Christian Universalist challenged by passage in Genesis

[CST]

Great insights! Being taught of God, is anything but boring! :cloud9: :dsunny:

I don't know Marie Glen, as CST mentioned, Numbers can turn out to be pretty boring at times.  :laughing7:

One interesting thing to note though, is that boredom denotes purpose. If I feel something antithetical at a moment in time, then that antithesis points to something inherent. It is not what the secular existentialists say, where we have no inherent purpose, where we are a puddle of jelly and free to make ourselves into an image that we see fit. When I look into a mirror, I do not see something I will be, I see something that I am, just as He is. God has made purpose in us, and has crafted us in our mother's womb (Psalms 22)

9For thou [art] He bringing me forth from the womb, Causing me to trust, On the breasts of my mother.

He has made purpose in us, before the world began (Ephesians 1)

4according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love

He has determined our destiny, to be in Him, not because of my will, but of His (Romans 8)

20for to vanity was the creation made subject-not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -in hope,

21that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

22for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

23And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting-the redemption of our bodies

When we are in a state of learning, we learn to be as God is. God has placed Christ in us(inherent purpose) to become like him, to become perfect and changeless(destiny.) Just as a seed in planted in by the Gardener, so too He plants us in the ground, enriching us with the Water of Life, and nourishing us with the Tree of Life, in order to sprout out like a flower and become anew in glorified bodies. These things of now, they are purposed in Him. These things are a shadow of things to come. An Image. A Reflection. That all fullness should dwell in Him. This purpose is all around us. All you have to do is be still and listen...

Also, beautiful posts, guys. Really appreciate the words of others here.

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

Boredom denotes purpose? I'm not sure how that follows, in my experience boredom is produced by a sense of lack of purpose but that doesn't mean that there's any actually purpose to be found even if we feel and believe there is.

"All you have to do is be still and listen..."

Yeah, but if you don't hear anything pretty quickly you're liable to get bored.

All you have to do is be still and listen...
           ...Really appreciate the words of others here.

Me too! Especially when His kingdom is said to be like a garden..

There's a reason for that which may not be what you think it is.

I don't know, even though I've thought increased understanding would result in increased interest I really don't currently know how to change the fact that Numbers 7 is pretty boring.

    ...it's also one long chapter! :faint: :laugh2: - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+7&version=NKJV

Indeed but that why I used it as an example and it probably more boring than similar things elsewhere, if it was split up it may be less boring because at least you'd have the relief of the end of the chapter as a brief respite.

[MusicLover123]

Hmmm, I'm still trying to understand fully what I wrote there.

Maybe a more correct correct term would be fulfilment or completeness? I'm thinking when you feel boredom, it is a lack of fulfilment within yourself. Even if you brought it upon yourself, Is there really any other thing, other than God, where you can tell me that you are "Completely satisfied, that you desire no other thing?" Even if we do a task, or a train of thought, or something else, we normally would eventually move on to something else, right? Even when we feel something is "finished," we go on to return to that very thing we thought was put away.

Also, sometimes being still/placid is necessary, in order to have more focus on your surroundings...

[marie glen]

As much as I love my family and friends, and love conversation about the Lord on the internet with other believers, my favorite times are times of solitude and quietness, which I call quiet time(s) for reading, study, and prayer and quiet pondering/listening. I'm sure everyone knows exactly what I mean.

I have the recurring thought that there will be a day.. a few moments, when all the universe will be gathered around His Throne and all will be in utter silence.. So complete shall be our awe.

[GodIsLove]

Hmmm, I'm still trying to understand fully what I wrote there.

Maybe a more correct correct term would be fulfilment or completeness? I'm thinking when you feel boredom, it is a lack of fulfilment within yourself. Even if you brought it upon yourself, Is there really any other thing, other than God, where you can tell me that you are "Completely satisfied, that you desire no other thing?" Even if we do a task, or a train of thought, or something else, we normally would eventually move on to something else, right? Even when we feel something is "finished," we go on to return to that very thing we thought was put away.

Also, sometimes being still/placid is necessary, in order to have more focus on your surroundings...

This might help—it's been found that creativity actually needs boredom for it to spring forth. Which is why in today's world many people are constantly being entertained by phones, tv, social media, etc that we have forgotten how to sit quietly to let new ideas happen. It's actually huge problem in current childhood development, because gone are the days where kids were sent out to find something to do on their own (and they would come up with new games, elaborate make believe etc) now when kids are faced with free time if they aren't on a device they are often "bored." There's a new recognition happening where we realize kids need unstructured free time without technology or an adult telling them what to do. Somewhat related I think :)

[jugghead]

and another perspective is: in the context of plants ..... boredom is the root of impatience

[MusicLover123]

and another perspective is: in the context of plants ..... boredom is the root of impatience

I'll admit, I do get bored a lot. I don't think it is due to impatience though. More to do with an decreasing satisfaction with most things. Especially even more as of late.

[jugghead]

and another perspective is: in the context of plants ..... boredom is the root of impatience

I'll admit, I do get bored a lot. I don't think it is due to impatience though. More to do with an decreasing satisfaction with most things. Especially even more as of late.

Hate to say it, I didn't say "boredom was due to impatience" I said "impatience was due to boredom"

Boredom is "a wanting to do something" (it's the seed or root) and if you can't find something to do impatience grows like the plant out of that seed or root ..... just like mankind and its heart became bored with waiting for Christ to come, therefore they created in their own minds what He should be like for their benefit (God's chosen people) and that is why they did not recognize Him when He came, they wanted Him to be a conquering Savior over evil men ... rather than a conquering Savior over the evil "IN" men, and that is a missing of the mark.

and what I see in that "decreasing satisfaction" is part of the process of being taken out of this world, out of it's mindset ..... in other words, things in the world are what are becoming boring and that is because He is showing you something that is better ... HIMSELF

Blessings

[MusicLover123]

and another perspective is: in the context of plants ..... boredom is the root of impatience

I'll admit, I do get bored a lot. I don't think it is due to impatience though. More to do with an decreasing satisfaction with most things. Especially even more as of late.

Hate to say it, I didn't say "boredom was due to impatience" I said "impatience was due to boredom"

Boredom is "a wanting to do something" (it's the seed or root) and if you can't find something to do impatience grows like the plant out of that seed or root ..... just like mankind and its heart became bored with waiting for Christ to come, therefore they created in their own minds what He should be like for their benefit (God's chosen people) and that is why they did not recognize Him when He came, they wanted Him to be a conquering Savior over evil men ... rather than a conquering Savior over the evil "IN" men, and that is a missing of the mark.

and what I see in that "decreasing satisfaction" is part of the process of being taken out of this world, out of it's mindset ..... in other words, things in the world are what are becoming boring and that is because He is showing you something that is better ... HIMSELF

Blessings

Ok, I gotcha! My bad, should have understood what you meant more. Thanks for the heads up.  :thumbsup:

Oh, and just to add. Thanks for your thoughts GodIsLove, really appreciate it.  :banana:

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

...And so true GodIsLove, about the children! ...very true indeed...

[CST]

Hmmm, I'm still trying to understand fully what I wrote there.

Maybe a more correct correct term would be fulfilment or completeness? I'm thinking when you feel boredom, it is a lack of fulfilment within yourself. Even if you brought it upon yourself, Is there really any other thing, other than God, where you can tell me that you are "Completely satisfied, that you desire no other thing?" Even if we do a task, or a train of thought, or something else, we normally would eventually move on to something else, right? Even when we feel something is "finished," we go on to return to that very thing we thought was put away.

Also, sometimes being still/placid is necessary, in order to have more focus on your surroundings...

I know how that feels, looking back over what you wrote online and then finding you weren't clear enough to remember what you were trying to say.  I don't think you can bring boredom on yourself though, boredom would seem to be a privation, an absence of something that ideally would be present.

And is there anything other than God people can say they are 'completely satisfied with? Well, the meals they eat usually. When you finish eating your meals you don't immediately go and make another meal to eat, generally. There are lot of things you can be satisfied with, when I get bored it's it's usually because the gap between what I've just satisfactorily finished and what I want to do next is too long to endure without doing anything, but too short to fill with anything else that could actually be finished. Boredom is the result of having time you can't constructively manage.

God makes all things good and nothing is good without God, that doesn't mean you can't describe this that satisfy you that seem to be other than God, it just means that in reality they're not.

As much as I love my family and friends, and love conversation about the Lord on the internet with other believers, my favorite times are times of solitude and quietness, which I call quiet time(s) for reading, study, and prayer and quiet pondering/listening. I'm sure everyone knows exactly what I mean.

I have the recurring thought that there will be a day.. a few moments, when all the universe will be gathered around His Throne and all will be in utter silence.. So complete shall be our awe.

Oh, God no. Some people spun the idea of eternal life because they believe it could only ultimately be boring and they wouldn't be able to fill it. Others think that all of time in the afterlife is exactly what you just described. I reject both notions.

Not that I think there will be nothing like what you say, but I notice there's not a lot of it in the Bible.

Hmmm, I'm still trying to understand fully what I wrote there.

Maybe a more correct correct term would be fulfilment or completeness? I'm thinking when you feel boredom, it is a lack of fulfilment within yourself. Even if you brought it upon yourself, Is there really any other thing, other than God, where you can tell me that you are "Completely satisfied, that you desire no other thing?" Even if we do a task, or a train of thought, or something else, we normally would eventually move on to something else, right? Even when we feel something is "finished," we go on to return to that very thing we thought was put away.

Also, sometimes being still/placid is necessary, in order to have more focus on your surroundings...

This might help—it's been found that creativity actually needs boredom for it to spring forth. Which is why in today's world many people are constantly being entertained by phones, tv, social media, etc that we have forgotten how to sit quietly to let new ideas happen. It's actually huge problem in current childhood development, because gone are the days where kids were sent out to find something to do on their own (and they would come up with new games, elaborate make believe etc) now when kids are faced with free time if they aren't on a device they are often "bored." There's a new recognition happening where we realize kids need unstructured free time without technology or an adult telling them what to do. Somewhat related I think :)

The source and spring of creativity is God and don't think He requires boredom to bring it forth. People are entertained my the thing you describe because that where people express most of their creativity these days. Don't be fooled; txt speak and emoji's are considered creative applications of language by those that use them even if those that don't think they are an abuse.

and another perspective is: in the context of plants ..... boredom is the root of impatience

No, frustration is the root of impatience, boredom is the root of lethargy and lethargy and impatience don't mix.

[jugghead]

No, frustration is the root of impatience, boredom is the root of lethargy and lethargy and impatience don't mix.

All depends on the state of the person at the time of becoming bored

If a person is energetic and becomes bored with what they are doing, they want something else to do and can get frustrated because they can't find something else to do, therefore becoming impatient of wanting something else to do right away

But if a person is not energetic and becomes bored with what they are doing, they will get drowsy

In which I agree with you that lethargy and impatience don't mix

and on a side note,
if we view "being energetic" as "having been given life"
and
if we view "being non energetic" as "not having been given life"

It opens up a whole new world in understanding why people "do" the things they do or "not do" the things they ought to
(or what "we think" they ought to or not)

because do we have a reason to get angry at the idleness of a brother if he has not yet been given life (been given God's Spirit)? Because do we not believe "each in their own time (order)"?

[CST]

No, frustration is the root of impatience, boredom is the root of lethargy and lethargy and impatience don't mix.

All depends on the state of the person at the time of becoming bored

If a person is energetic and becomes bored with what they are doing, they want something else to do and can get frustrated because they can't find something else to do, therefore becoming impatient of wanting something else to do right away

But if a person is not energetic and becomes bored with what they are doing, they will get drowsy

In which I agree with you that lethargy and impatience don't mix

and on a side note,
if we view "being energetic" as "having been given life"
and
if we view "being non energetic" as "not having been given life"

It opens up a whole new world in understanding why people "do" the things they do or "not do" the things they ought to
(or what "we think" they ought to or not)

because do we have a reason to get angry at the idleness of a brother if he has not yet been given life (been given God's Spirit)? Because do we not believe "each in their own time (order)"?

