I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 13, 2017, 02:29:05 AM
So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve).
How do we learn?
If we want to protect our children from mistakes do we wrap them up in cotton wool and keep everyone else away from the presence?
When learning a trade of skills of any sort, do we NEVER make a mistake- or when the mistake is pointed out do we then realise what went wrong and why?
When a boss is running a company how many people actually talk to the boss face to face?
There are workers below the boss, and some of them get the proverbial bee in the bonnet about pet issues- these cause problems, distractions, varying emotions; but they are not fully in charge- what if the boss sees them doing stuff but that is part of them learning what they should NOT be doing?
Paul specifically states in 1 Cor 15;19 " If our hope in Christ is for this life only, of all men we are to be pitied most."
When a child runs up to a senior and criticises him for what they are doing is the child correct? Or is his lack of experience clouding his judgment? When that child is older and then looks back at the incident he will then realise that this was part of leaning- not always nice, but essential to grow up.
I was raised a Baptist, but had much contact with catholic stuff.
Part of being pulled from these false doctrines they are under has helped to learn right from wrong; without having the information in my mental hard drive I would not recognise the differences.
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good from evil- to gain that knowledge and grow they need to be able to make comparisons.
I.M.O God is currently not interfering with what man is trying to do- not God's fault, just not the time for man to start learning IN FULL until there is enough data to be pointed out so that values are corrected.
At the moment we see heaps of bad powers and evil- the love of money and power is the root of that evil.
Imagine an apprentice coming in and trying to run a company- mankind is currently like that apprentice.
However at an arranged time God will open the eyes and explain the whole system.
Satan will no longer be the ruler, since he is only the current ruler of THIS age. Christ is setting up a new kingdom and the old WILL be rolled away- no more fears, no more abuse of the system.
Romans 8;38,39 " For I AM CONVINCED that neither death, nor life,
NOR ANGELS, NOR RULERS,
nor things present nor things to come,
NOR POWERS,
nor height, nor depth,
NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Form my experience you are starting to ask questions that NO man will answer- only God. But how He does that is between you and Him. Please keep asking- there will be much resistance, but His love NEVER fails.
This (to me) seems to be the biggest question.. And, it's a very reasonable one! If, there be God, why is the world and life so messed up? I mean some folks suffer terrible things! There's war and everything!
Well, I figure God must be life itself.. the life force.. because "In the beginning God.." so what else would be? And I figure He must be perfect (or He too would fade?) But here's the thing, once He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. because (surely?) with thinking ability, comes the ability to make choices.
But, and here's the real paradox or Pandora's box, once one chooses anything in thought, word or deed that disagrees with what He chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life/God. But.. what was the other option? No rational creatures ever? Stick with a sort of ant farm..?
So death and suffering came about.. And, it seems to me He engineered it in just a way, that all would take this unavoidable journey (and lesson) all together at once.. lest one wander away now, another, later, another later.. and so on, taking virtually forever. ..Unavoidable, that is, if there's to be thinking and reasoning ability.
And so, the rescue (from death and its cause) "was built in from the beginning/foundation".
Because He is letting mankind (and angel) choice (tho limited thank goodness!!) run its course, all die, and all suffer, some terribly. But.. God being life, suffers, lives through and experiences it all! Why, would He put Himself through all that!?
Perhaps, it might be, because He's not creating an ant farm, but His own family, and an un-breakable paradise/perfection. Un-breakable because, I figure, on that great 'day' of judgment/intense review of all history (sad, sad story).. the full understanding of good from evil (life from death/non-life) will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche. (That to wander from Him is to wander from life.. Can't be done.. If not for Jesus all would perish. For imperfection cannot endure and forever stand, but fades away. "The wages" (result) "of sin" ("missing the mark"/imperfection) "is death" Romans 6:?)
"All things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20.
He has engineered all things just the way He has, in order to bring about the very best of all possible 'end' results. Because, that's the nature of perfection. And perfect makes no mistakes and can lose nothing.
Romans 5:19 - "For even as, through the disobedience of the one man" (Adam, all born from, inheriting imperfection) "the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One" (Christ) "the many shall be constituted just."
"God is Love" ..."Love never fails." (Never ever!) (He fills us, love overflows.. "Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" ..."Love is the fulfilling of the law" for "Love works no evil". "The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" (Isaiah 11:7)
...Love, will be the ruling force. That's what He's creating!
:Peace2: God bless!
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 13, 2017, 02:29:05 AM
I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.
Welcome Ash!
One of the things that makes the gospel good news to me is that our Father is so good that he wants us to be able to go through the absolute worst that we can imagine and yet still be able to trust and be full of joy and at rest in our father. I'm not sure how else he could have taught us to love our enemies outside of letting hatred into the world. I don't see how else he could have taught us that all misery, sorry, difficulty, and pain is nothing when God our father is light and in Him is no darkness at all. That he sent his son to suffer and be tortured and hated in some way proves to me that those things are necessary to go through if we are to be perfected.
George Macdonald puts it best, "He has not two thoughts about us. With him all is simplicity of purpose and meaning and effort and end--namely, that we should be as he is, think the same thoughts, mean the same things, possess the same blessedness. It is so plain that any one may see it, every one ought to see it, every one shall see it. It must be so. He is utterly true and good to us, nor shall anything withstand his will."
"He can be revealed only to the child; perfectly, to the pure child only. All the discipline of the world is to make men children, that God may be revealed to them."
Welcome Ash ,
Even your name has meaning in the Word of Death and Life Two laws at work in us all ..
all things are yours Asher. H836 happy , fortunate , blessed .
And you ask a wonderful fundamental question Ash! Why all the suffering if God is in control ?
To prove a point in a simple answer . God has always loved us enough to protect and take care of us , but we wanted to try to do it on our own , and it is not possible with man but the impossible is done by God Alone , though trusting Him totally and having a genuine , real and truthful relationship with Him ..
Great answers from you 3 already !! I love coming here and reading about the Lord in the lives of everyone and sharing what is in their hearts and pouring them out in offerings , like cool drink of water in a thirsty land .
Quotethough I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist.
You said it all right here to me .
And many miracles were not done to them by Jesus , because of their unbelief.
For the simple answer is where your heart is not open to Jesus neither is heaven open to you .
Everyone seeks simple answers to some perplexing questions , and many can tell you , but if you do not believe Jesus why would you believe anyone raised from the dead back to Life again ?
Because the dead do not know anything about God .
Only Jesus does and teaches all by the Holy Spirit that is how we are all born again [ new Life in Christ ] They are just dead letters , mere words until they are given true meaning and breath the breath of God in you , your second wind and nature and Spirit .
but here is the rub and problem of evil , the world is now going to hate you because of the truth living in you .. the world loves it own and very much a respecter of persons , Where as the Love of GOD is not at all . anyone can be saved at any time , the thing is desiring God first in your life over everything else this world could ever offer you .
Jesus showed us how this world belongs to Satan as the ruler of suffering and death in Matt 4 and Luke 4 from the beginning and how He worms his way in the fruit to corrupt it .
Fruit that belongs to God !
We all were alive without the law once and breaking it , not aware there is a law to live by and were suffering to live , but death come though the law and kills us , we become sin conscience and guilty before God ,
Like Bro Ross said , the tree of knowledge of good and evil is that tree that we are all born eating and it is in that DAY we are dead to God from the fruit of our doings [Adam =mankind ] of this particular tree in the garden of God .
I recall reading in the scriptures Jesus telling anyone reading His true testimony /witness , make the tree good and it fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit a tree is known by its fruit .
This made no sense to me at all , But I asked Jesus what do you mean Jesus ? , How ? I do not understand at all how to do this , guess it was because I did not want to choose , but wanted the best of both worlds :sigh:
The good and the perfect , not possible in my own substance , but I sure wore myself out trying to please God and myself :blush: They call this straddling the fence and it sure does rip you in two and that is a suffering of itself .
Jesus Christ is the only One whom can give the right to the way of the Tree of Life and open up heaven for you ,
Heaven is not so much a literal physical place , but a state of just being in the presence of God , to me so far it is everywhere [a realm ] but hidden to the natural eyes of mankind and only Jesus can heal us , make us well and whole , complete in Him and give us the eyes to see it HIM / THE FATHER ] and ears to Hear the Spirit [ God is Spirit & Truth ] and heart to understand His Wisdom ,
It is His righteousness that makes the path though mercy and forgiveness , the wrath of mankind has never ever worked any righteousness of God , only self righteousness and it is filthy rags in Gods sight and will never see Him on our own fruit of our doing . you have to obey Jesus Christ in order to Know Him .Love God first the source of all Things powerful and in motion and love everyone a like as you do your own self and want what is best for all , self included .
Without Him you will do nothing but spin your wheels and cog up and stumble often . God knows how much we all have failed the tests of faith to just get where we are now ,,,
This turned out a lot longer than originally planned . My apologies for the long windiness .
I hope you stick around brother , suffering within Christ now has its glorious rewards for sure , it is true riches that nothing in this world could possibly offer Like Marie said it is LIFE itself and there is no end in this .
The dead in sin and trespass , and held by it ,shall hear His voice and Live !! one of my most favorite Living Words is this ,,, John 5
The Father and the Son
...24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment.
Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. 25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and
has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.... 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.... The Light has come and unconditional love is in Him , come as you are , just believe in Him to do it for you !!
God bless you with more of Him and all ...
Quote from: itivino on November 13, 2017, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 13, 2017, 02:29:05 AM
I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.
Welcome Ash!
One of the things that makes the gospel good news to me is that our Father is so good that he wants us to be able to go through the absolute worst that we can imagine and yet still be able to trust and be full of joy and at rest in our father. I'm not sure how else he could have taught us to love our enemies outside of letting hatred into the world. I don't see how else he could have taught us that all misery, sorry, difficulty, and pain is nothing when God our father is light and in Him is no darkness at all. That he sent his son to suffer and be tortured and hated in some way proves to me that those things are necessary to go through if we are to be perfected.
George Macdonald puts it best, "He has not two thoughts about us. With him all is simplicity of purpose and meaning and effort and end--namely, that we should be as he is, think the same thoughts, mean the same things, possess the same blessedness. It is so plain that any one may see it, every one ought to see it, every one shall see it. It must be so. He is utterly true and good to us, nor shall anything withstand his will."
"He can be revealed only to the child; perfectly, to the pure child only. All the discipline of the world is to make men children, that God may be revealed to them."
Welcome itivino !!
I enjoyed your post !! Blessings , is this name , the new wine ?
Jesus miracle from water into wine !
The blood of Jesus Christ , the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world !!
Many blessings in His holy name :HeartThrob:
For me, it is understanding what God says through His written word, "There is none like me"
and it is seeing the difference between "believing" something is true and "knowing" something is true
Yes, we can "believe" that statement is true, but do we "know" it is true; do we know it as "TRUTH"
The only way God could prove that statement to be truth is to create a place (the physical universe) where He cannot be physically seen (yet some of mankind did in His Son who walked this earth), but where His presence can be physically felt and heard, and that is because He lives inside us, for some only a dormant seed that has yet to be watered to start the growing process.
We cannot find God by searching this outside world, we find Him only by looking inward, into ourselves, for the kingdom of God is within us and that is where He resides.
The reason we see so much suffering and death in this physical world is because outside the presence of God exists "all that He is not" and until we search for "all that He is" inside of ourselves, death and suffering will continue to be manifested through this corrupted flesh in this physical world.
To understand more than what God is "all that is good" is to want to understand "all that He is not", thus the reason He allowed (did not prevent/protect) us to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of the knowledge of "all that He is" and "all that He is not"
He allowed (did not prevent/protect) us to eat so God could prove to us that "There is none like Him", it had to become Truth to us, not just something that is true.
In other words, it had to become His Son (Truth) in us, someone we "KNOW" not "just" someone we "believe", though believing is part of the process
Hearing is the beginning of the process of believing and believing leads to knowing and "knowing" is the revealing of Truth
Which relates to the pattern of the Tabernacle:
We "hear" in the outer court (we hear in the Spirit)
We "believe" in the inner court (we believe in the Son)
We "know" in the Holy of Holies (we know in the Father)
We know the Father in/by/through believing the Son (the Word) in/by/through hearing in their Spirit which is One
One reason God allows suffering is because He is teaching us love. The God of Christian Universalism will save all through the chaos of time and the ages, until all are one in the joy of love. God could have prevented us from ever experiencing pain, but then we could never have become one with him, in friendship, in family, in wisdom, the deep waterfall of boundless rejoicing in light and harmony that will someday belong to everyone in the universe because Jesus showed the way,laying down His life for all.
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" John 12:32
"He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev 21:5
In our faith, the words "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". Phil 2:9-11... is the fulfillment of universal reconciliation.... the promise made in soooo many verses it is hard to miss once you see it :o)
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:15-21
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:9-11
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:25-28
:cloud9: Great posts! :thumbsup: I agree with Rose.. so nice to read others thoughts, etc.. Life changing things learned.. or experienced..
Welcome, Ash brother!
Ash, this is from a post made earlier today in another thread by Rodger Tutt. Fits here; "When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river." Amen.
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 13, 2017, 02:29:05 AM
I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.
Hi Ash. Nice to meet you.
The age-old question..... Why does God allow bad things to happen?
Well, if we had to be good, if God made everyone to do His Will, we would be servants/slaves to Him, not children to Him. And that just wouldn't be love....it would be bondage. God wants us to be free...free to choose Him. To do that, He must allow us to sin. And, in sinning, we all allow evil to come into our lives, and into the world. The evil we do will ripple into other's lives.....just as the good we do, does the same.
Another reason He allows pain and suffering, I believe, is that when we learn many of the most important things that we need to know. We learn who we really are many times; we learn how much we are willing to sacrifice for, and how much we are willing to forgive others. We realize how fragile life can be, and thus, why it is so important to treasure it. We learn how evil can ruin our lives, sometimes, and the pain it causes others, and we see its ugly face for what it truly is, rather than how our society sometimes paints it.
He showed us that the evil in this world causes pain and suffering for the innocent, when they nailed a man to the cross, the day Jesus died. We learned that an innocent man was treated like a terrible criminal. For no reason other than He rattled the powers that were, at the time. Fear came upon men who were thought to be the holiest of men. And the fear of being criticized caused them to be evil.
Jesus also taught us that the evil in this world cannot be overcome with more evil, but only through love can evil be eliminated. Love your enemies; do good to those who hurt you. Do not repay evil with evil, but with good. And so on.
If we do not experience evil and love, we cannot choose, and if we cannot choose, we cannot be transformed. And God wants us to be transformed to the likeness of Christ. We must all be transformed to the likeness of Christ, to enter Heaven. And, I believe, at some point in time, we will all be in Heaven.
1 Corinthians 15 50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."f
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"g
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast and immovable. Always excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
When we allow a baby to try to walk, and it falls and cries, are we being cruel? Or are we allowing the baby to grow and develop the way it must?
My :2c:
D.
I think God's character was shown when he died for us and when he lived with humility(not exploiting who he was). Most christians(including myself) believe Jesus is the incarnation of God and we(at least most of us here) believe that God is like Jesus because Jesus is God! So you are right that Jesus is not better(or worse). As for his "demands", I guess they can be interpreted as demands and are demands but they are not the demands of a tyrant. Would you believe any father was a tyrant if he (out of love) demanded that his son/daughter not submit to slavery(especially slavery to evil)? Humans all apparently want to be a slave to something but a "slaving" for God leads to freedom. I see the rules as intending to keep us from having to experience the natural consequences(even necessary consequences) of sin rather than suffering being a punishment for disobedience. In other words, God is like a good father(because he IS the father).
I have never been satisfied with typical theodicies. My approach is to consider my ignorance(lack of wisdom) and that there must be some reason for God "allowing" evil(that is not to say "willing" it) and that God himself chose to suffer. I bite the bullet and think that evil doesn't and won't make perfect sense to me as long as I believe in both God's power and goodness. However, the apparent design of the universe, my experiences, and the fact that the universe existing and working like it does without a creator just seems so absurd that the problem of evil seems small in comparison. Basically, which is more likely? The universe exactly like this one but without God? Or humans lacking an answer to the problem of evil through our own immense ignorance?
Thanks for the replies and insight everybody.
Actually, Ash is my internet name here, and in my case, it originates from "Asha" not Asher. Asha can be translated roughly from the Avestan language as truth, righteousness or existence, all of which I've been searching for the meaning of.
At one time in my life, a part of me wanted to convert to Zoroastrianism, though I quickly learned you have to be born into it and both parents had to be Zoroastrian (neither of mine are). Also, looking back, I hardly know anything about the religion or its history. I don't have that much Persian blood flowing within me anyway (I'm mostly of Mediterranean ancestry). I liked the concept of Ahura Mazda. The existence of evil makes more sense because he had an evil and almost equal but inferior counterpart in the form of Ahriman/Angra Mainyu (The other theory is that Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu are emanations of Ahura Mazda or that Ormazd and Ahriman come from an even higher being called Zurvan. In the Gathas of Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda was truly supreme, though). The Angels in that belief system kind of made sense because they were emanations of God/Ahura Mazda. Otherwise if God made Angels, then why did he need humans? Then, I came to realize that Mazda and the God of the bible, at least in some way, were the same being. Seeing this, and seeing that some forms of both the Mazdean religion and Christianity taught Universalism, I once entertained the idea of Christian Universalism.
Then I had to ask questions for myself, which is when doubt set in. My search lead me to David Icke's website. I've heard of him before that. I've always heard voices. Several years ago, I felt everyone was out to get me. The voices became unbearable, so I tried to kill myself. I ended up being hospitalized, and now I take medication for my major depression, anxiety and psychotic symptoms.
Although I don't believe everything Icke writes, I do believe religion was ultimately conceived to control people. As someone who likes to create things, I don't exactly enjoy being told how to think or do anything to stifle my creativity. I like to create books where the characters can create multiverses (not a fan of chosen ones though for the most part).
I also have to question if a supreme being exists, would being only good limit his power?
Isn't God supposed to be beyond the concepts of life and death, existence and nonexistence, time, space, infinity, and exponentially beyond the concept of infinite dimensions? Surely if we could hypothesize about grand concepts such as multiple dimensions or even infinite ones, wouldn't a supreme God be beyond all dimensions and beyond anything we can conceive in our imaginations?
With all of that power, why does he need us? Why didn't he make us indestructible like the Angels? I guess I'll never find the answer to these questions in my lifetime.
Sorry if I came across as someone hostile towards UR. It's just that I have a hard time believing a wholly benevolent god when I see the horrors of this world. For me ultimately, I think I had to step away from the faith. Romans 13 was my breaking point. :(
Good stuff sister D! Listening to others helps add and not take away from the Word of Life ... I love that about God .
Great thoughts Daniel B ,,,Amen we all are trying to Know God in our very limited and carnal natures it does not make any sense and most walk away and go right back into the world as they were before .
Thanks AshaMithra for your detailed explanation of you name /moniker and ''religious'' experiences.
I have never heard of David Icke , I read a bit of him and this guy has been given a wild imagination to explore. God does this sometimes to those whom seek dramatic answers to the universe it seems .
I am being corrected all the time by the Holy Spirit , it is like gathering up information and trying to make it fit and than toss that out and seek some more ,
I have found a very simple and believe honest answer , that it always comes back to , and that is digging into the Word of God and making a real effort and not be so lazy and look for Truth in them and ask Jesus to show me , sometimes it is waiting a long time , but always keeps me asking Him for Truth
This is a personal relationship I treasure more than all relationships I have ever known combined .I love this place , because many , many good and honest souls have shared what God gave them and have helped lift me out of the pit of despair on any certain day , or have me dig in ,looking harder for truth , the truth sets us free from the bondage of evil .
I do believe we are created By God as both evil and good on purpose ,
The Gen 1 account shows us that Adam was made good [male & female and One ] and in Gods image [ Spirit & Fire and Truth & Love His descriptive nature ] and eating from the Tree of Life as well as all the trees in the Garden of God , but not the tree of knowlege of good and evil it was forbidden and a commandment of God for Adam not to this all along , way before Eve was made even, but while they were still a whole and one as joined together , and Gen 2 account when Adam was made out of the dust of the earth evil was present and it was not until Eve come out of Adam as a whole/one did things change and take a course that death would enter though sin /error by the tree of knowledge of good and evil exposing it , Knowing the serpent that God had made on the 6th day Just as he made Adam would tempt and entice the weaker part of Adam as a whole .. Apparently the serpent was hoping to eat also of this tee , because if you read the curses God set upon Adam and Eve and the serpent , you will find that Adam was going to suffer great consequences for disobedience , Kicked out of the garden of God and he would work hard just to eat bread of heaven and spiritual food for Life and everything he grew would become cursed as briers and thorns and reaping what he sowed and laboring in vanity to only have sin being the dust of the earth and feeding the serpents belly and death be that end , but not if Gods food was given to him , by Gods mercy on him [daily bread ] by the sweat of his brow , that is not laboring in vain , but Blessed of God and it was up to him to choose and learn from that tree of knowlege of good and evil . the fiery law of Gods jealousy what obedience means to God more than all the sacrifices Adam[mankind] could ever make to Him ..
Now for Eve being the mother of all the living and the weaker vessel would be blessed in childbearing and would have her husband rule over her till his death come . but her heart would be pierced though in sorrow by all the death that comes to her living children
and we know the serpent gets to eat lots of dust and flesh and never be hungry as long as sin /error missing the mark/sign /token remains in our flesh , till we Hear Gods voice and OBEY HIM and LIVE ..One nature [evil ] was always doomed from the start , the other nature that is apart of Gods original design in Adam would become a life giving SPIRIT Being called the Lord Jesus Christ end result [Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world ] , the Christ is that anointing that only God thought the Holy Sprint anointing can accomplish EVER .
It is real and genuine and true, ORIGINAL from the beginning , but many false christs not anointed of God at all, but by the serpents [mind tricking them into thinking this worldly wisdom is Gods Wisdom , choosing to call themselves Gods chosen and not only deceiving their own hearts but any one else whom will listen to them [angels messengers of lies and murderers , the lie is what kills them , it is the truth that is Life that saves anyone ! religious Babylon is conceived con·ceive
kənˈsēv/Submit
verb
past tense: conceived; past participle: conceived
1.
become pregnant with (a child).
"she was conceived when her father was 49"
2.
form or devise (a plan or idea) in the mind.
"the dam project was originally conceived in 1977"
synonyms: think up, think of, dream up, devise, formulate, design, originate, create, develop
Gen 11 is the very origin of Babel men seeking God and trying to open heaven by their own vexed works
vexed
[vekst]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
irritated; annoyed:
vexed at the slow salesclerks.
2.
much discussed or disputed:
a vexed question.
3.
tossed about, as waves.
Explore Dictionary.com
Origin of vexed Expand
late Middle English
1400-1450late Middle English word dating back to 1400-50; See origin at vex, -ed2
Related forms Expand
vexedly [vek-sid-lee] (Show IPA), adverb
vexedness, noun
half-vexed, adjective
unvexed, adjective
vex
[veks]
Spell Syllables
verb (used with object)
1.
to irritate; annoy; provoke:
His noisy neighbors often vexed him.
2.
to torment; trouble; distress; plague; worry:
Lack of money vexes many.
3.
to discuss or debate (a subject, question, etc.) with vigor or at great length:
to vex a question endlessly without agreeing.
4.
to disturb by motion; stir up; toss about.
5.
to afflict with physical pain.
Origin Expand
1375-1425; late Middle English vexen < Old French vexer < Latin vexāre to shake, jolt, harass, annoy, frequentative of vehere to carry, convey
sounds like the serpent ORIGIN and devils works to me :sigh:
They cannot handle the truth [ Lord Jesus Christ ] and cannot speak the truth but LIE , The LIE that kills us all though the knowledge of good and evil making every last one of us guilty of sin before GOD [Romans chapters 7 & 8 ]
this tree is the knowledge of sin nature and ministration of DEATH ..
John 8 The Children of the Devil
...43Why do you not understand what I am saying?
It is because you are unable to accept My message.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!...!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are of your father the devil because a lie is what started[origin] of the whole painful and suffering and dying process in this world and it is increasing and being exposed daily as the Light shines on it , it is only when the Lords Sprint gives us His Holy Sprint to discern good and evil by exercising us in it by faith in the TRUTH [WORD OF GOD heaven /LORD JESUS CHRIST /under heaven ] as those in Hades /Sheol graves [as dead men walking ] do not have a clue of Gods desire ..that none should perish but all should come to the knowledge of the truth and they will !! every knee will bow and every tongue confess JESUS IS LORD OF ALL .
But there is good news , great news even "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham's bosom?" MUCH !! GOD HAS GOT THIS AND IT ALL COVERED BY HIM !!
I am learning as I go , I kid you not ! God is teaching us His wisdom and truth when we sincerely seek Him with our whole hearts and not partial in any way , but desire HIM !!! ONLY HIM and not some knowledge to appease a fear of what if there is a God and I missed out some how ...
I hope to share some thoughts on that above question soon , this post has been so long already :eek: , but only if you want to brother ..
There is some great info on this site already and many , brothers and sister with some good thoughts on them already if you are seeking Gods kingdom that cannot be moved and a real relationship with the One whom created you for His glory
as well as everything He ever made , that being All in All ....
One that thought that blew me away , when God destroyed the earth and all that was in it with a flood in Noahs day , I was shocked to learn that their thoughts were evil continually......
My mind was not prepared for what was explained , they were just thinking of every day things of this life and world , like getting up and feeding the animals and taking a bath and such things like that . I did not consider that the focus on the world was evil , but it is!! bad and we / they never considered the Lord in anything but existing and doing as we please or have to do by necessity , Only Noah found grace in Gods sight ,because He thought of God and loved to communicate with Him , This scripture of keeping our eyes on Jesus had a whole new meaning from that point on ... Our everything really ... :dsunny:
This seems no different than what the ECT believers teach, IMO. So what are we? Children of God or Satan?
It just doesn't make sense to me that a benevolent God would set up his creation to fail. Yet, how is it our fault if he foreordained this? Because the bible says so? The same levels of scrutiny and criticism we apply to everything else should also apply to the bible and religion in general. Also, Where you are born will is a major contributing factor of your religious beliefs.
If god knew his little project would fail, he never should have started it in the first place. Magic man in the sky.
If this is what God really is, I'd rather not be in his heaven. :/
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 15, 2017, 05:57:29 PM
This seems no different than what the ECT believers teach, IMO. So what are we? Children of God or Satan?
It just doesn't make sense to me that a benevolent God would set up his creation to fail. Yet, how is it our fault if he foreordained this? Because the bible says so? The same levels of scrutiny and criticism we apply to everything else should also apply to the bible and religion in general. Also, Where you are born will is a major contributing factor of your religious beliefs.
If god knew his little project would fail, he never should have started it in the first place. Magic man in the sky.
If this is what God really is, I'd rather not be in his heaven. :/
Oh my no Ash ,
I think many things we think are all wrong about God
and so sorry you think that is what I was saying .. :doh:
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 15, 2017, 08:29:21 AM
Thanks for the replies and insight everybody.
Asha can be translated roughly from the Avestan language as truth, righteousness or existence, all of which I've been searching for the meaning of.
Good Day, Asha!
I've been following this thread with considerable interest and I want to say thank you for giving the folks here a chance to explain why they believe what they believe. Not many who find the Christian God, Jehovah, somewhat lacking in credibility will do what you did.
So, given your actions, and your words, and with your permission, may I think of you as an agnostic more than an atheist? A seeker of truth, more than an antagonist of religion?
Quote from: AshaMithraI liked the concept of Ahura Mazda. The existence of evil makes more sense because he had an evil and almost equal but inferior counterpart in the form of Ahriman/Angra Mainyu (The other theory is that Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu are emanations of Ahura Mazda or that Ormazd and Ahriman come from an even higher being called Zurvan. In the Gathas of Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda was truly supreme, though).
Being an American, raised on Television, The News, The US Constitution, The Spirit of Self-dependence, and King James Version Christianity, I obviously do not have the same way of thinking that you obtained from your culture. But, that doesn't mean I can't gain an understanding through study!
So, from that study, I drew a conclusion that I would like to ask you about concerning the Eastern understandings that attempt to explain how human beings came into existence and how, or even why, we became the kind of people that we are - beings who know the difference between good and evil and yet cannot bring to reality the ideal society such knowledge incorporates into us.
My question is this: Would you agree with my conclusion that Eastern philosophy is principally concerned with finding a balance between good and evil? That somehow both must exist in a person for the person to be "complete," but, in a state of reconciliation if that person is to live in truthfulness and thus in righteousness?
If not, then could I ask you to help me understand why my conclusion is incorrect?
Quote from: AshaMithraThe Angels in that belief system kind of made sense because they were emanations of God/Ahura Mazda. Otherwise if God made Angels, then why did he need humans? Then, I came to realize that Mazda and the God of the bible, at least in some way, were the same being. Seeing this, and seeing that some forms of both the Mazdean religion and Christianity taught Universalism, I once entertained the idea of Christian Universalism.
What were those similarities?
I know a question like that that would take a lot of typing to answer, but you are the first person I've had a chance to ask questions of and learn from concerning Eastern thinking.
However, if that question is one you'd rather not spend that much effort on, please feel free to opt out.
You will have my understanding.
Quote from: AshaMithraThen I had to ask questions for myself, which is when doubt set in. My search lead me to David Icke's website. I've heard of him before that. I've always heard voices. Several years ago, I felt everyone was out to get me. The voices became unbearable, so I tried to kill myself. I ended up being hospitalized, and now I take medication for my major depression, anxiety and psychotic symptoms.
Well, I believe that if you keep on asking questions,
but expecting that there are answers (even if you don't
like the answers at first), you will find them. So, keep on asking questions. For me, that is faith.
I am curious. If you found release from this condition, not just the surcease found in medication, would you consider it a miracle?
Quote from: AshaMithraAlthough I don't believe everything Icke writes, I do believe religion was ultimately conceived to control people. As someone who likes to create things, I don't exactly enjoy being told how to think or do anything to stifle my creativity. I like to create books where the characters can create multiverses (not a fan of chosen ones though for the most part).
I agree.
However, because I perceive that We need "righteous" leaders, governments and laws, and yes, even wars, so we don't slaughter ourselves wholly out of existence, like the Bible records human beings were doing for the first thousand years or so that followed Cain murdering his brother Abel in a fit of pique, and which led Jehovah to wipe out nearly all of humanity with a Deluge, I accept that religion plays a needed part, for now, in the reigning in of humanity's tendency toward choosing evil over good.
So, I consider religion a necessary evil and, given my understanding, it is something that will be sloughed off when We are all redeemed, like the skin of animals that the first human beings were forced to wear because of the shame they felt toward their nudity after acquiring, illicitly, the knowledge of good and evil.
Quote from: AshaMithraI also have to question if a supreme being exists, would being only good limit his power?
Isn't God supposed to be beyond the concepts of life and death, existence and nonexistence, time, space, infinity, and exponentially beyond the concept of infinite dimensions? Surely if we could hypothesize about grand concepts such as multiple dimensions or even infinite ones, wouldn't a supreme God be beyond all dimensions and beyond anything we can conceive in our imaginations?
So one would think. The problem I perceive with our comprehensions of God is with language.
With language We can imagine all kinds of things that cannot exist. For instance we can imagine God creating a rock so big that He cannot lift it. Or Time Travel, both forward and backward, with all the weird things from that which make for very popular books and movies. Or, even a God who planed out, long before He began creating, every detail of every thing that was going to happen, including all of the evil we will do, and the good, too, and all the calamities that have happened and will happen; a God who despite his knowing, as a fact, that the first humans were going to reject Him and end up choosing evil over good, almost consistently, created them anyway.
Quote from: AshaMithraWith all of that power, why does he need us? Why didn't he make us indestructible like the Angels? I guess I'll never find the answer to these questions in my lifetime.
So, because language gives us the ability to imagine what is truly impossible, we must learn how to ask questions in such a way that we discover answers that lead us to conclusions that are consistent from one conclusion to another.
Your question is one of those good ones.
I perceive this because the beginning of the answer is found, simply enough, in the fact that We exist, assuming you accept Divine Fiat. In other words, We
were created, and so, for some reason He
does need us, or at the least He
wants Us to exist simply because We do.
So, with that as a beginning, We can set out hearts to discover what that need in Him is, and then We will know why We were created.
Quote from: AshaMithraSorry if I came across as someone hostile towards UR. It's just that I have a hard time believing a wholly benevolent god when I see the horrors of this world. For me ultimately, I think I had to step away from the faith. Romans 13 was my breaking point. :(
You and me both!My Western religious training left me feeling very unsatisfied because what I was taught led me to perceive King James's Jehovah as megalomaniacal and capricious; a Being who thought up all this Sin I see, and all the sinning I was doing, and yet demanded worship from me because He said that He was Love and then allowed the horrific slaughter of His Son, then resurrected Him to prove it. Then His Son said that those He redeemed from Hell were to be His bride. I did not like the idea of having King James's Jehovah as a Father-in Law for all eternity. Hell seemed better, at least I could curse Him freely for consigning me there from before I was even born.
Obviously, there was a lot I had to unlearn before I could finally find answers that satisfied me.
My satisfaction; that is the key that opened the door that I discovered through asking good questions and believing that there were answers: The key is that the only person I need to convince of the Truth is myself; the door was discovering that the KJV is an ulterior motivated translation and therefore largely unable to convey the ideology carried in the original languages of scripture.
Fortunately, those original language words were preserved, allowing even someone as low-bred as myself to investigate them and discover the true God that is Jehovah.
I think I understand Him, now.
But my understanding may not be a satisfying thing to you because of the Eastern understanding that is a part of your consciousness. Nothing wrong with that, its just a fact. The thing though, is that you have to keep asking questions, but with the belief that there are answers, which I know you are doing because you came here and invited us to respond to you.
You and I are both human beings and that means that I can know you because I can know myself; I know this because we all feel love and need love, and we like to hate when we don't get what we need or when someone hurts us. And we all have been hurt deeply by those who say they love us; and then we, in turn, hurt those we love and don't like ourselves when we do.
Sometimes we seek forgiveness for that and sometimes we prefer to nurse the hurt and choose pride over relationship.
We've all done secret things that we do not want brought into the light and likewise we have done good things from time to time that make us feel good about who we are.
We engage sex both for pleasure and for pro-creation and we sometimes feel closer to God when we have an orgasm with the one we love more than at any other time, or from anything else we can do.
And from our sexuality, We get a feeling that somehow we can know what it is like to be God when we hold our very own new-born human being for the first time.
And we ask questions of our God, like how did We get here and why am
I here, and why, if You are so good and loving, I'm not; and why must
I endure the suffering brought to me because of the stupidity and bad choices of others. And by my own hand, too, if I am to be honest with You and with myself.
One final question, if I may, why was Romans 13 your breaking point? Where you, perhaps, thinking of another chapter? If not, then what is in Romans 13 that broke you away from the faith, which, may I assume, was Universalism?
Be good, AshaMithra.
It is, after all, what I perceive We were created to be!
I'm from the US. I'm just mostly of Italian, Greek and middle eastern descent (among other lineages).
What irks me about Romans 13 is that we're supposed to be subservient to even very abusive governments and monarchies. I mean, what were the NT writers thinking? Who were they? Was Christianity created to prop up the Roman aristocracy and subdue the people? Those are the questions I have for myself.
:2c: I seeitmoreofaspiritualwarfare against powers andprincipalitiesinhigh places...andnotaphysicalrebellion/insurrection.
Jesus said'ifmy kingdom wasofthis world..my men would fight...that I not be delivered up[like thenational/fleshly Israel warred]
cautious as a serpent...yet harmless as a dove. Christ must be a light unto the nations...hard thingtodowhenyour'e puttingthem todeath
physicallywithyoursword[ifthelight inyou be darkness..howgreatisthat darkness.
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 15, 2017, 09:44:36 PM
Who were they?
Men whom the Holy Spirit was inspiring and speaking through; who were totally submitted to God's will. And had a realization that God's kingdom is not of this world, so their investment and struggle was not in this world/age, but looking to the heavenly. They were talking about development of the spirit, destruction of carnality and self-serving interest, and "looking for a city whose builder and maker is God".
One thing I personally need to take more to heart; the truth stands on its own. It doesn't require our approval.
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 15, 2017, 09:44:36 PM
I'm from the US. I'm just mostly of Italian, Greek and middle eastern descent (among other lineages).
What irks me about Romans 13 is that we're supposed to be subservient to even very abusive governments and monarchies. I mean, what were the NT writers thinking? Who were they? Was Christianity created to prop up the Roman aristocracy and subdue the people? Those are the questions I have for myself.
..but what good does it do to make an insurrection? It gets people killed. It's better to pray.. :Peace2:
I found God in the mountains (Rocky Mountains USA) And it was actually through Easter Religion meditaion ideas, to quiet one's mind quiet enough to hear God's (quiet) voice, which sorta floats down like a feather.. a truth profound or solution to a problem.. then I was brought to the New Testament and the salvation message.
About 20 years later my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"
I prayed for better answers than I gave him.. and the answers I got knocked my socks off and almost 20 years later, they're still knocked off and I just keep getting happier and happier, because :gsmile: "Truth sets us free" .."His Word (Logos) is truth" Logos.. Logic.. Universalism
The answer of course, is simple.. we're not an ant farm.
:Peace2:
Quote from: DanielB on November 15, 2017, 08:17:52 AM
I think God's character was shown when he died for us and when he lived with humility(not exploiting who he was)....
....the fact that the universe existing and working like it does without a creator just seems so absurd that the problem of evil seems small in comparison. Basically, which is more likely? The universe exacally like this one but without God? Or humans lacking an answer to the problem of evil through our own immense ignorance?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :Peace2:
Quote from: rosered on November 15, 2017, 06:53:03 PM
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 15, 2017, 05:57:29 PM
This seems no different than what the ECT believers teach, IMO. So what are we? Children of God or Satan?
It just doesn't make sense to me that a benevolent God would set up his creation to fail. Yet, how is it our fault if he foreordained this? Because the bible says so? The same levels of scrutiny and criticism we apply to everything else should also apply to the bible and religion in general. Also, Where you are born will is a major contributing factor of your religious beliefs.
If god knew his little project would fail, he never should have started it in the first place. Magic man in the sky.
If this is what God really is, I'd rather not be in his heaven. :/
Oh my no Ash ,
I think many things we think are all wrong about God
and so sorry you think that is what I was saying .. :doh:
I was so busy with the grandsons I could not answer you very well , my apologies for that .
So Ash , Jesus said , You being evil know how to gives good gifts to your children,
how much more will the Father give the Holy Sprint / good gifts to those whom ask Him ..
What do you think He was saying ?
I know we can and will all be healed and changed though Him , each in their own order ..
I know that the law was made for the lawless , so If you are a law abiding citizen you have no problem with worldly things , but avoid that stuff like the plague .
Wisdom from above is pure and peaceable , it is the wisdom from below that is earthly sensual and devilish ..
James 3 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts,
do not boast in it or deny the truth. 15Such wisdom does not come from above,
but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist,
there will be disorder and every evil practice. and for me very divisive .
Also like Jabcat brought up , was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write for our correction these morals /lessons to learned and practiced and exercised with .. a lazy man does not satisfy his own soul but struggles to just exist . This emptiness is real and nothing in the world can fill it . it is a bottomless pit . :sigh:
1 Timothy ...8
Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it legitimately.
9We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous,
but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers,
10for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching...
I think so many are just so ''conditioned'' to constant sin in this world , that they have lost their way .
And it is when we begin to suffer for our mistakes than we cry out to God for help in our hour of need ..
This can be a motive of the heart , if it is for selfish reasons God knows the heart better than we do or if it be in all sincerity for the good of all , God knows that also ... We have a God deserving of honor and great glory, His mercy and love for us is unfathomable to the human heart .
WE have Jesus whom is the son of God and the Son of man , whom is set and fixed by the Father to open heaven for us , it has always been the great gulf fixed that no man can enter without Jesus making the right of way to access by faith in Him .
It says in Proverbs 8 anyone seeking the excellence of Gods Wisdom /Being the Lord Jesus Christ Himself finds Life and obtains favor from Him .... This is a beautiful thing to grow into !
...35"For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD.
36"But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."
Quote from: jabcat on November 16, 2017, 01:29:40 AM
One thing I personally need to take more to heart; the truth stands on its own. It doesn't require our approval.
Truth !! AMEN :thumbsup:
I have to ask is it easier to believe in God or not believe in Him ?
God is going to SHOW Himself to every last one in the end and there will be NO EXCUSES .
GREAT WHITE THRONE ,no where to hide from GOD but face to face ...
Then I guess we have to agree to disagree. Some would say God has a lot to answer to. Please don't demonize my struggles, history or lack of belief. If I didn't know any better, I'd imagine you're all mocking something you don't understand (Zoroastrianism). Guess who King Cyrus (Kurush)was. Where did the Magi in the bible come from? Many of the Mazdeans believe in good overcoming evil, resurrection, judgment, a creator God, a savior, Angels and Demons, the devil and universal salvation/reconciliation. I'm trying to be cordial here. As for God, No where to hide ?. Does he get a free pass? Is he a special snowflake? Do people ask to be born?
Once again, if GOD sets EVERYTHING in motion, how is it MANKIND'S FAULT? Do we have free will or do we not? I hear virtually the same apologetic arguments from religious fundamentalists and other ECT Christians. Also, if anything, in Christianity, mankind's fate is worse than Satan's IMO. After all, he and his demons get to torture the damned! Oh boy! Isn't God amazing? If my biological father was anything like my 'heavenly' father, I'd want a restraining order to say the least. :dsunny:
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 15, 2017, 09:44:36 PM
I'm from the US. I'm just mostly of Italian, Greek and middle eastern descent (among other lineages).
In other words, a true American!
Quote from: AshaMithraWhat irks me about Romans 13 is that we're supposed to be subservient to even very abusive governments and monarchies. I mean, what were the NT writers thinking? Who were they? Was Christianity created to prop up the Roman aristocracy and subdue the people? Those are the questions I have for myself.
No, Christianity wasn't created to prop up the Roman Aristocracy and subdue the people. The Romans didn't need Christianity to subdue the people, they had laws designed to allow them the right to rule and a brutal military they could deploy anywhere there was insurrection against those laws. And they used that brutality in creative ways to keep the people fearful and thus subdued. However, within the confines of their law, they allowed their subjects to flourish in trade and business and, as long as their subjects respected their right to rule, they were allowed to practice whatever religion they held to.
And the NT writers were Jews who believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. So, they were not among the Jews who gave the Romans so much hell with their insurrections that Rome destroyed their temple and eventually quashed all their insurrections at Masada, dispersing them to live among the nations until 1947 AD. And they still don't have their temple.
But, I think it likely that you know most of this.
Asha, I see you have lot on your plate with all these replies, so I don't wish to burden you further with any more of my typing, except to ask, out of curiosity because you are not Christian, "What would you have Paul write concerning a first century Christian's response to the Roman Government that you would find satisfying?"
Be good!
Asha, I believe what you're missing (and what we all need) is relationship. If you have any inkling whatsoever that there might be a God, ask Him to come into you through His Son Jesus, Who died on the cross for our sins, and to save you. He will do so, changing you from the inside out. Some questions may still remain, though many He will answer for you. Still, if He changes the inside, there will be trust and faith to believe, even when we don't understand.
Paul, a Roman citizen and member of the elite Herodian family must have had ulterior motives.
Paul should have written that people shouldn't be subservient to abusive powers, namely powers that enforce slavery and oppression. He should have condemned the Romans for conquering and suppressing people across their empire. He should have condemned emperor worship and Roma cult worship that was required of people of new religions. By that time, Christianity could have been considered a new religion and not a sect of Judaism. Nero was emperor at the time, the same person who murdered his family and put many people to death! This monster killed his own mother Agrippina, though she was no angel herself. Before that, the people had to deal with Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.
Christianity probably wouldn't have existed today like it does wet it not for ROMAN emperors like Constantine and Justinian. Most Christians offered no resistance when they were being persecuted because they were told to turn the other cheek. The initial Christians were supposedly Jewish. Pacifism as a reaction to Roman rule would be absolutely scandalous to most Jews in that day, as they were expecting a warlike king messiah. Guess what Edomite Jewish Royal family was put in charge by Rome to govern Palestine. The Herods!
I'm really tired, so that's all I have for now.
Oh , Ash . :sigh:
The anger at God is part of the surrender and tears and frustration , the battle is real and within us all to some degree , we do not understand God , how frustrating is that !
Every body dies ... fact ..
Jesus was Gods Son and showed us in his 33 years of being a human how cruel and evil our human nature is [demons dwelling in them ,making them very weak and corruptible and down right vile ]
But He gave up his life for us all , no one took it from Him , He got to be both , the son of man and the Son of God Like we get to be both , one is very temporary the other one has no limits .........
Adam was 930 years of flesh and blood , that was not even a day in Gods sight ! Time is not relevant to God , but Adam [ mankind as a whole ] was a a part of God too , that is indestructible in nature .
Oh , But God in His mercy shortened the days of our flesh or none of it would be saved, cause it will all get much worse here .
This life is a short one , 70 years in Gods sight is like a nano breath ! an hour at best !
I do not want you to be IGNORANT [NOT KNOWING THIS ] loved ones but a 1000 years to us , is like a day to God :eek:
2peter 3
The Day of the Lord
...7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance....
Just change your mind as often as needed and think not so much as a present condition , Where you see all this chaos , but try to SEE GOD through all this chaos . Keep looking , and keep trying and trust Him with all your heart and soul /life in you .
I am one whom believes in the nature of God as being a consuming Fire of LOVE , SPIRIT , TRUTH .
We will be just like Him ,burning away all the evil , none will remain in His presence it cannot be .no evil can remain ever in His holy presence .
Most Christian and even other religions have taught us to fear the fire as a bad thing , But the truth is ,it is fearing God whom is a consuming fire , when baptized with Holy Sprint and fire you are in His presence and nature that is changing your nature to be like His , though correction and comforting everlasting love dissolving and resolving those things that harm
us and others in the process ...
It is tough love as being human , but the less flesh [satans end is fire and no flesh to consume ] and more Spirit of pure holiness the better it gets !
This is NOT the fundamental teaching of churches , I believe only the Holy Spirit can teach you things no man ever could , but is so settled , no one could ever change your mind again , but God .
For me , you got to trust God with every fiber of your being and not be afraid or angry at HIM but admit to HIM , you do not know Him as you should .But sure do want too and not afraid to die trying to .
Some times you just got to let go and Let God do His thing in you and just be quiet and rest in Him and quit fighting it , it is a struggle for real especially at first . It will bring you to tears and uncontrollable bouts of surrender .Wanting to be good but do not have a clue how to be , desiring for Him to change us , it is a very personal and intimate thing between you and Him and He wants this for you as well . , just do not give up on God because He never will on you .
There will be many surprising things to happen in your life that you begin to take notice of and awaken too , you will know it is God doing it , your faith has substance to it now and something to work with both ways .
The Lord made a narrow straight path to work with you and you feel His love and connection in your life , that you just cannot deny Him this and begin to thank Him for it all as the darkness within is consumed by His presence so small at first but there to increase By His power of Life in you .
So believe you will be so tired of evil , you never ever want to experience it ever again ! Drawing even closer to God .
and if we stumble , and we all do , God will be there to help us up and continue to walk in the Spirit of life with some joy and true meaning in it ...
It is the most beautiful thing and it happens , these are called miracles , signs and tokens that God is with you and you are awakened to realize it because the Light has come and shines and you can see what children of the Day really means and is not just wishful thinking any longer .
You could never tell all this is happening to someone to just look at them on the outside appearance of them , but it does happen all the time ... That is why we cannot judge anyone before the time GOD does and finishes them up .
HE is most merciful to us all .
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 16, 2017, 08:41:24 AM
Paul, a Roman citizen and member of the elite Herodian family must have had ulterior motives.
Paul should have written that people shouldn't be subservient to abusive powers, namely powers that enforce slavery and oppression. He should have condemned the Romans for conquering and suppressing people across their empire. He should have condemned emperor worship and Roma cult worship that was required of people of new religions. By that time, Christianity could have been considered a new religion and not a sect of Judaism. Nero was emperor at the time, the same person who murdered his family and put many people to death! This monster killed his own mother Agrippina, though she was no angel herself. Before that, the people had to deal with Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.
Christianity probably wouldn't have existed today like it does wet it not for ROMAN emperors like Constantine and Justinian. Most Christians offered no resistance when they were being persecuted because they were told to turn the other cheek. The initial Christians were supposedly Jewish. Pacifism as a reaction to Roman rule would be absolutely scandalous to most Jews in that day, as they were expecting a warlike king messiah. Guess what Edomite Jewish Royal family was put in charge by Rome to govern Palestine. The Herods!
I'm really tired, so that's all I have for now.
All quite true (mostly, that is :smile: )
But, all it does for folks to openly rebel against powers that be, is it gets them killed.. case in point the Christians refused to bend the knees to Roman gods and emperors..
Jesus, when He came the first time, didn't come politically.. Even if He did plant seeds of peaceful revolt and change.. Christendom's-as imperfect as it was and is, the Magna Charter and u.s. Constitution on the rights of ppl and checks on ruler's ..kings and government's rights..
The plan of God the deliverance and rescue from death (nonlife) and its cause. This world of man's will/choices running its course openly teaching all what is good from what is evil/not good. (Doesn't work, can never work.) What is Life, from what is death / non-life.
But it's all confused by human perception and understanding--which is usually misunderstanding.. Including key mis-translations of God's Word (Promise) to us...
How would you create an eternal un-breakable paradise/perfection??
Quote from: marie glen on November 16, 2017, 05:36:36 PM
All quite true (mostly, that is :smile: )
But, all it does for folks to openly rebel against powers that be, is it gets them killed..
Jesus, when He came the first time, didn't come politically..
But it's all confused by human perception and understanding--which is usually misunderstanding.. Including key mis-translations of God's Word (Promise) to us...
Yes, that's why I'm suggesting
relationship, the Person of Jesus. All things of human origin
eventually fail; including institutions, arguments, and reasonings. "Silver and gold have I none, in the Name of Jesus, rise..."
Quote from: AshaMithra on November 16, 2017, 08:41:24 AM
Christianity probably wouldn't have existed today like it does were it not for ROMAN emperors like Constantine and Justinian.
True; problem is that those, Constantine and Justianian, blended in the Romans cult with the Christian and used signs to back up their teachings.
Christ states that " A wicked and adulterous nations seek a sign and NO sign will be given save the sign of Jonah."
[The sign of Jonah refers to Christ being raised from the dead after 3 days, WHICH CHRIST WAS."]
This has led to all sorts of doctrinal rubbish which has gotten further away from the truth- and that truth literally sets us free from the law, of sin, and the fear of death.
Quote from: rosered on November 16, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
You could never tell all this is happening to someone to just look at them on the outside appearance of them , but it does happen all the time ... That is why we cannot judge anyone before the time GOD does and finishes them up .
HE is most merciful to us all .