was really a chance to get the kids some neat new toys we could play with together. :laugh:
After believing in UR and seeing several things more unconventionally than before, I began to take a harder line on Christmas; that it's pagan etc., and all the reasons I shouldn't participate. After acting like a horse's behind a few times to my dear, sweet wife - one of the kindest-hearted people I've ever been blessed to know - but who was ET at the time and loved Christmas, I realized I'd made an idiot of myself. Longer story short, I now don't really "celebrate Christmas" (or "Easter/Ishtar" etc.) for the days themselves, I personally don't like them and consider in my heart pretty much every day as another.
However, I do buy gifts for my family, spend time together with them, have a meal, etc. Don't really like Christmas trees, but my dear wife loves them, so she puts one up and I don't say a word. Maybe even hang an ornament or two. Don't mind singing a beautiful "Christmas" hymn now and then. She knows it's basically not "my thing", but I also know that even though I can be a massive knucklehead, I need to treat her as kindly and gently as I can, as well as the rest of my family. If it arises, I may share "true meanings" of things (as I understand them), but yet not make some legalistic big deal out of it, especially to the point of causing strife or dissension - or worse, hurt - within my family. As I've said, I believe these things are a matter of conscience - to each! - not essentials of the faith (or to UR!), so perhaps a feeble attempt to major on majors (Jesus, crucified, risen again, Savior of the world) and minor on the minors (what day people decide to be happier on) :).
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2017, 09:20:06 PM
I like those replies trettep :thumbsup:
rose, eleuthros (and all interested in the topic), I'll add my 2 cents from personal perspective. :)
I used to do the whole "this is Jesus' birthday" thing when the kids were smaller and I was an ET'er, trying to "maintain" a spiritual component to what was really a chance to get the kids some neat new toys we could play with together. :laugh:
After believing in UR and seeing several things more unconventionally than before, I began to take a harder line on Christmas; that it's pagan etc., and all the reasons I shouldn't participate. After acting like a horse's behind a few times to my dear, sweet wife - one of the kindest-hearted people I've ever been blessed to know - but who was ET at the time and loved Christmas, I realized I'd made an idiot of myself. Longer story short, I now don't really "celebrate Christmas" (or "Easter/Ishtar" etc.) for the days themselves, I personally don't like them and consider in my heart pretty much every day as another.
However, I do buy gifts for my family, spend time together with them, have a meal, etc. Don't really like Christmas trees, but my dear wife loves them, so she puts one up and I don't say a word. Maybe even hang an ornament or two. Don't mind singing a beautiful "Christmas" hymn now and then. She knows it's basically not "my thing", but I also know that even though I can be a massive knucklehead, I need to treat her as kindly and gently as I can, as well as the rest of my family. If it arises, I may share "true meanings" of things (as I understand them), but yet not make some legalistic big deal out of it, especially to the point of causing strife or dissension - or worse, hurt - within my family. As I've said, I believe these things are a matter of conscience - to each! - not essentials of the faith (or to UR!), so perhaps a feeble attempt to major on majors (Jesus, crucified, risen again, Savior of the world) and minor on the minors (what day people decide to be happier on) :).
Hi Jabcat, my wife also observes Christmas. She has a small tree in our living room. God has not blessed me with persuading her to give up Christmas observance.
I love it all you fellas !!!!!!!!!!!, you are tenderhearted towards one another and having peace within your house !! , it was my hubby that persuaded me to , keep the faith , in other words :laugh: I am very much against pagan holidays .
As you all have shared also, my heart is not in it , but in pleasing the Lord ....
If you can see the Lord God stooping down to touch us in ways that only HE can , it should not be hard to for any one of us , whom do not appreciate the commercializing and profiting on the name of God for a $$ sign ..
but too love anyone ,where ever they are at, or coming from , to fellowship with one another in the same Love of GOD despite the flesh ...
I was thinking how we can become all things to all men , that is reaching the same level of loving them all without offense.
Jesus loved[loves ] the sinners and dwelt among them , serving them all , whomsoever will as it is written and HE IS THE HOLY ONE OF ALL !
Wow , made me think big time , just how much grace has been given over the eons already !
I too esteem every day alike in the sense of this, HIS story the greatest one of all ......
His Life is a precious thing to be handled with much care ....
For me , it is the little ones that bless us the most ....Whom melts our hearts like nothing else , the smiles the hugs and unconditional love and the joy it brings by coming together in the Love of God ..
It is just a day we can do it in , that everyone is off work because this world observes it ...So we take advantage of the ability to see those whom we never see much , because the world is spinning off its top every day it seems , going ninety miles an hour ... :laughing7:
God knows our hearts and that is a wonderful thing to trust in as well . :HeartThrob:
For me, Christmas is not a one time event of the year, just like baptism is not a one time event in a persons life, or communion a monthly or yearly event ...... I view it as a lifestyle, not an event
How can I not celebrate the birth of "the means by which I was freed from sin", to me every day is Christmas because that is what I rejoice in, that is what I celebrate.
Christmas = Christ M.A.S. = Christ Makes All Saints ..... and that is this Universalists :2c:
When I was younger, on Christmas morning, me and my sister would wake up to a tree surrounded with a plethora of presents. At a young age, honestly the main thing I cared about was how much stuff I was given. My parents took pictures, but I would try to rush it to find out all that we had gotten. Lately, after maturing more, I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you, out of love. I think many of us have idolized others who love us, who only do nice to get back, or to take of advantage of others for personal pleasure.
Now, at 19 years old, I am about to celebrate another Christmas with my family. I still am not sure if this is something I will do if I had a wife and children, but whoever we are, we should always walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, truth will be revealed, in Love. :Pray:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 23, 2017, 12:30:49 AM
I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you
It's even more than that. It's mainly about Christ. The greatest gift of all.