If people are being energetic in the sense you seem to be using in the top part of your post there they'll be likely producing adrenaline which will stave off both boredom and lethargy (and when I say 'lethargy' I don't mean drowsy so may be using the wrong term, but I see the connection).

I  was saying boredom doesn't lead frustration (and thus impatience) because once your bored you can't find the interest even to get frustrated.

As for the rest of your post. I'd say your preaching to the converted here although I'd expect there to be some around who don't join the dots that way.

[jugghead]

The main reason I see boredom leading to frustration and then to impatience is because I see it happen all the time with my grand kids, and also saw it with my own children when they were younger.

[CST]

Oh, yes! Actual children, yeah I see they're harder to exhaust. Although I also suspect the reason for their impatience may be that they haven't learned the concept or quality of patience. For children of that age I imagine just about anything they don't like is the root of impatience.

Sorry, for pushing this discussion though, I have a strange tenancy to get passionately defensive about ideas I probably don't know as much about as the passion would suggest and may well not be worth defending.

[MusicLover123]

Sorry, for pushing this discussion though, I have a strange tenancy to get passionately defensive about ideas I probably don't know as much about as the passion would suggest and may well not be worth defending.

Is that because you're bored?

[marie glen]

Sorry, for pushing this discussion though, I have a strange tenancy to get passionately defensive about ideas I probably don't know as much about as the passion would suggest and may well not be worth defending.

Is that because you're bored?

     :laughing7: those two comments are both funny.. :Peace2:

[CST]

Sorry, for pushing this discussion though, I have a strange tenancy to get passionately defensive about ideas I probably don't know as much about as the passion would suggest and may well not be worth defending.

Is that because you're bored?

No, not because I'm bored. Lonely, maybe. In my head I've simply taken the Biblical injunction to truth to heart and and, believing that truth is always better than error will oppose error wherever I feel I see it no matter how trivial. Of course, I'm probably in error in doing this.

[sheila]

personally,I remember being so bored as a teen-ager...desiringtogo'hang-out'with my friends...and becoming very frustrated..because

my Mom wouldn't let me.also,as an adult..Ihad a desire/need to accomplish a task/chore and would become frustrated at

being hindered/thwarted.while trying.to accomplish it.


thwarted desire/needfor action.....=frustration

lethargy..no desire formed

boredom=desire  unmet and forming..leading to restlessness..to setinmotion tomeet desire

frustration=being hindered of the motion tomeet the desire.

  towill..andtodesire..andtoaccomplish. :2c:

[MusicLover123]

Sorry, for pushing this discussion though, I have a strange tenancy to get passionately defensive about ideas I probably don't know as much about as the passion would suggest and may well not be worth defending.

Is that because you're bored?

No, not because I'm bored. Lonely, maybe. In my head I've simply taken the Biblical injunction to truth to heart and and, believing that truth is always better than error will oppose error wherever I feel I see it no matter how trivial. Of course, I'm probably in error in doing this.

Ok, forgive me then. I was being a bit sarcastic there; Thought you had my sense of humor. I struggle with loneliness myself, honestly! Especially throughout my School years. I do feel your concern as well. I remember at times, when attempting to state truth to people, had ostracized me as a result. Though, I probably was unkind in my judgement, as no kindness in judgement, no love in my outputs, had resulted in unkindness.

[CST]

Sorry, for pushing this discussion though, I have a strange tenancy to get passionately defensive about ideas I probably don't know as much about as the passion would suggest and may well not be worth defending.

Is that because you're bored?

No, not because I'm bored. Lonely, maybe. In my head I've simply taken the Biblical injunction to truth to heart and and, believing that truth is always better than error will oppose error wherever I feel I see it no matter how trivial. Of course, I'm probably in error in doing this.

Ok, forgive me then. I was being a bit sarcastic there; Thought you had my sense of humor. I struggle with loneliness myself, honestly! Especially throughout my School years. I do feel your concern as well. I remember at times, when attempting to state truth to people, had ostracized me as a result. Though, I probably was unkind in my judgement, as no kindness in judgement, no love in my outputs, had resulted in unkindness.

Don't worry, I saw the joke, but wasn't sure the was no real question behind it.

Judgement/not judgement is hard. We're also tld that if we fail to warn others of danger we're culpabable but no-one want to be told the truth when it says that they're wrong. I don't the think the scibes/Pharisees/lawyers thought Jesus was being particularly kind how He talked about them, but that's not a reason not to say it in its self. We're just not as tactful as Jesus, or as certain.

[jugghead]

Then become blameless by just stating how you see/understand something rather than becoming a judge how another sees/understands something and telling them they are wrong

That is how I understand "being perfected in love" rather than being perfected as a judge, if we are to judge, judge ourselves in how we are being perfected ..... as "a judge" (in law/under the old covenant of law) or as "love" (in grace/under the new covenant of grace)

my  :2c:

[MusicLover123]

Then become blameless by just stating how you see/understand something rather than becoming a judge how another sees/understands something and telling them they are wrong

That is how I understand "being perfected in love" rather than being perfected as a judge, if we are to judge, judge ourselves in how we are being perfected ..... as "a judge" (in law/under the old covenant of law) or as "love" (in grace/under the new covenant of grace)

my  :2c:

Good thoughts, Jugghead. Reminded me of this verse, as it was my app's Verse of the Day... Galatians 5:14

14for all the law in one word is fulfilled-in this:
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"

[CST]

Then become blameless by just stating how you see/understand something rather than becoming a judge how another sees/understands something and telling them they are wrong

That is how I understand "being perfected in love" rather than being perfected as a judge, if we are to judge, judge ourselves in how we are being perfected ..... as "a judge" (in law/under the old covenant of law) or as "love" (in grace/under the new covenant of grace)

my  :2c:

I think you're making a false distinction there, the people we call judges in their profession state how they see things, themselves it doesn't make things any better. You don't have to say you think someone is wrong, if you state what you think with any sort of conviction the law of mutual exclusivity demands that anyone who understands something in a way that conflicts their own you necessarily imply that you believe they're wrong.

I don't need to personally tell a Muslim I think their views about Jesus are wrong for them to understand I must think their views about Jesus are wrong.

[jugghead]

Then become blameless by just stating how you see/understand something rather than becoming a judge how another sees/understands something and telling them they are wrong

That is how I understand "being perfected in love" rather than being perfected as a judge, if we are to judge, judge ourselves in how we are being perfected ..... as "a judge" (in law/under the old covenant of law) or as "love" (in grace/under the new covenant of grace)

my  :2c:

I think you're making a false distinction there, the people we call judges in their profession state how they see things, themselves it doesn't make things any better. You don't have to say you think someone is wrong, if you state what you think with any sort of conviction the law of mutual exclusivity demands that anyone who understands something in a way that conflicts their own you necessarily imply that you believe they're wrong.

I don't need to personally tell a Muslim I think their views about Jesus are wrong for them to understand I must think their views about Jesus are wrong.

You just proved my point

[eaglesway]

I think it is a matter of spirit.

What Spirit are we of?

Jesus clearly disputed the Sanhedrin with much specificity declaring exactly where they were wrong, as well as explaining what the right "way" (Teach me Thy ways, The way of the Lord) is.

So, it doesnt matter how we express differences or address error if we are not in the right spirit. There is no specific method, and we ought not judge the servant of another Master, but we can discern spirits- if we are spiritual. If not, we will argue on ad infinitum being unconscious of the will of the Lord and whether or not we are selves are in the right spirit, no matter how kindly or "spiritual" we represent ourselves to be.

Paul reasoned in the synagogues even to the point of anger at the obtuseness of the Jews and shook off his garment against them as he left as a testimony of their wilful ignorance and arrogance.

"Concepts" of spiritual conduct are to easily influenced by the world around us. Some people love conflict and portray themselves as Pauline when they are simply contentious and sectarian.

Some people portray themselves as gentle as a dove when they are simply living "above the fray" - but for them it is really just a safe place to be out of the line of fire.

Discernment is harder, and IMO requires the wider aperture of the union between spiritual believers seeking renewed minds "in the spirit".

"If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins."