Christian Universalist challenged by passage in Genesis

[sheila]

 :2c: replenish the earth....God'sspirit seed sown in clay..terrestialman/womanprovide little clay vesselsfor God to sow His spirit seedin.

   Sarah,Mary etc...show Godhaspower tosowseed[spirit ] in clay vessels[clothe with flesh garment]..as He deems.

    fleshneedstobe replenished..becauseit breaks down and returns tothe earth...Hisspirit seed is inHisimage..eternal...andreturnsunto

  GodinHeaven.

[sheila]

prodigals returnhome naked[spirit unclothed with flesh vessel..asit dissolves intodust] and is givenTHE BEST ROBE[an incorruptible

immortalvessel]  GOD CLOTHES THE NAKED. the shame ofour nakedness..hastotodowith sin getting the dominionoverusresultingin

death.MY PEOPLE SHALLNOT BE ASHAMED.the wicked onesgives the wine of fornication[babylonswine/harlotry with this world] to

look upon our nakedness[just as inthe garden..to make us ashamed..through lies/deciet] In Rev 3;18 Jesus counsels the Laodecian

church as to how they are unaware to their own spiritual blindness/nakedness.  Most of us have beenthere..at best down here our own

righteousnessis asfilthy rags.so filthy rags or naked we all return home...and He must clothe us.

     Just as God made man's vessel as a biological vehicle for His spirit to dwell in[spirit in measure/token] so,too He continues to clothe us.  :2c:

   the whole creationhas been groaning[our spirits groaning with words we can not utter from within] for the revealing of the SONS

OF GOD.  man's spirit is the son of GOD....man's flesh is the son of man.  WHAT IS MAN THAT THOU ART MINDFUL OF HIM?


  when they makeofthe role of the people..they shallsay...this oneandthat one wasborn in Zion.

THE LAST ADAM IS A QUICKENING SPIRIT.....[spirit  without measure].

[eaglesway]

God clothes all with love, the covering.

[marie glen]

Eaglesway wrote ~

God clothes all with love, the covering.

Amen.. I always think of 1 Corinthians 15:35 - But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?"

..it was sown a physical body.. but will be raised different (and incorruptible!).. like animals differ.. from fish, and birds.. and from stars or sun or moon.. yet all will be clothed with Love! "His salvation to the ends of the Earth.." (Is 49:6) "To restore the earth, to cause them to inherit the desolate heritages.." (vs 8) "the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" (11:7)

But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" :Chinscratch: like ripples? all comes from Him.. allows it to choose and go "the" wRong way..? And salvation built in and also sent in ripples.. Israel --> Jesus, the seed (of Abraham) sent to Israel --> sent to gentiles.. At the end two harvests, the tares/grapes of wrath? (imo) and the wheat into His barn/bosom.. "and His feet touch down upon Mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11) ...And later --> "all things made new" Yhvh is "all in all" - "all clothed with Love"

..."in dying, you shall continually die" - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-17.htm "surely die" - "to die, to die" #H4191, #H4191

I think it's an unavoidable thing that must be learned by all, that there are two ways - The Way ("this is the decree.. You are My Son..") - it is Life.

And the wroNg way.. the opposite to life.. it can only lead to death - where all would go if not for His intervention.. But what better way to become fully convinced? Of what? Of good from evil, which imo, is life from death/nonlife. Once we know this, we can plainly understand the utter futility (and foolishness) of the wroNg way! "Do not go that way" for to do so can only ever end in a wisp of self destructive smoke.. (Metaphor of course, but, imo, very true nevertheless :gsmile: ) Besides, the potential of the wrong way (imperfection/"missing the mark") is like an abyss... as history has already proven many times.. a bottomless pit of potential 'darkness'/evil - opposite as we learned so early on, opposite of live (spelled backwards.. yes it's really true! An english synchronicity.

"..in dying, shall die.." .."shall surely die" - evil opposite of live  (a truly unavoidable lesson? if we are to have faculties of reasoning and thinking? If we are to be of His family, His children.. If what He is creating is to remain incorruptible? And, have rational creatures/beings?) :2c:

[CST]

Well, I'm certainly still interested in replying although I had given up on getting a reply to this and may well have forgotten what I way attempting to convey but I will try.

I think it's safe to say Jesus did the most historic things, no more needs saying on that, as John put it 'the world could not hold the books...'

You may not see any reason to change you reasoning a word repetition in Hebrew, I don't either but I believe I was trying to suggest the possibility of a more complex use that can not be proved, but only, at best, not disproved, from the text of the Bible.

First, no my allegorical interpretation does not depend on the fruit being 'immediately' effective, but unlike you I hold the immediacy to be implied to the phrase 'for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.' Not that it necessarily needs to be understood that way, of course, but it looks a lot like an idiom and in the context of the warning it somewhat loses its effect if immediacy isn't somehow 'understood'. That coupled with the repetitions in 'For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.' (which repeats from the first phrase, 'in the day') and in 'And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.' (the repeat of 'eyes were opened') gives a very strong impression. Plus while you seem to be talking about the fruit like it's essentially normal but as it's digested conveys the knowledge of good and evil over time (an unlikely proposition), I have no trouble seeing the fruit as acting immediately given that sewing fig leaves together is a job that actually would take time. That and the fact their eyes aren't literally opened, it's a common metaphor they were always able to see, adds to the implication of a swift and sudden change.

There is no way 'Good and Evil' can mean all things because Adam and Eve clearly don't gain a knowledge of all things. That said, innocence is a bigger concept than just doing something bad, Genesis 2-3 doesn't use that word either but it's hard not to understand it from their reaction to being naked even though (or perhaps because) in a of its self being naked is not rationally anything to be embarrassed about.

That said I see no reason to think that Adam and his Woman didn't have a conscience, it just had never been tested. In principle then, the fruit from the tree is just fruit. The problem is caused by the fact God has instructed them not to eat from it and they do. The reaction they suffer is from the first piece of knowledge they receive which is the knowledge they have disobeyed God and the associated guilt. Which I'm fairly sure is the basic allegorical reading.

However you can't compare Genesis to a growing baby. A baby grows continuously without interruption from conception to birth and indeed (and sometimes sooner) death. The Genesis account is broken the stories do not necessarily connect to each other directly and sometimes time jumps about a bit.

Where would I say Genesis stops being allegorical? I like to say the flood narrative because of what that seems to be trying to do. It really wants us to believe all the nations in the text from this point descend from Noah and I don't know how to allegoricalize that.

Of course, you make think now that I have no trouble doing as much with the creation story which also says that man is descended from two parents. That is true but Genesis 2 can be seen as teaching that man descends from a common ancestor with a common father: God. Once this has been done is doesn't need to be done twice.

Essentially the table of nations have three different common fathers and one common grandfather so the meaning seems a bit different and thus to suggest something more historic.

Unfortunately I also know the archaeological evidence against the literal truth of the flood narrative is also particularly strong. I can conceive suspicions but it's hard to reconcile, if I'm honest.

Ah, right. So we seem to be communicatively suggesting here, that we have a word for the concept 'innocent' even though innocence does not in fact exist in the world any more and as you say we have no experience of and can't comprehend. That means our concept probably can't be entirely correct and undermines the argument. This argument doesn't work since i can't be sure my concept of anything is entirely identical to anyone else's and, indeed, have reason to suspect it probably isn't.

Did He? How God actually communicates to the Patriarchs is something I always wonder about. We always imagine He comes along and whispers in their ear in English - because that's what our Bibles are written in - even when we know the language He might have spoken may even predate Hebrew. But there is always the suspicion the Bible texts are written that way because it's how writing works and the only way the Bible alone can communicate its meaning. I often suspect God communicates with us (including the Patriarchs) rather more subtly unless there's strong testimony to suggest He performed a miraculous intercession.
So while He communicated in some way. Saying He 'spoke' in language as we understand it is hard to take.

This is one of the points I feel I may have lost my thread in the time since i original wrote this. I think the 'left to the imagination' part is probably the wisest part of the argument. I can no longer remember why I thought what she said was pertinent to the serpent's response. All I remember was that I was pretty sure the top of my argument was that it is also left to the imagination how she received the instruction forbidding her from eating from the tree.

But on the matter of 'why?', she seemed to give the 'why?' pretty well when answering the serpent. It's the one bit she definitely got right. I'd have thought that if she understood the word 'death' as you claim she did above she wouldn't need a deeper answer. The only way she couldn't understand the danger of the tree would be that she doesn't really understand what death is and thus what the warning pertains to.

As I said, I think that Adam and Eve rebelled on the Sabbath while God was away 'resting' (ceasing) the reason I think the Bible implied this is because in the first part of the story the bracketing lines are 'there was evening and there was morning the - day'. Except on day 7. On day seven, no evening comes and the day does not end. But then Adam and his Woman eat from the tree and then run off to hide when God comes for a walk in the 'cool of the day' which is the evening which suggest the evening we haven't yet got at the end of day seven. Which is why I think the fall took place on the seventh day and think that's what the Bible suggests. I not exactly rock solid, but it is there.

I don't know why your mentioning bread. I can't see bread mentioned anywhere in the opening chapters of Genesis prior to God passing sentence, Adam and his Wife eat fruit from trees. Which God still suggests they will afterwards as well. But bread is made from cereal crops and I don't see any mention of them in Eden.

I agree bread takes time to learn to make but that is very hard work, grinding flour, and I see no reason to see this as anything other than part of the punishment and something Adam will have to learn to do if he is to survive after the expulsion.

Do I think they had sex before the fall? Goodness knows, I think the general understand is that having reckless sex was the fall, it connects 'knowledge' as in 'fruit from the tree of...' and 'know' as in the standard euphemism for sex through most of the early Bible.

Anyone can see these contradictions once pointed out. And I may have been unfair on atheists. I know Christians have seen their own share of contradictions in the Bible text, some of which may be pertinent to the current discussion.

But I'm struggling to know how to take your belief, you neither seem to believe that the book of Genesis was written by Moses (the traditional opinion) nor that it was written in the Kingdom of Israel (the modern critical view). So I'm not sure what evidence you are getting to make you think the strange things you do about the texts.

Certainly the Bible doesn't say Noah took any texts onto the Ark, certainly not any written by Adam and Eve which I think you are suggesting (who says Adam and Eve were literate?) and unless he did the flood would have destroyed it. Also if the second one was written pre-Babel there's a good chance no-one would be able to understand it. Also when Jacob fled from Esau he wasn't particularly God-fearing so I doubt he'd have taken any texts with him and since the Bible doesn't really record him going back to his old home much before Isaac died it seems unlikely he'd have picked any up which he'd need to take into Egypt with him.  And the Bible doesn't say he did that. Unless you have some other explanation for this I can't see.

Let my imagination be guided be the text? I'm not sure if you're complimenting me or criticising me here. I hope it's the former I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to let my imagination run wild apart from the text that's the surest way to just make up stuff.

Hmm, I kind have answer your question "what do I believe?" As I go. I don't believe that the texts of Genesis 1 and 2-4 existed back in the day. I believe they were written by Moses inspired by and guided by God. I don't believe God necessarily spoke them to Moses verbatim but I believe He was very careful to limit important error on Moses's part.

I believe the second narrative certainly supplements the fourth but it does not pass the seventh day (though I'm open to the possibility it does) but I have thought a lot about how to reconcile the texts to both each other and to modern science. I certainly don't believe how difficult writing might have been limits the text or what God intends to believe in any way.

[CST]

But you ask what I believe, here is what I answer. I believe that the story of Genesis 2-4 is allegory, I am aware for a Jewish translation I have read that the names of at least two of the rivers make puns, in Hebrew, with words and phrases later in the text. This is a good part of their relevance.

I believe we live in a physical world that is material nature. There is another world or, quite probably, number of worlds that a spiritual in nature that underlie this world. I do not know what happens in these worlds and it is difficult or impossible to describe literally in human language so the Bible describes them in allegory.

I believe science describes the properties of the physical world we live very effectively, remembering it is open to correction, but it cannot describe the transcendent world(s). However, I am aware God make have created the world with the appearance of having a scientific history it does not actually have for His own reasons, perhaps to give us things to discover.

In the same way I believe it is possible that the human animal can sometimes engage with and access at least one of the spiritual realms and what happens there may effect what happens when we return here. I believe a good part of us may even have begun there and the Genesis account may describe something that happened in that realm which spectacularly polluted this one.

I acknowledge that what the Genesis account describes may be historical and because of the unfathomable greatness of God it can be reconciled to what science says in way we cannot comprehend.

But I don't believe God revealed this story to us purely as and exercise in telling us the history of our species. We don't read it purely as history, we read it to learn, to try and gleam whatever lessons God is trying to impart to us. And that doesn't require it to be historical and, indeed, works better if it isn't.

I doubt the Genesis account is historical the way a lot of people want it to be. I have multiple reasons, from the text and from my understanding of God,  for thinking it is an allegory which are to complex to go into here. But here's the most important thing I believe: on this matter God isn't asking me to choose. I think about it and try to choose because thinking about it can make me consider how I understand the texts and because humans are asking me to and the conversation can also further understand.

I believe there are many points of faith the Bible has revealed and thus God is asking me to choose about them, but I don't think this is one of them. I feel the is a danger of diminishing God is we trying to say He wants us to choose or that the text must be understood either historically or allegorically but not both. Certainly being historical doesn't stop the history involved being planned by God for the use of allegory later.

Do I believe on the 8th day everything was done? No, because things are still happening but I believe God ceased creating on the seventh day because it says so and therefore anything that occurs or is created since can only be produced my that process. And again I don't believe there was bread in Eden, it was something Adam and Eve had to learn to do after they were exiled. In a sense man created bread but he could only do so because of what God had previously provided.

Yeah, you say Eve didn't have a name but: "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." (Genesis 2:23) I don'really know how to take the phrase "she shall be called Woman" (while I recognise the capitalisation may not belong') without allowing that Adam named her.

God created us to express His love and so we could express His love as our own to each other. This I believe.

And do I believe He foreknew the fall before it happened? Yes, I most certainly do and I believe that is what the Bible clearly teaches and it is necessary for God to genuinely love us as His children.

The reason for this is that if we are the result of an unintended and unforeseen (by God) 'accident', IE human sin, then if means we are essentially the product of an event God did not wish to happen. Instead God want something else - man not sinning - to happen and wanted the sin free world which whatever being would be produced in that process, which wouldn't be us.

I this picture God doesn't want us, He's simply stuck with us because Adam disobeyed Him and produced a world God did expect or want. How can God love us of we're always second to something He actually wanted, if we're something He has to put up with instead of something He actually desired from the first.

I already find it hard enough to believe God loves me, the evidence of my 'life' and being seems to be against it. But I try, whenever I think like this I try my best (and it's very difficult) to cleave to this motto paraphrased from Coldplay: "Don't ever say we are not loved by God when we are the children He made." God made us and he didn't do it accidentally, there were many other beings that could have existed in our place but we are the ones that exist and we exist because we are the ones God chose to make not just the ones that happened to come into existence because of the sin of Adam. I feel this is what makes each of us special before God in a way us being random beings doesn't.

I know roughly why you think you way you do; I haven't read Creation Hymn but I have read a lot of the thread on it including where you discussed this with Abigail.

As I recall I revolved around the phrase 'foundation of the Earth' in the passage "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8) - certainly a difficult passage. Before I adopted UR it looked so like God had chosen everyone who He was going to save from before they were even born, what hope did those He hadn't chosen to save have? I tended to worry particularly against any babies produced by illicit unions. Surely such children won't be in the book of like as that would sanction sin, wouldn't it? I found it hard to see any illegitimate children going to Heaven even when it obviously wasn't there fault they were illegitimate.

Your argument, as I recall, states that 'foundation' is a wilful mistranslation of a word that, according to you, should mean 'disruption'. You reached this conclusion from the fact that the Greek words behind it mean 'throwing' and 'down'. Personally, I think 'disruption' is a somewhat weaker term than 'throwdown' but for now I'll accept the premise.

I feel you may have made two errors here. First, I suspect you have committed the 'root fallacy' I'm not entirely big on objection to the root fallacy, it seems to be a move to shut down argument but the basic premise is that language evolves so that words sometimes grow beyond the words that originally composed them so that looking at them can lead to false conclusions because they may no longer have anything to do with the words that are made of. Abigail seemed to be of the impression that she'd found you were right and literally translations use the word 'disruption'. The don't so far as I can see. all the translations I'm looking at say 'foundation' or a variant, or a phrase that means 'foundation' is they're free-form.

The second mistake, I think you've made is the jump to the conclusion that 'disruption' means the fall of man, which I might. But, as far as I can tell, it might just as easily be the fall of Satan of some other disruption if you believe as I think you do.

You also talked about the word 'foreknowledge', taken from the words for 'know' and 'before', quite unsurprisingly. The play you seemed to make here was the reverse the root fallacy. As if the words should not have been put together to make the word 'foreknew' even though in the majority of uses it refers to God and seems to mean exactly that. Here's a important use which I have amended slightly is keeping with what we discussed:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreknown before the disruption of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1 Peter 1:18-20)

I've made a couple of changes to the standard KJV text there to help the discussion, I've added your word disruption' where foundation usually is and I've put the word 'foreknown' where the word  foreordained was.

This would seem difficult for your argument; it says, quite clearly, God foreknew (it doesn't say 'God' but it must mean God because if not, who?) Jesus and the sacrifice He was going to make not at the disruption of the world but very clearly before it. If God knew how He was going to know how He was going to correct the sin before it happened it's hard not to think He knew the sin was going to happen before it happen

It's difficult to accept there's a mistake in the translation of disruption here.  Greek doesn't seem to be that difficult to translate, unlike Hebrew. There are much fewer footnotes in the Greek 'Meaning of Greek uncertain' then there are for the Masoretic Hebrew in The Old Testament. Also the word for foundation appears 11 times in the Greek text. It is translated 'foundation' 10 of those times and 'to conceive' (in conjunction with something else). Given that 'foundation' and 'disruption' are drastically different words it's hard to see why this never causes problems.

The Bible seems to teach exactly what we think it does traditionally. I more normal reasoning, it seems impossible God could not have foreknown the fall. It was clearly possible, because it happened, and God must know all that is possible especially since He did nothing to prevent it. Given enough time it's hard not to see the fall as inevitable which means somehow God must have foreknown it. maybe He didn't now exactly when it would occur (though I expect He did) but He clearly foreknew it would eventually occur)

It doesn't seem very accurate, it seems to be a word that is translated fill 107 times and replenish 7 that hardly looks like an accurate translation. I imagine the translators of the KJV (or earlier) had an idea in their heads but I can't see what it was and the modern ones (especially the literal ones) tend to say 'fill'. I suspect fill is correct but the word is an interesting one as it does seem to  suggest in many of it's translations some sort of goal for man in creation which modern science often seeks to deny. I can't see how this is relevant to what I said at this point though.

Tohu bohu seems to be a term that people can't actually agree on the meaning of, in some translations it might be taken as describing something before the world was made but that implication could easily be incorrect so vague those translations are. You can't describe 'nothing' in any positive terms because it defies description. Translations of tohu bohu often seem to fit this bill.

Sorry that this may have become messy, it's taken a long time to write and I've lost my thread at several points.

[Eleutheros]

Hey CST!

Man o' man do I love your reply!

It's for replies like yours that I put myself, "out there;" for I desire to be challenged in my understanding simply because I can't think of every thing; and, most certainly, I've learned not to believe everything I think!

So, thank you for all that typing. Please know that I appreciate the time you spent sharing your heart with me.

However, it will be a while before I can reply "mano a mano" because you've given me a lot to contemplate.

In the meantime, could I please ask you to read Creation Hymn? It is a story, and so it puts a cohesiveness to this strange understanding I've concluded during the many years I've studied and contemplated the Genesis account; time spent studying, not just the text, but the entire Bible, Logic, Jewish history and theology, the history of world civilizations and church history including the Roman world of the first Christians, the origins of the KJV, including the life of that good ol' king himself, and the lives and theology of the men of religious and political influence during the middle ages, notably Augustine of Hippo, John Calvin and Joseph Arminius.

Also, in my intro to Creation Hymn, I link you to what seems to have become a much viewed thread since I concluded it way back in 2008. If you are interested, it delves deeper into my understanding, especially concerning the words "katabole" and "themilios," as I engage "Doc" in a discussion on the merits of my understanding. It's a very long read, but it is my heart.

Right now I am finishing my fall semester. After that, I will endeavor to provide you with my specific answers to your challenges. However, please know that I am not interested in convincing you to accept my understanding; paradigm shifting utilizing mere words is not possible, apart from Jehovah's intervention.

So, for knowing this, please retain in your heart about me that the two reasons I post are because I wish to be challenged so I may improve my understanding; after all the only person I need to convince of the truth is myself. And I post because my understanding created a huge, new paradigm in me - a paradigm so profound that it changed the entire viewpoint of my heart toward both God and Mankind because it gave my heart something to respect in both of them. Therefore, I post because I am hoping that it might make a difference to the hearts of any who can receive it, which would be anyone who has perceived the ugliness in the personality of the God who knew, as a fact, that The Awdam were going to turn before He created them, yet created them anyway; and, who, for their perceptions of Jehovah, perceptions gleaned logically from what is written in the KJV, have a tenuous and uncomfortable faith.

For that, I note that many Christians seem to have no problem accepting the God Who foreknew the fall as a fact before it happened, and so, I am happy for them for as long as they can continue to walk in fear before Him. After all, the fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom.

So, CST, until we read again, be good! After all, it is what you were created to be (and what's wrong with thinking that... besides it not being the truth?  :winkgrin:).

[CST]

Hopefully, I'll have read Creation Hymn by the time you finish what you are doing. I was going to print it out now but ran into several difficulties including the cost of doing it here. I can do it elsewhere for less so I'll try to remember to do it another time.

I honest I am not worried about the implications of God knew of the fall before it happened which you seem to see, if I want to worry about things I'm more inclined to worry about why God didn't let John tell us what the seven thunders said and so far as I can tell John wasn't worried about God's intent in keeping that from us so why should I be.

Is that last sentiment right, it seems to be self-contradictory?

[eaglesway]

In the same way I believe it is possible that the human animal can sometimes engage with and access at least one of the spiritual realms and what happens there may effect what happens when we return here. I believe a good part of us may even have begun there and the Genesis account may describe something that happened in that realm which spectacularly polluted this one.

I acknowledge that what the Genesis account describes may be historical and because of the unfathomable greatness of God it can be reconciled to what science says in way we cannot comprehend.

I believe these two things can both be true.

I especially agree that the story of the fall(whether as metaphor or history or both) took place in the "world" underlying this one, a world from which Adam and Eve, the serpent and all their progeny(literal, metaphorical or both) were prevented from re-entering by a "flaming sword", and Behold, James says the tongue is a flame that sets the whole world on fire when it is fed by the wrong well, and that "this wisdom is earthly, sensual, and demonic".

Then we see that we are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus and have access "through a new and living way" through the veil- having our hearts cleansed from an evil consciousness and our bodies washed with pure water (death of the "old man" who is "earthly, sensual and demonic).

So even earlier in Genesis, whether the creation itself is seen as "history" or "metaphor" the revelation that is most important is what these words communicate....(I will speak to you in parables mysteries hidden from the foundation/formation of the world)

"In the beginning the earth was without form and void(the double minded man is unstable in all His ways)

And darkness covered the face of the deep(to be carnally minded is death)

And the Spirit hovered over the face of the waters(The Spirit is in the world to convince men of the centrality of Jesus Christ to all things/consciousness/worlds/heavens...to exalt Jesus as Messiah, Savior and Lord)

And God spoke  (made manifest, LOGOS-expressed thought/word)


"Let there be light" (God reveals the light into the carnal darkness/death/confusion- without form and voidness "I Am The Light Of The World")

And there was light and God saw that it was good 

("And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren"....And there it is- Romans 8 holds the solution to the creation/fall dilema- the reason/answer to the mystery/question is reformation of all things, God becomes all in all as Christ gathers all things into one.)

And there was evening and morning -the first day

Light separated from darkness, The mind set on the flesh is death(without form and void) the mind set on the spirit is life and peace(creation, restoration, newness of life- in the image of Christ)

Walk as children of the Day

Awake O Sleeper and Rise from amongst the dead and the Light of Christ will shine on you

And God created man and woman, in His own image He created them. That seed of creation through chaos(Spirit breathed into dust) is also explained in 2 Cor 4....

Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God(Earthly, sensual, demonic; without form and void of the image of Christ; carnally minded in death) but by the manifestation of truth(LOGOS, expressed thought in the image/spirit of Christ) commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God(Let there be LIGHT!). 3And even if our gospel is veiled(darkness), it is veiled to those who are perishing (appolumi/death), 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord(the first thought expressed out of the darkness of mystery, the "depths of God" is a Lamb slain, become Lord the throne of all existence being His love-"THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE SAYS, 'BEHOLD I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW'") and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake(The First fruits IN HIS IMAGE). 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ(Lanterns/lamps in a dark generation-"Be saved from this perverse generation!"-out of Adam/death/voidness into Messiah/life/fulness in His image/spirit))
      7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested() in our body(Light shines out of Darkness! Overcoming the darkness/chaos/void). 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death works in us, but life in you.

So Jesus says through John

Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. 6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans(earthly, sensual, demonic) which I also hate. 7'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes(wisdom from "above"), I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Full circle back to the Garden, fiery sword removed from the entrance and planted in the heart of faith, seated with Christ in the heavenly realms(Eph1&2, Col 3)

"He who overcomes will sit with me on my throne(love)"

In Philippians 2;6-11 Jesus passes through the chaos, subjects Himself to death, in order to show us "The Way". Laying it down. Accepting death. For the joy set before Him- that joy being all creation saved- every soul delivered out of Adam/chaos/death/emptiness into Christ/harmony/life/fulness. From a seed in Mary's womb(without form) to the center of all things, the fountainhead of living water, the wisdom and the power of God.

And, sorry to carry on, but LOL

This pattern is seen also in Eph 3....

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief(Eph 1:9-11). 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit(Romans 16:25-27); 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers(Let There Be Light!) of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery(Eph 1:9-11) which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God(LOGOS- LET THERE BE LIGHT) might now be made known through the church(Ecclesia- first fruits) to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places(All worlds are seeing/learning the glory of God through Christ and the first fruit). 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose(Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and confident access(Hearts sprinkled clean) through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory(light out of darkness, life out of death, glory out of ignominy, exaltation out of humiliation).

      14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

This the prayer that every one who is of the first fruits prays for the world- the mission and the joy set before the sons and daughters of God. The heart of their endurance is in sharing this with Messiah.

It is the place where we find union.....

"That they may be one, even as you and I are one- that I am in you and you are in me and I am in them" until God is "all in all"

It's all right there in the first few chapters of Genesis LOLOL

      20Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

In every generation, unto the age of the ages, "worlds without end" will find their summation, union and restoration in the glory of God until all the veils are rolled away and the voice of God will be heard as the voices of myriads of angels and the ecclesia and all the full harvest of the ages of the earth..... no more emptiness- all will be filled when God is all in all.... no more chaos, not one drop of confusion, because all will be gathered into one in Christ, and He will return it to the Father..... to whom be the glory forever.

What? if Christ returns all back to His Father.... what part would you keep? Your honor? Your stuff? Some person? Some enmity?

Better give it all up, give all back to God, get low and stay there- because God will find us there together and He will lift us up when he can trust us to stay where we ought to stay....

"Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God and at the proper time He will lift you up...(light out of darkness)

"Let patience have it perfect work that you may be whole and complete, lacking nothing....(light out of darkness)

"I am the potter you are the clay. How shall the clay say to the potter, "Why have you made me thus....(light out of darkness)

Again in Romans 8

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

      18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to usThe Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.(light out of darkness)

       19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God(Light out of darkness).

22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. (Light out of darkness)

Again Acts 17

Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you(In the beginning was the word). 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;(and the Word was God) 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things(All things were created through Him); 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation(The earth was without form and void), 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him(and darkness covered the face of the deep), though He is not far from each one of us(and the Spirit hovered over the waters); 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children(For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God).. Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature(For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse)is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man(For He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact expression of His nature, through whom he created the worlds). 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance (For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God) God is now declaring to men(And God said) that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day(light out of darkness) in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."(Let There Be Light)

Its just too, too much. My mind is blown. See ya later :o)

[CST]

Indeed, the premise of a large portion of things that seem irreconcilable to us are in fact not irreconcilable at all but only seem so due to our limited perception of a very small part of the universe, namely the part and moment we inhabit we have direct access to no other parts or moments.

In this case though while I believe that 'the fall' occurred in a transcendental realm I do want to make clear that I do believe humans existed in the material world since their creation, the spirits of Adam and Eve weren't forcibly migrated into the apes that then evolved into the first humans. A perception I now fear can be drawn from a lack of clarity in what I said.

You've managed to enter into a very impressive allegorical mindset there, which will certainly be correct provided it actually fits to the terms involved although I'm not convinced early Hebrews could have seen it that way easily, not without the New Testaments texts you're citing.

Still I now have license to 'go there' if I need to later and explain exactly how I currently understand the first three or four chapters of Genesis, noting though that they are continually subject to revision.

My mind is blown too. Hence why I haven't tried to engage with specific details of the rest of your post and, indeed may not have properly understood what I have responded to.

[rosered]

 :HeartThrob:   :dsunny:

  GODS AMAZING GRACE ..  How sweet the sound!!

Just saw Johns Post !!!   all I can say is the Holy Sprint is speaking and teaching right now BIG TIME    :HeartThrob:

LOVE THIS   ,WOWZA   :banana:   !! I do not always read everything  when it comes on here  , Sure should though ...

I am blown away also ... :HeartThrob:

  ps   CST , It is by the Holy Sprint  teaching  us  that we  learn , know and   share everything in common  with one another 

[jugghead]

As I was reading these latest posts, the words "keys to the kingdom" was brought to the forefront of my mind, which of course lead me to:

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19)

which then lead me to:

"Woe unto you lawyers for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." (Luke 11:52).

Seeing the words "the key of knowledge" in its original meanings is "a shutting in of knowing", then with what immediately popped into my head was "The sealing of the Holy Spirit" for His Spirit "is" our knowing which is the mind of Christ as a crown in which Rose stated.

In which "a shutting in of knowing" can also be understood as: being taken out of this world: out of its way of thinking. "Our kingdom is not of this world"

What are lawyers but "interpreters of the law" and they take away the key of knowledge, the shutting in of knowing, the seal of the Holy Spirit ...... not only from themselves (ye entered not in yourselves) but from those who are trying to enter in by preaching works ....

You cannot enter in unless .....

In the last paragraph that EW wrote, I saw the locks being opened, and from what I have come to understand is that Genesis Chapter one is the key that is given when understood spiritually ...... I am not trying to take away anything from its interpretation of the creation of the physical, but it is the mysteries hidden within that are revealed to those who believe, for all things are possible with God.

Genesis chapter One is the pattern in which all understandings are patterned after "seed after its kind"

And the earth brought forth grass ...... out of the dust God formed the body of Adam, the corruptible flesh that is compared to grass that will be burned up.

and also in the words of EW ....... Its just too, too much. My mind is blown.

my mind has just been flooded with thought so must take a rest to reflect

Blessings

[marie glen]

He is so wonderful.. so infinitely wise.. So much so that every single rational creature will be sealed into His Spirit and Truth.. Like Rose said in another thread.. the mind of Christ as the crown of Life..

And others speaking of the seed of each thing being in itself.. What better way to learn the One Way of Life, than to experience the other way.. Or what better way to love the Light, than to have experienced the chaos and darkness? And chaos and darkness? The wrong way.. It's powerful. I used to wonder, why did the animals become predatory? and so very quickly? Because the way of self.. becomes dog eat dog. (And is basically a bottomless pit of dark choas of possibility.)
- How glorious that He is Love. And that makes love to be life. There's no other way. Because the 'other' way leads to destruction, ruin, loss.. chaos, darkness.. and I believe ultimately, without His rescue, annihilation. Because dark is the opposite of light. And light is the opposite of darkness. And you can't ultimately have both. But "with God all things are possible" and so we "children of men are not consumed..". Because He is faithful.
             :Chinscratch: That's interesting.. that it's all right there in those beginning chapters of Genesis.. And I've always felt the last two chapters of Revelation, somehow parallel them.
  Great insights! Being taught of God, is anything but boring! :cloud9: :dsunny:

[CST]

:HeartThrob:   :dsunny:

  GODS AMAZING GRACE ..  How sweet the sound!!

Just saw Johns Post !!!   all I can say is the Holy Sprint is speaking and teaching right now BIG TIME    :HeartThrob:

LOVE THIS   ,WOWZA   :banana:   !! I do not always read everything  when it comes on here  , Sure should though ...

I am blown away also ... :HeartThrob:

  ps   CST , It is by the Holy Sprint  teaching  us  that we  learn , know and   share everything in common  with one another

Thank you, Rose, bless you!

As I was reading these latest posts, the words "keys to the kingdom" was brought to the forefront of my mind, which of course lead me to:

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19)

which then lead me to:

"Woe unto you lawyers for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." (Luke 11:52).

Seeing the words "the key of knowledge" in its original meanings is "a shutting in of knowing", then with what immediately popped into my head was "The sealing of the Holy Spirit" for His Spirit "is" our knowing which is the mind of Christ as a crown in which Rose stated.

In which "a shutting in of knowing" can also be understood as: being taken out of this world: out of its way of thinking. "Our kingdom is not of this world"

What are lawyers but "interpreters of the law" and they take away the key of knowledge, the shutting in of knowing, the seal of the Holy Spirit ...... not only from themselves (ye entered not in yourselves) but from those who are trying to enter in by preaching works ....

You cannot enter in unless .....

In the last paragraph that EW wrote, I saw the locks being opened, and from what I have come to understand is that Genesis Chapter one is the key that is given when understood spiritually ...... I am not trying to take away anything from its interpretation of the creation of the physical, but it is the mysteries hidden within that are revealed to those who believe, for all things are possible with God.

Genesis chapter One is the pattern in which all understandings are patterned after "seed after its kind"

And the earth brought forth grass ...... out of the dust God formed the body of Adam, the corruptible flesh that is compared to grass that will be burned up.

and also in the words of EW ....... Its just too, too much. My mind is blown.

my mind has just been flooded with thought so must take a rest to reflect

Blessings

Interesting, as I said above (vaguely) interpretations that take you far away from the original text can often seem difficult for others who disagree to even comprehend how they were reached. But the opening chapters of Genesis are a particularly interesting point, after all it's hard to see how a literal knowledge of how God created the universe can contribute anything to our spiritual growth and knowledge of God. Given how specific Genesis 1 seems very broad reinterpretations seem likely.

He is so wonderful.. so infinitely wise.. So much so that every single rational creature will be sealed into His Spirit and Truth.. Like Rose said in another thread.. the mind of Christ as the crown of Life..

And others speaking of the seed of each thing being in itself.. What better way to learn the One Way of Life, than to experience the other way.. Or what better way to love the Light, than to have experienced the chaos and darkness? And chaos and darkness? The wrong way.. It's powerful. I used to wonder, why did the animals become predatory? and so very quickly? Because the way of self.. becomes dog eat dog. (And is basically a bottomless pit of dark choas of possibility.)
- How glorious that He is Love. And that makes love to be life. There's no other way. Because the 'other' way leads to destruction, ruin, loss.. chaos, darkness.. and I believe ultimately, without His rescue, annihilation. Because dark is the opposite of light. And light is the opposite of darkness. And you can't ultimately have both. But "with God all things are possible" and so we "children of men are not consumed..". Because He is faithful.
             :Chinscratch: That's interesting.. that it's all right there in those beginning chapters of Genesis.. And I've always felt the last two chapters of Revelation, somehow parallel them.
  Great insights! Being taught of God, is anything but boring! :cloud9: :dsunny:

Indeed but...

  Great insights! Being taught of God, is anything but boring! :cloud9: :dsunny:

I don't know, even though I've thought increased understanding would result in increased interest I really don't currently know how to change the fact that Numbers 7 is pretty boring.

[MusicLover123]

Great insights! Being taught of God, is anything but boring! :cloud9: :dsunny:

I don't know Marie Glen, as CST mentioned, Numbers can turn out to be pretty boring at times.  :laughing7:

One interesting thing to note though, is that boredom denotes purpose. If I feel something antithetical at a moment in time, then that antithesis points to something inherent. It is not what the secular existentialists say, where we have no inherent purpose, where we are a puddle of jelly and free to make ourselves into an image that we see fit. When I look into a mirror, I do not see something I will be, I see something that I am, just as He is. God has made purpose in us, and has crafted us in our mother's womb (Psalms 22)

9For thou [art] He bringing me forth from the womb, Causing me to trust, On the breasts of my mother.

He has made purpose in us, before the world began (Ephesians 1)

4according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love

He has determined our destiny, to be in Him, not because of my will, but of His (Romans 8)

20for to vanity was the creation made subject-not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -in hope,

21that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

22for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

23And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting-the redemption of our bodies

When we are in a state of learning, we learn to be as God is. God has placed Christ in us(inherent purpose) to become like him, to become perfect and changeless(destiny.) Just as a seed in planted in by the Gardener, so too He plants us in the ground, enriching us with the Water of Life, and nourishing us with the Tree of Life, in order to sprout out like a flower and become anew in glorified bodies. These things of now, they are purposed in Him. These things are a shadow of things to come. An Image. A Reflection. That all fullness should dwell in Him. This purpose is all around us. All you have to do is be still and listen...

Also, beautiful posts, guys. Really appreciate the words of others here.

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

All you have to do is be still and listen...
           ...Really appreciate the words of others here.

Me too! Especially when His kingdom is said to be like a garden.. Which of course is what He created in the beginning! And we bear fruit by abiding in Him.. Jesus being the vine and the Father is the husbandman/farmer.. And He waits patiently for the fruit of the earth.. there being two harvests.. the maturing of truth and some of the children of God, and the maturing of error, called the harvest of grapes of wrath.. fruits of good and evil, an illustration to teach all in heaven and earth.

Flowers which keep their faces turned toward the light that they may grow.. Trees, reaching, reaching toward the heavens.. full of sap of the LORD.. Like trees planted by rivers of water, whose leaves won't wither even in old age.. Heart can not even imagine all that He has created for those who love Him.. The kingdom becoming (like) the tallest tree in the field..
    :Peace2: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

I don't know, even though I've thought increased understanding would result in increased interest I really don't currently know how to change the fact that Numbers 7 is pretty boring.

    ...it's also one long chapter! :faint: :laugh2: - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+7&version=NKJV

[MusicLover123]

...And we bear fruit by abiding in Him.. Jesus being the vine and the Father is the husbandman/farmer.. And He waits patiently for the fruit of the earth.

Would it be appropriate to say that Christ is a seed in us, and His Spirit nourishes it over time, while the Father is the Gardener who plants that seed and grows it when He desires? That is why when it says that "I must decrease, and He must increase in me" because carnal man is like weeds in soil, and spiritual man is like flowers in soil. At least, that's what I have an idea on...

:cloud9: :declare: :Peace2:

[marie glen]

Would it be appropriate to say that Christ is a seed in us, and His Spirit nourishes it over time, while the Father is the Gardener who plants that seed and grows it when He desires? That is why when it says that "I must decrease, and He must increase in me" because carnal man is like weeds in soil, and spiritual man is like flowers in soil. At least, that's what I have an idea on...

:cloud9: :declare: :Peace2:

Amen! :thumbsup: He must increase in us (in me!) and we (me) decrease.

He will shine through all.. And it begins in each one of us! ..."each one in his own order"..

[jugghead]

As our understanding of God increases so does our ignorance of Him (of which we were, old man) decrease, for it is the man of ignorance that dies daily as we eat of the daily manna sent from heaven.

[MusicLover123]

As our understanding of God increases so does our ignorance of Him (of which we were, old man) decrease, for it is the man of ignorance that dies daily as we eat of the daily manna sent from heaven.

Does this manna ever get stale? Is the carnal man allergic, or dislike the taste?

[sheila]

manna over 2 days old bred worms...truebread from heaven/hidden manna/hidden in Christ....does  not see corruption. :2c:

[MusicLover123]

manna over 2 days old bred worms...truebread from heaven/hidden manna/hidden in Christ....does  not see corruption. :2c:

Not really sure why that was my question. Just popped in my head right when I saw Rick's response.

Also, would you say the manna kills off the old nature, or does it give life to it, bringing in the new one?

[sheila]

hmm...wemust LIVE by every wordthat comes from the mouth of God.  the old law covenant was good food in it'stime..served

it'spurpose as atutourtolead to Christ .IKILL..and Imake  alive comes to mind.  God putting to death/condemning sin in the flesh

but quickening the spirit and giving eternal life in the spirit

[jugghead]

manna over 2 days old bred worms...truebread from heaven/hidden manna/hidden in Christ....does  not see corruption. :2c:

Not really sure why that was my question. Just popped in my head right when I saw Rick's response.

Also, would you say the manna kills off the old nature, or does it give life to it, bringing in the new one?

For me it the understanding of the difference between "just surviving" (old nature) and "living" (new nature).....

"just surviving" is "instinctual" ... like in the animal nature .... it has to kill in order to remain alive which I understand as "it has 'to do' something in order to remain alive, which is just another way of understanding "it has to work in order to remain alive"

BUT

"living" is "a going against that instinctual nature" .... it is rest ... in the concept of: remaining and He brings the food to us, but also that in our appointed time He leads us into the wedding feast, which again is being seated at a table (rest) while at the same time He is the One that serves the food to us, knowing which food has to be served first (milk) before He gives us meat.

He is the One that causes our growth and He is the One that knows the time in which to serve it ... it is all HIS WORK in us so that no man can boast, boast in his own works.

It is "an eating" of His works in/by/through us (from above) not "an eating" of our works in/by/through us (from below)

Which is a deeper understanding of (a depth of) "focusing on things above and not on the things below"

I can no longer look to the world for understanding, in other words, I can no longer look to the things happening in this world or things that might happen for understanding, I look to Him and see that all the things that are happening or can happen in the world are just other ways of explaining in more detail the things happening or will happen IN us.

I look to the physical world and all that is in it and see "who I was" and by that I see where I am (not in this world) and by seeing where I am, I also see "who I am now", He (He in me) that has been taken out of this world and its mindset.

Blessings to all