Quote from: JamesH on December 23, 2017, 07:41:41 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 23, 2017, 12:30:49 AM
I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you
It's even more than that. It's mainly about Christ. The greatest gift of all.
Whoops, I forgot to write down that part. I was thinking of that as well, but just remembered after I had posted. Thanks for the reminder though.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 23, 2017, 12:30:49 AM
I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you
Amen! It's a great time and opportunity to show our deep love and appreciation for the people around us and in our life.. I often think how that is one of the elements of it all I would just hate to see fall to the wayside.. There's not enough of it in life already what with all of us having to engage in the rat race, in one degree of another, of man's world..
:Peace2: :hiya:
This time of Christ-mass observance every year is a great time to reveal to those around us - CU.
The angels when they visited the shepherds the night of Jesus' birth (whatever time of year or day it was on, evening) .. they said - But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people (That great word "all" that goes so missed by so many.)
The word "all" is from #G3956. pas ► all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole
Would it be "good" news to some (actually most) if the news was they would suffer eternal torment? How is this thought to be "good news"?! [ :laughing7: jus sayin' :Peace2: ]
P.S. - I often will get asked to say blessing at our annual family get together Christmas meal.. if so this year, I will surely be pointing out this verse, especially the "great news to all"
Quote from: trettep on December 21, 2017, 05:51:02 PM
Hi Eleutheros, I know we may disagree but that is not a reason to not discuss. Through a very lengthy discussion with a very patient and thoughtful, rational and logical person, I came through many days of mental tribulation to arrive at an embrace of Universal Salvation. I believe it is a sin to debate in illogical and irrational manner and such discussions should be avoided. So I don't want you to think that I see your comments in that manner or to think that I do not desire to discuss the subject further, for I actually do. So please know that I welcome the questions.
Ahh! Well said, trettep!
I, too, love questions! Unfortunately, for this conversation, I don't have any because I, too, have researched the history of Christmas and the arguments from scripture offered to counter it's celebration and understand why a modern believer might choose, for conscience sake, not to celebrate this mish-mashed holiday.
Especially if they've studied the Seven Festivals of Jehovah, which I have.
I think, then, that there would be few arguments I haven't already considered. Did you see the link I offered in my initial post to a succinct article that offers those arguments?
However, I will offer this to you for why I chose to celebrate Christmas - It's
because the world at large does!
rosered (you beautiful soul, you) wrote this:
Quote from: roseredFor me , it is the little ones that bless us the most ....Whom melts our hearts like nothing else , the smiles the hugs and unconditional love and the joy it brings by coming together in the Love of God ..
It is just a day we can do it in , that everyone is off work because this world observes it ...So we take advantage of the ability to see those whom we never see much , because the world is spinning off its top every day it seems , going ninety miles an hour ... :laughing7:
God knows our hearts and that is a wonderful thing to trust in as well . :HeartThrob:
Christmas is a time when so very many hear the Gospel again, just like they did last year, and the year before. It's a time when an appeal is made to the good within us; a time when so very many willingly stop to contemplate the meaning behind the birth of The Savior of the World.
And it's a time when families seek each other out because of love.
As the Christmas hymn reminds us:
Truly He taught us to love one another
His Law is Love and His Gospel is Peace
Chains shall He break for the slave is our brother
And in His Name all oppression shall cease.
Wow. Those are
good words!
(Phil. 4:8)And I love hearing them, and many like them, again and again and again!
And didn't you find yourself reading those words to the music? I'll bet you did, because the world
knows this hymn, and many more like it.
Such is the power of Christmas; and I think that is the coolest thing.
In the Old Covenant, we learn that Jehovah ordained that the Hebrews were to keep the Festivals, especially Passover, on a yearly basis, as a memorial to remind them that Jehovah had set them free!
And so, despite the pagan roots of the holiday and its commercialization and the fact that there was no way Jesus could have been born during this time of year (He was likely born during the Feast of Tabernacles, Sukkot, which takes place in our October, just so you know that I know), somehow all of that other stuff has been transformed into a time when the world remembers the birth of the One Who will set them free, just as it was promised
when the angels sang, in their angel style, how all of our hopes had come down to this Child!He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes
the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of His love...
(Did I get you singing again?)
A Charlie Brown Christmas is so very popular, not just because of the cool music - that came later - but because of Linus's soliloquy; it was from that few minutes when Linus quotes the Bible that this hastily animated TV production became so endearing. The world took note that, "That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown." And they remind themselves of it every year as copies of it sell in the multi-thousands, annually. And the soundtrack, too.
Recently in our history, another "tradition" was started that centers around celebrating the birth of Jesus: The music and stories of Trans-Siberian Orchestra.
And, of course, there is that most enduring story of...
redemption (the best one ever penned, apart from my own),
A Christmas Carol, which reminds us all that there is yet hope for ourselves, if we will keep the Spirit of Christmas alive within us because, as Dickens noted, Christmas cannot be separated from its sacred name and origin:
Quote from: Fred, Scrooge's Nephew (Stave I) "But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round—apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that—as a good time; a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time; the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"
And so it seems that, for as long as this age must endure, we'll have before us a time set aside
by the world to remember the birth of Our Savior, despite the pagan roots of the earmarks of the holiday, which, for all the facts concerning their origins, have been purged of their original meanings.
Will Christmas be celebrated in the age to come, when Jehovah, as promised, is All and in All?
(I Cor 15:28)Not likely. But then neither is it likely that the Festivals will be celebrated either because they will have all been fulfilled; for won't We be dwelling within the very fulfillment of Sukkot?
"And so, as Tiny Tim observed, 'God Bless us, Everyone!'"
"Hark!" The Herald Angels sing, "Glory to the newborn King!"
Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.
And that's why I choose to celebrate Christmas!
Quote from: marie glen on December 23, 2017, 06:51:53 PM
This time of Christ-mass observance every year is a great time to reveal to those around us - CU.
The angels when they visited the shepherds the night of Jesus' birth (whatever time of year or day it was on, evening) .. they said - But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people (That great word "all" that goes so missed by so many.)
The word "all" is from #G3956. pas ► all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole
Would it be "good" news to some (actually most) if the news was they would suffer eternal torment? How is this thought to be "good news"?! [ :laughing7: jus sayin' :Peace2: ]
P.S. - I often will get asked to say blessing at our annual family get together Christmas meal.. if so this year, I will surely be pointing out this verse, especially the "great news to all"
Ha! Well done mg!
It's for exactly things like that I call Universalisim the truth hidden in plain sight!
As with so much to do with scripture, I've discovered that the understanding has to come first, before its possible to understand scripture!
I remember reading an article wherein Jewish believers in Y'shua reported that they could not see, before their conversion, how Isaiah 53 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/MultiVerse.cfm?s=0000mx) was fulfilled by their Savior (https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v02-n05/the-rabbis-dilemma-a-look-at-isaiah-53/). Indeed, modern era Jewish commentaries go out of their way to explain why it does
not (https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/) apply to that carpenter's Son!
To the point concerning your post, I discovered something unsurprising, but nonetheless extraordinary: many post-KJV translators of Luke 2:14 (https://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/2-14-compare.html) re-translated a
single word with a prepositional phrase (http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/prepositionalphrase.htm) that includes the preposition (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3326&t=KJV) itself, two pronouns (one (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3739&t=KJV), two (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G846&t=KJV)) and a verb (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2076&t=KJV) that are simply not in the words the angel chorus sang!
In other words, the words these translators
want to be there, indeed
need to be there to justify this kind of translation are simply not there!
This is a link to a Greek Interlinear on that verse.
(http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/2-14.htm)
You can see that the re-translation of a single word with a whole bunch of words that aren't there occurs at the end with the Greek word
eudokia (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2107&t=KJV)
Compare that verse to this interlinear of Matthew 3:13 (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/3-17.htm) where a preposition and a pronoun
do accompany the word
eudokēsa (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2106&t=KJV) (the verb form of
eudokia), justifying its translation as a prepositional phrase.
(From that link, and the one before, you can click on the word
eudokēsa (the verb form) and
eudokia (a feminine noun) and work the link to see that a preposition and a pronoun
are present in the other instances where
eudokēsa is translated
I am well pleased, and that for
eudokia the same thing must be true, with the addition of a verb, for it to be translated as a prepositional phrase, for instance Matt 11:26 (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/11-26.htm). In other words, a prepositional phrase must be present in Greek to translate with a prepositional phrase in English and that phrasing is
not present in Luke 2:14!).
So, why is it that these modern translators would do such a blatant, even egregious thing?
Guess.
Yes! That's right. because the words the single angel spoke before the chorus chimed in say, in straightforward language, that the good news of great joy was for ALL people!
And that just smacks to High Heaven of Universalisim!
(Okay, so I am not a Greek scholar. I just use the research tools available to discover things. Therefore, I welcome any critique on this conclusion of mine that modern English translators must have knowingly mis-translated Luke 2:14 to make it fit their theology. I mean even the KJV was never
this blatant!)
So, what else is new?
Regardless, though, the story of Christmas is for
all mankind, even as you have pointed out, mg!
Enjoy your time with your family tomorrow, and the day after.
You know I will. :gimmefive:
Keep being good!
Hey All!
My beautiful wife forwarded this viral facebook video to me (Note: I do not have a facebook account).
It's a perfect example of why I celebrate Christmas - because the world does!
Two construction workers (https://www.facebook.com/stunning.vide0s/) pause to record themselves singing one of the most poignant Christmas songs of the modern era, Mary Did You Know. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Did_You_Know%3F)
Enjoy!
Quote from: jabcat on December 21, 2017, 09:20:06 PM
rose, eleuthros (and all interested in the topic), I'll add my 2 cents from personal perspective. :)
...After believing in UR and seeing several things more unconventionally than before, I began to take a harder line on Christmas; that it's pagan etc., and all the reasons I shouldn't participate. After acting like a horse's behind a few times to my dear, sweet wife - one of the kindest-hearted people I've ever been blessed to know - but who was ET at the time and loved Christmas, I realized I'd made an idiot of myself. Longer story short, I now don't really "celebrate Christmas" (or "Easter/Ishtar" etc.) for the days themselves, I personally don't like them and consider in my heart pretty much every day as another.
However, I do buy gifts for my family, spend time together with them, have a meal, etc. Don't really like Christmas trees, but my dear wife loves them, so she puts one up and I don't say a word. Maybe even hang an ornament or two. Don't mind singing a beautiful "Christmas" hymn now and then. She knows it's basically not "my thing", but I also know that even though I can be a massive knucklehead, I need to treat her as kindly and gently as I can, as well as the rest of my family. If it arises, I may share "true meanings" of things (as I understand them), but yet not make some legalistic big deal out of it, especially to the point of causing strife or dissension - or worse, hurt - within my family. As I've said, I believe these things are a matter of conscience - to each! - not essentials of the faith (or to UR!), so perhaps a feeble attempt to major on majors (Jesus, crucified, risen again, Savior of the world) and minor on the minors (what day people decide to be happier on) :).
Hey jabcat!
Now that's what I call living peaceably with all men, (including wives) as far as it is possible with yourself.
Guess what, your celebrating Christmas! Why? Because of the law of love that He put into your heart that overcomes the juridical law, enforced in the name of truth, that seems to engender the kind of response toward others that you told us about.
Sounds to me like you keep Christmas in your heart, all year round! Cool.
I thank you much for sharing your Christmas story.
Please know that you are appreciated.
Quote from: Ross on December 18, 2017, 03:39:02 AM
Quote from: Eleutheros on December 18, 2017, 01:11:24 AM
As a Universalist, what do you do with Christmas?
I know that my own family will be saved and learn at their appointed time.
Paul says in Romans 13;18 " If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people."
Romans 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."
Romans 14;5 " One person regards one day more sacred than another, while another person regards all days the same.
EACH PERSON MUST BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND."
Romans 14;13 " Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another, but resolve this-
never to put an obstacle or a trap in a brother's way."
Romans 14;19 " So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual up-building."
Romans 14;22 " The faith that you have keep as your conviction before God.
Blessed is the one who has no reason to condemn himself for what he approves."
Romans 15;7 " Therefore accept one another as Christ has also accepted you."
This means, for me, that I celebrate with my family, but could just as equally not celebrate.
Either way we know about Christ but each at our own level, even within my own family.
I'd just like to point out that the context of Romans 14:13 is regarding the JEWISH feast days. Pagan feast days, which were the only other choice at the time, were not even a consideration, since the gentiles were grafted into the Jews and they kept the same feast days with them, at that time. Pagan feasts were banned by the Torah, and Christmas didn't even exist at that time, although the pagan feast it was later tied into, did. Blessings...
Quote from: jugghead on December 22, 2017, 11:46:31 AM
For me, Christmas is not a one time event of the year, just like baptism is not a one time event in a persons life, or communion a monthly or yearly event ...... I view it as a lifestyle, not an event
How can I not celebrate the birth of "the means by which I was freed from sin", to me every day is Christmas because that is what I rejoice in, that is what I celebrate.
Christmas = Christ M.A.S. = Christ Makes All Saints ..... and that is this Universalists :2c:
Christmas as a lifestyle! I like that thought. It goes well with Paul's words that fruitfulness in the Spirit should be manifested as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness and self-control.
And I've found its a lot easier to realize that fruit when I feel joy. Christmas helps me, like a cheerleader, to carry that joy into the next year, and it's a yearly boost, a reminder to me of where I came from and where I'm going.
Enjoy your time with your family!
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 23, 2017, 12:30:49 AM
When I was younger, on Christmas morning, me and my sister would wake up to a tree surrounded with a plethora of presents. At a young age, honestly the main thing I cared about was how much stuff I was given. My parents took pictures, but I would try to rush it to find out all that we had gotten. Lately, after maturing more, I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you, out of love. I think many of us have idolized others who love us, who only do nice to get back, or to take of advantage of others for personal pleasure.
Now, at 19 years old, I am about to celebrate another Christmas with my family. I still am not sure if this is something I will do if I had a wife and children, but whoever we are, we should always walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, truth will be revealed, in Love. :Pray:
Ah! What a great example of the difference maturity makes! Without the commercialism of Christmas you would never have the memories to compare where you were with were you are now. I think there are many more who can attest to the maturing process growing up with Christmas brings.
So, may I assume, given your moniker, that you listen to Christmas music?
May I ask you to share one of your favorites, if you have one?
I wish you a wonderful day, MusicLover123, with your family. God bless, and thank you for sharing from your heart.
God bless you Eleutheros , very richly with more and more of HIM ....
Thank you for this post , it has been most beneficial at this time , thanks to all whom shared , It would seem , there is so much hatred and divisions in the world right now and the nations are angry ,
Our hope is in the POWER OF ONE , GOD will gather all things into Himself , One Spirit One faith One Hope One baptism
,,Holy SPIRIT is teaching so much right now ..
God bless you all each and every day :HeartThrob:
I hear it every year how Christmas is a time to spend with loved ones and family and to be surrounded by love.
I don't believe that is what the Gospel is about. I believe it is about loving those who persecute you and hate you. I believe it is about turning the cheek. I find it that Christmas is the time furthest removed from that environment.
What reward to do we have if we only love those that love us?
Quote from: Eleutheros on December 24, 2017, 04:09:56 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 23, 2017, 12:30:49 AM
When I was younger, on Christmas morning, me and my sister would wake up to a tree surrounded with a plethora of presents. At a young age, honestly the main thing I cared about was how much stuff I was given. My parents took pictures, but I would try to rush it to find out all that we had gotten. Lately, after maturing more, I have began to realize it's not really about the presents, but about the people that gave them to you, out of love. I think many of us have idolized others who love us, who only do nice to get back, or to take of advantage of others for personal pleasure.
Now, at 19 years old, I am about to celebrate another Christmas with my family. I still am not sure if this is something I will do if I had a wife and children, but whoever we are, we should always walk in the Spirit. When we walk in the Spirit, truth will be revealed, in Love. :Pray:
Ah! What a great example of the difference maturity makes! Without the commercialism of Christmas you would never have the memories to compare where you were with were you are now. I think there are many more who can attest to the maturing process growing up with Christmas brings.
So, may I assume, given your moniker, that you listen to Christmas music?
May I ask you to share one of your favorites, if you have one?
I wish you a wonderful day, MusicLover123, with your family. God bless, and thank you for sharing from your heart.
Thanks for your responses Eleutheros, they are very insightful and heartwarming. I hope God blesses you and your family as well.
As for Christmas music? Well, honestly, I don't really listen to any of that stuff. I usually find it a bit boring for my tastes (Though, I find that a bit ironic for some types of music I like to listen to...)
But, since you asked, here are 3 of my favorite songs I listen to. You guys are from a bit of an older generation, so I do not think they will be appreciated by you as much as me. But, no harm in suggestions, right?
Drop - Heron - Album
You are here nowPor La Noche - Photos From Nadira - Album
NadiraSouls in the Sky - David Helpling - Album
A Sea without MemoryI recommend you try listening to these on Spotify(If you know what that is, of course. It is basically an online streaming service where you can listen to music online.)
Blessings :dsunny:
ML
Quote from: trettep on December 24, 2017, 09:27:12 PM
I hear it every year how Christmas is a time to spend with loved ones and family and to be surrounded by love.
I don't believe that is what the Gospel is about. I believe it is about loving those who persecute you and hate you. I believe it is about turning the cheek. I find it that Christmas is the time furthest removed from that environment.
What reward to do we have if we only love those that love us?
I do agree with you, to a certain extent of course. Why not make it both about spending time with family, and about loving those who persecute you? What if your family is who is persecuting you? What if Christmas is the only time of the year that they can get together?
I also am curious, my parents say that whenever your family is in trouble, you always help them first. Would you agree with that, even if you felt conviction to help strangers you know beforehand?
:Peace2:
Yeah, I don't see that it has to be a complete inverse, either totally black or totally white. IMO, spending time with family doesn't necessarily mean one has to neglect anyone else. And yes, I personally will always take care of family first.
Quote from: rosered on December 24, 2017, 05:07:35 PM
God bless you Eleutheros , very richly with more and more of HIM ....
Thank you for this post , it has been most beneficial at this time , thanks to all whom shared , It would seem , there is so much hatred and divisions in the world right now and the nations are angry ,
Our hope is in the POWER OF ONE , GOD will gather all things into Himself , One Spirit One faith One Hope One baptism
,,Holy SPIRIT is teaching so much right now ..
God bless you all each and every day :HeartThrob:
Why thank you, rosered! :URWelcome: I'm pleased you found this little soiree into Christmas beneficial. May all that is of Spirit be yours, forever!
Enjoy your day. :Peace2:
Quote from: Eleutheros on December 24, 2017, 03:46:50 AM
Hey jabcat!
Now that's what I call living peaceably with all men, (including wives) as far as it is possible with yourself.
I thank you much for sharing your Christmas story.
Please know that you are appreciated.
:dsunny:
Quote from: trettep on December 21, 2017, 10:47:40 PM
Hi Jabcat, my wife also observes Christmas. She has a small tree in our living room. God has not blessed me with persuading her to give up Christmas observance.
:Peace2:
[Luk 2:10-11 YLT] 10 And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people -- 11 because there was born to you to-day a Saviour -- who is Christ the Lord -- in the city of David,
Merry Christmas everyone!
Quote from: Patinak on December 25, 2017, 08:20:34 PM
[Luk 2:10-11 YLT] 10 And the messenger said to them, `Fear not, for lo, I bring you good news of great joy, that shall be to all the people -- 11 because there was born to you to-day a Saviour -- who is Christ the Lord -- in the city of David,
Merry Christmas everyone!
Merry Christmas Patinak !! :dsunny:
in the tune of tiny Tim , God bless us everyone :HeartThrob:
Hi everyone,
I know this is a little old now but I wanted to reply and never got the chance.
I was raised to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, but also received lots of presents that day.
Then as a young adult I was more agnostic but still celebrated Christmas with family...then had a born again/spiritual experience and began reading the bible, praying a lot etc...and still celebrated. Then my cousin, who also became "born again" but had the influence of a pastor at a very small church that he founded, began to tell me that Christmas was pagan, not Jesus's birthday etc. I looked into it all, and much of that is true...so I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate.
I continued to celebrate with family but was unsure, and felt that maybe I was violating something and that God would be displeased with me for celebrating. So I just did it for family at that time but felt an icky feeling.
Then I became Christian Universalist and also have young kids. Slowly after that time I have grown to love certain aspects of Christmas. Like the OP said, what other time of year can you hear songs being played that have such great lyrics? Also, I know we all talk about being in the spirit nature and not the carnal nature...but we are here on earth and benefit greatly from signs, symbols, and setting aside certain times to focus on something. It would be nice if we could celebrate every day, but I get easily distracted and bogged down by the world. Having an anchor to focus on something helps me.
So during the Christmas season my kids and I read a lot of books about when Jesus was born. They know Santa is pretend but I did teach them about the real person Saint Nicholas who lived in Greece and gave to others in secret (yes I know there are other pagan connections to Santa Claus). We watch VeggieTales movies like the Little Drummer Boy (yes I know it is a made up story). We listen to lots of Christmas music, both Christian and secular. Just this morning my 5 year old was singing "Mary Did you Know?" While getting ready for school.
How about these UR lyrics "God rest ye merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, remember Christ our savior was born on Christmas day, to SAVE US ALL from Satan's power when we had gone astray" (not to save us from hell!)
or:
"Mary did you know, that your baby boy, would SAVE OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS" (not some of them)
or:
Hark the herald angels sing "Glory to the newborn King! Peace on earth and mercy mild God and sinners reconciled" (we are all sinners)
I also love Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel"
"What Child is This" and some others.
I think Jesus's birth, while not explicitly commanded to celebrate, and of course did not occur on Dec 25, is still important to remember, because without his birth he would have never taught us on earth, walked among us, and died to show his love, and then was resurrected. I think his teachings and how he lived on this earth are important to remember, and it would have never happened had he not been born, had Mary and Joseph not said "yes" to God.
The one aspect of Christmas is that troubles me is that my parents and in-laws buy them too much, despite each year me telling them to get them one small gift. But even that is a lesson to my kids, as we talk about WHY they get gifts (because people love them and want to show their love to them, not because Santa brings gifts to "good kids." And we talk about gratitude and giving to others to show love). My oldest is easily overstimulated and so the abundance of gifts and visiting family and eating treats gets to him every year, and I have to try to figure out how to combat that. To say that celebrating with family is easier than loving your enemies---sometimes family is your enemy! My brother wouldn't talk to me for about 2 years, and what finally brought us back together was Christmas. And now we are back to being close and loving. My husband's family is loving but we have issues there as well, such as a cousin who is aggressive toward my kids, and other things we don't see eye to eye on. To make an effort to spend time with and love family is WORK and not always easy.
Anyway I know this topic comes up every year, but I wanted to give my two cents and share my experience.
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 03, 2018, 03:14:32 PM
Hi everyone,
I know this is a little old now but I wanted to reply and never got the chance.
I was raised to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, but also received lots of presents that day.
Then as a young adult I was more agnostic but still celebrated Christmas with family...then had a born again/spiritual experience and began reading the bible, praying a lot etc...and still celebrated. Then my cousin, who also became "born again" but had the influence of a pastor at a very small church that he founded, began to tell me that Christmas was pagan, not Jesus's birthday etc. I looked into it all, and much of that is true...so I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate.
I continued to celebrate with family but was unsure, and felt that maybe I was violating something and that God would be displeased with me for celebrating. So I just did it for family at that time but felt an icky feeling.
Then I became Christian Universalist and also have young kids. Slowly after that time I have grown to love certain aspects of Christmas. Like the OP said, what other time of year can you hear songs being played that have such great lyrics? Also, I know we all talk about being in the spirit nature and not the carnal nature...but we are here on earth and benefit greatly from signs, symbols, and setting aside certain times to focus on something. It would be nice if we could celebrate every day, but I get easily distracted and bogged down by the world. Having an anchor to focus on something helps me.
So during the Christmas season my kids and I read a lot of books about when Jesus was born. They know Santa is pretend but I did teach them about the real person Saint Nicholas who lived in Greece and gave to others in secret (yes I know there are other pagan connections to Santa Claus). We watch VeggieTales movies like the Little Drummer Boy (yes I know it is a made up story). We listen to lots of Christmas music, both Christian and secular. Just this morning my 5 year old was singing "Mary Did you Know?" While getting ready for school.
How about these UR lyrics "God rest ye merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, remember Christ our savior was born on Christmas day, to SAVE US ALL from Satan's power when we had gone astray" (not to save us from hell!)
or:
"Mary did you know, that your baby boy, would SAVE OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS" (not some of them)
or:
Hark the herald angels sing "Glory to the newborn King! Peace on earth and mercy mild God and sinners reconciled" (we are all sinners)
I also love Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel"
"What Child is This" and some others.
I think Jesus's birth, while not explicitly commanded to celebrate, and of course did not occur on Dec 25, is still important to remember, because without his birth he would have never taught us on earth, walked among us, and died to show his love, and then was resurrected. I think his teachings and how he lived on this earth are important to remember, and it would have never happened had he not been born, had Mary and Joseph not said "yes" to God.
The one aspect of Christmas is that troubles me is that my parents and in-laws buy them too much, despite each year me telling them to get them one small gift. But even that is a lesson to my kids, as we talk about WHY they get gifts (because people love them and want to show their love to them, not because Santa brings gifts to "good kids." And we talk about gratitude and giving to others to show love). My oldest is easily overstimulated and so the abundance of gifts and visiting family and eating treats gets to him every year, and I have to try to figure out how to combat that. To say that celebrating with family is easier than loving your enemies---sometimes family is your enemy! My brother wouldn't talk to me for about 2 years, and what finally brought us back together was Christmas. And now we are back to being close and loving. My husband's family is loving but we have issues there as well, such as a cousin who is aggressive toward my kids, and other things we don't see eye to eye on. To make an effort to spend time with and love family is WORK and not always easy.
Anyway I know this topic comes up every year, but I wanted to give my two cents and share my experience.
:goodpost:
Quote"Mary did you know, that your baby boy, would SAVE OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS" (not some of them)
Also, I can almost here a Calvinist retort that Christ will only save the Elect Sons and Daughters, and not all of them, to this quote
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 03, 2018, 03:14:32 PM
Hi everyone,
I know this is a little old now but I wanted to reply and never got the chance.
Good Day!
Nah, it's not to old now, just look how long it took for me to get back to this topic!
Quote from: GodIsLoveI was raised to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, but also received lots of presents that day.
Then as a young adult I was more agnostic but still celebrated Christmas with family...then had a born again/spiritual experience and began reading the bible, praying a lot etc...and still celebrated. Then my cousin, who also became "born again" but had the influence of a pastor at a very small church that he founded, began to tell me that Christmas was pagan, not Jesus's birthday etc. I looked into it all, and much of that is true...so I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate.
I liked how you stated your dilemma: "I started to wonder if I should dislike Christmas and not celebrate."
For this statement I perceive it likely that there was no
natural inclination in you to dislike
what Christmas has become, despite the knowledge you gained of the origins of its symbols and celebrations.
You see, the meanings in symbols often change through a culture's use of that symbol, sometimes it's a good change, sometimes not.
For example, Leonard Nimoy's procurement of the hand symbol for the Hebrew letter Shin that was used by the rabbi to bless the congregation in the name of God. Nimoy's use of this symbol, through his popular character Mr. Spock, made it into a more universal blessing: "Live long and prosper!" Likewise the Nazi's procurement of the Hindu swastika as a symbol for Fascism.
So, in this age, while you might be inclined to whimsically speak the Vulcan blessing with the four fingers of you're left hand split down the middle and your thumb angled out from your hand, you are most likely never going to display a swastika,
despite the universally good symbolism it had before the Nazi's claimed it as their own.
Therefore it's in the claiming of a symbol by a group or individual with influence over a culture that a symbol's meaning begins to change: the more well-known the claimant the more universal the change.
Thus it is the same with the symbols of Christmas. They were claimed from paganism during the formation of the Christian religion and so, because of Christianity's influence, the meanings given them then are now the meanings they universally carry.
And those meanings are largely centered on Jesus Christ, the savior of all mankind.
Thus I perceive in the conundrum of the celebration of Christmas by a knowledgeable Christian the echos of Paul's words to the Corinthians:
Quote from: The Apostle PaulWith reference to food that has been offered in sacrifice to idols-We are aware that all of us have knowledge! Knowledge breeds conceit, while love builds up character. If a man thinks that he knows anything, he has not yet reached that knowledge which he ought to have reached. On the other hand, if a man loves God, he is known by God. (1Co 8:1-3 Twentieth Century New Testament)
Quote from: GodIsLoveI continued to celebrate with family but was unsure, and felt that maybe I was violating something and that God would be displeased with me for celebrating. So I just did it for family at that time but felt an icky feeling.
Sounds like religion to me!
I felt that icky feeling, too, when I was in Messianic Judaism. But as time went on and I got to know better the character of these religious folk the more I realized that pride, not love, was the driving force behind the desire of many to keep the Sabbaths. The same kind of pride I saw in the Calvinist denominations I grew up with: the pride of exclusivity, what I call the pride of the country club membership, and the pride of enlightenment - "We know that we are the one's chosen by God for heaven."
The sound of that pride in Messianic Judaism went something like this: "It's not that we
have to celebrate the Festivals, it's that we
get to celebrate them!" With the unspoken caveat being that it's because we are enlightened that we celebrate the Festivals!
Soon I came to recognize that the icky feeling was false guilt, the guilt felt from not meeting the demands of my religion, rather than truthful guilt, the kind of guilt I feel when I violate my conscience.
Thus, for perceiving the inimical effect of religion on human nature that turns the heart from contemplating the love of God that leads to joy into the guilt that comes from the fear of displeasing Jehovah, or worse, the pride that comes from a feeling of enlightenment, I feel no more guilt in celebrating Christmas, despite it's questionable origins, than I would using an Apple Computer despite the
question of it's logo's origins.Quote from: GodIsLoveThen I became Christian Universalist and also have young kids. Slowly after that time I have grown to love certain aspects of Christmas. Like the OP said, what other time of year can you hear songs being played that have such great lyrics? Also, I know we all talk about being in the spirit nature and not the carnal nature...but we are here on earth and benefit greatly from signs, symbols, and setting aside certain times to focus on something. It would be nice if we could celebrate every day, but I get easily distracted and bogged down by the world. Having an anchor to focus on something helps me.
Well said. Christmas is a yearly shot-in-the-arm for me of deeply felt and memorable joy from contemplating the awesomeness of God making Himself into a human being, just like me, subject to everything I deal with, that He might redeem Mankind... and especially of my own encounter with that very redemption.
Quote from: GodIsLoveSo during the Christmas season my kids and I read a lot of books about when Jesus was born. They know Santa is pretend but I did teach them about the real person Saint Nicholas who lived in Greece and gave to others in secret (yes I know there are other pagan connections to Santa Claus). We watch VeggieTales movies like the Little Drummer Boy (yes I know it is a made up story). We listen to lots of Christmas music, both Christian and secular. Just this morning my 5 year old was singing "Mary Did you Know?" While getting ready for school....
Gotta smile at that one because I sing that song to myself often, even when last Christmas is but a memory; it's quite poignant.
Quote from: GodIsLoveThe one aspect of Christmas is that troubles me is that my parents and in-laws buy them too much, despite each year me telling them to get them one small gift. But even that is a lesson to my kids, as we talk about WHY they get gifts (because people love them and want to show their love to them, not because Santa brings gifts to "good kids." And we talk about gratitude and giving to others to show love). My oldest is easily overstimulated and so the abundance of gifts and visiting family and eating treats gets to him every year, and I have to try to figure out how to combat that. To say that celebrating with family is easier than loving your enemies---sometimes family is your enemy! My brother wouldn't talk to me for about 2 years, and what finally brought us back together was Christmas. And now we are back to being close and loving. My husband's family is loving but we have issues there as well, such as a cousin who is aggressive toward my kids, and other things we don't see eye to eye on. To make an effort to spend time with and love family is WORK and not always easy.
Funny thing but I had a conversation with my 28 year old son a day ago about our holidays and he said he looked forward to celebrating them with us; meaning, for my divorcing myself from his mother, he and his siblings (my 27 year old daughter and my 26 year old son) still look forward to the time they spend with her and with my wife and me during the holidays.
That's quite an accomplishment! And it was because of the work my ex and I put into neutralizing the animosity between us, for their sake.
What I did was to create our own holiday traditions with them, apart from extended family, even as you mentioned you were doing.
That also meant that we began keeping that time to ourselves, despite protests from the extended family. Not every year did I keep the day just for us, but most, beginning with the holiday after the divorce.
Thus, after the brouhaha of the first year, extended family seemed more appreciative of our time together and it showed in the things they said and did, and most notably in the things they quit saying.
Perhaps you and hubby might consider a Christmas just for yourselves and your children a few times, apart from extended family, because Christmas makes memories that last a lifetime. Thus, if your children can say to you one day that they look forward to spending the holidays with you and you know they mean it, you can know that you and hubby learned the lessons of love well because of the unique chance Christmas gives us to show that love, even as you said it did concerning your brother. May the Spirit of Christmas be in you, forever.
And be good! It is, after all, what you were created to be!
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 24, 2017, 09:52:12 PMThanks for your responses Eleutheros, they are very insightful and heartwarming. I hope God blesses you and your family as well.
As for Christmas music? Well, honestly, I don't really listen to any of that stuff. I usually find it a bit boring for my tastes (Though, I find that a bit ironic for some types of music I like to listen to...)
But, since you asked, here are 3 of my favorite songs I listen to. You guys are from a bit of an older generation, so I do not think they will be appreciated by you as much as me. But, no harm in suggestions, right?
Drop - Heron - Album You are here now
Por La Noche - Photos From Nadira - Album Nadira
Souls in the Sky - David Helpling - Album A Sea without Memory
I recommend you try listening to these on Spotify(If you know what that is, of course. It is basically an online streaming service where you can listen to music online.)
Blessings :dsunny:
ML
Hey, ML!
Thanks for the heads up on the three groups you listed. I listened to them on youtube over the holidays and because I appreciate instrumental music I found myself reminiscing on Tangerine Dream and early Pink Floyd (the stuff well before Dark Side of the Moon); great headphone music. I particularly liked Heron.
So, ever hear of Isao Tomita (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLOpBujXM0)? Or Synergy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDM6kd8rk3g) (Larry Fast)? Or Mike Oldfield (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MY_cdUL1E)? (There's three from me!)
And, yes, ML, I know what Spotify is! (Gotta smile at that one!).
I have three children that are now adults (and Boy Howdy! Do I like having adults for children!) and they are always introducing me to new stuff like Woven Hand and Maximum The Hormone.
So, as to the so-called generational difference in music preferences.... Well, Roger Daltry said it best, "Rock is dead, they say. Long live rock!"
Funny story: My oldest son comes home from school one day, about 2006, all excited. "Dad! Dad! Ever hear of a song called
Hocus Pocus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV0F_XiR48Q)?"
"Yes." I replied. "It's by Focus, a Dutch band from the early Seventies that introduced yodeling to rock."
After his surprise that I knew this strange moldy oldy, I qued it up in my digital library and we both air jammed and yodeled our way into a laughing fit; it is quite a silly piece after all.
I hope you're sharing your music with your folks and they with you. It helps make some really good family stuff happen.
Be blessed and be good!
Quote from: Eleutheros on January 09, 2018, 02:07:14 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 24, 2017, 09:52:12 PMThanks for your responses Eleutheros, they are very insightful and heartwarming. I hope God blesses you and your family as well.
As for Christmas music? Well, honestly, I don't really listen to any of that stuff. I usually find it a bit boring for my tastes (Though, I find that a bit ironic for some types of music I like to listen to...)
But, since you asked, here are 3 of my favorite songs I listen to. You guys are from a bit of an older generation, so I do not think they will be appreciated by you as much as me. But, no harm in suggestions, right?
Drop - Heron - Album You are here now
Por La Noche - Photos From Nadira - Album Nadira
Souls in the Sky - David Helpling - Album A Sea without Memory
I recommend you try listening to these on Spotify(If you know what that is, of course. It is basically an online streaming service where you can listen to music online.)
Blessings :dsunny:
ML
Hey, ML!
Thanks for the heads up on the three groups you listed. I listened to them on youtube over the holidays and because I appreciate instrumental music I found myself reminiscing on Tangerine Dream and early Pink Floyd (the stuff well before Dark Side of the Moon); great headphone music. I particularly liked Heron.
So, ever hear of Isao Tomita (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eLOpBujXM0)? Or Synergy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDM6kd8rk3g) (Larry Fast)? Or Mike Oldfield (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MY_cdUL1E)? (There's three from me!)
And, yes, ML, I know what Spotify is! (Gotta smile at that one!).
I have three children that are now adults (and Boy Howdy! Do I like having adults for children!) and they are always introducing me to new stuff like Woven Hand and Maximum The Hormone.
So, as to the so-called generational difference in music preferences.... Well, Roger Daltry said it best, "Rock is dead, they say. Long live rock!"
Funny story: My oldest son comes home from school one day, about 2006, all excited. "Dad! Dad! Ever hear of a song called Hocus Pocus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV0F_XiR48Q)?"
"Yes." I replied. "It's by Focus, a Dutch band from the early Seventies that introduced yodeling to rock."
After his surprise that I knew this strange moldy oldy, I qued it up in my digital library and we both air jammed and yodeled our way into a laughing fit; it is quite a silly piece after all.
I hope you're sharing your music with your folks and they with you. It helps make some really good family stuff happen.
Be blessed and be good!
I had a similar reaction from my son (who is 27) when he said "Dad you got to listen to this new song by Disturbed." He knows what type of music I prefer, it was the song "The Sound of Silence", I said, "yea son, I've heard it, it was done by Simon and Garfunkel back in the 70's" ...... but the one thing I have to say about the version that Disturbed does, I love their version more than the original.
Spotify is online streaming, I thought it was making polka dots in your carpet while walking through your living room sipping your coffee .... I guess I was wrong.
God knows I love this thread!!
A joyful noise unto the Lord !! :angelharp:
I have thought about the grace given to cover all the error we make when trying to learn righteousness and do what pleases God , GOD IS Spirit , The freedom of Living in the Spirit is everything is covered and God has got this taken care of before we even knew it ...
Being on the receiving end of Gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT WOW!!! :HeartThrob: Best we can do is share them with one another right !
Gods gifts of the good and perfect for His children ... James 1 Good and Perfect Gifts
...16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow.
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation....
I have considered our lives like seasons , in the natural [good & evil , and to choose the good ] and the rebirth/new birth of the Spiritual [perfect comes ] thought the Word of truth or the Lord Jesus Christ .
Just as tender buds in the spring , being watered and cared for creates a flower that blooms in the summer , that can begin to bear fruit in the autumn of life to harvest for the times to come ,
Only to experience the winter as a dormant condition that waits for change and a new start all over again in the spring ...
The winter of our hope as we eat the harvested first fruits to get though the winter and in rest , the promise of Gods making all things new once again , this cycle of life and its portions DO prove Gods love for His creation and our thankful hearts this time of year that keep the songs of praise to a glorious Creator and to enjoy the fruits from the laborers of love have provided in season !!
So many scriptures testify to this truth it seems !!
Pray that our flight not be in the winter or Sabbath rest is to leave behind us what God has provided to sustain us and keep us in His peace , because of the tribulation in the world it seems to me , but though this suffering does the sons of God come and are birthed though to Gods glory and our praise to Him for this miracle of Life , the first fruit of harvest was His only begotten Son [first fruits of the increase of Gods grace upon His creation ] ....Showing us Life by His LOVE ..
God answers prayers[communion ] by His great grace upon us ...... :HeartThrob: