In danger of geheena fire

[marie glen]

Matthew 5:22, Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

If you keep being angry at your brother.. you are in danger of being a criminal against him? (Harming him, a grave sin.)

And, or, the malice is a pollutant and will require more 'fiery' purification?

Just some thoughts..
   :Peace2:

[Dandelion]

Well, this is what I read once, about Gehenna.

'Fast forward to 2 Kings 23:10 and the reformer king Josiah breaks down all the altars of the false Gods in Judah and Israel, and specifically burns the bones of all the priests and prophets of these false religions upon the altar at Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom(ge' henna), where Israel sacrificed children to the fire for Molloch under Jereboam.

Gehenna became a garbage dump where destestable refuse was burned, according to the writings of the Rabbi's, and came to represent judgement even to the Jews.  Jesus used it as a representation of the fire of purging that awaits the wicked and hypocrites in the age to come.'

Seems to me to pull all the pieces together.

D.

[Seth]

I tend to look at it from the scriptural sense as Dandelion posted. The garbage dump theory, from everything I've read, is unsubstantiated. I agree Marie.

In fact, I believe the OP Scripture uses the same word for the insult.

I think what Jesus is saying, if you call your brother a fool, you face the sandhedrin judges from a human perspective. But if you call your brother a fool you face an even deeper problem, one of idolatry and wrath, a spiritual judgment.

[micah7:9]

I tend to look at it from the scriptural sense as Dandelion posted. The garbage dump theory, from everything I've read, is unsubstantiated. I agree Marie.

In fact, I believe the OP Scripture uses the same word for the insult.

I think what Jesus is saying, if you call your brother a fool, you face the sandhedrin judges from a human perspective. But if you call your brother a fool you face an even deeper problem, one of idolatry and wrath, a spiritual judgment.

What does geheena represent?

[Dandelion]

Reading in 1Kings 11, we see that after the death of David, and nearing the end of the reign of Solomon, the people of Israel had begun to worship foreign Gods, even as Solomon had foreign wives and turned away from the Lord. There was a young man named Jeroboam, the son of Nebat. He was described as a mighty man of valor, and Solomon had set him over all the affairs of the house of Joseph. A prophet took him aside and told him that God was going to make Him the ruler of ten tribes of Israel- taking them from Solomon's reign for his unfaithfulness.

Jeroboam falls out of favor with Solomon over this and flees to Egypt.

Solomon dies and Rehoboam his son becomes king. The elders of Israel gather to him and ask him to lighten the load of taxation that Solomon had placed upon them. Rehoboam refuses, and increases them even more.

The ten tribes of Israel secede from the union and make Jeroboam their king, as the prophet had prophesied.

Jeroboam was offered, by YHWH, a continuing kingdom like David's, if he would trust and serve Him, but here is what Jeroboam did instead.

He refused to allow the children of Israel to go up to to Jerusalem once a year to give offerings to God in His city, the city of David, because he was afraid they would return to Judah and Rehoboam's rule so....

He took two golden calves, putting one in the south of Israel and one in the north, and he said, "These are your gods O Israel." He drove the Levites out of Israel. He built a new temple and he sat in the temple of God. He eventually erected a statue of the Fish God of the Philistines, Dagon, in his temple, and he created a new religion, he changing the feast days and all the traditions and ruled Israel like a pagan king, and Israel worshipped the Gods of the nations on the high places.

God sent another prophet to Jeroboam. This prophet prophesied to Jeroboam, in his temple, that YHWH would raise up a new King in Judah, named Josiah, and that he would burn the bones of the priests of Baal upon the altars of Molloch.

Fast forward to 2 Kings 23:10 and the reformer king Josiah breaks down all the altars of the false Gods in Judah and Israel, and specifically burns the bones of all the priests and prophets of these false religions upon the altar at Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom(ge' henna), where Israel sacrificed children to the fire for Molloch under Jereboam.

Gehenna became a garbage dump where destestable refuse was burned, according to the writings of the Rabbi's, and came to represent judgement even to the Jews.  Jesus used it as a representation of the fire of purging that awaits the wicked and hypocrites in the age to come.

The above is from the same reading I got the past passage from.



I think that explains Gehenna.

D.

[jugghead]

I tend to look at it from the scriptural sense as Dandelion posted. The garbage dump theory, from everything I've read, is unsubstantiated. I agree Marie.

In fact, I believe the OP Scripture uses the same word for the insult.

I think what Jesus is saying, if you call your brother a fool, you face the sandhedrin judges from a human perspective. But if you call your brother a fool you face an even deeper problem, one of idolatry and wrath, a spiritual judgment.

In what I have come to understand ..... calling someone a fool is the result of seeing yourself as not being one ..... raising yourself above another and that is a spirit of pride ..... how you judge another will be measured back to you (paraphrased) ..... you become the fool in pride and now require correction  :2c:

[Seth]

I tend to look at it from the scriptural sense as Dandelion posted. The garbage dump theory, from everything I've read, is unsubstantiated. I agree Marie.

In fact, I believe the OP Scripture uses the same word for the insult.

I think what Jesus is saying, if you call your brother a fool, you face the sandhedrin judges from a human perspective. But if you call your brother a fool you face an even deeper problem, one of idolatry and wrath, a spiritual judgment.

What does geheena represent?

I think it represents the consuming spiritual destruction of sin/idolatry.

[Seth]

I tend to look at it from the scriptural sense as Dandelion posted. The garbage dump theory, from everything I've read, is unsubstantiated. I agree Marie.

In fact, I believe the OP Scripture uses the same word for the insult.

I think what Jesus is saying, if you call your brother a fool, you face the sandhedrin judges from a human perspective. But if you call your brother a fool you face an even deeper problem, one of idolatry and wrath, a spiritual judgment.

In what I have come to understand ..... calling someone a fool is the result of seeing yourself as not being one ..... raising yourself above another and that is a spirit of pride ..... how you judge another will be measured back to you (paraphrased) ..... you become the fool in pride and now require correction  :2c:

I agree. I think there is precident in the Bible where God tailors the correction to the sin, making those who say "fool" foolish themselves, blinding them etc.

[jugghead]

I tend to look at it from the scriptural sense as Dandelion posted. The garbage dump theory, from everything I've read, is unsubstantiated. I agree Marie.

In fact, I believe the OP Scripture uses the same word for the insult.

I think what Jesus is saying, if you call your brother a fool, you face the sandhedrin judges from a human perspective. But if you call your brother a fool you face an even deeper problem, one of idolatry and wrath, a spiritual judgment.

What does geheena represent?

I think it represents the consuming spiritual destruction of sin/idolatry.

:iagree: Seth  ...   whole heartedly

[Seth]

Reading in 1Kings 11, we see that after the death of David, and nearing the end of the reign of Solomon, the people of Israel had begun to worship foreign Gods, even as Solomon had foreign wives and turned away from the Lord. There was a young man named Jeroboam, the son of Nebat. He was described as a mighty man of valor, and Solomon had set him over all the affairs of the house of Joseph. A prophet took him aside and told him that God was going to make Him the ruler of ten tribes of Israel- taking them from Solomon's reign for his unfaithfulness.

Jeroboam falls out of favor with Solomon over this and flees to Egypt.

Solomon dies and Rehoboam his son becomes king. The elders of Israel gather to him and ask him to lighten the load of taxation that Solomon had placed upon them. Rehoboam refuses, and increases them even more.

The ten tribes of Israel secede from the union and make Jeroboam their king, as the prophet had prophesied.

Jeroboam was offered, by YHWH, a continuing kingdom like David's, if he would trust and serve Him, but here is what Jeroboam did instead.

He refused to allow the children of Israel to go up to to Jerusalem once a year to give offerings to God in His city, the city of David, because he was afraid they would return to Judah and Rehoboam's rule so....

He took two golden calves, putting one in the south of Israel and one in the north, and he said, "These are your gods O Israel." He drove the Levites out of Israel. He built a new temple and he sat in the temple of God. He eventually erected a statue of the Fish God of the Philistines, Dagon, in his temple, and he created a new religion, he changing the feast days and all the traditions and ruled Israel like a pagan king, and Israel worshipped the Gods of the nations on the high places.

God sent another prophet to Jeroboam. This prophet prophesied to Jeroboam, in his temple, that YHWH would raise up a new King in Judah, named Josiah, and that he would burn the bones of the priests of Baal upon the altars of Molloch.

Fast forward to 2 Kings 23:10 and the reformer king Josiah breaks down all the altars of the false Gods in Judah and Israel, and specifically burns the bones of all the priests and prophets of these false religions upon the altar at Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom(ge' henna), where Israel sacrificed children to the fire for Molloch under Jereboam.

Gehenna became a garbage dump where destestable refuse was burned, according to the writings of the Rabbi's, and came to represent judgement even to the Jews.  Jesus used it as a representation of the fire of purging that awaits the wicked and hypocrites in the age to come.

The above is from the same reading I got the past passage from.



I think that explains Gehenna.

D.

I like much of what you wrote. Butn it's articles like the one linked below that keep me focused on the scripture for meaning because it doesn't seem that the garbage dump theory can be proved.

http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html?m=1

[Dandelion]

Sorry, but I don't see your article and this one contradicting, Seth. Maybe I missed something?

D.

[Seth]

Did the blog link not work?

[micah7:9]

A suggestion maybe the blog article is in error? I am not going to debate but such a valley with such history of burning why would it not be used as a trash dump? :Peace2:

[sheila]

...th 'sinners' in Zion are afraid...who can dwell with continual burnings...........for I will not always be wroth..for then even the very spirit would fail....

...for Our God is a consuming fire...because of His great love ye sons of men are NOT consumed.

   Valley of the decision...valley of the dry bones[what will they do in the dry]   armagheddon..God's decision.......that man shall be restored[bones NOT burned to chalk]

  instead clothed with flesh of His flesh..........

  sons of men NOT consumed in the fire of His wrath/judgement.  Man to die once then the resurrection.......DECISION..to cut off[perdition]...to end a despute..by giving

  one side the victory[fear not I have overcome the world]..or passing judgement. Goodnews for ALL men unto us a son is given...Saviour........


   God's judgement/decision...just as all have bore the image of the corrupt...so,too shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.the only one 'Lost' is the son of perdition


   what is consumed?.......the works of the wicked one....the smoke of her burning rises continually..........we are saved through the fire when the works of the wicked

  one is consumed...consummation/end  in our flesh..even death of the flesh.....and are raised up in incorruption.........the end of all flesh..look to me and be saved

all ye ends of the earth!...cursed is the earth on your account..it will bring forth briars and thorns...the wicked one is briar and thorns.......He consumes wickedness

  that man may LIVE...He casts out all that causes offense/stumbling and sin...He plagues death itself..that His creature LIVE...He lifts up the weak and lowly

from the dust heap....RISE! Put on your glorious garments! shake yourself free from the dust....ye that were brought low..who made your backs like the street[trampled]


   War broke out in heaven..Michael[who is like God] and his angels fought..and satan and his...and satan and his were cast down unto the earth.....the battle continues

  here on the earth[enmity between the seed]  in the flesh of men....a weak flesh...an enemy stronger than us.....a need for saviours/deliverers to arise on MT ZION

   the VICTORY COMES IN BEING IN GOD'S IMAGE AND LIKENESS[who is like God?} MICHAEL STANDING UP....man does not have the victory in the corrupt image.....

  but a bruised heel[death in his flesh due to serpent bruising it] man's victory is the new creature in the likeness image of God.


     He has freely given this us...that we may overcome...by MY SPIRIT...........when Michael stands up...the image and likeness of God is raised up....in..the incorruptible

  immortal..........our last enemy..death..is overcome.   Who is like God?  the adversary deceived into disobedience...to bring forth his corrupt image[tares]..and death

   God has consumed the wicked works of the liar..by giving man to eat of the TOL...He consumes death,,and it is swallowed up of LIFE in the indestructible Spirit and

  likeness of God[image].    that is why when you see Him face to face..ye will be just like Him.children of God..bearing His likeness and image.


    We have nothing to fear...fear not those who can kill the body and do nothing else.


    God started a 'good' work in man....it is good...let us make man in our image and likeness...immortal/incorruptible/just/righteous/merciful/long-suffering etc......

   AND HE WILL FINISH IT......GOD HIMSELF WILL FINISH YOUR TRAINING......  He is dealing with you as sons.


   it has NOT entered the heart of God to burn/consume His children in the fire..it has entered into the heart of God to bring forth His image and likeness in His children.

      the flesh counts for nothing! this is a spiritual work...God is a spirit!...the nations are but dust on the scales in His eyes!!  It is His spiritual nation born in one day

    that is His prizing

     He remembers we are in flesh and blood..and exhibits long-suffering and mercy and tenderness..bearing our current imperfections in the flesh...as He looks forward

   to His  perfection likeness and image coming forth in us!!!!!and all men!   when we are not bearing His likeness and image..we are as dead/lost unto Him...lost sons

     prodigals, cut off from union and oneness with Him.  Those [all men] born of the will of God bear His likeness and image..can see eye to eye..understand,commune

   with Him.

   unto His sons..God has said ' I have seen the way he  has taken...I will heal him and restore comforts unto him"  He saw his prodigal son go forth from His home......

     and He restored comforts and healing unto him when he returned home.......our fleshly/corrupt image is the prodigal..as dead and lost..alienated from Our Father. :2c:

     
   






       

[Seth]

A suggestion maybe the blog article is in error? I am not going to debate but such a valley with such history of burning why would it not be used as a trash dump? :Peace2:

I don't know. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that it was though. I just, myself, see that it is not disputable that the valley is referenced in the OT. That it was used for a garbage dump is disputable. So, I prefer to base an interpretation on its scriptural presence than on a disputable claim from outside scripture.

My thought process, essentially, is that UR is not widely held among Christians, but if it started to become so, ET adherents would start ramping up analysis of UR claims and scriptural justifications. If a belief is being propagated without evidence, they can claim that UR is basically making things up to suit their own agenda.

After all, UR believers tend to say that ETers believe something that is not supported by the actual evidence. Is the garbage dump theory supported by evidence?

[jugghead]

Good point Seth

Let your yes be yes and your no be no

[darryl]

A suggestion maybe the blog article is in error? I am not going to debate but such a valley with such history of burning why would it not be used as a trash dump? :Peace2:

I don't know. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that it was though. I just, myself, see that it is not disputable that the valley is referenced in the OT. That it was used for a garbage dump is disputable. So, I prefer to base an interpretation on its scriptural presence than on a disputable claim from outside scripture.

My thought process, essentially, is that UR is not widely held among Christians, but if it started to become so, ET adherents would start ramping up analysis of UR claims and scriptural justifications. If a belief is being propagated without evidence, they can claim that UR is basically making things up to suit their own agenda.

After all, UR believers tend to say that ETers believe something that is not supported by the actual evidence. Is the garbage dump theory supported by evidence?

God said it never entered His mind to burn humans in fire as a sacrfice to Molecch in Gehenna..Yahweh called it an 'abomination'....yet, ETers say God will burn His children forever in Gehenna, in Hell ?..and Jesus, as
God, forgave His enemies who were tormenting Him, from the cross....obviously, ETers are wrong and dont know the character of God.

[darryl]

from Wikipedia

Rabbinical Judaism

The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year. There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[22] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.

Due to Jewish religious tradition regarding the bloodiness of its history[clarification needed], Gehenna became a metonym for "Hell" or any similar place of punishment in the afterlife.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 AD). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[23] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[24] from 1986 holds a similar view.

There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BC. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BC and AD. By 70 AD, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.[25]

In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore.[26][27]

Eventually the Hebrew term Gehinnom[28] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment.[29] After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.[30]

[marie glen]

A suggestion maybe the blog article is in error? I am not going to debate but such a valley with such history of burning why would it not be used as a trash dump? :Peace2:

That was my thought, a while back when doing some 'googling' about it.. read articles saying the idea of a dump is not supported by archeology, mostly I guess.. and that just a rabbi back when wrote about it.. But I thought, how do we know that bit the rabbi wrote wasn't a memory passed down through the generations?


         But even if it never was... "burned the bones of the false prophets there" wow..

and, the final battle of mankind is prophesied to take place there! ..which i can't help but think will be fiery.. the consummation of all that mankind has done while in the mind of the flesh ("sense and reason without the Holy Spirit" Amp.Ver.) of dog eat dog (and also of man's splitting of the atom, rev 6:12-17;13:13) ...fiery, right there focused on that valley.. the bones of the false prophets.. every thing false/untrue (the lies which sting) consumed.. eventually forever (aka, age to age) the smoke of the destruction rising up forever and ever emblazoned upon the hearts and minds of every psyche/rational creature in heaven and earth, saying.. 'go not that way'...ever..

[Seth]

A suggestion maybe the blog article is in error? I am not going to debate but such a valley with such history of burning why would it not be used as a trash dump? :Peace2:

I don't know. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that it was though. I just, myself, see that it is not disputable that the valley is referenced in the OT. That it was used for a garbage dump is disputable. So, I prefer to base an interpretation on its scriptural presence than on a disputable claim from outside scripture.

My thought process, essentially, is that UR is not widely held among Christians, but if it started to become so, ET adherents would start ramping up analysis of UR claims and scriptural justifications. If a belief is being propagated without evidence, they can claim that UR is basically making things up to suit their own agenda.

After all, UR believers tend to say that ETers believe something that is not supported by the actual evidence. Is the garbage dump theory supported by evidence?

God said it never entered His mind to burn humans in fire as a sacrfice to Molecch in Gehenna..Yahweh called it an 'abomination'....yet, ETers say God will burn His children forever in Gehenna, in Hell ?..and Jesus, as
God, forgave His enemies who were tormenting Him, from the cross....obviously, ETers are wrong and dont know the character of God.

No disagreement there.

[Seth]

The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year. There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[22] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.

So, the references above have to do with Gehenna as an afterlife place of punishment. The Bible itself warns followers not to go in for Jewish myths. Titus 1:14

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 AD). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[23] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[24] from 1986 holds a similar view.

Yes, this is my point.

[eaglesway]

Topheth, is the place where Josiah brned the bones of the prophets of Baal and turned their altars into a dump.

and once Topheth (place of burning), was in the southeast extremity of the "valley of the son of Hinnom," (Jeremiah 7:31) which is "by the entry of the east gate." (Jeremiah 19:2) Smith's Bible Dictionary

"He(Josiah) also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech." 2 Kings 23:10

"Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze." (Isaiah 30:33)

This is intrsetingly similar to Rev 14:10 "They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."

and 2 Thess 1... "when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction(olethron aionion), away from(apo-coming out of) the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day"

Also interesting, "aionion olethron"... olethron(ruin, destruction) only occurs 4 times in the Bible(NT). One of them is here.....

4When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction(olethron) of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord....(for the sin of incest)

and 1 Cor 3 "If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

In all these cases, the fire takes place in the presence of the Lord.... and suitably, preceeds entrance to the holy city(evry knee shall bow, you have come to Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem) -as Topheth was before the east gate, before the King's garden. Pretty obvious parallels imo.

"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind. "Therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when it will no longer be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place. "The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away."  Jeremiah 7:31-33

We can see in all of these verses, both prophetic metaphors and historical and geographical connections to the Gehenna Jesus spoke of. Whether or not the rabbis echoed this or speculated it is a straw man argument  for ETrs who have not studied the topic out- the connection is right there in Kings, Chronicles and the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah.

More from Smith.......    Afterward it was defiled by idols and polluted by the sacrifices of Baal and the fires of Molech. Then it became the place of abomination, the very gate or pit of hell. The pious kings defiled it and threw down its altars and high places, pouring into it all the filth of the city, till it became the "abhorrence" of Jerusalem."

This from Wikipedia, concerning the controversy

"The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13. He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[1]"

However, it would seem clear this statement(no archaeological or literary evidence) is in error, because according to the scriptures, at the very least periodically, Topheth was exactly what rabbi Kimhi asserted. (also erronoeus in view of the additional rabbinc resources Seth quoted)

[Seth]

Yes it's definitely clear that the scriptures speak of Topeth's history of burning bodies, particularly the evil sacrifices. What's not so clear is the assertion that it was being used as a average city garbage dump in Jesus' day and that that was what he was refering to when he evoked gehenna in his teachings. I've heard that people would have understood his meaning based on their understanding that it was the city dump, but it could have very well just been an ordinary valley at the time and the listeners were just as baffled by Christ's meaning than any other time he spoke in metaphor.

[eaglesway]

Yes it's definitely clear that the scriptures speak of Topeth's history of burning bodies, particularly the evil sacrifices. What's not so clear is the assertion that it was being used as a average city garbage dump in Jesus' day and that that was what he was refering to when he evoked gehenna in his teachings. I've heard that people would have understood his meaning based on their understanding that it was the city dump, but it could have very well just been an ordinary valley at the time and the listeners were just as baffled by Christ's meaning than any other time he spoke in metaphor.

I agree entirely. I think the metaphor Jesus was speaking in the refernces to Gehenna was geared more towards the reformer Josiah, one of the four great kings(David, Jehoshaphat, Hezekiah and Josiah), and the similarity between the immorality of the day and the priests of Baal- but I do think most Hebrews were likely familiar with Topheth and its history as a place of judgment.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

Yeah, as an ETer the arguments I saw from UR that were based on scripture were the most impactful to me.

I do think the average Hebrew had a good working knowledge of scripture, probably moreso than the average Christian today. But, it's funny the Pharisees supposedly had memorized scripture and Jesus told them they didn't know much at all and had to remind them. The human mind is an odd duck.

Not sure if you guys recall your ET days but I remember being on Tentmaker and Gary would bring up a scripture amd I'd look at it and know that I'd seen it several times bit never really had seen it. It would knock me over!

It is definitely possible that some listeners were getting his reference, but I just recall that Jesus came to fulfill that scripture that said people would be listening and not hearing etc. I know that was me anywho.  :doh: :rolllol: