Universalism

[AshaMithra]

I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised  Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't  protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.

[Ross]

So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't  protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve).

How do we learn?
If we want to protect our children from mistakes do we wrap them up in cotton wool and keep everyone else away from the presence?
When learning a trade of skills of any sort, do we NEVER make a mistake- or when the mistake is pointed out do we then realise what went wrong and why?
When a boss is running a company how many people actually talk to the boss face to face?
There are workers below the boss, and some of them get the proverbial bee in the bonnet about pet issues- these cause problems, distractions, varying emotions; but they are not fully in charge- what if the boss sees them doing stuff but that is part of them learning what they should NOT be doing?

Paul specifically states in 1 Cor  15;19 " If our hope in Christ is for this life only, of all men we are to be pitied most."

When a child runs up to a senior and criticises him for what they are doing is the child correct? Or is his lack of experience clouding his judgment? When that child is older and then looks back at the incident he will then realise that this was part of leaning- not always nice, but essential to grow up.
I was raised a Baptist, but had much contact with catholic stuff.
Part of being pulled from these false doctrines they are under has helped to learn right from wrong; without having the information in my mental hard drive I would not recognise the differences.
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good from evil- to gain that knowledge and grow they need to be able to make comparisons.
I.M.O God is currently not interfering with what man is trying to do- not God's fault, just not the time for man to start learning IN FULL until there is enough data to be  pointed out so that values are corrected.
At the moment we see heaps of bad powers and evil- the love of money and power is the root of that evil.
Imagine an apprentice coming in and trying to run a company- mankind is currently like that apprentice.
However at an arranged time God will open the eyes and explain the whole system.
Satan will no longer be the ruler, since he is only the current ruler of THIS age. Christ is setting up a new kingdom and the old WILL be  rolled away- no more fears, no more abuse of the system.

Romans 8;38,39 " For I AM CONVINCED that neither death, nor life,
                           NOR ANGELS, NOR RULERS,
                           nor things present nor things to come,
                           NOR POWERS,
                           nor height, nor depth,
                           NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
                           will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Form my experience you are starting to ask questions that  NO man will answer- only God.  But how He  does that is between you and Him. Please keep asking- there will be much resistance, but His love NEVER fails.
                           

[marie glen]

This (to me) seems to be the biggest question.. And, it's a very reasonable one! If, there be God, why is the world and life so messed up? I mean some folks suffer terrible things! There's war and everything!

Well, I figure God must be life itself.. the life force.. because "In the beginning God.." so what else would be?  And I figure He must be perfect (or He too would fade?) But here's the thing, once He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. because (surely?) with thinking ability, comes the ability to make choices.

But, and here's the real paradox or Pandora's box, once one chooses anything in thought, word or deed that disagrees with what He chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life/God. But.. what was the other option? No rational creatures ever? Stick with a sort of ant farm..?

So death and suffering came about.. And, it seems to me He engineered it in just a way, that all would take this unavoidable journey (and lesson) all together at once.. lest one wander away now, another, later, another later.. and so on, taking virtually forever. ..Unavoidable, that is, if there's to be thinking and reasoning ability.

And so, the rescue (from death and its cause) "was built in from the beginning/foundation".

Because He is letting mankind (and angel) choice (tho limited thank goodness!!) run its course, all die, and all suffer, some terribly. But.. God being life, suffers, lives through and experiences it all! Why, would He put Himself through all that!?

Perhaps, it might be, because He's not creating an ant farm, but His own family, and an un-breakable paradise/perfection. Un-breakable because, I figure, on that great 'day' of judgment/intense review of all history (sad, sad story).. the full understanding of good from evil (life from death/non-life) will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche. (That to wander from Him is to wander from life.. Can't be done.. If not for Jesus all would perish. For imperfection cannot endure and forever stand, but fades away. "The wages" (result) "of sin" ("missing the mark"/imperfection) "is death" Romans 6:?)

"All things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20.

He has engineered all things just the way He has, in order to bring about the very best of all possible 'end' results. Because, that's the nature of perfection. And perfect makes no mistakes and can lose nothing.

Romans 5:19 - "For even as, through the disobedience of the one man" (Adam, all born from, inheriting imperfection) "the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One" (Christ) "the many shall be constituted just."

"God is Love" ..."Love never fails." (Never ever!) (He fills us, love overflows.. "Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" ..."Love is the fulfilling of the law" for "Love works no evil". "The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" (Isaiah 11:7)
...Love, will be the ruling force. That's what He's creating!
:Peace2: God bless!

[itivino]

I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised  Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't  protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.

Welcome Ash!

One of the things that makes the gospel good news to me is that our Father is so good that he wants us to be able to go through the absolute worst that we can imagine and yet still be able to trust and be full of joy and at rest in our father. I'm not sure how else he could have taught us to love our enemies outside of letting hatred into the world. I don't see how else he could have taught us that all misery, sorry, difficulty, and pain is nothing when God our father is light and in Him is no darkness at all. That he sent his son to suffer and be tortured and hated in some way proves to me that those things are necessary to go through if we are to be perfected.

George Macdonald puts it best, "He has not two thoughts about us. With him all is simplicity of purpose and meaning and effort and end--namely, that we should be as he is, think the same thoughts, mean the same things, possess the same blessedness. It is so plain that any one may see it, every one ought to see it, every one shall see it. It must be so. He is utterly true and good to us, nor shall anything withstand his will."

"He can be revealed only to the child; perfectly, to the pure child only. All the discipline of the world is to make men children, that God may be revealed to them."

[rosered]

Welcome Ash ,

   Even your name has meaning  in the Word of   Death and Life  Two laws at work in us all ..

all things  are yours  Asher. H836 happy , fortunate , blessed .


And you ask a wonderful fundamental  question Ash! Why all the suffering  if God is in control ?

To prove a point  in a simple answer .  God has always loved us enough to protect and take care of us , but we wanted to try to do it on our own , and it is not possible with man but  the impossible  is done  by God Alone , though trusting Him  totally and having a  genuine , real and truthful  relationship   with Him ..


Great answers  from you 3  already !!  I love coming here and  reading about the Lord in the lives of everyone and sharing what is in their hearts  and pouring them out  in offerings , like cool drink of water in a thirsty land .

though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist.

You said it all right here to me .

And many miracles were not done  to them by Jesus , because of their unbelief.   

For the simple answer is  where your heart is not open   to Jesus neither is heaven open  to you .

  Everyone seeks simple answers  to  some perplexing questions , and many can tell you , but if you do not believe Jesus why  would you believe anyone raised from the dead back to Life again ?

Because the dead do not know anything about God .

Only Jesus does and teaches all by the Holy Spirit that is how we are all born again [ new Life in Christ ] They are just dead letters , mere words   until they are given true meaning  and breath  the breath of God in you , your second wind and nature and Spirit  .


but here is the rub and  problem of evil , the  world is now going to hate you because of the truth living in you ..  the world loves it own and very much a respecter of persons , Where as the Love of GOD is not  at all . anyone can be saved at any time , the thing is desiring God first in your life over everything else this world could ever offer you .

Jesus showed us  how this world belongs to Satan   as the ruler of suffering and death   in Matt 4  and Luke 4      from the beginning and how He worms his way in the fruit  to corrupt it .   

Fruit that belongs to God !

We all were alive without the law once  and  breaking it  , not aware there is a law  to live by  and were suffering to live , but death come though the law and kills us , we become  sin conscience  and guilty before God ,

Like Bro Ross said , the tree of knowledge of good and evil  is that tree that we are all born eating  and it  is in that DAY  we are dead  to God  from the fruit of our doings [Adam =mankind ]  of this particular tree in the garden of God .   

  I recall reading in the scriptures Jesus telling anyone reading  His  true  testimony /witness , make the tree good and it fruit good  or make the tree corrupt and its fruit   a tree is known by its fruit . 

  This made no sense to me at all , But I asked Jesus what do you mean Jesus ?  ,  How ? I do not understand at all how to do this , guess it was because I did not want to choose  , but wanted the best of both worlds     :sigh:

The good and the perfect  , not possible  in my own substance , but I sure wore myself out trying to please God and myself  :blush:  They call this straddling the fence  and it sure does rip you in two   and that is a suffering  of itself .


Jesus Christ is the only One whom can give the right to the way of the Tree of Life and open up heaven for you ,

  Heaven is not so much a literal  physical  place  , but  a state of just being in the presence of God  , to me so far  it is everywhere [a realm ]  but  hidden  to the natural eyes of mankind and only Jesus can heal us , make us well and whole , complete in Him  and give us the  eyes to see it HIM / THE FATHER ]  and ears to Hear the Spirit [ God is Spirit & Truth ] and heart to understand    His Wisdom ,
  It is His righteousness  that makes the path  though mercy and forgiveness , the wrath of mankind has never ever  worked any righteousness of God , only self righteousness and it is filthy rags    in Gods sight  and will never see Him on our own  fruit of our doing . you have to obey Jesus Christ in order  to Know Him .Love God first the source of all   Things powerful and in motion  and love everyone a like as you do your own self and want what is best   for all , self included .
Without Him you will do nothing but spin your wheels and  cog up and stumble often .   God knows how much we all have  failed the tests of faith  to just get where we are now ,,,

This turned out a lot longer  than originally planned . My apologies for the long windiness .
I hope you stick around   brother  , suffering  within  Christ now has its  glorious rewards  for sure ,  it is true riches  that nothing in this world could possibly offer  Like Marie said it is LIFE itself   and there is no end in this .

  The dead in sin and trespass , and held by it  ,shall hear His voice and Live  !! one of my most favorite  Living Words is this ,,, John 5
The Father and the Son
...24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment.

Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.


25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.... 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man....   The Light has come and unconditional love  is in Him , come as you are , just believe in Him to do it   for you !! 

  God bless you  with more of Him   and all ... 

[rosered]

I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised  Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't  protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.

Welcome Ash!

One of the things that makes the gospel good news to me is that our Father is so good that he wants us to be able to go through the absolute worst that we can imagine and yet still be able to trust and be full of joy and at rest in our father. I'm not sure how else he could have taught us to love our enemies outside of letting hatred into the world. I don't see how else he could have taught us that all misery, sorry, difficulty, and pain is nothing when God our father is light and in Him is no darkness at all. That he sent his son to suffer and be tortured and hated in some way proves to me that those things are necessary to go through if we are to be perfected.

George Macdonald puts it best, "He has not two thoughts about us. With him all is simplicity of purpose and meaning and effort and end--namely, that we should be as he is, think the same thoughts, mean the same things, possess the same blessedness. It is so plain that any one may see it, every one ought to see it, every one shall see it. It must be so. He is utterly true and good to us, nor shall anything withstand his will."

"He can be revealed only to the child; perfectly, to the pure child only. All the discipline of the world is to make men children, that God may be revealed to them."

  Welcome  itivino  !!   
  I enjoyed your post !!   Blessings   , is this  name ,   the new wine ?
Jesus miracle from water into wine  !
The blood of Jesus Christ , the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world !! 

Many blessings in His holy name   :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

For me, it is understanding what God says through His written word, "There is none like me"

and it is seeing the difference between "believing" something is true and "knowing" something is true

Yes, we can "believe" that statement is true, but do we "know" it is true; do we know it as "TRUTH"

The only way God could prove that statement to be truth is to create a place (the physical universe) where He cannot be physically seen (yet some of mankind did in His Son who walked this earth), but where His presence can be physically felt and heard, and that is because He lives inside us, for some only a dormant seed that has yet to be watered to start the growing process.

We cannot find God by searching this outside world, we find Him only by looking inward, into ourselves, for the kingdom of God is within us and that is where He resides.

The reason we see so much suffering and death in this physical world is because outside the presence of God exists "all that He is not" and until we search for "all that He is" inside of ourselves, death and suffering will continue to be manifested through this corrupted flesh in this physical world.

To understand more than what God is "all that is good" is to want to understand "all that He is not", thus the reason He allowed (did not prevent/protect) us to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of the knowledge of "all that He is" and "all that He is not"

He allowed (did not prevent/protect) us to eat so God could prove to us that "There is none like Him", it had to become Truth to us, not just something that is true.

In other words, it had to become His Son (Truth) in us, someone we "KNOW" not "just" someone we "believe", though believing is part of the process

Hearing is the beginning of the process of believing and believing leads to knowing and "knowing" is the revealing of Truth

Which relates to the pattern of the Tabernacle:
We "hear" in the outer court (we hear in the Spirit)
We "believe" in the inner court (we believe in the Son)
We "know" in the Holy of Holies (we know in the Father)

We know the Father in/by/through believing the Son (the Word) in/by/through hearing in their Spirit which is One

[eaglesway]

One reason God allows suffering is because He is teaching us love. The God of Christian Universalism will save all through the chaos of time and the ages, until all are one in the joy of love. God could have prevented us from ever experiencing pain, but then we could never have become one with him, in friendship, in family, in wisdom, the deep waterfall of boundless rejoicing in light and harmony that will someday belong to everyone in the universe because Jesus showed the way,laying down His life for all.

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" John 12:32

"He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev 21:5

In our faith, the words "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". Phil 2:9-11... is the fulfillment of universal reconciliation.... the promise made in soooo many verses it is hard to miss once you see it :o)


For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:15-21


He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:9-11

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:25-28

[marie glen]

    :cloud9: Great posts! :thumbsup: I agree with Rose.. so nice to read others thoughts, etc.. Life changing things learned.. or experienced..

[Shev]

Welcome, Ash brother!

[jabcat]

Ash, this is from a post made earlier today in another thread by Rodger Tutt.  Fits here;  "When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."  Amen.

[Dandelion]

I'm Ash (a male). I was born in the late seventies. I don't have much of a heart warming story to tell, so I'll keep it brief. I am was raised  Catholic, though I'm actually closer to being an agnostic or an atheist. The main reason of mine for not truly believing in a god is because a hypothetically good, benign, and all powerful deity would not allow any suffering, and yet in all of the religions of the world, all of the gods allows suffering, including the biblical one (OT and NT). So then what is the point of God saving all if he didn't  protect people from harm in the first place (i.e. Adam and Eve). Then the idea that he has all of these corrupt institutions, the hegemony, slavery, monarchies, etc. and that he demands total subjugation and worship from his followers shows this 'god's' true character. Jesus is no better, the Angels are no better, Satan his demons and the antichrist aren't any better. They all want the same thing. So no, I am not a fully convinced bible believer or a christian though I have an open mind.

Hi Ash. Nice to meet you.

The age-old question..... Why does God allow bad things to happen?

Well, if we had to be good, if God made everyone to do His Will, we would be servants/slaves to Him, not children to Him. And that just wouldn't be love....it would be bondage. God wants us to be free...free to choose Him. To do that, He must allow us to sin. And, in sinning, we all allow evil to come into our lives, and into the world. The evil we do will ripple into other's lives.....just as the good we do, does the same.

Another reason He allows pain and suffering, I believe, is that when we learn many of the most important things that we need to know. We learn who we really are many times; we learn how much we are willing to sacrifice for, and how much we are willing to forgive others. We realize how fragile life can be, and thus, why it is so important to treasure it. We learn how evil can ruin our lives, sometimes, and the pain it causes others, and we see its ugly face for what it truly is, rather than how our society sometimes paints it.

He showed us that the evil in this world causes pain and suffering for the innocent, when they nailed a man to the cross, the day Jesus died. We learned that an innocent man was treated like a terrible criminal. For no reason other than He rattled the powers that were, at the time. Fear came upon men who were thought to be the holiest of men. And the fear of being criticized caused them to be evil.

Jesus also taught us that the evil in this world cannot be overcome with more evil, but only through love can evil be eliminated. Love your enemies; do good to those who hurt you. Do not repay evil with evil, but with good. And so on.

If we do not experience evil and love, we cannot choose, and if we cannot choose, we cannot be transformed. And God wants us to be transformed to the likeness of Christ. We must all be transformed to the likeness of Christ, to enter Heaven. And, I believe, at some point in time, we will all be in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."f

55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"g
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast and immovable. Always excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


When we allow a baby to try to walk, and it falls and cries, are we being cruel? Or are we allowing the baby to grow and develop the way it must?

My  :2c:

D.

[DanielB]

I think God's character was shown when he died for us and when he lived with humility(not exploiting who he was). Most christians(including myself) believe Jesus is the incarnation of God and we(at least most of us here) believe that God is like Jesus because Jesus is God! So you are right that Jesus is not better(or worse). As for his "demands", I guess they can be interpreted as demands and are demands but they are not the demands of a tyrant. Would you believe any father was a tyrant if he (out of love) demanded that his son/daughter not submit to slavery(especially slavery to evil)? Humans all apparently want to be a slave to something but a "slaving" for God leads to freedom. I see the rules as intending to keep us from having to experience the natural consequences(even necessary consequences) of sin rather than suffering being a punishment for disobedience. In other words, God is like a good father(because he IS the father).

I have never been satisfied with typical theodicies. My approach is to consider my ignorance(lack of wisdom) and that there must be some reason for God "allowing" evil(that is not to say "willing" it) and that God himself chose to suffer. I bite the bullet and think that evil doesn't and won't make perfect sense to me as long as I believe in both God's power and goodness. However, the apparent design of the universe, my experiences, and the fact that the universe existing and working like it does without a creator just seems so absurd that the problem of evil seems small in comparison. Basically, which is more likely? The universe exactly like this one but without God? Or humans lacking an answer to the problem of evil through our own immense ignorance?

[AshaMithra]

Thanks for the replies and insight everybody.

Actually, Ash is my internet name here, and in my case, it originates from "Asha" not Asher. Asha can be translated roughly from the Avestan language as truth, righteousness or existence, all of which I've been searching for the meaning of.

At one time in my life, a part of me wanted to convert to Zoroastrianism, though I quickly learned you have to be born into it and both parents had to be Zoroastrian (neither of mine are). Also, looking back, I hardly know anything about the religion or its history.  I don't have that much Persian blood flowing within me anyway (I'm mostly of Mediterranean ancestry). I liked the concept of Ahura Mazda.  The existence of evil makes more sense because he had an evil and almost equal but inferior counterpart in the form of Ahriman/Angra Mainyu (The other theory is that Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu are emanations of Ahura Mazda or that Ormazd and Ahriman come from an even higher being called Zurvan. In the Gathas of Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda was truly supreme, though). The Angels in that belief system kind of made sense because they were emanations of God/Ahura Mazda. Otherwise if God made Angels, then why did he need humans?  Then, I came to realize that Mazda and the God of the bible, at least in some way, were the same being. Seeing this, and seeing that some forms of both the Mazdean religion and Christianity taught Universalism, I once entertained the idea of Christian Universalism.

Then I had to ask questions for myself, which is when doubt set in. My search lead me to David Icke's website. I've heard of him before that. I've always heard voices. Several years ago, I felt everyone was out to get me. The voices became unbearable, so I tried to kill myself. I ended up being hospitalized, and now I take medication for my major depression, anxiety and psychotic symptoms.

Although I don't believe everything Icke writes, I do believe religion was ultimately conceived to control people. As someone who likes to create things, I don't exactly enjoy being told how to think or do anything to stifle my creativity. I like to create books where the characters can create multiverses (not a fan of chosen ones though for the most part).

I also have to question if a supreme being exists, would being only good limit his power?

Isn't God supposed to be beyond the concepts of life and death, existence and nonexistence, time, space, infinity, and exponentially beyond the concept of infinite dimensions?  Surely if we could hypothesize about grand concepts such as multiple dimensions or even infinite ones, wouldn't a supreme God be beyond all dimensions and beyond anything we can conceive in our imaginations?

With all of that power, why does he need us?  Why didn't he make us indestructible like the Angels? I guess I'll never find the answer to these questions in my lifetime.

Sorry if I came across as someone hostile towards UR. It's just that I have a hard time believing a wholly benevolent god when I see the horrors of this world. For me ultimately, I think I had to step away from the faith. Romans 13 was my breaking point. :(

[rosered]

  Good stuff sister D!      Listening to others helps add and not take away   from the Word of Life ...  I love that about God .

  Great thoughts Daniel B  ,,,Amen we all are trying to Know God  in our very limited and carnal natures it does not make any sense  and most walk away and go right back into the world  as they were before .


Thanks  AshaMithra  for your detailed   explanation   of you name /moniker  and   ''religious'' experiences.

I have  never  heard of David Icke  ,    I read a bit of him and  this guy has been given a wild imagination   to explore.   God does this sometimes   to those whom seek dramatic answers to the universe    it seems .

  I am being corrected all the time  by the Holy Spirit  , it is like gathering up information and trying to make it fit  and than toss that out and seek some more   ,
  I have found  a very simple and believe honest answer , that it  always comes back to , and that is digging into the Word of God  and making a real effort and not be so lazy and look for Truth  in them  and ask  Jesus to show me , sometimes it is waiting a long time , but always keeps me asking Him for Truth
This is a personal relationship I treasure more than  all relationships  I have ever known combined  .I love this place , because many , many good and honest souls have  shared what God gave them  and have helped lift me out of the pit of despair on any certain day , or have me dig in ,looking  harder for truth  ,  the truth sets us free   from the bondage of evil .

  I do believe we are  created  By God  as   both evil and good   on purpose    ,

The Gen 1 account shows us that Adam was made good  [male & female  and One ] and in Gods image [ Spirit & Fire and Truth & Love   His descriptive nature   ] and eating from the Tree of Life as well as all the trees in the Garden of God , but not the tree of knowlege  of good and evil it was forbidden and a commandment of God  for Adam  not to this   all along , way    before Eve was made even,   but while they were still a whole  and one  as  joined together  , and  Gen 2 account  when Adam was made out of the dust of the earth  evil  was present and it was not until  Eve come out of Adam as a whole/one    did things change  and take a course   that death would enter though sin  /error by the tree of knowledge of good and evil exposing it , Knowing the serpent  that God had made on the 6th day  Just as he made Adam  would   tempt and entice  the weaker part of Adam as a whole ..  Apparently  the serpent   was hoping to eat  also of this tee , because if you  read the curses God set upon Adam and Eve and the serpent , you will find that Adam was    going to suffer  great consequences   for disobedience  ,  Kicked out of the garden of God   and he would work  hard just to eat bread of heaven and spiritual food  for Life  and everything he grew would become  cursed as briers and thorns  and reaping what he sowed and laboring in vanity  to only have sin  being the dust of the earth and  feeding the serpents  belly   and death be that end ,   but not if Gods  food was given to him , by Gods mercy  on him [daily bread ] by the sweat of his brow , that is not laboring in vain , but Blessed of God and it was up to him to  choose  and learn   from that tree of knowlege of good and evil .    the fiery law of Gods jealousy   what obedience means  to God more than all the sacrifices  Adam[mankind]  could ever make   to Him .. 
Now for Eve  being the mother of all the living  and  the weaker vessel would be blessed in childbearing and would have  her husband rule over her  till his death come .  but her heart would be pierced though in sorrow  by all the death that comes  to her living children
and we know the serpent gets to eat lots of dust and flesh  and  never be hungry  as long as sin /error missing the mark/sign /token  remains in our  flesh   , till we Hear Gods voice and  OBEY HIM  and LIVE ..One nature [evil ] was always doomed from the start    , the other nature that is apart of  Gods original design  in Adam would become a life giving SPIRIT  Being called the Lord Jesus Christ   end   result   [Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the whole world ] , the Christ is that anointing   that only God  thought the Holy Sprint anointing can accomplish   EVER .

It is real and genuine  and true, ORIGINAL from the beginning , but many false  christs   not anointed of God at all,  but by the serpents [mind  tricking them into thinking   this worldly wisdom is  Gods Wisdom ,  choosing to call themselves Gods chosen and not only deceiving their own hearts but any one else whom will listen to them [angels messengers of lies and murderers , the lie is what kills them , it is the truth that is Life   that saves anyone    !  religious Babylon is  conceived con·ceive
kənˈsēv/Submit
verb
past tense: conceived; past participle: conceived
1.
become pregnant with (a child).
"she was conceived when her father was 49"
2.
form or devise (a plan or idea) in the mind.
"the dam project was originally conceived in 1977"
synonyms:   think up, think of, dream up, devise, formulate, design, originate, create, develop

Gen 11  is the very origin of  Babel    men seeking God and trying to open heaven by their own  vexed works
vexed
[vekst]
Spell  Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
irritated; annoyed:
vexed at the slow salesclerks.
2.
much discussed or disputed:
a vexed question.
3.
tossed about, as waves.
Explore Dictionary.com


Origin of vexed Expand
late Middle English
1400-1450late Middle English word dating back to 1400-50; See origin at vex, -ed2
Related forms Expand
vexedly  [vek-sid-lee] (Show IPA), adverb
vexedness, noun
half-vexed, adjective
unvexed, adjective
vex
[veks]
Spell  Syllables
verb (used with object)
1.
to irritate; annoy; provoke:
His noisy neighbors often vexed him.
2.
to torment; trouble; distress; plague; worry:
Lack of money vexes many.
3.
to discuss or debate (a subject, question, etc.) with vigor or at great length:
to vex a question endlessly without agreeing.
4.
to disturb by motion; stir up; toss about.
5.
to afflict with physical pain.
Origin Expand
1375-1425; late Middle English vexen < Old French vexer < Latin vexāre to shake, jolt, harass, annoy, frequentative of vehere to carry, convey
 

  sounds like the serpent   ORIGIN  and devils works to  me    :sigh:   

They cannot handle the truth [ Lord Jesus Christ ]  and cannot  speak the truth but LIE   ,   The LIE  that kills us all though the knowledge of good and evil   making every last one of us guilty of sin before GOD    [Romans chapters 7 &  8 ] 
  this tree is the knowledge of sin nature  and  ministration of DEATH ..

John 8 The Children of the Devil
...43Why do you not understand what I am saying?


It is because you are unable to accept My message.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him.

When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!...!!!!!!!!!!!!


  You are of your father the devil because a lie is what started[origin] of  the  whole   painful  and suffering and dying  process in this world and it is increasing and being exposed  daily as the Light shines on it  , it is only when  the Lords Sprint  gives us His Holy Sprint to discern   good and evil by exercising us in it  by faith in the TRUTH [WORD OF GOD  heaven  /LORD JESUS CHRIST /under heaven ]  as those  in Hades /Sheol  graves [as dead men walking ]  do not have a clue of Gods desire ..that none should perish but all should come to the knowledge of the truth and they will !!    every knee will bow and every tongue confess    JESUS IS LORD  OF ALL .



But there  is good news , great news even "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham's bosom?"   MUCH !! GOD HAS GOT THIS AND IT ALL COVERED BY HIM !! 

I am learning as I go , I kid you not !  God is teaching us His wisdom and truth when we sincerely seek Him with our whole hearts  and not partial  in any way , but desire HIM !!! ONLY HIM and not some  knowledge to appease  a fear of what if  there is a God and I missed out some how ...

  I hope to share some thoughts on   that above  question  soon , this post  has been so long already :eek: , but only if you want to    brother ..
There is some great info  on this site already and many , brothers and sister with some good    thoughts on  them  already  if you are seeking Gods kingdom that cannot be  moved      and a real relationship with   the One whom created you for His glory
as well as everything He ever made    , that being All in All ....
  One that thought  that blew me away   , when God  destroyed   the earth and all that was in it  with a flood  in Noahs day , I was shocked to learn that their thoughts were evil continually......

  My mind was not prepared for what  was explained  , they were just thinking of every  day things of this life and world  , like getting up and feeding the animals and   taking a bath and such things like that  . I did  not consider  that  the focus on the world was evil  , but it is!!    bad   and     we / they never considered the Lord in anything   but existing and doing as we please or have to do  by necessity  ,   Only Noah found grace in Gods sight  ,because He thought of God and loved  to communicate with Him   , This scripture of keeping our eyes on Jesus had a whole new meaning from that point on ... Our everything really ... :dsunny:

[AshaMithra]

This seems no different than what the ECT believers teach, IMO. So what are we? Children of God or Satan?

It just doesn't make sense to me that a benevolent God would set up his creation to fail. Yet, how is it our fault if he foreordained this? Because the bible says so?  The same levels of scrutiny and criticism we apply to everything else should also apply to the bible and religion in general. Also, Where you are born will is a major contributing factor of your religious beliefs.

If god knew his little project would fail, he never should have started it in the first place. Magic man in the sky.

If this is what God really is, I'd rather not be in his heaven. :/

[rosered]

This seems no different than what the ECT believers teach, IMO. So what are we? Children of God or Satan?

It just doesn't make sense to me that a benevolent God would set up his creation to fail. Yet, how is it our fault if he foreordained this? Because the bible says so?  The same levels of scrutiny and criticism we apply to everything else should also apply to the bible and religion in general. Also, Where you are born will is a major contributing factor of your religious beliefs.

If god knew his little project would fail, he never should have started it in the first place. Magic man in the sky.

If this is what God really is, I'd rather not be in his heaven. :/

  Oh my no  Ash ,
I think  many things  we think are all wrong about God 
  and   so sorry you think that is what I was saying ..   :doh:

[Eleutheros]

Thanks for the replies and insight everybody.

Asha can be translated roughly from the Avestan language as truth, righteousness or existence, all of which I've been searching for the meaning of.

Good Day, Asha!

I've been following this thread with considerable interest and I want to say thank you for giving the folks here a chance to explain why they believe what they believe. Not many who find the Christian God, Jehovah, somewhat lacking in credibility will do what you did.

So, given your actions, and your words, and with your permission, may I think of you as an agnostic more than an atheist? A seeker of truth, more than an antagonist of religion?

I liked the concept of Ahura Mazda.  The existence of evil makes more sense because he had an evil and almost equal but inferior counterpart in the form of Ahriman/Angra Mainyu (The other theory is that Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu are emanations of Ahura Mazda or that Ormazd and Ahriman come from an even higher being called Zurvan. In the Gathas of Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda was truly supreme, though).

Being an American, raised on Television, The News, The US Constitution, The Spirit of Self-dependence, and King James Version Christianity, I obviously do not have the same way of thinking that you obtained from your culture. But, that doesn't mean I can't gain an understanding through study!

So, from that study, I drew a conclusion that I would like to ask you about concerning the Eastern understandings that attempt to explain how human beings came into existence and how, or even why,  we became the kind of people that we are - beings who know the difference between good and evil and yet cannot bring to reality the ideal society such knowledge incorporates into us.

My question is this: Would you agree with my conclusion that Eastern philosophy is principally concerned with finding a balance between good and evil? That somehow both must exist in a person for the person to be "complete," but, in a state of reconciliation if that person is to live in truthfulness and thus in righteousness?

If not, then could I ask you to help me understand why my conclusion is incorrect?

The Angels in that belief system kind of made sense because they were emanations of God/Ahura Mazda. Otherwise if God made Angels, then why did he need humans?  Then, I came to realize that Mazda and the God of the bible, at least in some way, were the same being. Seeing this, and seeing that some forms of both the Mazdean religion and Christianity taught Universalism, I once entertained the idea of Christian Universalism.

What were those similarities?

I know a question like that that would take a lot of typing to answer, but you are the first person I've had a chance to ask questions of and learn from concerning Eastern thinking.

However, if that question is one you'd rather not spend that much effort on, please feel free to opt out.

You will have my understanding.

Then I had to ask questions for myself, which is when doubt set in. My search lead me to David Icke's website. I've heard of him before that. I've always heard voices. Several years ago, I felt everyone was out to get me. The voices became unbearable, so I tried to kill myself. I ended up being hospitalized, and now I take medication for my major depression, anxiety and psychotic symptoms.

Well, I believe that if you keep on asking questions, but expecting that there are answers (even if you don't like the answers at first), you will find them. So, keep on asking questions. For me, that is faith.

I am curious. If you found release from this condition, not just the surcease found in medication, would you consider it a miracle?

Although I don't believe everything Icke writes, I do believe religion was ultimately conceived to control people. As someone who likes to create things, I don't exactly enjoy being told how to think or do anything to stifle my creativity. I like to create books where the characters can create multiverses (not a fan of chosen ones though for the most part).

I agree.

However, because I perceive that We need "righteous" leaders, governments and laws, and yes, even wars, so we don't slaughter ourselves wholly out of existence, like the Bible records human beings were doing for the first thousand years or so that followed Cain murdering his brother Abel in a fit of pique, and which led Jehovah to wipe out nearly all of humanity with a Deluge, I accept that religion plays a needed part, for now, in the reigning in of humanity's tendency toward choosing evil over good.

So, I consider religion a necessary evil and, given my understanding, it is something that will be sloughed off when We are all redeemed, like the skin of animals that the first human beings were forced to wear because of the shame they felt toward their nudity after acquiring, illicitly, the knowledge of good and evil.

I also have to question if a supreme being exists, would being only good limit his power?

Isn't God supposed to be beyond the concepts of life and death, existence and nonexistence, time, space, infinity, and exponentially beyond the concept of infinite dimensions?  Surely if we could hypothesize about grand concepts such as multiple dimensions or even infinite ones, wouldn't a supreme God be beyond all dimensions and beyond anything we can conceive in our imaginations?

So one would think. The problem I perceive with our comprehensions of God is with language.

With language We can imagine all kinds of things that cannot exist. For instance we can imagine God creating a rock so big that He cannot lift it. Or Time Travel, both forward and backward, with all the weird things from that which make for very popular books and movies. Or, even a God who planed out, long before He began creating, every detail of every thing that was going to happen, including all of the evil we will do, and the good, too, and all the calamities that have happened and will happen; a God who despite his knowing, as a fact, that the first humans were going to reject Him and end up choosing evil over good, almost consistently, created them anyway.

With all of that power, why does he need us?  Why didn't he make us indestructible like the Angels? I guess I'll never find the answer to these questions in my lifetime.

So, because language gives us the ability to imagine what is truly impossible, we must learn how to ask questions in such a way that we discover answers that lead us to conclusions that are consistent from one conclusion to another.

Your question is one of those good ones.

I perceive this because the beginning of the answer is found, simply enough, in the fact that We exist, assuming you accept Divine Fiat. In other words, We were created, and so, for some reason He does need us, or at the least He wants Us to exist simply because We do.

So, with that as a beginning, We can set out hearts to discover what that need in Him is, and then We will know why We were created.   

Sorry if I came across as someone hostile towards UR. It's just that I have a hard time believing a wholly benevolent god when I see the horrors of this world. For me ultimately, I think I had to step away from the faith. Romans 13 was my breaking point. :(

You and me both!

My Western religious training left me feeling very unsatisfied because what I was taught led me to perceive King James's Jehovah as megalomaniacal and capricious; a Being who thought up all this Sin I see, and all the sinning I was doing, and yet demanded worship from me because He said that He was Love and then allowed the horrific slaughter of His Son, then resurrected Him to prove it. Then His Son said that those He redeemed from Hell were to be His bride. I did not like the idea of having King James's Jehovah as a Father-in Law for all eternity. Hell seemed better, at least I could curse Him freely for consigning me there from before I was even born.

Obviously, there was a lot I had to unlearn before I could finally find answers that satisfied me.

My satisfaction; that is the key that opened the door that I discovered through asking good questions and believing that there were answers: The key is that the only person I need to convince of the Truth is myself; the door was discovering that the KJV is an ulterior motivated translation and therefore largely unable to convey the ideology carried in the original languages of scripture.

Fortunately, those original language words were preserved, allowing even someone as low-bred as myself to investigate them and discover the true God that is Jehovah.

I think I understand Him, now.

But my understanding may not be a satisfying thing to you because of the Eastern understanding that is a part of your consciousness. Nothing wrong with that, its just a fact. The thing though, is that you have to keep asking questions, but with the belief that there are answers, which I know you are doing because you came here and invited us to respond to you.

You and I are both human beings and that means that I can know you because I can know myself; I know this because we all feel love and need love, and we like to hate when we don't get what we need or when someone hurts us. And we all have been hurt deeply by those who say they love us; and then we, in turn, hurt those we love and don't like ourselves when we do.

Sometimes we seek forgiveness for that and sometimes we prefer to nurse the hurt and choose pride over relationship.

We've all done secret things that we do not want brought into the light and likewise we have done good things from time to time that make us feel good about who we are.

We engage sex both for pleasure and for pro-creation and we sometimes feel closer to God when we have an orgasm with the one we love more than at any other time, or from anything else we can do.

And from our sexuality, We get a feeling that somehow we can know what it is like to be God when we hold our very own new-born human being for the first time.

And we ask questions of our God, like how did We get here and why am I here, and why, if You are so good and loving, I'm not; and why must I endure the suffering brought to me because of the stupidity and bad choices of others. And by my own hand, too, if I am to be honest with You and with myself.


One final question, if I may, why was Romans 13 your breaking point? Where you, perhaps, thinking of another chapter? If not, then what is in Romans 13 that broke you away from the faith, which, may I assume, was Universalism?

Be good, AshaMithra.

It is, after all, what I perceive We were created to be!

[AshaMithra]

I'm from the US. I'm just mostly of Italian, Greek and middle eastern descent (among other lineages). 

What irks me about Romans 13 is that we're supposed to be subservient to even very abusive governments and monarchies. I mean, what were the NT writers thinking? Who were they? Was Christianity created to prop up the Roman aristocracy and subdue the people? Those are the questions I have for myself.

[sheila]

 :2c:   I seeitmoreofaspiritualwarfare against powers andprincipalitiesinhigh places...andnotaphysicalrebellion/insurrection.

  Jesus said'ifmy kingdom wasofthis world..my men would fight...that I not be delivered up[like thenational/fleshly Israel warred]

cautious as a serpent...yet harmless as a dove. Christ must be a light unto the nations...hard thingtodowhenyour'e puttingthem todeath

physicallywithyoursword[ifthelight inyou be darkness..howgreatisthat darkness.

[jabcat]

Who were they?

Men whom the Holy Spirit was inspiring and speaking through;  who were totally submitted to God's will.  And had a realization that God's kingdom is not of this world, so their investment and struggle was not in this world/age, but looking to the heavenly.  They were talking about development of the spirit, destruction of carnality and self-serving interest, and "looking for a city whose builder and maker is God". 

[jabcat]

One thing I personally need to take more to heart;  the truth stands on its own.  It doesn't require our approval.

[marie glen]

I'm from the US. I'm just mostly of Italian, Greek and middle eastern descent (among other lineages). 

What irks me about Romans 13 is that we're supposed to be subservient to even very abusive governments and monarchies. I mean, what were the NT writers thinking? Who were they? Was Christianity created to prop up the Roman aristocracy and subdue the people? Those are the questions I have for myself.

..but what good does it do to make an insurrection? It gets people killed. It's better to pray.. :Peace2:

I found God in the mountains (Rocky Mountains USA) And it was actually through Easter Religion meditaion ideas, to quiet one's mind quiet enough to hear God's (quiet) voice, which sorta floats down like a feather.. a truth profound or solution to a problem.. then I was brought to the New Testament and the salvation message.

About 20 years later my son asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

I prayed for better answers than I gave him.. and the answers I got knocked my socks off and almost 20 years later, they're still knocked off and I just keep getting happier and happier, because :gsmile: "Truth sets us free" .."His Word (Logos) is truth" Logos.. Logic.. Universalism

The answer of course, is simple.. we're not an ant farm.
     :Peace2:

I think God's character was shown when he died for us and when he lived with humility(not exploiting who he was)....

....the fact that the universe existing and working like it does without a creator just seems so absurd that the problem of evil seems small in comparison. Basically, which is more likely? The universe exacally like this one but without God? Or humans lacking an answer to the problem of evil through our own immense ignorance?

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :Peace2:

[rosered]

This seems no different than what the ECT believers teach, IMO. So what are we? Children of God or Satan?

It just doesn't make sense to me that a benevolent God would set up his creation to fail. Yet, how is it our fault if he foreordained this? Because the bible says so?  The same levels of scrutiny and criticism we apply to everything else should also apply to the bible and religion in general. Also, Where you are born will is a major contributing factor of your religious beliefs.

If god knew his little project would fail, he never should have started it in the first place. Magic man in the sky.

If this is what God really is, I'd rather not be in his heaven. :/

  Oh my no  Ash ,
I think  many things  we think are all wrong about God 
  and   so sorry you think that is what I was saying ..   :doh:

I was so busy with the grandsons I could not answer you very well  ,  my apologies for that  .

So    Ash ,     Jesus said  ,  You being evil know how to gives good gifts to your children,
how much more will the Father  give    the Holy Sprint / good gifts to those whom ask Him ..

  What do  you think  He was saying ?

I know we can  and will  all  be healed and changed  though Him  , each in their own order ..

  I  know that the law was made for the lawless , so If you are  a law abiding citizen you have no problem   with worldly things , but avoid that stuff like the plague .


Wisdom  from above is pure and peaceable  , it is the wisdom from below that is  earthly sensual and devilish  ..

James 3 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast in it or deny the truth.

15Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every evil practice.  and for me  very divisive .

   Also   like Jabcat  brought up , was  inspired by the Holy Spirit   to write for our correction  these morals /lessons to  learned and practiced   and exercised    with .. a lazy man   does not satisfy his  own  soul  but struggles to  just  exist . This emptiness is real    and nothing in the world can fill it . it is a bottomless pit . :sigh:

  1 Timothy ...8Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it legitimately.


9We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous,

but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers,

10for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching...

  I think so many are just so ''conditioned''   to  constant  sin   in this world   , that they  have lost their way  .

  And it is when we begin to suffer for our mistakes than we cry out to God  for help in our hour of need  ..
This can be  a motive of the heart , if it is   for selfish  reasons   God knows the heart better than we do  or if it be in all sincerity  for the good of all   , God knows that  also ...   We have a God deserving of honor and great  glory, His mercy and love for us is  unfathomable to the human heart .
  WE have Jesus   whom is the son of God and the Son of   man , whom is set and fixed  by the Father to  open heaven for us  , it has always been the great gulf fixed    that no man can enter without  Jesus making the right of way to access by faith in Him .
It says   in  Proverbs  8 anyone  seeking the excellence of   Gods Wisdom  /Being the Lord Jesus Christ   Himself   finds Life and  obtains  favor  from Him ....    This is a  beautiful thing to grow into ! 

...35"For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD.

36"But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."

[rosered]

One thing I personally need to take more to heart;  the truth stands on its own.  It doesn't require our approval.

  Truth  !! AMEN   :thumbsup:   
  I have to ask is it easier to believe  in   God or not believe in Him ? 

God is going to SHOW  Himself to every last one  in the end  and there will be NO EXCUSES  .

  GREAT WHITE THRONE ,no where to hide from GOD but face to face ...