How would you answer this, how do you understand it; a verse that could be used as proof by those who believe in ET or annihilation?
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
For no one is cast off by the lord forever.though he brings grief,he will show compassion so great is his unfailing love. lamentation 3:31-33
JC...the way I read it..is those who don't believe in the resurrection[I AM THE RESURRECTION]have no hope in
anything other than this life.,and therefore they are uninformed...grieve excessively..because of their unbelief.
Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
..i almost started a post yesterday about the word "hope" - how a closer translation is "expectation" (imo?)
Romans 5:2 - Amplified Bible (the Classic )
2 Through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God's favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.
hope - #1680 - "hope, expectation, trust, confidence, to anticipate" - [[our expectation of experiencing and witnessing the Glory of God!!]]
"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no expectaion/confidence/anticipation."
..no hope/expectation of resurrection and the ultimate reunion with loved ones..
:Peace2: :thumbsup:
I think of the pagan Greeks who had no expectation but to exist as shadows in Hades - no hope for something better.
:thumbsup: :smile:
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2017, 09:48:30 AM
How would you answer this, how do you understand it; a verse that could be used as proof by those who believe in ET or annihilation?
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
I have thought about this many times over the years and Thank God for the Holy Spirits quickening[Spirit of Truth ] to HIS WORD working in and though us all ...
Them Words become Life to us whom HOPE IS IN JESUS CHRIST ... and HIS GRACE POURED OUT ON ALL FLESH ...
to know and understand it , both are helping is to all grow in Truth and grace .
There are two laws that are working in our members [body] the law of sin and death[old Adam male spirit/female soul =[body of death many members ] and the law of Christ Life male Spirit and soul female [ Woman, church that comes out of Christ body as many membered working within us ...
As we judge so shall we be judged by the WORD that is working within us , this two edged SWORD/WORD is described most clearly in Hebrews 4
as the book of Hebrews is this'' new covenant'' agreement totally explained in details and many answers that comfort us if we can just believe without inner conflict the warring of both laws and the dividing of the soul and Spirit ..
Because Life and death are ours and so is all things ours to experience them powerful truths and its results .
JESUS COME TO HEAL US , this is the coming together of the soul and Spirit within , the mortal body of death and also within the Body of Christ which is Spiritual Life [this BODY never ever dies]
The Word teaches us pretty plain that to be in the world but not of it , to me this is when all the confusion comes between these two laws and two realms of thoughts this warring of the ABOVE [WISDOM ] and below [wisdom ] and discerning spiritually just what it really means and applies to
JESUS CHRIST come to show us how to overcome the world [death]all that is in it is vanity and pride of life a temporary dwelling , not only showed us ,but left the seed/posterity to grow in truth and grace within us because His death , made the new covenant effective immediately by tasting death for every man , now we can taste LIFE to some degree nowthough the LIFE OF JESUS CHRIST WHOM NEVER DIES !! HE WAS IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE .........
:HeartThrob:
I do thank God for simplifying this to so many of us and accept it as Gods will ..
i love how it is explained in the Word that when we sin it is against our body , this was a major clue to me , seeing the body of death Paul was speaking about in Romans the that whole book of many chapters
and to know nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified as leaving death behind him and cling to Jesus and the BODY OF LIFE ..
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
I see this verse as a strong confirmation of U.R. rather than a proof for ET (OP):
I think Paul was comforting the congregation by explaining that their loved ones who had died (prior to Jesus coming to Earth) were recipients of the same benefit of Jesus (resurrection to life) that they were. Even though they had already passed away, the blood of Jesus covered them also. We have the same hope (marie glen definition) for all. I find it very comforting, I no longer "grieve" because of that hope.
Just another way to put what everyone else is saying. :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from friends and family.
lots of good answers folks..expands the view rather than tunnel vision.. :thumbsup: thanks, more to think about.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2017, 08:50:35 PM
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from friends and family.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 RSV]
I guess that anyone can find a translation that supports their viewpoint, I must admit that I am guilty of this, but this is how I choose to see this one (and hope that it is because of God's guidance). A comma here, a period there, a transposition of a couple of words in a sentence, and the whole meaning changes. From my understanding, punctuation in the ancient Greek texts was pretty much non-existent, leaving lots of room for interpretation during translation.
Blessings all!
Quote from: Patinak on February 16, 2017, 09:23:16 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2017, 08:50:35 PM
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from friends and family.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 RSV]
I guess that anyone can find a translation that supports their viewpoint, I must admit that I am guilty of this, but this is how I choose to see this one (and hope that it is because of God's guidance). A comma here, a period there, a transposition of a couple of words in a sentence, and the whole meaning changes. From my understanding, punctuation in the ancient Greek texts was pretty much non-existent, leaving lots of room for interpretation during translation.
Blessings all!
:thumbsup:
I too see this as Jesus giving us the ''open show '' How death nor this temporary dwelling had no power over Him , defeating death ''openly '' in the'' fullness of time '' or the completeness of deaths hold on mankinds thinking ,When you actually believe Jesus now being the Lord /MASTER over the dead and living
that if you die/dormant you shall Live and those alive/spirit moving walking , breathing will never die ... this is the one of the most profound truths in the WORD we can trust and share as I believe !!!! and get that Martha mentality out of your head !
john 11
24Martha replied, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
We have this LIVING WORD &SPIRIT COMING FORTH ....OUT OF the law of sin/error and DEATH , as a Lazarus witness , Whom God helps : God is my help into the Law of Life and Liberty FREEDOM= the state of not being imprisoned or enslaved by sin and death any longer , Just as Paul proclaimed LOVE IS THE GREATEST of the 3 , being faith , hope and LOVE completes us .:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on February 16, 2017, 01:11:28 PM
that if you die/dormant you shall Live and those alive/spirit moving walking , breathing will never die ... this is the one of the most profound truths in the WORD we can trust and share as I believe !!!! and get that Martha mentality out of your head !
Great, just great rosered!
Quote from: Patinak on February 16, 2017, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on February 16, 2017, 01:11:28 PM
that if you die/dormant you shall Live and those alive/spirit moving walking , breathing will never die ... this is the one of the most profound truths in the WORD we can trust and share as I believe !!!! and get that Martha mentality out of your head !
Great, just great rosered!
You, go Rose! Beautiful! :Gclap:
D.
Quote from: Patinak on February 16, 2017, 09:23:16 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2017, 08:50:35 PM
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Paul uses the qualification, "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus".... so for me, these verses viewed in context are speaking of believers who die in the Lord and will be raised the first resurrection. This in no way diminishes the hope, "For as in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"- but each in his own order- I am hesitant to make every scripture about the salvation of all, because the ETr can see that the context is not, in specific, a proof verse for UR, so I dont want to put it forth as one. Neiither is it any kind of proof verse for ET or annihilation. IMO it is a statement about the resurrection of believers at the coming of the Lord, and our joyful renunion- remembering that many believers were taken away by martyrdom in the time of Paul's writings, as well as all the normal ways by which death separates us from friends and family.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 RSV]
I guess that anyone can find a translation that supports their viewpoint, I must admit that I am guilty of this, but this is how I choose to see this one (and hope that it is because of God's guidance). A comma here, a period there, a transposition of a couple of words in a sentence, and the whole meaning changes. From my understanding, punctuation in the ancient Greek texts was pretty much non-existent, leaving lots of room for interpretation during translation.
Blessings all!
Thats the beautiful thing about context, and the reason why context is as important as translation. While anyone can change a period here or a comma there, it is not so easy to cut out the sentences surrounding the verse in question. The context within which a particular verse is set says more about its interpretation than any one persons perspective on punctuation. Then there is the larger context of all that is written about the topic, making it possible to discern what is being revealed by the words written. Taken out of context, cut out of whole cloth- anything can mean anything.
Yes, a lot of doctrine and literature (Left Behind, rapture) have come out of these few verses. However, I still see the same idea within the whole context. To me these verses are more about Paul's emphasis on not grieving as unbelievers do concerning those already passed. :Peace2:
Amen. And we, who understand that this hope applies not only to those believe, but to all who have ever lived or ever will, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory :o)
Amen. Yes we are blessed indeed!
Death is an enemy. Most people who have a 'heart' , do sorrow when someone they know and love dies. It is natural. Jesus showed sorrow on occasion, but that did not obviate hope for Him and not for us as well. When one gets the big picture, beyond sorrow, there is hope and finally joy. I have found that people who understand UR sorrow at a funeral, but it is not the sorrow of the world. They see beyond that to the joy of the consummation when God becomes All in All.
Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Yes, amen!
I also think that our sorrow is due to the breaking of a connection of love, because we are all so much more connected than we realize. Knowing that every connection will one day be restored and fulfilled just blesses my socks off LOL.
Quote from: sheila on February 14, 2017, 03:32:45 PM
JC...the way I read it..is those who don't believe in the resurrection[I AM THE RESURRECTION]have no hope in
anything other than this life.,and therefore they are uninformed...grieve excessively..because of their unbelief.
well said ! ..I think that's pretty obviously what it means too :iagree:
Quote from: Patinak on February 14, 2017, 06:52:06 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
I see this verse as a strong confirmation of U.R. rather than a proof for ET (OP):
I think Paul was comforting the congregation by explaining that their loved ones who had died (prior to Jesus coming to Earth) were recipients of the same benefit of Jesus (resurrection to life) that they were. Even though they had already passed away, the blood of Jesus covered them also. We have the same hope (marie glen definition) for all. I find it very comforting, I no longer "grieve" because of that hope.
Just another way to put what everyone else is saying. :HeartThrob:
yes, yet another verse supporting UR. Well done !. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Patinak on February 17, 2017, 08:12:04 PM
Yes, a lot of doctrine and literature (Left Behind, rapture) have come out of these few verses. However, I still see the same idea within the whole context. To me these verses are more about Paul's emphasis on not grieving as unbelievers do concerning those already passed. :Peace2:
I believe this also. I see it as saying "not to sorry about those who have died like some do because they who sorrow don't have the hope that Jesus will resurrect them".
CHB
Amen. Thats the thing I love about the salvation of all. It sets us free from so many bondages, regardless of the details, we know that God will be all in all. :o)
Amen!!! ..and the Greek word translated Hope isn't merely a vague "hope"
as we've come to think of the word,
but "expectation" ..'trust" :dsunny:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm)
http://biblehub.com/greek/1680.htm (http://biblehub.com/greek/1680.htm)
Talk about Happy Endings.............. :dsunny:
D.
Amen! Exactly! :gimmefive:
..And how could it be any different? Can any human think of a happier ending than Him?
amen :thumbsup:
Hope is the direction of the vision of Him who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His desire.
Hope is the shared anticipation of things that are invisible in the present, but will surely become visible as we trust Him who has promised us that "hope makes not ashamed", which means, "hope never lets you down".
Hope is one of the three great building blocks of the kingdom of God, "Faith, hope and love"
In the kingdom of God hope is fixed on a promise that has been declared by God, who has no variation or shadow of turning and is faithful to do all that He has declared to be His desire and purpose.
Faith is the horse that pulls the cart. Love is the cart that holds the people. Hope is the map that marks out the true destination.
Hope deferred makes the heart sick but when the desire comes it is a tree of life.
Love is the magnetic field and hope is the pointer on the compass.
In the kingdom of God hope sdoes not say, "I wonder if God will do what He said". Hope says, "I eagerly await the fulfillment of what God has promised."
In the kingdom of God, when hope appears far off, we do not give up in discouragement, because we are not empowered by the fruition of hope, we are powered by "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith."