My response to the bad speculations of christians about animals.

[DanielB]

Something that I find disturbing is that when it comes to animals, I see very pessimistic and incredibly harmful speculation when it comes to various things about them. It is my belief that we should always be optimistic about God and his will(and his love and compassion). When I say it disturbs me, I do not mean to say that I condemn anyone(certainly not when I am of sound mind) or in any condescending way but out of concern for others(both the humans and the animals). I have speculated in most of the negative ways here myself so you can be sure that I am against the misguided philosophies and not any of you who have fallen for them as I have. Here is my response to some speculation that does harm people(their hopes and their hearts) and animals(their bodies and their hearts).

"Animals are not conscious beings."
This speculation does not say anything good or bad about God but I warn against the ivory tower philosopher's nonsense that leads to all kinds of evil. The same has been said about human fetuses and other people and this has led to great harm. I personally am unsure of whether people are conscious or sentient when they are still fetuses but it seems too risky and irresponsible to wager that they are not(nor does the whole abortion debate hang upon whether they are sentient but let's not debate abortion here, especially because I probably already agree with you on it). I think that considering that animals blatantly appear to be conscious beings(to any with even moderate experience with them) and the horrible consequences of being mistaken in this, we should assume that animals are conscious beings until proven otherwise(rather than assuming they are not conscious beings). The Bible also speaks of regard to animals which seems kind of silly to me if they are not living beings any more than rocks or even blades of grass. It also seems to me that God made us where we can empathize with animals, where we are distressed(to varying levels) upon hearing them screech in pain or how it can be pleasing to see happy animals but why would God make them so easy to empathize with if the are not living beings. Surely God would have known that we would waste our time, energy, and resources caring for animals and made their lifeless signals/communication sound like robotic beeping or something(but we do not waste our time on them because they are more than objects or machines).

"Animals don't feel pain or don't suffer."
Again, that is a dangerous and irresponsible wager. Consider the costs if you are wrong. Also, prove it.

"Animals don't have spirits/souls."(Any biblical distinction between "soul" and "spirit" seems is irrelevant here but this applies to either anyway.)

First of all, show me in the Bible where it says this rather than merely repeating it because you have heard it from others(I don't say this to be harsh but I think this is the case). I have not read the whole Bible yet but I have not seen any scripture to back up such an assertion/speculation. We should get our information about spiritual things or souls from the Bible or at least not speculation or some old/ancient philosophers, traditions, etc. The best I have seen in defense of that claim... says that humans are the same in this. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+3%3A18-21&version=NIV

"Animals will not live forever because they are not saved."
Hopefully we all know better by knowing(insofar as we believe animals are living beings which I have hopefully shown to be the most reasonable position) that God is more loving than the most compassionate one of us and he will do whatever it takes to save all his creatures rather than abandoning them to death and mortality(which are his enemies) or worse! Unthinkable! Besides, what Jesus has already did is sufficient for them if they needed any sort of atonement to begin with and if it somehow wasn't, I have no doubt that he would do it all again a thousand times for the sake of one rat! As I said, he is far more loving than I am.









Now let me be blunt, I think those of us who think in these ways or have thought in these ways(including me), think/thought these things because they are more convenient for us since they allow us to by tyrants to animals in all sorts of ways and to have no regard for their dignity as other beloved living creations of God except when it is convenient(like pets). In the end, this only undermines ourselves and represses ourselves(because we are made to love and value life which includes humans and animals). Especially when we are hypocrites about it and get angry at people leaving their dogs in dangerously hot cars or neglecting them when the animals that they eat every day have been through far worse. For those of you who are not aware of the demonic stuff that goes on in modern farms and slaughterhouses(I call it demonic because I don't think humans have come up with something so profane on our own), I recommend that you watch "Earthlings". Disclaimer: I do not anthropomorphize animals and I do distinguish between humans and animals so I do not agree with all of what is said by the narrator but I think the rest speaks for itself. Also, I don't think all such places are probably as bad as shown but if even 5% of them are(which is a very optimistic and baseless estimation), it is far too much and none are without suffering even IF they are not AS bad. (Here is a link to it on Youtube that skips the weird intro and gets right to the stuff that goes on in these places) https://youtu.be/pbzQC6cbCZ4?t=17m50s

I don't think anyone who has not been totally taken over by evil, wants to abuse animals so I do not condescend and only bring these things up to those who agree it is wrong to abuse animals and to encourage people who already agree at heart but have fallen for ivory tower philosophies or other lies as I have.

[eaglesway]

A little bit generalized and stereotyped, I think. Just because someone does not believe animals will be resurrected doesnt mean they approve cruelty to animals. Also, I do not know anyone who believes animals do not suffer- this is just not a common, widespread view as far as I am concerned.

I do not believe animals will be resurrected, but I would not mind if I find out differently on the Day. Where will it end. Mice? Chipmunks? Rats? - Just kidding.....

It is clear to me  that animals are conscious, it is not clear if or when in the animal kingdom consciousness includes intelligence rather than instinct. Some of the higher mammals sure seem conscious and inteligent to me, like horses, porpoises, dogs, apes and monkeys.

We just have to be careful ascribing general values to large groups of people that may not, in fact, be so. The negative propaganda about Christians in general is easy to believe and repeat, but not always true.

As stewards of earth the children of God will be judged on the compassionate exercize of that stewardship, after all, "the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God" (Rom 8) :o)

[DanielB]

"A little bit generalized and stereotyped, I think. Just because someone does not believe animals will be resurrected doesn't mean they approve cruelty to animals."
What gave you the impression I was saying that? I have seen atheists who don't believe in any resurrection who are vegans(because they care about animals rather than health) so I don't see why any christian couldn't. I also think it is rare(hopefully) for people to approve directly of cruelty to animals but people. Also, I recall hearing about some well known french guy(a philosopher or something) that was a vivisectionist or approved of it but he did not approve of cruelty to animals because he thought they were just philosophical zombies or did not possess a mind(you can't be cruel to a computer unless you mistake it for a person). Thankfully, that is a rare view now at least. I only speak on these things to people who I assume ARE against cruelty but might not have thought it through or got caught up in bad philosophy.

"Also, I do not know anyone who believes animals do not suffer- this is just not a common, widespread view as far as I am concerned."
It is a rare view to believe with confidence that no animals suffer but many people make exceptions or think that some do and some don't or that. I certainly was on the fence about many animals(and still am as far as bugs and some reptiles are concerned). I don't have a problem with people being on the fence about whether any animals suffer but I think we should treat them as if they do just to be safe and they certainly seem to so I just make the leap of faith and say they do. You probably know more people than you think who hold some of these views. It isn't a subject that gets discussed a lot until a vegetarian or vegan comes along. ;)

"It is clear to me  that animals are conscious, it is not clear if or when in the animal kingdom consciousness includes intelligence rather than instinct. Some of the higher mammals sure seem conscious and intelligent to me, like horses, porpoises, dogs, apes and monkeys."
I question a lot of the stuff that supposedly qualifies or disqualifies someone of being a living being that is worthy of regard(care). Some people use the "mirror test" to determine whether an animal is a living being or should have very basic rights(like not to have pain inflicted on them needlessly) and a few species like some apes and birds can pass it... but human babies often can't pass the mirror test despite clearly being conscious beings(I am sure we can all agree that babies have dignity). People often seem to conflate self awareness or the ability to philosophise as being a prerequisite of  being truly alive and truly having worth but I don't buy it. I am not assuming you or anyone here hold such views(I am sure there are other ways of approaching it). Ultimately, I am most concerned about whether animals can suffer rather than whether they contemplate the meaning of life or something. lol I see no reason to think that animals do not suffer just as we do. The only reason animals MAY suffer slightly less is because I doubt they torment themselves with overthinking things like pain like "Why me?" but I think they can still suffer every bit as much as us.


"We just have to be careful ascribing general values to large groups of people that may not, in fact, be so. The negative propaganda about Christians in general is easy to believe and repeat, but not always true."
Well, I certainly don't think all christians think in such a way but unfortunately I have witnessed many christians coming up with even worse than that and being a stumbling block to non-christians. I know better than to assume all christians are such a way because I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt(even when a person is using a foolish and unchristian argument), because I am a christian myself and my worldview reflects that(even if my actions do not always), and because I have known many christians who do.

But I have seen many christians whether nominal christians(I don't like to assume though) or more religious types(which I mean with no negative modern connotation) using the Bible to defend the torment of animals that does take place in farms and slaughterhouses. I have even seen some using unchristian ideas like pointing out the fact that we have power over animals as a justification (when Jesus shows us the way to use whatever power and advantage we have and Paul tells us to be kind to those under our authority or power because we are under God's authority and power). A lot of vegans and vegetarians are opposed to christianity because many of us give them the impression we follow an evil, cruel, tyrannical, unloving god. When a vegan/vegetarian who believes that animals are precious living beings, speaks to a christian on this or even shows how animals are being abused, unfortunately common responses are that God created animals for human consumption(which is unbiblical since they were made for Adam for some of the same reasons Eve was and God merely permits people to eat animals after the flood), that we have "dominion" over animals(which in the context of such discussions, seems to be conflated on both sides of the fence with the right to be tyrants), and so on. I try to at least briefly represent christianity and Jesus to many vegans who have been given a false and unbiblical idea of christianity and God(since many christians do not know how speak to them and end up making God look like the hyper calvinist "understanding" of God as if he does not have enough room in his heart for anyone but the elect/humans). I tell them "Christianity is not opposed to veganism, I decided to go vegan because of my beliefs!"(and I talk about how people and animals were originally meant to and destined to only eat plants or be vegetarian at the very least, how Jesus does the opposite of abusing his power over us and is our role model in this,  and so on).


I am not divisive in this(hopefully I don't come across this way) but I think many people are under some sort of extrinsic evil influence(like demons or something) and fatalism. One may see why I think demons are involved if they watch some of the documentary I linked. Not only do I suspect they or some other tyrannical force are involved in the cruelty but I think they must also be involved in the fatalism people feel when they eat or do something that is against their conscience. I am not super optimistic about what many people would call "human nature" but I see that many people are conflicted or blind(in the case of cruelty). I don't see other people as the enemy, I see the harmful philosophies or maybe demons or something as being responsible. That doesn't mean that I take it as far as denying all responsibility of people for their own actions or blame everything on demons but I am against evil influences whatever they may be, rather than people I speak to and about.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I love animals. The creation is groaning and travailing, and I believe that includes them. I also believe they will be redeemed from the death sin brought to all of this realm. What that entails exactly, I don't know. Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

All dogs go to heaven.
Cats to purgatory.
Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.
:Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I love animals too, and all of the wonder and beauty of creation. Most of the heartless experiments humans do upon animals are motivated by humanistic science. I think people will never "see" or "not see" Jesus over these issues. They need to see Him for Who He Is, and of course, eventually they all will, as the whole creation, presently in the pangs of childbirth, is set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." Rev 11;18

[jabcat]

Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.

+ mosquitos

[marie glen]

Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.

+ mosquitos

Amen to thAt!!  :laugh2:


.....I was thinking about this very thing just yesterday.. Always having had a question about it and not knowing the answer - because all animals that have lived will be very many. I was looking at the sky and the thought came to me that our heavenly Father has no shortage of space.. a sort of "dAh.." moment..  :doh:

[lonelysummer]

All dogs go to heaven.
Cats to purgatory.
Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.
:Peace2:

I beg to differ. Some of the best friends, companions, soul mates I've had in this mortal realm have been cats. My cat spent several minutes today affectionately licking my face - I admit, it kind of tickled, but I just tried to enjoy her love for me.

[Cardinal]

All dogs go to heaven.
Cats to purgatory.
Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.
:Peace2:

I beg to differ. Some of the best friends, companions, soul mates I've had in this mortal realm have been cats. My cat spent several minutes today affectionately licking my face - I admit, it kind of tickled, but I just tried to enjoy her love for me.

Me, too. They've got to be some of the smartest and most loving creatures on the planet. I read somewhere that cats began in trees, but they came down because they liked us.

[WhiteWings]

Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.

+ mosquitos

Amen to thAt!!  :laugh2:


.....I was thinking about this very thing just yesterday.. Always having had a question about it and not knowing the answer - because all animals that have lived will be very many. I was looking at the sky and the thought came to me that our heavenly Father has no shortage of space.. a sort of "dAh.." moment..  :doh:

But that's assuming what you see is all there is.
Gen 1 (what you see) is about creation of what you see.
It doesn't state anything about the age and size of the unseen.
Perhaps what we see can be compared as a drop of water and an ocean.....

[WhiteWings]

Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.

+ mosquitos

http://home.remedydaily.com/2017/04/08/the-one-vitamin-that-helps-repel-mosquitoes-all-summer-long/?src=fbfan_59415&t=fbsub_remedydailycom

http://usefultipsforhome.com/outdoor/1-simple-tip-keep-ticks-off-summer-long/?utm_source=shrd


http://usefultipsforhome.com/house-pests/simple-papertowel-trick-eliminates-fruit-flies-gnats-good/

[Lazarus Short]

Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.  :banana:

[DanielB]

My favorite trick for preventing tick bites is to have hairy legs(don't wear long socks?). They pretty much never get past all my tripwires.  :bigGrin: I wonder if there is just a way to make mosquito bites less uncomfortable(by making your body not go so crazy over them). It is probably influenced by diet.

