Does God (Really) Desire All to Be Saved?

[anti_nietzsche]

It is my view that we must sometimes look away from the bible and look unto the cross of Christ. It is finished, Jesus says there. The firewall between Israel and the world has been torn down. Now we should not want another firewall between the church and the world. Believers must always be salt and light and go into the world with their faith. Yesterday I spoke with muslim children in town and they were not hostile to me. The hostility comes later when we get grown up and christians can become infected too. We must pray, pray, pray, and be lovers of man. God loves the world so much, the diversity, the cultural variance, the blooming and growing that goes on here. In a way sometimes a person is not as important as the world. We must think cosmically, God wants to save the cosmos. Not so much doom and gloom, insteading blooming and happiness. The cross may seem dark but it is a tree of life. The bible comes back to this in the Gospel of John where Jesus explains that the day of the Lord happened on Good Friday. And later when the Israel system had been abolished by Rome destroying Jerusalem. But we must be careful lest we see in God a warmonger. Men destroyed Jerusalem - but if they had listened to Jesus and had embraced love and mercy, it would not have come as far.

[Seth]

The thing is, we know about the Cross because we have the Bible. That's the mode God used to give us that info we need. So then why would I suddenly need to look away from the the same Bible that gives us the info we need?

[marie glen]

Amen, Seth, I so very much agree.. For instance, we've been taught to overlook the "all" verses..

It's this programming and wrong perception we need to turn away from. And read the Bible with universal reconciliation in mind. For instance on the word all, just today I read Luke to 10 about how the angel said to the shepherds that the birth of Jesus was good tidings of great joy to all.

Now what kind of good news to all is it that 3/4 of mankind are going to writhe in total torment forever and ever with never any relief in sight - how is this good news? And how did we get to the point where we don't see the word all?

And in those places that've been translated other then you know verso salvation (lol, trying to use Siri.. sore arm, thought I'd leave it for a chuckle) ..we need to be diligent to search out the original words used. And read all the context, and cross-references. And also, just how many original words were translated into the inferior word and perception? Such as has been pointed out many times, the word 'hel/hell' translated from? Is it five? (Whatever happened to my memory!?)

Until we emerge to the other side.. to light instead of darkness - for surely that's what a less  than perfect plan of salvation is.. or a less than perfect creation / plan / etc - darkness (and not true).

[bushy]

I think the point here is that the bible is not the thing to be worshipped but the God of the bible is, the living word, the Word made flesh.

John 5:39  "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!"

Not saying anyone here is doing that, but it fits with what anti-n was saying about looking away from the bible and unto the cross of Christ.

[eaglesway]

The cross of Jesus is the supreme expression of the I Am, His eternal power and divine nature, but I think we need to look through the Bible to this core thought, which is the Logos of God and the single highest interpretive evidence for reconciling all that is in the scriptures. When we are determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified, as Paul did, priorities and foundations are balanced and set aright to the Chief Cornerstone.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor 3:11

I dont think people worship the Bible. They worship their own ideas of God and twist the scriptures to fit, prioritizing verses cut out of whole cloth to their preference as the Pharisees did, "You strain at the gnat and swallow the camel"...."You know neither the scriptures or the power of God"...."You know not what spirit you are of".

The true knowledge of God centered in Christ crucified brings the scriptures into proper harmony through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

"Today if you hear my voice"...."It is written, man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God".

[anti_nietzsche]

The salvation of all has always been a topic of mine since I came to believe in Jesus. It's the only way I can imagine a real God to look at salvation. The real God would be ages old and above the petty squabbles of mankind. He would himself believe in love and forgiveness and peace. Sometimes I think God is not absolutely omnipotent, because that would imply he could change everything in a second. He needs humans as his friends and he would spread wisdom and faith, hope and love instead. And that's what I find in Jesus. Not that we cannot rely on God if he's not absolutely omnipotent. We can rely on Him. But we cannot demand a million dollar lottery win or that an amputated limp grows back. That's not in it. We can instead desire spiritual riches like patience and compassion and love for each other. When a christian community like I am living in in this group home here decides for consequent agape love, things are a real pleasure. That's why we should decide to have a simple life with friends and family and a church setting. Those who learn from love learn to love everyone and that everyone is a lost or found child of God. That's what my first pastor taught me, and he had even success in healing diseases.

Those who believe God's love is smaller than his sense of meting out punishments for wrongs, they miss out on God completely already. I mean, those who love understand that the Beloved is precious and always worthy of more love. Do not decide for anger, for seeing wrath in God. That's in the bible, but only as an example of what PEOPLE were thinking, not what God actually was thinking. God would sympathize with sufferers and have pity most of all. Mercy triumphs over judgment! Watch a good video on the cross and realize the savior was dying a love and mercy death for others than Him. Someone who sacrifices himself in order to save people must be another guy than someone who lashes out in punishment!

When I am immersed in the crucified Jesus I loose my wretched will to believe in a divine wrath or anger! This is just a thought and belief of religious people to keep others in check. But it doesn't work. The criminal doesn't fear the anger of God, he fears the police.

[eaglesway]

The sentiment you express is understandable, and I agree with some of what you hav said, but it is carried too far- it goes beyond the scriptures and generalizes a subject too complex for such a blanket approach. The scriptures clearly teach, in the Old Testament and the New, and even in the words of the Lord Jesus Himself, that God can be wrathful under certain circumstances, and that His punishments upon the persistently wicked can be formidable.

It is not just what people think reflected against an image of a totally benign God. God is not totally benign, but He is ultimately benign. His ultimate intention for every soul is reconciliation and redemption, but some souls will experience chastisement at various levels on the way to that destination.

Also, God is definitely all-powerful, and He could change everything in two minutes if He wanted too- but that is not His purpose, and never was. His purpose is to bring mankind into an autonomous harmony with His divine nature, so He has set Himself in a relationship with His creation where each person must eventually capitulate, through learning and experience, to His love.

Yes mercy does triumph over judgment, but if there were no judgment there would be nothing for mercy to triumph over, and no lesson to be learned.

[Dandelion]

To anti-nietzsche:

As a Special Education teacher, I know that sometimes, I have to let the little toddlers under my care cry and be upset, so I can help them to learn to navigate, not only school, but life, itself. Sometimes their parents get very upset at their crying, and inadvertently undermine what I am trying to do. Sometimes my collegues give the children what they want, rather than what will help to change their behavior because they don't want the parents to complain, or because they don't want to make waves. My first boss called doing what would reap the greater success in their lives, "the greater kindness'.

I believe that is what God does. The greater kindness looks like cruelty, sometimes. But, what is the motive and what is being accomplished
is what is important. Even surgery can seem cruel, but it is much worst to leave someone ill, than to try to heal them.

And, I personally believe that God is omnipotent, and knows all and sees all and can do all. And, I believe He can change everything in a second. But, I also believe often it is the process, that is most important.....the transformation. Probably much more for us, than for Him.

So, those are my thoughts, anti.

May the Holy Spirit guide us all.

D. 

[marie glen]

The salvation of all has always been a topic of mine since I came to believe in Jesus. It's the only way I can imagine a real God to look at salvation. The real God would be ages old and above the petty squabbles of mankind. He would himself believe in love and forgiveness and peace.

Amen! :iagree:

Sometimes I think God is not absolutely omnipotent, because that would imply he could change everything in a second.

I think sister D. has a great take on this.. as I think of it too, as, is it better to allow all to learn an all important basic truth (imo, that He is life and perfection, therefor to rationalize or choose other than He chooses is to be imperfect, the opposite of life, thus can never ever work but will aLways result in nonlife.. imo :gsmile: ) Or is it better to somehow program all able to think and reason creatures (man and angel) to never think outside God's will.. would we then have to be forever very small children?? Or He would never create rational creatures..? I think He could change all things in an instant, but it's my belief that He could see all possibilities before ever doing an act of creation, and has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities..

He needs humans as his friends

..and I think as His very own family.. of many beautiful branches.. including the angels..

When a christian community like I am living in in this group home here decides for consequent agape love, things are a real pleasure. That's why we should decide to have a simple life with friends and family and a church setting. Those who learn from love learn to love everyone and that everyone is a lost or found child of God.

Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Those who believe God's love is smaller than his sense of meting out punishments for wrongs, they miss out on God completely already. I mean, those who love understand that the Beloved is precious and always worthy of more love. Do not decide for anger, for seeing wrath in God. That's in the bible, but only as an example of what PEOPLE were thinking, not what God actually was thinking. God would sympathize with sufferers and have pity most of all. Mercy triumphs over judgment! Watch a good video on the cross and realize the savior was dying a love and mercy death for others than Him. Someone who sacrifices himself in order to save people must be another guy than someone who lashes out in punishment!

Amen! tho I lean toward thinking of the "wrath of God" as usually simply natural consequences.. (and different from His correction of believers, when needed, should their feet stray to paths of destruction and suffering, etc)

And how He dealt strictly with Israel in order to prepare a place somewhat prepared for Messiah to be born into, etc, rather than in the midst of tree worshippers of something.. And also to describe transgressions.. I do believe, for instance Leviticus 18 as to what is good and right and what isn't, still applies, but in Jesus, all is forgiven, which pardon, forgiveness and reconciliation, of course was all engineered by God. And all, ultimately will be thoroughly reconciled to Him thereby. :HeartThrob:

And also - 1 Peter 3:9 reflects HIS nature - Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing.

yet, Deuteronomy 32:35, Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.'

I didn't look up the context of the Deuteronomy verse, and don't remember it, but I do know there were some really cruel and barbaric practices going on by some very cruel and barbaric characters - like beating the drums of Tophet to drown out the screams of children and babies as they were placed alive in fire as sacrifices to other 'gods' ! ..despots, terrorists, predators cruelly and heartlessly abuse many, what God worth his salt wouldn't be angered by it.. I even believe there will be some bit of vindication on Judgment 'day' for victims.. and remember He witnesses all.. being Life, He experiences it all.. and isn't "wrath" the only language some will understand? And don't we all need to learn that lesson too? What is the sense to letting evil (imperfection) be shown for what it is, if the very lowest of the low, and lowest depravity is prevented and not portrayed? (I believe such is the 'bottomless pit / abyss of Rev chapter 9.. evil, imperfection, having a bottomless abyss of possibility, so children touch it not! ever! He is writing / engraving, imo, His law of total LOVE on every heart, mind and psyche and what teaches better than experience... and the Holy Ghost :thumbsup: )

When I am immersed in the crucified Jesus I loose my wretched will to believe in a divine wrath or anger! This is just a thought and belief of religious people to keep others in check. But it doesn't work. The criminal doesn't fear the anger of God, he fears the police.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I believe the word "wrath" #G3709 has a wider range than anger.. or wrath - including "impulse and passion"  :dontknow: to me, that verse means if I am not reconciled through Jesus, the results and consequences of being sinful (imperfect, "missing the mark, failure") is still upon me.. including death and any and all calamity that may arise through my doings, etc.. and also happenstance or that is, the doings of others.. after all if imperfection is let to run its course, continually interfering would work totally against it.. thus nothing learned, nothing gained..
    :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

God does not "lash out" in anger. If God is angry He takes a patient, forbearing and considered approach in His response to whatever or whomever has incurred His wrath, but there is literally NO WAY to avoid the scriptural fact that God does get angry, and His anger can be fearful. it may not be comfortable for us to accept that this is true, but the scriptures are very clear that it is so, and Jesus also became angry on several occasions- as when He clear the buyers and sellers from His Father's house using a whip. His anger must have been awesome to behold or some of them would have just ganged up and overpowered Him.

If we believe eternal torment in hell is a myth, that does not mean we should go to the other extreme and make a myth of the wrath of God, which is abundantly testified to in scripture.

IMO it causes us, as universalists, to lose credibility.

My belief in UR is based, profoundly upon the scriptures, so I do not want to void the testimony by invalidating the very holy writings upon which my beliefs are founded. The scriptures undergird and testify to the philosophical arguments against eternal torment- not the other way around.

I would say Sodom and Gomorrah is one example of God's anger, and His punishment, as was Lot's wife turning to a pillar of stone- there are so many to choose from actually.

If we fail to deal with the issue of evil and God's attitude and willingness to act against the persistent pursuit of predatory oppression, we do not understand why we bear witness and warn the evil man to depart from his ways, why God destroyed the "world that was" with water, and why this present evil age abides under death and the wrath of God until the kingdom of God has subjected all the adversaries. If we do not accept God's definitions of evil.... it is because WE are deceived- not because the scriptures are in error or to be taken lightly in view our enlightened philosophy and Sesame Street religion.

Along with the blessed good news that all of God's counsels end in mercy, if we refuse to stand with Him for the judgment that will occur for many along the way to that destination, we are sliding down the slippery slope by which Unitarian Universalism emerged from what was once a vibrant, biblically based community of universalists who understood that Jesus is Lord.  I, for one, have no inclination to co-operate with that influence. :2c: :2c:


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.......They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Romans 1

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality......Romans 2

[eaglesway]

Just to comment on the righteous judgement of God and how we are to deal with it. We do not judge people. We do testify to the righteousness of God revealed in Jesus Christ, the ultimate testimony of mercy. That righteousness forgives all for all, but not without accountability for their words, attitudes and actions, so we also testify that God will judge, in His various ways, to bring all adversaries to their knees so that they may receive mercy before the throne of grace. As Jude testified...

8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever(to the age).....

It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him....

But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh."