Universalism

[AshaMithra]

Then I guess we have to agree to disagree. Some would say God has a lot to answer to.  Please don't demonize my struggles, history or lack of belief. If I didn't know any better, I'd imagine you're all mocking something you don't understand (Zoroastrianism). Guess who King Cyrus (Kurush)was.  Where did the Magi in the bible come from? Many of the Mazdeans believe in  good overcoming evil, resurrection, judgment, a creator God, a savior, Angels and Demons, the devil and universal salvation/reconciliation. I'm trying to be cordial here. As for God, No where to hide ?.  Does he get a free pass? Is he a special snowflake? Do people ask to be born?

Once again, if GOD sets EVERYTHING in motion, how is it MANKIND'S FAULT? Do we have free will or do we not?  I hear virtually the same apologetic arguments from religious fundamentalists and other ECT Christians. Also, if anything, in Christianity, mankind's fate is worse than Satan's IMO. After all, he and his demons get to torture the damned!  Oh boy! Isn't God amazing? If my biological father was anything like my 'heavenly' father, I'd want a restraining order to say the least.   :dsunny:

[Eleutheros]

I'm from the US. I'm just mostly of Italian, Greek and middle eastern descent (among other lineages).

In other words, a true American!

What irks me about Romans 13 is that we're supposed to be subservient to even very abusive governments and monarchies. I mean, what were the NT writers thinking? Who were they? Was Christianity created to prop up the Roman aristocracy and subdue the people? Those are the questions I have for myself.

No, Christianity wasn't created to prop up the Roman Aristocracy and subdue the people. The Romans didn't need Christianity to subdue the people, they had laws designed to allow them the right to rule and a brutal military they could deploy anywhere there was insurrection against those laws. And they used that brutality in creative ways to keep the people fearful and thus subdued. However, within the confines of their law, they allowed their subjects to flourish in trade and business and, as long as their subjects respected their right to rule, they were allowed to practice whatever religion they held to.

And the NT writers were Jews who believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. So, they were not among the Jews who gave the Romans so much hell with their insurrections that Rome destroyed their temple and eventually quashed all their insurrections at Masada, dispersing them to live among the nations until 1947 AD. And they still don't have their temple.

But, I think it likely that you know most of this.

Asha, I see you have lot on your plate with all these replies, so I don't wish to burden you further with any more of my typing, except to ask, out of curiosity because you are not Christian, "What would you have Paul write concerning a first century Christian's response to the Roman Government that you would find satisfying?"

Be good!

[jabcat]

Asha, I believe what you're missing (and what we all need) is relationship.  If you have any inkling whatsoever that there might be a God, ask Him to come into you through His Son Jesus, Who died on the cross for our sins, and to save you.  He will do so, changing you from the inside out.  Some questions may still remain, though many He will answer for you.  Still, if He changes the inside, there will be trust and faith to believe, even when we don't understand. 

[AshaMithra]

Paul, a Roman citizen and member of the elite Herodian family must have had ulterior motives.

Paul should have written that people shouldn't be subservient to abusive powers, namely powers that enforce slavery and oppression.  He should have condemned the Romans for conquering and suppressing people across their empire. He should have condemned emperor worship and Roma cult worship that was required of people of new religions. By that time, Christianity could have been considered a new religion and not a sect of Judaism. Nero was emperor at the time, the same person who murdered his family and put many people to death! This monster killed his own mother Agrippina, though she was no angel herself. Before that, the people had to deal with Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.

Christianity probably wouldn't have existed today like it does wet it not for ROMAN emperors like Constantine and Justinian. Most Christians offered no resistance when they were being persecuted because they were told to turn the other cheek. The initial Christians were supposedly Jewish. Pacifism as a reaction to Roman rule would be absolutely scandalous to most Jews in that day, as they were expecting a warlike king messiah. Guess what Edomite Jewish Royal family was put in charge by Rome to govern Palestine. The Herods!

I'm really tired, so that's all I have for now.

[rosered]

 

  Oh , Ash  .  :sigh:

The anger at God  is part of the surrender  and tears and frustration  , the battle is real   and within us all   to some degree , we do not understand  God , how frustrating is that !

Every body dies ...  fact ..

Jesus was Gods Son and showed us in his 33 years of being a human  how cruel  and evil  our human nature is [demons dwelling in them ,making them very  weak and corruptible  and down right vile ]

But He gave up his life   for us all  , no one took it from Him   , He got to be both ,  the son of man and the Son of God  Like we get to be both  , one is very temporary  the other  one  has no limits  .........
Adam was 930 years of flesh and blood , that was not even a day in Gods sight !    Time is not relevant  to God ,  but Adam [ mankind as  a whole ] was a a part of God too  , that is indestructible  in nature  .

Oh , But God  in  His mercy shortened the days of our flesh or none of it would be saved,  cause it  will all get much worse here  .




This life is a short one  ,   70 years in Gods sight is like a nano breath !  an hour at best !
  I do not want you to be IGNORANT  [NOT KNOWING THIS ] loved ones   but a 1000 years  to us , is like a day to God  :eek:

2peter 3
The Day of the Lord
...7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance....

  Just change your mind as often as  needed  and think  not so much as a present  condition ,  Where you see all this chaos  , but try to SEE GOD   through all this chaos . Keep looking , and keep trying   and trust Him with all your heart and soul /life in you .

  I am one whom believes in the nature of God as being a consuming Fire  of LOVE , SPIRIT  , TRUTH .

  We will be just like Him    ,burning away all the evil , none will remain in His presence  it cannot be .no evil can remain ever in His holy presence .

Most  Christian and even  other religions have taught us to fear the fire  as a bad thing   , But the truth is ,it is fearing God whom is a  consuming fire ,  when baptized with Holy Sprint and fire you are  in His presence  and nature that is changing your nature  to be like His , though correction and comforting  everlasting   love  dissolving   and resolving those   things that harm
us and others in the process ... 
It is tough love as being human , but the less   flesh  [satans  end is fire and no flesh to consume  ]  and more Spirit of pure holiness  the better  it gets !


This is NOT the fundamental  teaching of churches  , I believe only the Holy Spirit can teach you  things no man  ever could , but is  so settled , no one could  ever  change your mind   again , but God .

For me ,  you got to trust God with every fiber of your being and not be afraid  or angry  at HIM  but admit  to HIM ,  you do not know Him  as you should .But sure do want too and not afraid to die  trying to .

Some times you just got to let go and Let God  do His thing in you  and just be quiet and rest in  Him and quit fighting it , it is a struggle for real   especially at first .  It will bring you to tears and uncontrollable   bouts of surrender   .Wanting to be good but do not have a clue how to be , desiring for Him to change us  , it is a very personal and intimate thing  between you and Him  and He   wants this for you as well .  , just do not give up on God because He never will on you .

There will be many surprising things to happen  in your life  that you begin to take notice of  and   awaken too , you will know it is God doing it ,  your faith has substance  to it now and something  to work with  both ways .

The Lord made a  narrow straight path  to work with you  and you feel His love and connection  in your life , that you just cannot deny Him this  and begin to thank Him for it all  as the darkness within is consumed  by His presence   so small at first but  there  to increase By His power of Life in you  .
  So believe  you will be   so  tired  of evil  , you never ever want to experience it   ever again ! Drawing even closer to God .
and if we stumble , and we all do  , God will be there to   help us up  and continue to walk in the Spirit of life   with some joy and true meaning in it ... 
It is the most beautiful thing  and it happens   , these are called miracles ,  signs  and tokens that God is with you and you are  awakened  to realize it   because the Light has come and shines  and you can see  what children of the Day really means and  is not just wishful thinking  any longer .   

You could never tell all this is happening to someone to  just look at them  on the outside appearance of them ,  but it does happen all the time     ... That is why we cannot judge anyone before the time  GOD  does and finishes  them up .
HE is  most merciful  to us all .

[marie glen]

Paul, a Roman citizen and member of the elite Herodian family must have had ulterior motives.

Paul should have written that people shouldn't be subservient to abusive powers, namely powers that enforce slavery and oppression.  He should have condemned the Romans for conquering and suppressing people across their empire. He should have condemned emperor worship and Roma cult worship that was required of people of new religions. By that time, Christianity could have been considered a new religion and not a sect of Judaism. Nero was emperor at the time, the same person who murdered his family and put many people to death! This monster killed his own mother Agrippina, though she was no angel herself. Before that, the people had to deal with Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.

Christianity probably wouldn't have existed today like it does wet it not for ROMAN emperors like Constantine and Justinian. Most Christians offered no resistance when they were being persecuted because they were told to turn the other cheek. The initial Christians were supposedly Jewish. Pacifism as a reaction to Roman rule would be absolutely scandalous to most Jews in that day, as they were expecting a warlike king messiah. Guess what Edomite Jewish Royal family was put in charge by Rome to govern Palestine. The Herods!

I'm really tired, so that's all I have for now.

All quite true (mostly, that is :smile: )

But, all it does for folks to openly rebel against powers that be, is it gets them killed.. case in point the Christians refused to bend the knees to Roman gods and emperors..

Jesus, when He came the first time, didn't come politically.. Even if He did plant seeds of peaceful revolt and change.. Christendom's-as imperfect as it was and is, the Magna Charter and u.s. Constitution on the rights of ppl and checks on ruler's ..kings and government's rights..

The plan of God the deliverance and rescue from death (nonlife) and its cause. This world of man's will/choices running its course openly teaching all what is good from what is evil/not good. (Doesn't work, can never work.) What is Life, from what is death / non-life.

But it's all confused by human perception and understanding--which is usually misunderstanding.. Including key mis-translations of God's Word (Promise) to us...

How would you create an eternal un-breakable paradise/perfection??

[jabcat]

All quite true (mostly, that is :smile: )

But, all it does for folks to openly rebel against powers that be, is it gets them killed..

Jesus, when He came the first time, didn't come politically..

But it's all confused by human perception and understanding--which is usually misunderstanding.. Including key mis-translations of God's Word (Promise) to us...

Yes, that's why I'm suggesting relationship, the Person of Jesus.  All things of human origin eventually fail; including institutions, arguments, and reasonings.   "Silver and gold have I none, in the Name of Jesus, rise..."

[Ross]

Christianity probably wouldn't have existed today like it does were it not for ROMAN emperors like Constantine and Justinian.

True; problem is that those, Constantine and Justianian, blended in the Romans cult with the Christian and used signs to back up their teachings.
Christ states that " A wicked and adulterous nations seek a sign and NO sign will be given save the sign of Jonah."
[The sign of Jonah refers to Christ being raised from the dead after 3 days, WHICH CHRIST WAS."]

This has led to all sorts of doctrinal rubbish which has gotten further away from the truth- and that truth literally sets us free from the law, of sin, and the fear of death.

You could never tell all this is happening to someone to  just look at them  on the outside appearance of them ,  but it does happen all the time     ... That is why we cannot judge anyone before the time  GOD  does and finishes  them up .
HE is  most merciful  to us all .