I have plenty of blood to spare but they are always scoundrels about it and spit stuff into me. In the resurrection or in one of the following ages we won't mind mosquitoes because they will no longer be such degenerates about it and they will just take some blood and leave rather than than injecting you with stuff and we'll just be like "There you go little buddy!  :HeartThrob: "  :winkgrin:

In all seriousness, they may no longer leave the anticoagulant in you(which is what causes the reaction in/on your body), your body may just handle it in a comfortable way, or they me not even suck blood anymore. I don't know the context because I haven't gotten to Isaiah yet, but I have heard that even lions will no longer be predators and that they will eat straw(and or other plants I assume) at some point in the future(along with children peacefully playing with snakes, etc). Obviously our perceptions(and often rightly acquired prejudices) of previously dangerous or "ugly" animals will change. I don't know if any species will not be resurrected or made practically immortal(be sustained by God forever). There could be some really simple organisms(like mites) that may be organic machines(no sentience/consciousness) that will just "die" off or be destroyed when their purpose has been fulfilled or they may be restored/redeemed somehow, which I think is a logical certainty and something we can trust God to do for all living creatures since God is all about life, valuing others, and so on rather than loving death or seeing living beings as worthless(God is good enough to love all beings regardless of whether they are made in his image).

That is speculative though. We know(or should know!) that God is more loving and values life more than we can currently value anything but we can speculate on what is alive(I am assuming that only things that have the "breath of life" are living beings but I don't know if bugs fall into that category). Bugs are too alien to empathize with so it not apparent whether they are living beings(unlike mammals which are obviously living beings if we don't get into bad philosophical speculation like solipsist stuff and I assume many reptiles, etc).

[jugghead]

Bugs are just the physical manifestation of all the different understandings of the truth ..... those that have the truth, the rest of the "different understandings" bug (or annoy) us.

But that goes without saying because it also works in reverse, to ET'ers.. UR is a bug that sucks the life (blood) out of their understanding

[eaglesway]

Light is fire to darkness, consuming all those bugs. Altho bugs may swarm, they can never overwhelm the fire, and will become smoke from the furnace of His love :o)

[jugghead]

Light is fire to darkness, consuming all those bugs. Altho bugs may swarm, they can never overwhelm the fire, and will become smoke from the furnace of His love :o)

Amen EW  :iagree:

[lonelysummer]

All dogs go to heaven.
Cats to purgatory.
Bed bugs, fleas and gnats to hell.
:Peace2:

I beg to differ. Some of the best friends, companions, soul mates I've had in this mortal realm have been cats. My cat spent several minutes today affectionately licking my face - I admit, it kind of tickled, but I just tried to enjoy her love for me.

I love this
Me, too. They've got to be some of the smartest and most loving creatures on the planet. I read somewhere that cats began in trees, but they came down because they liked us.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I have Siamese and Himalayan cats. I have 2 mothers right now with kittens, the last mother only had 2 kittens day before yesterday, the first mother had 6 kittens, 3 weeks ago.

I am having a battle right now with the one that had 2, because she is "super mom" and wants ALL the kittens in her box, and she keeps putting them all together in the other mother's box, which is not going over particularly well with mother number 1, lol.

The funny thing is, mother number 1 doesn't fight with her about it, she runs to me to "complain" and then runs to her box wanting me to follow her and see the problem for myself and "fix" it for her.

The "dad" is even involved, because when he hears the kittens raising the roof over being moved, he hits the panic button and runs to "complain" to me, too, and then runs to the move in progress. They are a hoot, and you can't tell me they are not smart. He takes turn sleeping on top of each of the boxes at night, like he's standing guard.

I got the male first and had him for over a year before I got the others given to me. When I was hospitalized for over a week, a friend and her husband came in daily to take care of them for me.

Her husband was sitting at the snack bar, and said he heard the male make this awful noise and said to his wife, "WHAT on earth is that???" She told him it was my tom crying and going from room to room, looking for me.

He said, "I swear to God, it sounded just like that cat said, "Mom"! She said, "I know, I've heard him before." Believe it or not, and my friend's daughter has a cat that does the same thing, it sounds like he says "mom". I think mine picked it up from hearing my kids call for me.

And dog lovers (I have them outside, too) wonder what makes a person a cat lover. PERSONALITY, lol....Blessings...

[Shev]

There is one creature so devout, it must surely be first in line above all others...

The Praying Mantis.

:winkgrin:

[Seth]

 :laughing7:

[DanielB]

Gorillas and pigs will get in before those types. Luke 18:10-14  :winkgrin:

[Dandelion]

I do believe that God will draw all of His creation back to Himself.

Animals serve many purposes here on earth. They are a gift from God.

And, I believe He loves them, too.

D.

[Cardinal]

There is one creature so devout, it must surely be first in line above all others...

The Praying Mantis.

:winkgrin:

LOL....I used to mess with them when I was a kid. I had a HUGE one in my garden a few years ago, about 6 inches from head to tail, I bet. They're great for keeping the bug population down. Some people buy them in cocoons for that reason. Peace