A web page - http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-really-desire-all-to-be-saved
here's what the article says:
Quote
On the extent of who will be saved, the Bible makes two clear points:
God desires that all sinners be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23; Matthew 23:37).
God chose some people from eternity past (the elect), to be saved unconditionally, and only those elect will genuinely respond to the gospel and be saved (Matthew 22:14; John 6:37, 44, 65; 8:47; 10:26–29; Romans 8:29–30; 9:6–23; 11:5–10; 1 Corinthians 1:26–30; Ephesians 1:4–5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5).
But how these two biblical truths (that seem to contradict) actually relate, has perplexed theologians and inquiring Christian minds for many centuries, sparking vigorous debates and (more recently) fiery comment threads on Facebook.
This pair of doctrines force questions like:
Can God genuinely will that all be saved (1), and yet only choose to save only some, the elect (2)?
Is it even logical to hold that God can at the same time will salvation for all (1), and not will salvation for all (2)?
If (1) and (2) are true, is God schizophrenic or confused? (1 Corinthians 14:33)
Or can a sovereign, all-powerful God who does whatever he pleases, hold wishful desires for the salvation of all that he cannot fulfill?
Which leads to asking, is there a power in the universe greater than God, frustrating his desires?
Or can God will in different ways simultaneously?
Or should modern Christians simply downplay election in order to highlight God's desire for the salvation of all?
Because if we equally hold to election, isn't our general offer of the gospel to all sinners disingenuous?
And won't election erode the energy and incentive for global missions and evangelism that we derive from God's desire for all to be saved?
And how does the ultimate aim of God's own glory factor into this discussion?
These are just a few of the thick questions involved.
Finding the answers is like climbing Mount Everest. Not everyone is up for the climb, but we believe it can be done, and there are guides to help if you want to make the attempt. John Piper offers himself as a Sherpa of sorts for the steep climb in his new little book, Does God Desire All to Be Saved?
If you're asking these types of questions — and if you're up for the climb — the 50-page book is available as a free download here, or purchase here.
Likely locked up in a box titled "all during this life span only"
Are there any verses which say, after this life, all hope is lost? (besides by Dante? which line I believe is his(?)
And besides the verse where Jesus tells the pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins.. which to me simply means to die in one's sins is to rise in one's sins.. but to say it is an 'eternal' state is, imo, to go further than what the Word of God actually says.. although as we know the translations say "for ever and ever" etc.. (from aionian, etc / eon / age - 'day')
:Peace2: :cloud9:
on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were
overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the
elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride
and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could
exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...
so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt. any jealousy between Judah and
Israel must go. :2c:
Well, this "Sherpa" must go up to I Corinthians 3:10-15 -
"10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
SO - if your works endure, you get a reward, and I'm thinking that reward will be to inherit in the Kingdom as a co-heir with Christ. I tend to think this group is the Elect.
OTOH, if your works are burned up, you will still be saved, but you will suffer loss. I tend to think that the loss is the right to inherit in the Kingdom, making you of a lower rank than the Elect.
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2017, 06:13:20 PM
on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were
overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the
elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride
and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could
exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...
so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt. any jealousy between Judah and
Israel must go. :2c:
Amen Sheila!
Quote from: Patinak on April 07, 2017, 10:40:33 AM
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2017, 06:13:20 PM
on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were
overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the
elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride
and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could
exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...
so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt. any jealousy between Judah and
Israel must go. :2c:
Amen Sheila!
And amen again ! Word of God speaks ''living Words of Life '' to our hearts ,letting us know ,the kingdom of God is within you /near you , close as a brother ! The lease you have done unto the little ones you have done unto Me ..
To'' GOD BE THE GLORY'' for all He has done , does and doing . ... Was , is, and will be .
Matthew 18
Quote from: rosered on April 07, 2017, 12:31:59 PM
Quote from: Patinak on April 07, 2017, 10:40:33 AM
Quote from: sheila on April 06, 2017, 06:13:20 PM
on that day God alone will be exalted.......no flesh shall boast.the saints were
overcome . because of these three testimonies,such statements....as 'we are of the
elect" etc...I can not stomach anymore. Remembering Israel's fall d/t exclusivitiy/pride
and frankly the state of Christendom....it is beside me how any man could
exalt/elevate himself over another. as we have all bore the image of the corrupt...
so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt. any jealousy between Judah and
Israel must go. :2c:
Amen Sheila!
And amen again ! Word of God speaks "living Words of Life " to our hearts ,letting us know ,the kingdom of God is within you /near you , close as a brother ! The lease you have done unto the little ones you have done unto Me ..
To" GOD BE THE GLORY" for all He has done , does and doing . ... Was , is, and will be .
Matthew 18
Amen Sheila and Rose! Great posts
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 06, 2017, 07:06:55 PM
Well, this "Sherpa" must go up to I Corinthians 3:10-15 -
"10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
SO - if your works endure, you get a reward, and I'm thinking that reward will be to inherit in the Kingdom as a co-heir with Christ. I tend to think this group is the Elect.
OTOH, if your works are burned up, you will still be saved, but you will suffer loss. I tend to think that the loss is the right to inherit in the Kingdom, making you of a lower rank than the Elect.
Amen! (and to all posts above!)
Imagine working for many years, proclaiming "burn or turn" (oops, make that turn or burn :laughing7: ) or some such, which btw, rather ridicules our heavenly Father and His Saving Gospel/Good News.. So though such may gain some benefit.. some coming to the faith, I believe it pushes many (many) more away.. Quite a dilemma really.. No wonder many who preach don't mention it.. that, I believe is rather wise.. But I can't help but confront it rather than ignore it.. but which does get one into trouble sometimes.. but i think of the world wide web as an open door..
doesnt say anywhere in the Bible that this life is absolutely our last chance...to the contrary, didnt Jesus preach to the souls in prison from Noah's time ?...if there's anything the Bible has, it's hope.
Yes Darryl, faith , Hope and Love , love is the greatest sacrifice :HeartThrob:
It says anyone whom hates brother is same as a murderer and we see hate in this world because of all the killing in the literal ,
but the same can be said of thinking with the carnal mind of death , making us all weak in the sense of humanness and frailty ,
powerless over the elements , but we have Jesus ,Greater is He that is in you than in the world , having the strength of Christ in you the HOPE of glory to God and overcoming the world by the LOVE OF GOD working in you by the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE .
This has no end or beginning But is with you always ,to the end of the earthly .
1John 3 Love One Another
...14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers.
The one who does not love remains in death.
15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers....
Laying down our lives is the same type of sacrifice of Love is overcoming the world [ same Cross of forgiveness of the worlds sin and errors of doing, BEING ''DEATH'' ] Jesus SAID , laying it down to TAKE IT BACK UP AGAIN , a better Resurrection for sure and many times over .... Spiritually speaking , This is the working of the Holy Spirit of Life within us to me that not all have obtained while being mortal still .
Who ever wants to save his life shall loose it and whom ever losses his life for my sake shall find it , We find what Love really means and is ! :HeartThrob:
:2c: entering in joy vs entering/inheriting without joy. as we approach the fullness of the measure of Christ..our JOY increases.
...joy is a most desirable fruit of the spirit. Consider the meager fruitage of joy..due to little faith....only a few saved. to the bounty
and abundance of the salvation of His whole creation. Joy at the work of His hands! delight and awe of your Father and Jesus'work.
faith in the assured expectation . when I'm called home I expect a great crowd no man can number..I expect
all who have died to be there to greet me..no men dead in their graves waiting for the resurrection........the loss as far as I can see
is the great joy that could have been..but was not..because we/you had such little faith and were thinking/depending on the work of
our/ men's hands[with gold/silver/wood/hay stubble] the joy that was,was not, yet is...versus the carnal beast that was is not yet is...
that overcomes/kills the testimony of the two witnesses[Jesus and God] so it appears the Word of God was of no effect and fruitless.
man..though held in honour....without understanding is as the beast that perisheth. John 6;50 this is the bread that cometh
down from heaven that a man may eat thereof and not die....spiritual bread and life-giving substinance for your spirit eternally.
......all my religious works of self-righteousness become a heap of rubble....a testimony to my little faith...but His burning them
up and the suffering of their loss/dross of them opened the door to a roomier place.....life more abundantly in HIM....
...leaving my own carnal building program behind....I can place Him as a seal on my heart and arm...assured that He will cause
desire in my heart to do His will [arm]....and knowing I can do nothing of myself..but remaining in Him...He can find use for us
to do His pleasure...respecting His headship and trusting in His administration..instead of trying to administer/direct myself.
if He does not draw them on this side[levites encamped around the tabernacle..not the other tribes] who are we to judge/tell
Him differently?surely we know His power by now...that He can cause a Cyrus that doesn't even know Him to desire and do his will.
Surely God's goodness and sweetness..is the remedy for the bitterness of this expierence of evil....and will heal His creation..
and His arm is not too short to accomplish all He has said He will do. So rejoice along with me,today..that He is ours and we are His.
.......
Quote from: sheila on April 09, 2017, 05:21:03 PM
So rejoice along with me,today..that He is ours and we are His.
amen!
Amen., I saw a movie or program not long ago where loved ones who thought one another had perished - died in a calamity, but after a while found each other alive and were oh SO happy! And of course I had to think of our Heavenly Father's ultimate victory when all have been resurrected and brought to the faith.. all loved ones united.. oh what glory!! [how can any believer not believe that!? The 'other' gospel is so meager.. so terribly narrow - and the narrow way means truth in this world is narrow with wide ditches on either side.. noT that His kingdom is narrow :dsunny:
P.S. - don't they know He's perfect?
This is about God's desire for all to be saved.
Are there actual verses where God does save all?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 01, 2017, 02:59:06 AM
This is about God's desire for all to be saved.
Are there actual verses where God does save all?
It is not stated directly so much, but it is stated that saving all is God's Will. His Plan, however, seems to be to save some, then others, then all. I came to the realization that since God is all-powerful, then His Will will certainly be done. I keep asking of Damnationists how anyone can still be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed, but have not gotten a good answer so far. I have also asked how God can ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, and again, no good answer. I do get called a Heretic.
I think God often fails to tells us right up front, so we have to go into Scripture over and over to find the nuggets of Truth...and it's a good thing because the Bible says it is the Glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to disclose them. [that's from memory] So you see, we are being told that anyone who can wring a new Truth from Scripture is a King!
Jesus said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" Jn 12:32
and Paul said,"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Cor 1522
In my opinion, there are many verses that plainly state that all will be saved unless you are twisting things to fit ET.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.…
It is twisting the truth of these verses to say at that time it is too late to repent and be saved, and people will be forced to confess Jesus as Lord before they are thrown into the fire. How can that be "To the glory of God"? Our Father is not a communist dictator. He forgives His enemies and if we want to be like Him we will forgive ours too.
1 John 4:14
"The Father has sent His Son to be the savior of the world". Does that mean He gave it His best shot and failed? Of course not because God is love and love never ever fails.
:thumbsup:
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Thanks all.
eaglesway, where was that last verse from?
Colossians chapter 1. Paul goes into great detail there to explain that all will be reconciled :o)
I heard that some calvinist preachers say all does not mean all. How to reply to them?
Quote from: Cristina100 on May 02, 2017, 07:36:02 PM
I heard that some calvinist preachers say all does not mean all. How to reply to them?
if the word #all# doesnt meant #all# then one can make the Bible say what they like.
Amen!!
I like how Ephesians 1:9-10 says it -
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
~ the mystery of His will... that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
And, Psalm 22:27
27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
and so many more.. both straight forward and implied..
I like Jabcat's list of 77 -
- http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
And, the back of the book! :laughing7:
"Behold I make all things new" - "there shall be NO MORE death, NOR PAIN, nor SORROW" none, nada.. no-where.. right? (The whole outside the gates" and "outer darkness" therefore, must be a looking backward.. For He says at a certain point in time - "the fullness of time" / "He shall be all in all" - that there shall be no pain.. no suffering.. i.e. no torment.. :gsmile:
But this I think is my personal favorite -
1 Corinthians 15:22-28
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
....1 Corinthians 15:22-28New King James Version (NKJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father... that God may be all in all.
:banana:
Quote from: Cristina100 on May 02, 2017, 07:36:02 PM
I heard that some calvinist preachers say all does not mean all. How to reply to them?
IMO the most comprehensive definition of "the all" is in Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
All that was created
All that He is before
Everything over which He reigns supreme
The word "pas" means all and it is used in everyplace in Col 1 15-20 that says "all" or "everything". If He is reconciling "all"- it is the same "all" which He created.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3
This is not the only place where this is stated. It is also stated in 1 Cor 15:28
When
all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be
all in all.
This verse shows that after "every knee bows"(2 Phil:9-11), God will become
all in allAlso in Romans 11:32-36
32 For God has shut up
all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to
all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory
And Eph 1:9-11
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is,
the summing up(gathering together into one kjv) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.Not to mention our Lord's own words
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John 12:32
and
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rv 21:5
If
all does not mean
all in
all these verses, how can we depend on the scriptures at
all? :o)
It is my view that we must sometimes look away from the bible and look unto the cross of Christ. It is finished, Jesus says there. The firewall between Israel and the world has been torn down. Now we should not want another firewall between the church and the world. Believers must always be salt and light and go into the world with their faith. Yesterday I spoke with muslim children in town and they were not hostile to me. The hostility comes later when we get grown up and christians can become infected too. We must pray, pray, pray, and be lovers of man. God loves the world so much, the diversity, the cultural variance, the blooming and growing that goes on here. In a way sometimes a person is not as important as the world. We must think cosmically, God wants to save the cosmos. Not so much doom and gloom, insteading blooming and happiness. The cross may seem dark but it is a tree of life. The bible comes back to this in the Gospel of John where Jesus explains that the day of the Lord happened on Good Friday. And later when the Israel system had been abolished by Rome destroying Jerusalem. But we must be careful lest we see in God a warmonger. Men destroyed Jerusalem - but if they had listened to Jesus and had embraced love and mercy, it would not have come as far.
The thing is, we know about the Cross because we have the Bible. That's the mode God used to give us that info we need. So then why would I suddenly need to look away from the the same Bible that gives us the info we need?
Amen, Seth, I so very much agree.. For instance, we've been taught to overlook the "all" verses..
It's this programming and wrong perception we need to turn away from. And read the Bible with universal reconciliation in mind. For instance on the word all, just today I read Luke to 10 about how the angel said to the shepherds that the birth of Jesus was good tidings of great joy to all.
Now what kind of good news to all is it that 3/4 of mankind are going to writhe in total torment forever and ever with never any relief in sight - how is this good news? And how did we get to the point where we don't see the word all?
And in those places that've been translated other then you know verso salvation (lol, trying to use Siri.. sore arm, thought I'd leave it for a chuckle) ..we need to be diligent to search out the original words used. And read all the context, and cross-references. And also, just how many original words were translated into the inferior word and perception? Such as has been pointed out many times, the word 'hel/hell' translated from? Is it five? (Whatever happened to my memory!?)
Until we emerge to the other side.. to light instead of darkness - for surely that's what a less than perfect plan of salvation is.. or a less than perfect creation / plan / etc - darkness (and not true).
I think the point here is that the bible is not the thing to be worshipped but the God of the bible is, the living word, the Word made flesh.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!"
Not saying anyone here is doing that, but it fits with what anti-n was saying about looking away from the bible and unto the cross of Christ.
The cross of Jesus is the supreme expression of the I Am, His eternal power and divine nature, but I think we need to look through the Bible to this core thought, which is the Logos of God and the single highest interpretive evidence for reconciling all that is in the scriptures. When we are determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified, as Paul did, priorities and foundations are balanced and set aright to the Chief Cornerstone.
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor 3:11
I dont think people worship the Bible. They worship their own ideas of God and twist the scriptures to fit, prioritizing verses cut out of whole cloth to their preference as the Pharisees did, "You strain at the gnat and swallow the camel"...."You know neither the scriptures or the power of God"...."You know not what spirit you are of".
The true knowledge of God centered in Christ crucified brings the scriptures into proper harmony through the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
"Today if you hear my voice"...."It is written, man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God".
The salvation of all has always been a topic of mine since I came to believe in Jesus. It's the only way I can imagine a real God to look at salvation. The real God would be ages old and above the petty squabbles of mankind. He would himself believe in love and forgiveness and peace. Sometimes I think God is not absolutely omnipotent, because that would imply he could change everything in a second. He needs humans as his friends and he would spread wisdom and faith, hope and love instead. And that's what I find in Jesus. Not that we cannot rely on God if he's not absolutely omnipotent. We can rely on Him. But we cannot demand a million dollar lottery win or that an amputated limp grows back. That's not in it. We can instead desire spiritual riches like patience and compassion and love for each other. When a christian community like I am living in in this group home here decides for consequent agape love, things are a real pleasure. That's why we should decide to have a simple life with friends and family and a church setting. Those who learn from love learn to love everyone and that everyone is a lost or found child of God. That's what my first pastor taught me, and he had even success in healing diseases.
Those who believe God's love is smaller than his sense of meting out punishments for wrongs, they miss out on God completely already. I mean, those who love understand that the Beloved is precious and always worthy of more love. Do not decide for anger, for seeing wrath in God. That's in the bible, but only as an example of what PEOPLE were thinking, not what God actually was thinking. God would sympathize with sufferers and have pity most of all. Mercy triumphs over judgment! Watch a good video on the cross and realize the savior was dying a love and mercy death for others than Him. Someone who sacrifices himself in order to save people must be another guy than someone who lashes out in punishment!
When I am immersed in the crucified Jesus I loose my wretched will to believe in a divine wrath or anger! This is just a thought and belief of religious people to keep others in check. But it doesn't work. The criminal doesn't fear the anger of God, he fears the police.
The sentiment you express is understandable, and I agree with some of what you hav said, but it is carried too far- it goes beyond the scriptures and generalizes a subject too complex for such a blanket approach. The scriptures clearly teach, in the Old Testament and the New, and even in the words of the Lord Jesus Himself, that God can be wrathful under certain circumstances, and that His punishments upon the persistently wicked can be formidable.
It is not just what people think reflected against an image of a totally benign God. God is not totally benign, but He is ultimately benign. His ultimate intention for every soul is reconciliation and redemption, but some souls will experience chastisement at various levels on the way to that destination.
Also, God is definitely all-powerful, and He could change everything in two minutes if He wanted too- but that is not His purpose, and never was. His purpose is to bring mankind into an autonomous harmony with His divine nature, so He has set Himself in a relationship with His creation where each person must eventually capitulate, through learning and experience, to His love.
Yes mercy does triumph over judgment, but if there were no judgment there would be nothing for mercy to triumph over, and no lesson to be learned.
To anti-nietzsche:
As a Special Education teacher, I know that sometimes, I have to let the little toddlers under my care cry and be upset, so I can help them to learn to navigate, not only school, but life, itself. Sometimes their parents get very upset at their crying, and inadvertently undermine what I am trying to do. Sometimes my collegues give the children what they want, rather than what will help to change their behavior because they don't want the parents to complain, or because they don't want to make waves. My first boss called doing what would reap the greater success in their lives, "the greater kindness'.
I believe that is what God does. The greater kindness looks like cruelty, sometimes. But, what is the motive and what is being accomplished
is what is important. Even surgery can seem cruel, but it is much worst to leave someone ill, than to try to heal them.
And, I personally believe that God is omnipotent, and knows all and sees all and can do all. And, I believe He can change everything in a second. But, I also believe often it is the process, that is most important.....the transformation. Probably much more for us, than for Him.
So, those are my thoughts, anti.
May the Holy Spirit guide us all.
D.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 03, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
The salvation of all has always been a topic of mine since I came to believe in Jesus. It's the only way I can imagine a real God to look at salvation. The real God would be ages old and above the petty squabbles of mankind. He would himself believe in love and forgiveness and peace.
Amen! :iagree:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 03, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
Sometimes I think God is not absolutely omnipotent, because that would imply he could change everything in a second.
I think sister D. has a great take on this.. as I think of it too, as, is it better to allow all to learn an all important basic truth (imo, that He is life and perfection, therefor to rationalize or choose other than He chooses is to be imperfect, the opposite of life, thus can never ever work but will aLways result in nonlife.. imo :gsmile: ) Or is it better to somehow program all able to think and reason creatures (man and angel) to never think outside God's will.. would we then have to be forever very small children?? Or He would never create rational creatures..? I think He could change all things in an instant, but it's my belief that He could see all possibilities before ever doing an act of creation, and has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities..
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 03, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
He needs humans as his friends
..and I think as His very own family.. of many beautiful branches.. including the angels..
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 03, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
When a christian community like I am living in in this group home here decides for consequent agape love, things are a real pleasure. That's why we should decide to have a simple life with friends and family and a church setting. Those who learn from love learn to love everyone and that everyone is a lost or found child of God.
Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 03, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
Those who believe God's love is smaller than his sense of meting out punishments for wrongs, they miss out on God completely already. I mean, those who love understand that the Beloved is precious and always worthy of more love. Do not decide for anger, for seeing wrath in God. That's in the bible, but only as an example of what PEOPLE were thinking, not what God actually was thinking. God would sympathize with sufferers and have pity most of all. Mercy triumphs over judgment! Watch a good video on the cross and realize the savior was dying a love and mercy death for others than Him. Someone who sacrifices himself in order to save people must be another guy than someone who lashes out in punishment!
Amen! tho I lean toward thinking of the "wrath of God" as usually simply natural consequences.. (and different from His correction of believers, when needed, should their feet stray to paths of destruction and suffering, etc)
And how He dealt strictly with Israel in order to prepare a place somewhat prepared for Messiah to be born into, etc, rather than in the midst of tree worshippers of something.. And also to describe transgressions.. I do believe, for instance Leviticus 18 as to what is good and right and what isn't, still applies, but in Jesus, all is forgiven, which pardon, forgiveness and reconciliation, of course was all engineered by God. And all, ultimately will be thoroughly reconciled to Him thereby. :HeartThrob:
And also - 1 Peter 3:9 reflects HIS nature - Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing.
yet, Deuteronomy 32:35, Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.'
I didn't look up the context of the Deuteronomy verse, and don't remember it, but I do know there were some really cruel and barbaric practices going on by some very cruel and barbaric characters - like beating the drums of Tophet to drown out the screams of children and babies as they were placed alive in fire as sacrifices to other 'gods' ! ..despots, terrorists, predators cruelly and heartlessly abuse many, what God worth his salt wouldn't be angered by it.. I even believe there will be some bit of vindication on Judgment 'day' for victims.. and remember He witnesses all.. being Life, He experiences it all.. and isn't "wrath" the only language some will understand? And don't we all need to learn that lesson too? What is the sense to letting evil (imperfection) be shown for what it is, if the very lowest of the low, and lowest depravity is prevented and not portrayed? (I believe such is the 'bottomless pit / abyss of Rev chapter 9.. evil, imperfection, having a bottomless abyss of possibility,
so children touch it not! ever! He is writing / engraving, imo, His law of total LOVE on every heart, mind and psyche and what teaches better than experience...
and the Holy Ghost :thumbsup: )
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on July 03, 2017, 05:13:00 PM
When I am immersed in the crucified Jesus I loose my wretched will to believe in a divine wrath or anger! This is just a thought and belief of religious people to keep others in check. But it doesn't work. The criminal doesn't fear the anger of God, he fears the police.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I believe the word "wrath" #G3709 has a wider range than anger.. or wrath - including "impulse and passion" :dontknow: to me, that verse means if I am not reconciled through Jesus, the results and consequences of being sinful (imperfect, "missing the mark, failure") is still upon me.. including death and any and all calamity that may arise through my doings, etc.. and also happenstance or that is, the doings of others.. after all if imperfection is let to run its course, continually interfering would work totally against it.. thus nothing learned, nothing gained..
:Peace2:
God does not "lash out" in anger. If God is angry He takes a patient, forbearing and considered approach in His response to whatever or whomever has incurred His wrath, but there is literally NO WAY to avoid the scriptural fact that God does get angry, and His anger can be fearful. it may not be comfortable for us to accept that this is true, but the scriptures are very clear that it is so, and Jesus also became angry on several occasions- as when He clear the buyers and sellers from His Father's house using a whip. His anger must have been awesome to behold or some of them would have just ganged up and overpowered Him.
If we believe eternal torment in hell is a myth, that does not mean we should go to the other extreme and make a myth of the wrath of God, which is abundantly testified to in scripture.
IMO it causes us, as universalists, to lose credibility.
My belief in UR is based, profoundly upon the scriptures, so I do not want to void the testimony by invalidating the very holy writings upon which my beliefs are founded. The scriptures undergird and testify to the philosophical arguments against eternal torment- not the other way around.
I would say Sodom and Gomorrah is one example of God's anger, and His punishment, as was Lot's wife turning to a pillar of stone- there are so many to choose from actually.
If we fail to deal with the issue of evil and God's attitude and willingness to act against the persistent pursuit of predatory oppression, we do not understand why we bear witness and warn the evil man to depart from his ways, why God destroyed the "world that was" with water, and why this present evil age abides under death and the wrath of God until the kingdom of God has subjected all the adversaries. If we do not accept God's definitions of evil.... it is because WE are deceived- not because the scriptures are in error or to be taken lightly in view our enlightened philosophy and Sesame Street religion.
Along with the blessed good news that all of God's counsels end in mercy, if we refuse to stand with Him for the judgment that will occur for many along the way to that destination, we are sliding down the slippery slope by which Unitarian Universalism emerged from what was once a vibrant, biblically based community of universalists who understood that Jesus is Lord. I, for one, have no inclination to co-operate with that influence. :2c: :2c:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.......They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Romans 1
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality......Romans 2
Just to comment on the righteous judgement of God and how we are to deal with it. We do not judge people. We do testify to the righteousness of God revealed in Jesus Christ, the ultimate testimony of mercy. That righteousness forgives all for all, but not without accountability for their words, attitudes and actions, so we also testify that God will judge, in His various ways, to bring all adversaries to their knees so that they may receive mercy before the throne of grace. As Jude testified...
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever(to the age).....
It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him....
But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh."