Matthew 10:28, not a threat

[marie glen]

It seems to me like the normal reading for Matthew 10:28 - do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (hell valley of Hinnom) is as though it is some sort of threat(?) to who? Well, he's talking to His disciples.

It struck me differently when reading it just a bit ago. Like "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in valley of Hinnom. Almost like `wink`...where at one time they burned the bones of the false prophets.. possibly telling them it's the false prophets who (will) kill? And they understanding what He was getting at.. implying.. And fiery judgment more and more seems, according to the Hebrew and Old Testament to be "upon Earth".. The false prophets of the day did come to 70 a.d. (But the false prophet(s) of our day i tend to think of as that secular "no need for God" theory, as ones likely to fulfill any killing of the body but not the soul.. :dontknow: I just wanted to post the whole thought.. and not imply e.t. as false prophet, because I don't believe that.)

I almost forgot.. the following verses, right afterwards He says "are not two sparrows sold for a penny.. and not one falls to the ground but your Father knows it, but even the very hairs of your head are numbered, fear not you are worth more than many sparrows.." It doesn't sound to me like He had just previously been threatening them with a fiery demise.
:Peace2: :gsmile:

[darryl]

good thoughts, Sister Marie....from my meagre understanding, I think 'Gehenna' was seen, by the Jews of Jesus time, as a place of temporary spiritual purging....maybe Jesus is also speaking of the destructive purging of the sin of the body and soul ?...before the spirit is redeemed ?..(humans are a tri unity of body soul and spirit, I believe)...just my  :2c:

[sheila]

Marie,I really like that...this occurred to me in regard to it.......those who traverse land and sea to make proselytes.....and when they do..they make them
"
  twofold the child of hell[body and soul]..and this...'of what benefit is it unto a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul.".tied in with..satans  temptation

   bow down and do one act of worship unto me and I will give you all the kingdoms of the world....  and this..for Thou will not leave my soul in hell.....

   deceiving spirits/false prophets..will lead you in the broad path of destruction..the Good shepherd will lead you to waters of life..but not many will believe

  unto the salvation of the soul.  Zechariah 9;11  as for thee also,by the blood of thy covenant,I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit where there is

  no water. Turn ye unto the stronghold ye prisoners of hope;even today do I declare I will render double unto thee.
   

   Double Peace.versus..double destruction/twice dead/Babylon the Great=give her double...fornicating with the kings of the earth=those that bowed the knee

to satan and received kingdoms of this world.   the self-exalted ones that kill you and think they do God a service[as sinners/infidels/blasphemers]



   Isaaih 66;5 Hear the word of the Lord,ye that tremble at his word. Your brethren that hated you,that cast ye out for my namesake,said;

   'Let the Lord be glorified;BUT HE SHALL APPEAR TO YOUR JOY,AND THEY SHALL BE ASHAMED"

  to me..this includes those who exclude the 'sinners of My people" and think they glorify God in doing so...from the free gift of eternal life and the grace

of God through Jesus Christ. The salvation of ALL men is the Glory of God!!!!..but they do not believe and put faith in Him that takes away all their sin....

    for they judge by the appeareance of the eyes...and see sin exhibited in their flesh...they don't realize they have a beam in their eye when they do this.

  for we wrestle not flesh and blood..but powers and principalities in high places. these principalities and powers as 'death' have been reigning in mans flesh..

   and it was God that bound up all men disobedience!!!!!! in order to show mercy unto them all!!!  for the creature was subjected unto vanity.....in the hope

  prisoners of HOPE!!!!!!!!

     I do believe ET is a false prophesy when 'twisted' into eternal condemnation of men /which Jesus saved..and give the free gift to be raised up in His image

     I do not believe it is false when divided rightly......and is applied to all deceiving lying seducing rebellious adversarial spirits....as it is a torment unto them

    that 'all their power and efforts against  God's plan of redemption,did not succeed"   no weapon formed against ye shall succeed..... :2c:


 

[Patinak]

Yes sheila,

this reminds me of when Jesus told the pharisees that they would die in their sins.  They 'missed the mark' of the gospel and like you posted in the Isaiah verse: BUT HE SHALL APPEAR TO YOUR JOY,AND THEY SHALL BE ASHAMED.
I think that the ones leading (His) children astray with the exclusionary doctrine of ET will die in their sins and be ashamed when they meet The truth face to face.  They will be judged by their own shame before they can cross over from death to life.

24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. [Jhn 5:24 NIV]

[micah7:9]

Yes sheila,

this reminds me of when Jesus told the pharisees that they would die in their sins.  They 'missed the mark' of the gospel and like you posted in the Isaiah verse: BUT HE SHALL APPEAR TO YOUR JOY,AND THEY SHALL BE ASHAMED.
I think that the ones leading (His) children astray with the exclusionary doctrine of ET will die in their sins and be ashamed when they meet The truth face to face.  They will be judged by their own shame before they can cross over from death to life.

24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. [Jhn 5:24 NIV]

:dsunny:

[marie glen]

 

good thoughts, Sister Marie....from my meagre understanding, I think 'Gehenna' was seen, by the Jews of Jesus time, as a place of temporary spiritual purging....maybe Jesus is also speaking of the destructive purging of the sin of the body and soul ?...before the spirit is redeemed ?..(humans are a tri unity of body soul and spirit, I believe)...just my  :2c:

body, heart, & mind? - and, or? - body, psyche, & the breath/vitality?

:Chinscratch: interesting, looking at the words.. this got me curious so did a little search.. (might as well post it?)

soul

G5590 the one used in this verse (Mt 10:28)
Thayer -
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal(? my?) soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]

G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit

G2222
zōē
dzo-ay'
From G2198; life; living (vitality)

-------------------------------------------------

H5315
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

H7307
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)

H2416
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively

-------------------------------------

:Chinscratch:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (Young's Literal)

7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit (H7307) returneth to God who gave it.

H7307
Strongs - rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
Brown-Driver-Briggs
1. wind, breath, mind, spirit
       a. breath
       b. wind
           1. of heaven
           2. quarter (of wind), side
           3. breath of air
           4. air, gas
           5. vain, empty thing
       c. spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
           1. spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
           2. courage
           3. temper, anger
           4. impatience, patience
           5. spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
           6. disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
           7. prophetic spirit
       d. spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
           1. as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
       e. spirit (as seat of emotion)
           1. desire
           2. sorrow, trouble
       f. spirit
           1. as seat or organ of mental acts
           2. rarely of the will
           3. as seat especially of moral character
       g. Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
           1. as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
           2. as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
           3. imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
           4. as endowing men with various gifts
           5. as energy of life
           6. as manifest in the Shekinah glory
           7. never referred to as a depersonalised force
Origin: from H7306
TWOT: 2131a
Parts of Speech: Noun Feminine

uses list - http://studybible.info/strongs/H7307 - breath, God's spirit, mind..

[jugghead]

I myself view things differently .....

The word "God" is a word that describes the whole .... and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit describe the parts of the whole

And in the same way .....

the word "soul" is a word that describes the whole ..... mind, heart and spirit are the three parts of the whole ..... our physical body is the vessel in which the soul dwells as a whole breath, but its parts are thought (of the mind) and emotion (of the heart) are manifested as word(s) in the spirit and then spoken by the physical body

my  :2c:

This is also why I do not believe God gets angry, the word used has to do with the nose and passion, words of anger come out of the mouths of men and are hurtful ...... God's breath comes out His nose showing His passion

I do not view God as "getting angry with His children" I see God as "being passionate with/about His children" ..... which relates to the building of the relationship between God and man rather than a division of the relationship in fear through anger .... Love casts out all fear

[darryl]

Yes sheila,

this reminds me of when Jesus told the pharisees that they would die in their sins.  They 'missed the mark' of the gospel and like you posted in the Isaiah verse: BUT HE SHALL APPEAR TO YOUR JOY,AND THEY SHALL BE ASHAMED.
I think that the ones leading (His) children astray with the exclusionary doctrine of ET will die in their sins and be ashamed when they meet The truth face to face.  They will be judged by their own shame before they can cross over from death to life.

24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. [Jhn 5:24 NIV]

it's interesting that they died in their sins yet are still  beloved of  God...as Paul says in  Romans : "In regard to the gospel they (the Pharasees etc ) are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers." Most of the Jews are enemies of the gospel, but God still loves them, and they are still part of the chosen people. Why? "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (verse 29). God will keep his promises.

[eaglesway]

Something related to the Pharisees dying in their sins....

When Jesus spoke of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, He was speaking to the Pharisees. He said there is no forgiveness for this sin "in this age, or the one to come".

This has been taught to mean there is never forgiveness for this sin, but what it really means is, those who commit that sin will be bound over for judgment at the Great White Throne, which is at the end of the next age.

This, to me, is the same as what it means to die in ones sins. The one who dies in their sins will not rise in the first resurrection at the end of this age. They are bound over for judgment, "on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ"(Romans 2), at the end of the age to come(unless you are a preterist in which case you will disagree with everything I say but please lets not debate that :o). At the end of the next age, all the dead will be raised, the wicked and the good. Among the wicked will be those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and they will stand before the Lord and every hidden thing will be brought to light, until the last knee bows, the last adversary is subjected through repentance and faith towards God- all those blasphemers of the Holy Ghost and all those who received the mark of the beast(literally or metaphorically) and every other abomination and hostility towards God will be resolved by the consuming fire of His presence- which is love and light.

In Matthew 10:28"...fear Him who is able to destroy(apolesai, from apollumi) both the body and the soul in Gehenna."

Again, we are taught that to be "apollumi" is to be "utterly destroyed"- thats what Strong says.... Yet Jesus says, "I came to seek and save that which was lost(apollumi)"- So by their own sword they fall- Jesus has come to save even that- moreover ESPECIALLY that, which is apollumi.
8What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, 6comes home, and calls together his friends and neighbors to tell them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep!'...

Yes, Rejoice for that sheep which was again, "apollumi", has been recovered by the shepherd- who left the 99 righteous just to save this "apollumi" sheep. :o)

Likewise, the prodigal, who was both "nekros" and "apollumi"(Luke 15:24) returns to his fathers house after having been tread upon in the winepress of tribulation- "alive again" and "found".

I disagree, however respectfully, that God never gets angry....regardless of etymology the general context of scriptures speaks differently to me on that. God gets angry, but He never "loses His temper". His anger is fleeting and His mercy is everlasting.

[marie glen]

Amen, watching some of the things/abuses carried out against vulnerable people (like tons and tons! if we consider all of history) what Loving God worth His salt as the saying goes, not be angry and, or highly displeased.. And i agree.. however, He's not like us, and can "lose" His temper..

At the end of the next age, all the dead will be raised, the wicked and the good. Among the wicked will be those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and they will stand before the Lord and every hidden thing will be brought to light, until the last knee bows, the last adversary is subjected through repentance and faith towards God- all those blasphemers of the Holy Ghost and all those who received the mark of the beast(literally or metaphorically) and every other abomination and hostility towards God will be resolved by the consuming fire of His presence- which is love and light.

In Matthew 10:28"...fear Him who is able to destroy(apolesai, from apollumi) both the body and the soul in Gehenna."

Again, we are taught that to be "apollumi" is to be "utterly destroyed"- thats what Strong says....

..I was thinking just today how the translators, etc, seem to 'always' go for the most extreme meaning of words (their so often having a wide range of application)

Yet Jesus says, "I came to seek and save that which was lost(apollumi)"- So by their own sword they fall- Jesus has come to save even that- moreover ESPECIALLY that, which is apollumi.

I think it's apollumi that includes in its range "lost"? ..right? I looked it up ( http://studybible.info/strongs/G622 ) included is "to lose" (oh, now that I read again, I see you mentioned that..

8What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, 6comes home, and calls together his friends and neighbors to tell them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep!'...

Yes, Rejoice for that sheep which was again, "apollumi", has been recovered by the shepherd- who left the 99 righteous just to save this "apollumi" sheep. :o)

       :thumbsup: :banana: (Love that! Great illustration and image, amen, amen, so true!)

Likewise, the prodigal, who was both "nekros" and "apollumi"(Luke 15:24) returns to his fathers house after having been tread upon in the winepress of tribulation- "alive again" and "found".

    :faint: ...Amen!!

[darryl]

the thought of God angry is terrifying...if u think its like our anger....it cant be.......God knew monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc, would arise....ok, He's angry at them....yet, He allowed it to happen..I cant get my head around that...it only makes sense if His anger is unlike ours...because 'anger' carries the connotation if u will of being taken by surprise...and God is never taken by surprise.

[GodIsLove]

the thought of God angry is terrifying...if u think its like our anger....it cant be.......God knew monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc, would arise....ok, He's angry at them....yet, He allowed it to happen..I cant get my head around that...it only makes sense if His anger is unlike ours...because 'anger' carries the connotation if u will of being taken by surprise...and God is never taken by surprise.

:iagree:

[eaglesway]

I am not so much challenging that, but, we have these accepted "myths" about God that I am not so sure of... so bear with me

Remember God said, "It never entered my mind" concerning burning children to Molech

It is written, before the flood, "It repented Him that He had made man".

There are a few other verses like this that indicate to me that we tend to look at God through our own perspectives on what "knowing" is versus what "being" is.

God is always "being"(I AM THAT I AM). We are always "knowing". That's what went wrong when we ate of the TOKOGAE.

Jesus is taking us back to "being" over "knowing"...

"The wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we dont know where it is going or from whence it came, SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit"

I think a perfect being, an immense, all-loving Creator is able to handle anything.... I am not so sure, as some are, that He has "already handled everything" in a mechanical sense and that He can never "learn" or "experience" anything. I believe it is possible He only "already handled everything" in the sense of His awesome being and infinite love...in His immediate being, which transcends time, and "Is Who He Is" in every moment. "Behold I make all things new".

But it is  a "TODAY" experience. (Today if you hear my voice... Today is the Day that the Lord has made....Today is the day of salvation)

It is a "NOW" state of being that God is drawing us into... sharing what is means to say "I AM".... That is why there is no shadow of turning with Him... He Is Who He Is no matter what, He expresses and reacts and hurts and loves and He says so all over His Word. He said so again in Jesus, who is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature.

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variation, or shadow of turning;
in the exercise of His will, He gave birth to us through the word of truth, to become a kind first-fruit of His creation.

We are becoming as He is, with no variation or shadow of turning, which does not mean stoic and staid, it means pure in love all the way through, guided by the same heart that is in Him, pure in "being"- beyond "knowing"- under and over "knowing", love is that which is perfect and it is coming, even as that which is imperfect is fading away.

What I would say about God's anger is that THERE IS NO MALICE IN IT. It is not because anyone has taken from Him or abrogated His plan. But God does get angry at times, I think, when people stare into His face as they do harm to His little ones, because "They are all without excuse, since from the beginning God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly displayed through the things that He has made".

But that is another confirmation of UR. God is who He is. He is not double minded. He could not live eternally, jailing one part of His creation in torment while the "first-fruits" and the "few" exalted in a so-called "victory over evil". The adversary would always have the satisfaction of knowing that he had robbed God of His desire, "Who desires that no one would perish and that all would come to the knowledge of the truth". How can God who says "all things work according to the counsel of my desire", the "I AM' from whom every good and perfect gift comes down, be without variableness and shadow of turning, if the One good and perfect gift, The Lamb Of God come down from heaven, is unable to fulfill His own words.

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"

"Behold, I am making all things new. Write down these words, for they are faithful and true."

[sheila]

I differ on pov about God repenting of ever making man. I read it like this; He changed His mind about the corruptible vessel

   ..the weakness of the vessel[marred vessel in His hand] thus He exercised His authority to remake man into a vessel of honour

  resurrection/raise in incorruption/immortality. Even many of the prophets wished they had never been born.........and seen

  the evil done under the sun.  IMO it is the biological vessel..that houses His  children's  spirit..and .the more powerful adversary that

  they were up against.  Flesh and blood can not inherit.... Thus..He redeems the spirit[son] of man and clothes them with incorruptible

  immortal bodies.He changed His mind[repent]and drastically reduced the time He would subject us unto this world. He even

promised that never again would His word[water of heaven] become a flood to destroy all flesh. And He made a covenant with all

flesh..never again.   Now we know if ever He opens the floodgates of heaven..it is even a blessing that is poured out until there is no more want. :2c:

     the rebellious spirits were putting evil thoughts continually in the minds of man. Just as the Holy spirit leads our thoughts into truth/love.

[sheila]

..He judged His creation good /and man..when He rested on the 7th day.....corruption/evil entered into the 'good'..and now He will recreate

  into PERFECTION/INCORRUPTION/IMMORTALITY. Look at the two tree's in the midst of the garden.  good/tokogae/tol :2c:

[darryl]

I am not so much challenging that, but, we have these accepted "myths" about God that I am not so sure of... so bear with me

Remember God said, "It never entered my mind" concerning burning children to Molech

It is written, before the flood, "It repented Him that He had made man".

There are a few other verses like this that indicate to me that we tend to look at God through our own perspectives on what "knowing" is versus what "being" is.

God is always "being"(I AM THAT I AM). We are always "knowing". That's what went wrong when we ate of the TOKOGAE.

Jesus is taking us back to "being" over "knowing"...

"The wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we dont know where it is going or from whence it came, SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit"

I think a perfect being, an immense, all-loving Creator is able to handle anything.... I am not so sure, as some are, that He has "already handled everything" in a mechanical sense and that He can never "learn" or "experience" anything. I believe it is possible He only "already handled everything" in the sense of His awesome being and infinite love...in His immediate being, which transcends time, and "Is Who He Is" in every moment. "Behold I make all things new".

But it is  a "TODAY" experience. (Today if you hear my voice... Today is the Day that the Lord has made....Today is the day of salvation)

It is a "NOW" state of being that God is drawing us into... sharing what is means to say "I AM".... That is why there is no shadow of turning with Him... He Is Who He Is no matter what, He expresses and reacts and hurts and loves and He says so all over His Word. He said so again in Jesus, who is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature.

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variation, or shadow of turning;
in the exercise of His will, He gave birth to us through the word of truth, to become a kind first-fruit of His creation.

We are becoming as He is, with no variation or shadow of turning, which does not mean stoic and staid, it means pure in love all the way through, guided by the same heart that is in Him, pure in "being"- beyond "knowing"- under and over "knowing", love is that which is perfect and it is coming, even as that which is imperfect is fading away.

What I would say about God's anger is that THERE IS NO MALICE IN IT. It is not because anyone has taken from Him or abrogated His plan. But God does get angry at times, I think, when people stare into His face as they do harm to His little ones, because "They are all without excuse, since from the beginning God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly displayed through the things that He has made".

But that is another confirmation of UR. God is who He is. He is not double minded. He could not live eternally, jailing one part of His creation in torment while the "first-fruits" and the "few" exalted in a so-called "victory over evil". The adversary would always have the satisfaction of knowing that he had robbed God of His desire, "Who desires that no one would perish and that all would come to the knowledge of the truth". How can God who says "all things work according to the counsel of my desire", the "I AM' from whom every good and perfect gift comes down, be without variableness and shadow of turning, if the One good and perfect gift, The Lamb Of God come down from heaven, is unable to fulfill His own words.

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"

"Behold, I am making all things new. Write down these words, for they are faithful and true."

much to ponder here...ex- hellists like myself are very sensitive about notions of God's 'anger' and 'wrath'...it conjures up visions of God tormenting human beings, if not in hellfire, certainly in other ways...because of the emotional  'scarring' from our past through being exposed to hellfire sermons by fear- mongering pastors and priests...it can take years to finally get rid of such hideous ideas.

[jugghead]

I will say one last thing and leave it at that, I do like causing confusion to those who do not know which to believe.

ETers in their teachings say God gets angry with man ..... I have been brought out of their teachings and have come to think differently ..... so why should this subject be any different

[eaglesway]

Yea, and I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just sharing my own thoughts about it. I tend to see fuzzier lines around a lot of the questions that people try to systematize. And in the end I feel that the whole context of scripture must be satisfied, so as far my own perceptions are concerned, I cannot toss out any verses where God expresses His emotions through the prophets, the psalmists, the apostles- even Christ turning over the tables in the temple..... whatever they are. I have no fear, because I know that everything resolves in the love of God and Christ crucified. I also know that God is not an angry God- but He isn't a mush either lolol

[jugghead]

Yea, and I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am just sharing my own thoughts about it. I tend to see fuzzier lines around a lot of the questions that people try to systematize. And in the end I feel that the whole context of scripture must be satisfied, so as far my own perceptions are concerned, I cannot toss out any verses where God expresses His emotions through the prophets, the psalmists, the apostles- even Christ turning over the tables in the temple..... whatever they are. I have no fear, because I know that everything resolves in the love of God and Christ crucified. I also know that God is not an angry God- but He isn't a mush either lolol

Agreed ..... He isn't a mush either ..... and I too am just sharing my thoughts

Blessings EW

[Cocoon]

I would like to add that is my own experience that has shown me that God doesn't mind giving a good hefty spiritual spanking.  God crushed me but for good cause.  I was a prideful booger.  And when I say He crushed me I am not exaggerating.  It was a humiliating ordeal and I was well aware that I deserved hell.  In fact, I was quite certain of it for months.  I cried myself asleep and yes, the Spirit did try to comfort me but only logical proof of the systematic study of romans was I able to be convinced of my salvation.   But I know this was all God's doing and I don't blame him in that I say he was cruel and wrong but that the self righteous, cruel person that I was needed to become something that I abhorred in order to know that the ways of God are perfect and loving.  The only way to do that was by the command of God.  We are all one moment away from making fools of ourselves but there are certain things one would not do unless under the influence.  So it was and I realize the wrath of God is painful but good.  It burns dreadfully but certainly not as dreadfully as in the day of judgment.   And so I found mercy and such undeserved mercy and I am thankful for the fire that consumed the darkness that was in me.  We mustn't hate the idea of punishment.  Only reject the idea that God is inept to consume the flesh of all men because he will one day.  He will look at our dead bodies and we shall look to and we will abhor the people we once were. 

[marie glen]

the thought of God angry is terrifying...if u think its like our anger....it cant be.......God knew monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc, would arise....ok, He's angry at them....yet, He allowed it to happen..I cant get my head around that...it only makes sense if His anger is unlike ours...because 'anger' carries the connotation if u will of being taken by surprise...and God is never taken by surprise.

The way I think of it is that God Himself iS Life... and also Perfection.. So when He created rational creatures a whole new world (er, tree?) of possibilities came about.. (And of course He was fully aware of that.. but whats the other option? No rational creatures? ever? :Chinscratch: )

Logic (prayer, logic and listening that is) tells me, if HE is both Life and Perfection, then as soon as one thinks, says or does any tiny thing which disagrees with what He is and thinks, etc, is to become imperfect. The opposite of life. Surely? included in rationality/thinking ability, sooner or later, is the ability to make choices (albeit highly limited, thank the good LORD!) So then, how to go about creating UN-breakable perfection? (Paradise) without sticking with robots or the like? (And would that be perfect?)

It seems to me, the way He is doing it is by letting 'choice' run its course.. which I believe is a bottomless pit of potential -- in that in the fallen creature's heart, as to how low can they go.. well, it appears it's an abyss as to just how low one can go. (In Rev 9, out of the abyss [and Joel's smoky day?] comes? Yes it comes from the adversary, but using humans)..

By His letting/ordaining 'choice' running its course, He proves His point 100%.. We will abhor our flawed (carnal/lower) nature/character.. And, we will know full well that to wander from Him in any way con only result, as they saying goes, in our crashing and burning. Our crashing and burning, both individually, and collectively. Which, i believe, the crashing and burning unveils true from untrue (good from evil) which imo, is also life from death/nonlife - which is where we all would have ended up but for His intervention and rescue, which "He built in from the beginning/foundation"..

And I think in order to fully prove His point to every heart, mind and psyche, you let it fully run its course, including the "lowest one can go" ...hitler, pol pot, stalin, idi amin.. etc, etc.. etc.. genocides.. wars... all the horrible mess.. But if He were to interfere (constantly, as of course He does somewhat interfere) then how would His point be proven?

To me the difference is like a parent.. saying don't play in the road child.. does the best parent say "because I said so!" and leave it at that? Or does the good parent fully explain why said child should not, no never, ever, play in the road. I believe we are aLL learning "do not go that way". What way? In any way that is 'away from Him' who is Life. (And perfection.. "Be ye perfect" - is His will? - "as your Father in heaven is Perfect".) What is said (after the Holy Spirit) to be the best teacher?

Therefor letting even the horrible occur, is very important. For it proves Him right. Going that way (wrong road which leads away from Him and His Perfect will in all things) can only result in a self destructive wisp of smoke (apocalypse). Because He IS life. Which smoke of (apocalypse) shall rise up forever and ever.. (imo) in every heart, mind and psyche.. Never to be forgotten. (And all shall say, imo, thank you LORD!!)
    :banana: :dsunny: :cloud9:

These were 'answers' I received after my son about 17/18? years ago asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm". I answered him and was a solid happy believer.. but I was happy with my answers so I prayed for better understanding.. and these 'answers' knocked my socks off and they are still off.. (A.k.a, made a big impact.)

Included with it, was the idea (answer) that He, being Life, lives through, witnesses and experiences all horrors which ever occur!! (Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating an ant farm, or robots, but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an UN-breakable paradise/perfection.
     :Peace2:

[MHz]

It seems to me like the normal reading for Matthew 10:28 - do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (hell valley of Hinnom) is as though it is some sort of threat(?) to who? Well, he's talking to His disciples.

From the POV of a literalist it is to them but they should pass the message along to all believers.
Satan has certain ways he is allowed to torment people. The thistles and such at the exile from the garden is a gift from Satan. Job is an example how he is allowed to create hell and that is repeated in the 5 months of hell that starts when the 5th trump sounds, then he is allowed to start killing people, in large numbers. God, on the other hand can kill even more people in a shorter period of time and then he can go on to keep them aware of what is going on and none of it is pleasant to experience. That is why God should be feared more than anyone, including Angels good and bad

[marie glen]

Amen! He can destroy, totally and completely.. And we are to trust in God and not fear what man can do to us.. rather fear He who can fully annihilate.. And of course that is the true potential and is exactly what would happen if not for His "Great Plan of Salvation" :banana: :cloud9: He can annihilate us all, but instead, "while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us"... "Jesus, savior of the world" .. "to be testified to in due time" ..."As in Adam all die, in Christ all will live, but each in their own order, [1]Christ the Firstfruits, [2]those that are His at His coming (all believers resurrected at His return)... then, [3] the 'end' when He hands the kingdom over to the Father, that the Father may be all in all" 1 Cor. 15:22-28.

"Behold" says the Father in Revelation 21 "I make all things new..."  :cloud9: :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  Amen  MHz ,  and Marie   :HeartThrob:

  Many   FEAR THE UNKNOWN GOD  , are being perfected and completed in Christ  , to know the full impact of the LOVE OF GOD

  TO KNOW HIM IS TO LOVE HIM . we wait on the Lord  to complete His work in everyone  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

It is an interesting verse. Very threatening in a way. Jesus is illustrating the the power of the creator to destroy what He has made. He does this in several ways on several occasions, in references to Noah, to the tower that fell in Siloam("except you repent you shall all likewise perish"). When Jesus is teaching the disciples He is not threatening them directly, but filling in the wider perspective of the Creator and His ways. Sometimes He speaks of mercy, sometimes of fear("some save with mercy, some save with fear- hating even the garment spotted by flesh")

There are things that are not meant to be fully explained, but rather left brooding over the chaos and predatory wickedness of men- as Paul said, the sword is prepared for evil doers. We cannot dull its edge, because it belongs to God in this age and the next.

Also, the body and soul destroyrd(apollumi....ruined/lost) can still be raised from the dead- where does it say they cannot? We jump to conclusions that are not in the writings to suit our own theories and maintain our precious paradigms- but God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants too and is not bound by our little boxes.

I said that to someone once and the replied, "Yes but He is bound to His word". But....He is not bound to my understanding of the word. His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts, so sometimes I truly enjoy saying...

"I dont know, and I truly believe you dont either :o)"

In the end it is faith in the broadstrokes that wins the heart and mind through the "foolishness of preaching(proclaiming).

I know that God redeems all from His disciplines and recovers all from His punishments. I have my evidences yes- but in the final analysis- I just proclaim it and trust the Holy Spirit to confirm it in the hearts of the hearers as they read the word and fellowship with Him, on down the line.

I dont go too far- try to make God out a nice guy who would never hurt a fly :o), because He is awesome and terrible at times, stirring the pot of chaos lest we rest and find peace in our sins, finding out the secrets of the deceitful and exposing them, and creating nightmares to bring monsters to their senses.

God does not void all the consequences of our actions, even for those upon whom He has already declared redemption and restoration- because He is making us into the image of His Son who is the radiance of His own glory and the exact representation of His own nature. As the potter, He must sometime crush the vessel and start over, before it is hardened in the kiln having some flaw that makes it useless.