Love or You are nothing!

[whatistruth]

Hi !

I read writings of some people while I was browsing this forum. They says,

"  I believe that there will be many that think "didn't I do this good thing in you name God?" and God will say "No.... you didn't do it in my name (in love), you did it out of fear, (or you did it out of thinking you will be rewarded, or you did it to be praised by men.) but you didn't do it in my name... Who am I? I am love. You didn't do these things out of love."

And  say, "  For whatever is done apart from the Holy Spirit is sin."

And this verse,
1.corinthians 13:3 ... If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[a] but do not have love, I gain nothing...       ( we are normally ordered to help the poor.)

Also Paul said, " everything that is not done by faith is sin."

Sometimes I do good works against him without loving a person, sometimes  for this is the will of God sometimes for fear of God... ( and sometimes I am trying to keep his orders even though it is not love.)

My questions is,

Am I sinning by doing this ways?
Or, is it worthless in the sight of God?

And, Is the good works of the unbelievers a sin? Or worthless ?

[jugghead]

To sin is to "miss the mark"

It is understanding the difference between "Are we doing it?" or "Is God doing it through us"

If we think we are the one doing it, we are separated from God (miss the mark)

If we know that it is God doing it through us, we are one with God (hit the mark)

He gets the credit for our acts of kindness not us

To believe that all the good things that have been done in your life was God's Spirit doing them through you is to realize He has always been with you

[marie glen]

Hi !

I read writings of some people while I was browsing this forum. They says,

"  I believe that there will be many that think "didn't I do this good thing in you name God?" and God will say "No.... you didn't do it in my name (in love), you did it out of fear, (or you did it out of thinking you will be rewarded, or you did it to be praised by men.) but you didn't do it in my name... Who am I? I am love. You didn't do these things out of love."

   :friendstu: What a great insight! :gimmefive:

And  say, "  For whatever is done apart from the Holy Spirit is sin."

And this verse,
1.corinthians 13:3 ... If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[a] but do not have love, I gain nothing...       ( we are normally ordered to help the poor.)

Also Paul said, " everything that is not done by faith is sin."

Sometimes I do good works against him without loving a person, sometimes  for this is the will of God sometimes for fear of God... ( and sometimes I am trying to keep his orders even though it is not love.)

My questions is,

Am I sinning by doing this ways?
Or, is it worthless in the sight of God?

And, Is the good works of the unbelievers a sin? Or worthless ?

Forced 'works' do fall short, I think.. But if we continue to "draw near to God, coming boldly to the throne of grace to receive the help we need.." - knowing we need it.. .."Keep being filled with the Holy Spirit" Gal 5?

I've long considered we have one commandment - which fulfills all others - to "love God" - doing so we will draw near to Him.. This is "the way" which works - transforms us and continues to transform us. We are a work in progress.. "Abiding in Him" .."resting in Him"..."under the shadow of the almighty" ..abiding "under His wing".. The verse which says "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" is otherwise translated as "you will be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.."

Loving Him, we will love our fellow person. If we do things as forced.. we will become weary (very weary) but if we "wait upon Him" and do works as His Spirit inspires, lifts up and prompts, filling us with the energy and enthusiasm as opposed to 'forced works'/flesh-lower nature,flawed character works. "I never knew you" - :ty: I understand that verse so much better now!

I used to think I had to force myself to share the gospel.. very uncomfortable.. then I realized it didn't yield fruit anyway.. and realized to let Him do things through me, not me forcing myself.. Then, He was able to provide the openings, etc..
:cloud9: He IS love..

To sin is to "miss the mark"

It is understanding the difference between "Are we doing it?" or "Is God doing it through us"

If we think we are the one doing it, we are separated from God (miss the mark)

If we know that it is God doing it through us, we are one with God (hit the mark)

He gets the credit for our acts of kindness not us

To believe that all the good things that have been done in your life was God's Spirit doing them through you is to realize He has always been with you

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[whatistruth]

Hi !

I read writings of some people while I was browsing this forum. They says,

"  I believe that there will be many that think "didn't I do this good thing in you name God?" and God will say "No.... you didn't do it in my name (in love), you did it out of fear, (or you did it out of thinking you will be rewarded, or you did it to be praised by men.) but you didn't do it in my name... Who am I? I am love. You didn't do these things out of love."

   :friendstu: What a great insight! :gimmefive:

I can't believe you said that. This is sucks! (
other paragraph)

I can not understand.

God did not know you for a people because he did not do a job with love?

I'm sorry but Such a god is not like a god of love. 

then when I do not feel love I must stop doing good deeds and I don't holding on to his orders.

I will wait for me to love to do something. then I will never do good things. Because now I will not be able to be proficient in love, and now all I feel is fear. then I will continuing to do bad things. 

[marie glen]

I think you should totally forget about trying to do right and wrong and being all tied up about it.. Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, My burden is light". Whenever ylu feel like doing a good deed, why wouldn't it be good? But if someone is feeling like they must go out and do good deeds lest their church ban them or something.. that is wrong.. adding commandments and burdens..

You, and I and all of us are declared righteous because of our faith in Jesus. Period. And "God is love". I always remember if there's something contentious in me about Him or His word, I know the fault lies with me. So I submit, submit, submit.. to Him. It works.

I wonder :Chinscratch: why you were unable to receive my compliment to you about the insight of believers, church members, etc ministering without "Love"/(God!) Jesus will say He never knew them.. I never fully realized that truth before. :ty:

    :Peace2: God bless you! ..it's a beautiful radiant day here.. the sunshine is reminding me of the verse Isaiah wrote of a vision He had in the Temple (during Old Testament contract days) of the LORD and said "He was high and lifted up and His train filled the temple.." :cloud9: "God is patient.. awaiting the precious fruit of the earth.." .."they will be jewels in the day I make up my kingdom.." "I have loved you" (whatistruth) "with an everlasting love.." "beneath are the everlasting arms.." "be sure to enter His rest.." "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" .. be happy! keys to happiness? worship/love outpoured and thankfulness? Someone told me a long time ago.. "He tries so hard to help us/set us free.." .."Thy Word is Truth" .."the truth shall set you :banana: free.." (all of us  :dsunny: :Pray: :HeartThrob: ) I hope you don't mind my carrying on like this.. :Peace2: the Lord bless you! :Pray:

[sorry about all the emoti's.. they're jsut so perfect sometimes..!]

[darryl]

all I know is God's ESSENCE is Love...yes, He's Holy and Just  but this Holiness and Justice comes about from His Love...His love always wants the best for His creatures..I dont know exactly why I believe this what with all the horror n evil in the world (as well as all the good things ) but something inside makes me KNOW its the Truth.God IS Love.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :iagree: :cloud9:

[jugghead]

Love is not the only name of God in which we do things ..... but it is the greatest

[whatistruth]

I see...

I apologize if I broken you. I'm just saying.

I know very well that God is not only love.

When some people come to work, they see only love, but sometimes they see something else to support themselves.
Sometimes a verse is very clear but they search other meanings in a verse.
sometimes it is a deeper one and they look at it from a single angle.

Of Course, it is important to do something with love. But also only important too that you do something.

I thought love was a act.

A lot of non-believers out there do a lot of good things. I do not understand what they do with love, but they do!

it is said that we should be afraid of God throughout the holy book. there are a lot of people who keep orders because they are really afraid. God could not condemn these people.

A lot of people who are not believers (and believers) are trying to do something according to their own possibilities.

rejecting all these things a lot of poor and inadequate people are trying to do is like refusing that a person is flawed.

Not accepting all this means that we can not please God.

it is very important that people get rid at the end and it is very beautiful.but it is very important to treat them insightfully until people are completely saved.

I admit that love is very important.but understanding and tolerance are as important as love at least.

to person who is trying to do something in his way, "you have not done this good by faith, You have sinned in doing so and do not know you "
means that God does not enforce all the verses that shout love.
" love does not seek its own good"
" love is not happy with injustice"

there are many things I want to say but my words are inadequate.   :2c:

Thank you for Everything.

[Ross]

A lot of people who are not believers (and believers) are trying to do something according to their own possibilities.

The nutshell- summary- condensed truth- "The flesh".

I admit that love is very important- but understanding and tolerance are as important as love at least.
" love does not seek its own good"
" love is not happy with injustice"

Understanding and tolerance are part of that love- knowing the plan releases the bondage of this age.
PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT ALL FEAR.
God is perfect, and I.M.O and experience, as we grow we come to understand the intensity and patience of His love; -  but we have to go through experiences to grow in that wisdom and understanding.

[whatistruth]

 please read from beginning to end what I write. :girlheart:
Because it was a bit long.I guess..

I know very well that fearing him does not help fulfill commandments.
Sometimes, I did not want to worship him even when I believed in the fiery hell, when I doubted the character of God. I didn't care to burn me.Sometimes still when I feel like bad things about him (especially about his character) I can getting away from him.
how stupid I am !

I mean is,   we are already doing everything in the flesh. If I do good deeds to one, why is it sin?

" the law is not for the right people "

I know, Paul said, " .corinthians 13:3 ... If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[a] but do not have love, I gain nothing...   "

Think of it, you give it all, but you're still being rejected. It's a pity to people. I will not give anything after this! I will not pity the poor.  :eek:
very thought-provoking.

and I know God did not accept what gave of cain.


And...
I know, The holy spirit make to us good things.but  it does not need to completely reject people's good things.
"You! Come! You did good things with your flesh. you have helped people but you have sinned by doing so! Now get out here! I dont know you ! "
this is so ... !
I also believe that all people carry the spirit of God. If people are doing good things, this is already a god's tax.

we can not make to perfection even if we are already filled with the holy spirit.After the death will be change.

A lot of people did not completely know what love was as much as Jesus Christ. A lot of people still do not know Jesus. it is unfair to these people. ( As I said, even believer people can not always show perfect love. )

There's no point in showing people worthless for defending love. it is bad for me, even if god is doing this.

I know there are many orders in the book about love. I know that works like our dirty pieces of cloth will not save us.but I don't believe it is completely useless.

There are a lot of unbelievers people around me. They are trying to do good things.sometimes even better than me (or any christian). ok they are not perfect but no one is perfect ! to say that they do totally useless works is just like to say that those who believe will be saved.

some people care about the sufferings of only Christians or Israelites. this is a bit like.

think of a person, he/she is not a believer. It does not have the holy spirit but, this person is patient with suffering throughout his life. people share their sadness.and they did a lot more good things. then the sorrows that these people have inflicted are empty. they have been patient and understanding for nothing. they have been suffering in vain since they came to the world.

to think like that, I think it is against the universalism which is the only theology that cares about people in the first place. I am a hopeful universalist. I believe that God gave me this hope.If one day I find out that it is not true, God has actually do me a great evil. I don't even want to think about it.

Everyone finds verse that confirms themselves. tend to embrace self-confident ideas. for this reason there are many opinions. there are many denominations and objections.

Love includes understanding and tolerance.When love is not understanding and tolerance can be inadequate.

And I know "PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT ALL FEAR."

but everyone can not easily reach this stage. Fear as much as the love of God is also important. Of course I'm not talking about aimlessly scaring.I think, love is a action.

For example, God showed own love by giving his son. Also, he showed his hatred of Esau by giving to jackal. and he left his home desolate and completely destroyed the edomites.God showed his love and his hatred in his actions. There are many examples in the book like this.

P.S I have to love my enemies. sometimes they are like my enemies who give false teachings. ( I'm not talking about fundamentalist. sometimes I give them rights because in the holy book there can be indeed verses that support every view.not because I approve them.)
they make me sick and cause me to be unsleepy. I have hated them many times. but if one of them is helpless,  I will help they as soon as I can.
If this is why God does not accept me, there is nothing I can do.

and I want to remind you that there is an exclusion in the book especially against those who give false teachings. sometimes even curse them! Apparently the apostates has not reached the love level. even god!

From another point of view, god does not help a lot of people.God could help when people help did not. but he does not. No love ?!  :eek:  whereas a human being is helping a human being even if they with loveless.

There is much to think about.I do not think anything is so simple.


Anyway, Here we are exchanging ideas. it is important to unite in universalism.

Thank you all.

God bless all!

[marie glen]

You are very right there is so much to think about.. One thing I know that is true, "Jesus is the exact representation of the Father" - of His character.

To say one's good deeds are like filthy rags, means when we do good deeds thinking we can "earn" our salvation or even His approval. When the salvation/rescue and blueprint plan of God is to accept that all good things come from Him. (He being Life, is my opinion.) And we are saved from death and the cause, imperfection/missing the mark - which we inherited from Adam - by believing in the One He sent forth/Jesus. To reject that and insist we can earn life is an error.

Many of the things you said, is exactly why God's losing anyone makes no sense. Many have never even heard of Jesus, so how can they have faith in hIm and so be saved?

It's not, that our acts of kindness are not good things. Of course they are. But it just does not earn us our way 'into heaven' as they say.. (Heaven is coming to Earth. :gsmile: )

How do we know the Edomites weren't cannibals or something? God is going to resurrect every one who has ever lived and will bring them to repentance and yielding to Him.. and thus all will be saved, even cannibals.

In order to have a world not like it is, where no one is hurt, etc, He would have to have never endowed thinking ability.

Thinking ability changed everything. Of course God knew that. And He decided to do it anyway. To me, I think it's worth it. I like being able to think and ponder and learn.. I can't imagine what it would be like to not have thinking ability. And He's (surely?) letting it run its course so all will be fully convinced that "the way" of love and faith/trust is the ideal and only way.. There's only two directions, I figure, toward God or away from God. One works and one can never work, it's simply the way it is. What would it be like if we weren't all learning this, and all learning it together? How long might it take for each one to wander away from Him in their own time? And what a mess! I think He's very organized and very orderly.

And I think we will all find that He has done every single thing just the way He has in order to bring about the very best 'end' result. I believe it will be so awesome we will never doubt it was all worth it.. even  :eek: wars, and everything else.. Imperfection is an abyss. A dark bottomless pit of potential. I think the world is going to get far worse. For there are the two fruits - good and evil. And they both have to ripen fully..

:gsmile: thanks for the very good discussion and conversation. God bless you! :girlheart:

 

[Ross]

  I do read from beginning to end- my intention is not to be nasty, but to encourage the expansion of your horizon.
Growth is a slow process, and needs to be so that what is truth stays and the lies are peeled off like onion layers.

After the death will be change.

One of those key points.

And I know "PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT ALL FEAR."

but everyone can not easily reach this stage.

Each in their appointed time. For many that time is not until they are resurrected. THEN they will be shown the error of their ways and come to see the positive glorious future is for all.

When Peter was told to walk on water to get to Christ Peter only sank when he looked around at the wind at began to sink- then Christ pulled peter out of the water. [ Matt 14;30,31].
For me, this is a simile for our faith; ergo- when we look at others and dramas around us we may sink.
Christ also points out to Peter in John 21;22 that we are to focus on Christ alone.

As we grow in Spirit we see more and more problems around us.
Paul talks about this.
1 Cor 2;14,15 " The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him;
                        he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
                       The spiritual person discerns all things and is not himself subject to scrutiny."

Paul makes an observation about mans' horizons and how God had deliberately hidden a secret from mankind.[Eph 3;9]
If God kept this glorious truth secret why would He then condemn man?

[Ross]

I think the world is going to get far worse. For there are the two fruits - good and evil. And they both have to ripen fully..

Amen! Man has to learn consequential thinking.
That seems to be being covered up on all fronts by accusing others for their mistakes before fixing out own- would be why we are told to pull the plank from our own eye before trying to remove the splinter from someone else's eye.
I.M.O man has to see that true equality is only through Christ's work.

[whatistruth]

Nice talking to you too  :HeartThrob:

I will solicit for something from you all.

I finally decided to go to the doctor for my illness.

treatment started. No improvement yet.

if you pray for me maybe I healing faster.

Thank you.

[marie glen]

.. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :Pray:

I was thinking about these things this morning.. This is where this conversation has brought me.. I hadn't really thought this way before - not fully - but more and more I'm convinced that in those Old Testament days of origins of nations, when God enlisted the men of Israel to go to war with the Canaanite nation's, it was an act of mercy. And before then, the flood too, an act of mercy.

God sees a bigger, fuller picture than we do. He is the good doctor and humanity (at present) is the sick body.

Is there a mortally diseased limb? Is there gangrene? It simply had to be dealt with. (Or make all to be like an ant farm, no thinking, no choosing ability.)

There's also hints in the Old Testament, that demons messed with the human seed and dna, mingling demon seed with human. "And the continual thought of all hearts was continuously evil." (Genesis 9 -> the flood)

Right now the world judges God. But I believe there will be a day, a peaceful, joyful, glorious day, when all in heaven and earth will be gathered joyfully around His throne, and that for some moment or so, it will be utterly silent. That all, in unbelievable awe, will be silent before Him - like the verse "be still.. and know I am God".

I also think He speaks it to us during our days now. To be still.. and know He is God.. to "boldly enter His throne room of grace (to get the help we need").

Imagine (or not!) what the world and our lives would be if we'd all been mingled with demon seed. (From whence come the very greatest evils?)

All will be resurrected. All reconciled. "He is gathering all things in heaven and in earth, into Jesus" Ephesians 1:10 (Colossians 1:20) Because "mercy trumps judgment" and "love never fails". Love conquers all. "God is love." 1 John 4:8

...Mary said "..holy is the name of Him" - In the Greek, the name of Him, also means "holy is the character of Him" (Luke 1 - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-49.htm )

[marie glen]

Growth is a slow process, and needs to be so that what is truth stays and the lies are peeled off like onion layers.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: amen! (and the rest of your posts too :thumbsup: )

And I know "PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT ALL FEAR."

but everyone can not easily reach this stage.

...But it does seem like He is calling.. and "those He calls He also justifies, those He justifies He also glorifies" (Reconciles.)

[Patinak]

whatistruth,

Prayers going out for healing!

[darryl]

Love is not the only name of God in which we do things ..... but it is the greatest

God's very ESSENCE  is LOVE according to 1 John...God IS love...........we humans all fall so far short compared to His LOVE.

[whatistruth]

If anyone cannot do useful things without the holy spirit, God does not have the right to blame anyone. Because, he does not give everything to everyone.

Sometimes I think, God allowed evil. he allowed evil spirits. He allowed people to be bad.(Sometimes, god make own bad things.)
He push for a life that people do not want...

People got cold because of a lot of bad things in the bible.

And,
Wars, famines,  injustice, hate, Rape, Pain and many bad things... already, he allowing a thousand different opinion. so everyone was hostile to each other.
And he allowed other gods.

He even kept secrets of his book.He hid himself.  And much more secrets... for this reason people couldn't not faith. For this reason, people have moved away from God. And infinite hell became believers. God has no right to be mad at these people! but he is punishing.

Because of all the things, some people hate to god. Some people loathe to him. I think, God too, own reap what he sow. Like us!

[Ross]

He even kept secrets of his book.He hid himself.  And much more secrets... for this reason people couldn't not faith. For this reason, people have moved away from God. And infinite hell became believers. God has no right to be mad at these people! but he is punishing.

Is God punishing, or are they suffering consequences of their actions?

Also; for God to keep a secret and then punish is illogical. That conclusion seems to have come from "leaders" who CLAIM to know everything, CLAIM to be righteous YET are so far from the truth.

2 Cor 11;14,15 " For Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light.
                         So it is no great surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.
                         Their end will be according to their works."

To learn love one seems to need to go without to appreciate the true love.
Many claim to love but  their actions are not as they should be.
Does that mean love is useless?
Or is that pointing out the need for real love to come in reality in full- which, I.M.O will not happen while mankind is attempting to run the show.
When the error of our ways is pointed out to all in the resurrection, then All will understand the need for all these terrible things to happen as part of learning right from wrong, good from evil. 
The new ages will be wiping away all the rubbish and bringing to light the wonder of creation, when ALL becomes new.
The truth is indescribable. Glorious. Wondrous. The old will become new.

[whatistruth]

Dear my brother Ross,

I'm talking about something different. I also say a lot, but everyone focuses on one point. Doesnt matter.

I take what I write from in the holy book. So I answer your first question, yes.

when the holy book is read in detail, there are very disturbing things. some prefer to ignore these.

since I first believed, I really thought what Good News was.

There was a constant threat rather than good news. Always threats,  always judgement, always, if you do it you will die, if you do it you will life,If you do it you will burn-you will suffering- you will curse- you will be sick-
İf if if....

Always say,   you can not inherit, you will be punished, If you do not go to the end, in your hand ones will be taken,do your work properly,   :footmouth:
If you do not adhere to God's goodness, you will be cut off... and many many things...

you can not answer all of these even if you answer one.Do not get me wrong, I do not expect answers to all.
As I said before, sometimes I think in a loud voice.

I just want to say that,Even if the understanding isinsufficient, I do not make up any of these.they are all there.

Thank you for your understanding.  :girlheart:

[rosered]

 
  Dear whatistruth ,
  I see your struggles with   both ways  , love God or else ..
  but the truth is what  is in us ,,,    the BOOK   OF LIFE   AND THE BOOK OF DEATH  AS TRUTH ..

  We get to experience both  life and death for  learning the TRUTH .

What dies needs too die  , so  the ROOT , and  Life in Christ  can take a hold of us and  grow in Truth and grace  , God is not a respecter  o0f persons  every last one of us  born mortal  , must put on immortality
in Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive   ,  the old adam in us suffers for sin nature , but it is not the end all   , but the new beginnings is in Christ   , keep on looking to Christ for your peace  and joy   and it will come JESUS IS THE REWARD  for obedience     ,,  faith and such good works ..   God is working in you and though you 
  You just have to know striving against God is  a fruitless   attempt to control what God has already ordained from the foundation of the world ...  Just learn to go with the flow ...  rest in His   Wisdom  and wait and see   what GOD has done  already  , when you can taste God and know His goodness , it will become easier to accept everything  as Gods   work , not only in your own life , but everyone lives as well .
  We do reap what we sow   in our lives  on a personal level     ,,,God teaches us to trust Him though all the   suffering   for good and evil ..  Till Christ comes and makes  everything new  , this is our Hope we keep alive  and remains   , faith , hope and Love , and  love  being the greatest  end ...

  Song of Trust in God's Provision
...2"Open the gates, that the righteous nation may enter, The one that remains faithful.

3"The steadfast of mind You will keep in perfect peace, Because he trusts in You. 4"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock....

[eaglesway]

A part of wisdom and humility is to kno that none of us can judge ourselves completely accurately. As James said, "We all stumble in many ways".

We do our best to walk with Him and He knows how to teach us through life and chaos, blessing and suffering, how to become more like Him, who endured life and chaos and suffering to save us.

Accepting that we cannot "figure it all out" in our minds, but that we must "live it" through time and trusting His will for us is one of the hardest lessons we have to learn.

It is not what we know but rather, who we are becoming thru grace and the working of His Spirit in usthat is of the utmost importance to the one who says, "I AM WHO I AM"...... because He is making all the world to be as He is, and He will be all in all, which is why Jesus says,

"Behold(Look! Understand!)- I am making all things new!"

[whatistruth]

Thank you all for your answers.

I just want to be happy now.

No longer,

I don't want to be under threat.
I don't want to be sick.
I don't want to see pain and injustice around me.
I don't want to see God's revenge and evils.
I don't want to fight the god.
I don't want to hate God.

I dont want to people who live a life they do not want to live...

but I can not changing any of these. I know this day will come. everything will be new. But I am not sure that everyone will be saved yet.
Even if it is, How all these hard sorrows will erase the traces of all these injustices.
is it worth all the hard life to be happy at last?
if there is a problem in the character of the god, is it possible to be happy with he in heaven?

Actually,

lastly i want to say, i love very much each of you.I wish we were be all together.