...who have no hope

[jabcat]

How would you answer this, how do you understand it;  a verse that could be used as proof by those who believe in ET or annihilation?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

[Cristina100]

For no one is cast off by the lord forever.though he brings grief,he will show compassion so great is his unfailing love. lamentation 3:31-33

[sheila]

JC...the way I read it..is those who don't believe in the resurrection[I AM THE RESURRECTION]have no hope in

anything other than this life.,and therefore they are uninformed...grieve excessively..because of their unbelief.

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

..i almost started a post yesterday about the word "hope" - how a closer translation is "expectation" (imo?)

Romans 5:2 - Amplified Bible (the Classic )

2 Through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God's favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.

hope - #1680 - "hope, expectation, trust, confidence, to anticipate" - [[our expectation of experiencing and witnessing the Glory of God!!]]

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no expectaion/confidence/anticipation."

..no hope/expectation of resurrection and the ultimate reunion with loved ones..
:Peace2: :thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

I think of the pagan Greeks who had no expectation but to exist as shadows in Hades - no hope for something better.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :smile:

[rosered]

How would you answer this, how do you understand it;  a verse that could be used as proof by those who believe in ET or annihilation?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

I have  thought  about this many times   over the years and Thank God  for the Holy Spirits quickening[Spirit of Truth ]  to  HIS  WORD working in and though us all ...

Them Words become  Life to us   whom  HOPE IS IN JESUS CHRIST ...  and  HIS GRACE POURED OUT ON ALL FLESH ...


to know and understand it , both  are  helping is to all grow in Truth and grace .
  There are two  laws  that   are working in our members [body]       the law of  sin and  death[old Adam male spirit/female soul =[body of death  many members ] and the law of Christ Life  male Spirit and soul  female [ Woman, church   that comes out of Christ  body as  many membered    working  within us ...
As we judge so shall we be judged by the WORD  that is working within us  , this two edged SWORD/WORD   is described most  clearly in Hebrews 4 
  as   the book of Hebrews is    this'' new covenant'' agreement  totally explained in details and many answers that  comfort   us if  we can just believe without   inner  conflict   the warring of both laws and the dividing of the soul and Spirit ..
Because Life and death are ours and so is all things  ours to experience  them powerful truths and its results .

JESUS COME TO HEAL  US   , this is the  coming together   of the soul and Spirit  within , the mortal  body    of death  and  also within the  Body of Christ which is  Spiritual Life [this BODY never ever dies]

The  Word teaches us pretty plain   that to be in the world but not of it   , to me this is when   all the confusion  comes  between these two laws  and two realms of thoughts        this warring  of the ABOVE [WISDOM ]     and below [wisdom ] and discerning spiritually  just what it really means and applies to 

JESUS CHRIST come    to show us how to overcome the world [death]all that is in it is vanity and pride of life a temporary dwelling ,   not only  showed us ,but left the seed/posterity  to grow in truth and grace  within us  because His death   , made the new covenant effective    immediately    by tasting death for every man  , now we can taste  LIFE to some degree nowthough the LIFE OF JESUS CHRIST WHOM NEVER DIES  !! HE WAS IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE .........

    :HeartThrob:

I do thank God for simplifying  this  to so many of us   and accept it as Gods will      ..

i love  how it is explained in the Word   that  when we sin it is against our body   , this was a major clue to me   , seeing the body of death Paul was speaking about   in Romans  the that whole book of many chapters
and to know nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified   as leaving death behind him and cling to Jesus and the BODY OF LIFE .. 

[Patinak]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

I see this verse as a strong confirmation of U.R. rather than a proof for ET (OP):

I think Paul was comforting the congregation by explaining that their loved ones who had died (prior to Jesus coming to Earth) were recipients of the same benefit of Jesus (resurrection to life) that they were. Even though they had already passed away, the blood of Jesus covered them also. We have the same hope (marie glen definition) for all.  I find it very comforting, I no longer "grieve" because of that hope.

Just another way to put what everyone else is saying. :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from  friends and family.

[jabcat]

lots of good answers folks..expands the view rather than tunnel vision.. :thumbsup:  thanks, more to think about.

[Patinak]

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from  friends and family.

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 RSV]

I guess that anyone can find a translation that supports their viewpoint, I must admit that I am guilty of this, but this is how I choose to see this one (and hope that it is because of God's guidance).  A comma here, a period there, a transposition of a couple of words in a sentence, and the whole meaning changes.  From my understanding, punctuation in the ancient Greek texts was pretty much non-existent, leaving lots of room for interpretation during translation.

Blessings all!

[rosered]

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from  friends and family.

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 RSV]

I guess that anyone can find a translation that supports their viewpoint, I must admit that I am guilty of this, but this is how I choose to see this one (and hope that it is because of God's guidance).  A comma here, a period there, a transposition of a couple of words in a sentence, and the whole meaning changes.  From my understanding, punctuation in the ancient Greek texts was pretty much non-existent, leaving lots of room for interpretation during translation.

Blessings all!

  :thumbsup:
 
I too  see this as  Jesus giving us the ''open show ''   How death   nor this temporary dwelling had no power over Him  , defeating death ''openly ''   in the'' fullness of time ''  or the completeness of deaths hold on mankinds thinking ,When you actually believe Jesus   now being the Lord /MASTER over  the dead and living

that if you die/dormant  you shall Live and those  alive/spirit moving walking , breathing   will never die ...    this is the one of the most profound truths   in the WORD  we can trust and  share as  I believe !!!!   and get that Martha mentality out of your head  !   

  john 11

24Martha replied, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.

He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

  We have this LIVING WORD &SPIRIT  COMING FORTH ....OUT OF the law of sin/error and  DEATH   ,  as a  Lazarus  witness , Whom God helps  : God is my help   into the Law of Life and Liberty    FREEDOM= the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved  by sin and death any longer   , Just as Paul  proclaimed   LOVE IS THE GREATEST   of the  3 , being  faith , hope and LOVE  completes us .:HeartThrob:

[Patinak]

that if you die/dormant  you shall Live and those  alive/spirit moving walking , breathing   will never die ...    this is the one of the most profound truths   in the WORD  we can trust and  share as  I believe !!!!   and get that Martha mentality out of your head  !   

 

Great, just great rosered!

[Dandelion]

that if you die/dormant  you shall Live and those  alive/spirit moving walking , breathing   will never die ...    this is the one of the most profound truths   in the WORD  we can trust and  share as  I believe !!!!   and get that Martha mentality out of your head  !   

 

Great, just great rosered!

You, go Rose! Beautiful!             :Gclap:

D.

[eaglesway]

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from  friends and family.

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 RSV]

I guess that anyone can find a translation that supports their viewpoint, I must admit that I am guilty of this, but this is how I choose to see this one (and hope that it is because of God's guidance).  A comma here, a period there, a transposition of a couple of words in a sentence, and the whole meaning changes.  From my understanding, punctuation in the ancient Greek texts was pretty much non-existent, leaving lots of room for interpretation during translation.

Blessings all!

Thats the beautiful thing about context, and the reason why context is as important as translation. While anyone can change a period here or  a comma there, it is not so easy to cut out the sentences surrounding the verse in question. The context within which a particular verse is set says more about its interpretation than any one persons perspective on punctuation. Then there is the larger context of all that is written about the topic, making it possible to discern what is being revealed by the words written. Taken out of context, cut out of whole cloth- anything can mean anything.

[Patinak]

Yes, a lot of doctrine and literature (Left Behind, rapture) have come out of these few verses.  However, I still see the same idea within the whole context.  To me these verses are more about Paul's emphasis on not grieving as unbelievers do concerning those already passed.  :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Amen. And we, who understand that this hope applies not only to those believe, but to all who have ever lived or ever will, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory :o)

[Patinak]

Amen. Yes we are blessed indeed!

[joeteekay]

Death is an enemy. Most people who have a 'heart' , do sorrow when someone they know and love dies. It is natural. Jesus showed sorrow on occasion, but that did not obviate hope for Him and not for us as well. When one gets the big picture, beyond sorrow, there is hope and finally joy. I have found that people who understand UR sorrow at a funeral, but it is not the sorrow of the world. They see beyond that to the joy of the consummation when God becomes All in All.

Rev_21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[eaglesway]

Yes, amen!

I also think that our sorrow is due to the breaking of a connection of love, because we are all so much more connected than we realize. Knowing that every connection will one day be restored and fulfilled just blesses my socks off LOL.

[darryl]

JC...the way I read it..is those who don't believe in the resurrection[I AM THE RESURRECTION]have no hope in

anything other than this life.,and therefore they are uninformed...grieve excessively..because of their unbelief.

well said ! ..I think that's pretty obviously what it means too  :iagree:

[darryl]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

I see this verse as a strong confirmation of U.R. rather than a proof for ET (OP):

I think Paul was comforting the congregation by explaining that their loved ones who had died (prior to Jesus coming to Earth) were recipients of the same benefit of Jesus (resurrection to life) that they were. Even though they had already passed away, the blood of Jesus covered them also. We have the same hope (marie glen definition) for all.  I find it very comforting, I no longer "grieve" because of that hope.

Just another way to put what everyone else is saying. :HeartThrob:

yes, yet another verse supporting UR. Well done !. :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Yes, a lot of doctrine and literature (Left Behind, rapture) have come out of these few verses.  However, I still see the same idea within the whole context.  To me these verses are more about Paul's emphasis on not grieving as unbelievers do concerning those already passed.  :Peace2:

I believe this also. I see it as saying "not to sorry about those who have died like some do because they who sorrow don't have the hope that Jesus will resurrect them".

CHB

[eaglesway]

Amen. Thats the thing I love about the salvation of all. It sets us free from so many bondages, regardless of the details, we know that God will be all in all. :o)