In danger of geheena fire

[darryl]

The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year. There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[22] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.

So, the references above have to do with Gehenna as an afterlife place of punishment. The Bible itself warns followers not to go in for Jewish myths. Titus 1:14

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 AD). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[23] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[24] from 1986 holds a similar view.

Yes, this is my point.

yes, there seems to be some disagreement over what Gehenna actually is/ means..however, the important point in my mind is that there is strong evidence the Jews of Jesus time viewed Gehenna as a place of temporary purgatorial corrective punishment or chastizement...not as a place of eternal torture...and Jesus never corrects them on this..He never uses the actual Greek word for 'neverending' or 'eternal' when speaking of Gehenna.

[Seth]

Yes, the important point being "until they have atoned for their sins." Good point. It wasn't viewed as an eternal thing.

My differentiation on that would be that Jesus already atoned for our sin, but for those who don't care and don't want it, gehenna to me represents the destruction (in the prodigal son sense) that they commit themselves to until they remember the goodness of that atonement and reach out for it.

[jugghead]

I was born and raised in northern Minnesota, I remember as a child, when I would go out and play in the snow and the cold for quite some time ..... when my body started feeling cold I would go inside .... what I hadn't realized was how cold my fingers and toes got ..... the room temperature warmth would proceed to warm my body .... but my fingers and toes were like they were put into extreme heat and were burning

I believe this is a picture of being in the presence of God .... the person has become so cold towards others on this side of death .... that when they are in the presence of God and they feel His Holy Spirit start flowing through them (like blood through our veins) it will seem like they are on fire inside, but in the end, they will know that everyone had to go through this.

This is the advantage I see in going through it before we physically die, it is done gradually over time before we physically die rather than all at once after we die.

The wages of sin is death, we earn death through disobedience, we earn our part in the second death, and we would not get out until the last penny is paid ..... but the gift of God is eternal life and because of this the second death has no power over us.

I believe, and I know others do also, that any burning or destruction pertains to that which is useless (salt that has lost its flavor), which is why most people still believe in hell because in their minds evil men are useless and should be made to suffer (trampled under foot).

my  :2c:

[darryl]

One of the strange things about all of the talk about whether punishment is eternal or not is the fact that if the Lord had wanted to communicate the idea that punishment would be eternal, there are several ways to do this in Greek and make it crystal clear. That did not happen. Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. If it was consistently translated as 'eternal' people would see how ridiculous that idea is.
It is also very instructive to study the writings of the early church fathers and church history to see how prevalent a belief universal salvation was, and then compare the conditions that surrounded the second council at Constantinople where they decided that a confession of belief in an eternal hell was one of the conditions for being accepted into "the church". The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together.

The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH! So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. It will not end, it will just no longer pertain to an 'aion' or time period. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time.
As for Isaiah 66:24, it cannot be referring to eternity, as v.23 which is in the same context states that "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another all flesh shall to worship before Me, says the Lord." (Actually it says "from one new moon to IT'S next", meaning the same new moon one year later)Time is clearly still in view in this context. I also don't think we will be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity.

[darryl]

Yes, the important point being "until they have atoned for their sins." Good point. It wasn't viewed as an eternal thing.

My differentiation on that would be that Jesus already atoned for our sin, but for those who don't care and don't want it, gehenna to me represents the destruction (in the prodigal son sense) that they commit themselves to until they remember the goodness of that atonement and reach out for it.

:thumbsup:

[chester-blowfold]

Do Jewish people look upon Gehenna as a realm of punishment?
I thought there hellish beliefs were more like purgatory (12 month cycle of cleansing)?

[marie glen]

To me it's an iffy thing.. as I've often heard some Jewish beliefs are based on the Talmud, a collection of writings by Jewish scribes(?) etc? As opposed to biblical/the Torah and prophets. And I have heard that in the Talmud are those (tired) Pagan myths of afterlife torment and (imo) the myth of human inherent immortality called immortal soul.. (Immortality w/o Jesus)

[marie glen]

Although I feel quite sure Gehenna Fire is metaphor for earthy judgment - after all armageddon(last war battle) is prophesied to occur there, and it's there which Israel sacrificed babes in fire to Baal-Molech. And is where the notorious dump/landfill where even criminal's bodies were cast - and I see no reason to doubt the rabbi who wrote of it - And in that light it makes perfect sense for Jesus to say, if your eye entices you to sin/ commit a crime, it would be better to cast it into Gehenna fire than your whole body be cast there. And of course we know He was not saying one should actually pluck out their eye.. We know that would not be the actual solution to the sin inthe heart anyway.

But something I've been wondering lately, is are there believers who believe all of scripture is metaphor and myth? For example, there's two camps of atheists, those who believe Jesus did live but was simply a 'good man'. And others who believe He is merely myth. (And Genesis is myth, which even Christian universities teach, so not a huge leap to decide if "the beginning is myth" so be 'the end'.. the return of Jesus, etc.)

I started wondering about this - if there are believers who believe the life of Jesus, etc to be only legend, when I read this commentary recently about Jesus:
- "Christ walked on the restless waters of my mind, yet the Judas of restlessness and ignorance, deluded by the Satan of sense lure, betrayed in me the Christ calmness, the Christ joy, and crucified the divine on the cross of my forgetfulness.."

Which is not bad, is insightful and poetic, but does this commentator, or does this mean Jesus did not walk on water literally, was not literally crucified.. there was no literal Judas..  Now to me, this belief and attitude would be contradicting God's Word which Word is infinitely superior to any commentary or opinion, even teachings about God's Word. Since we frail humans are so prone to extremes, i'm thinking there may indeed be actual believers (other than those so famous Gnostics in Paul, Peter and John's days who were called anti-Christ and the sign of was they did not believe Jesus had come in the flesh/literally. (Also present at the time was a Greek version of life originating somehow through nature / organic from inorganic, from lowest, simplist life forms developing slowly into the higher, and into man.. sound familiar? Also "anti Christ"? Definitely!)
:Peace2:

P.S. - :Chinscratch: All such things remind me of how Jesus said "if it be possible, even the elect/chosen will be led astray.." so prevalent will be lawlessness and untruth, a form of lawlessness(?)

[GodIsLove]

Do Jewish people look upon Gehenna as a realm of punishment?
I thought there hellish beliefs were more like purgatory (12 month cycle of cleansing)?

Yes I read this as well.

[eaglesway]

If "aionion pyr" is the same as Gehenna fire, Jesus uses it in some pretty personal ways. I respectfully disagree that it refers to earthly judgment. Jesus uses references to the Day when He will say "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels" for instance. This being a reference to individual hypocrisy.

Also, "It is better to enter heaven maimed than to go whole into aionian pyr(age-during fire). This being a reference to dealing with personal sin.

In Gehenna, which I agree is a metaphor, an aspect of the judgment of the wicked is clear, "where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched"......

But nowhere does it say forever, and what is the nature of the metaphor? When the scripture says Jesus has fire in His eyes, does that mean His eyes are in pain?What does fire do? It consumes.(Our God is a consuming fire) It transforms. It purifies.

When Jesus speaks of being imprisoned for judging another he says "You shall not escape until you have paid the last penny. What is that last penny a metaphor of? In this context I believe it is a metaphor for repentence and faith towards God. We know that "Every knee shall bow" and, IMO, this is the reason, or function of fire in all these examples in scripture, including the lake of fire. This fire is His word and His presence.

Rev 14:10 says, "And they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"

This fire is the word. Light is fire to darkness. Light burns p the darkness till it no longer exists, "and the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it."

Jesus' words about aionian fire make it appear to me that it will be a difficult experience, even as the trials we who believe now are characterized as fiery and for the purification of faith in Peter, so also, imo, the fires spoken of by Jesus and the prophets are metaphors for that which causes "every hidden thing to come to light" on the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ.

For us who submit to that fire now, the blood of Jesus provides and answer of cleansing and forgivenes that will lead us into that Day rejoicing for His grace.

It is no injustice if those who perpetrated evil and loved darkness rather than light must experience their own trial before they are won out darkness.

Dan. 7

          Until thrones were set up,
            And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
            His vesture was like white snow
            And the hair of His head like pure wool.
            His throne was ablaze with flames,
            Its wheels were a burning fire.

      10"A river of fire was flowing
            And coming out from before Him;
            Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
            And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
            The court sat,
            And the books were opened.

Rev 14

9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

I believe all these scenes are metaphorical for things to broad and deep for us to be able to put in a box and quantify, so I am not trying to do that, but to me it seems that there is clear scriptural evidence in the testimonies of Jesus and the apostles and prophets of personal judgement and an experience to be feared by the wicked. It is an experience that brings about their repentence and reconciliation and it is represented by fire and it is to be feared and avoided, but it is not eternal destruction or annihilation- it is exposure, chastisement, and reasoning- a breaking to create a "broken and a contrite heart"- which has always been the prerequisite for restoration.

"Create in me a clean heart O God and restore a right spirit in me....

O Lord, open my lips,
            That my mouth may declare Your praise.

      16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
            You are not pleased with burnt offering.

      17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
            A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

      18By Your favor do good to Zion;
            Build the walls of Jerusalem.

      19Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
            In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
            Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.

[marie glen]

I agree with all of that EW, but I believe the fire the tares are gathered to, concurrent with Jesus' returning and gathering the wheat, to be Armageddon. And war is literally fiery. But (the) tares, not a gathering to be burned in a hell! :faint: Not even a temporary one. Except for what man unleashes upon Earth. Nothing that new under the sun, just bigger (long sword of the 2nd horseman of the apocalypse? Imo.) Lot of oil there in the Middle East too (which I happen to believe is the 'blood' that comes up as high as a horse's bridle..

Definitely is not a forever thing, lol. And lof at "the Judgment"/Judgment 'Day', I believe to be totally a within thing like we too have experienced. And for death and the grave is annihilation - the ONLY one. :banana:

[chester-blowfold]

A suggestion maybe the blog article is in error? I am not going to debate but such a valley with such history of burning why would it not be used as a trash dump? :Peace2:

I don't know. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that it was though. I just, myself, see that it is not disputable that the valley is referenced in the OT. That it was used for a garbage dump is disputable. So, I prefer to base an interpretation on its scriptural presence than on a disputable claim from outside scripture.

My thought process, essentially, is that UR is not widely held among Christians, but if it started to become so, ET adherents would start ramping up analysis of UR claims and scriptural justifications. If a belief is being propagated without evidence, they can claim that UR is basically making things up to suit their own agenda.

After all, UR believers tend to say that ETers believe something that is not supported by the actual evidence. Is the garbage dump theory supported by evidence?

God said it never entered His mind to burn humans in fire as a sacrfice to Molecch in Gehenna..Yahweh called it an 'abomination'....yet, ETers say God will burn His children forever in Gehenna, in Hell ?..and Jesus, as
God, forgave His enemies who were tormenting Him, from the cross....obviously, ETers are wrong and dont know the character of God.

Some scripture verses would be nice?

[marie glen]

Amen! That’s some great scriptures!

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter My mind

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.

“They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind.” Jeremiah 19:5

In context - They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. 5They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal— something I never commanded or mentioned, nor did it ever enter My mind. 6So behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter..

Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in this way, because they practice for their gods every abomination which the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

2 Kings 16:3
Instead, he walked in the way of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out before the Israelites

Oh! I should’ve found this one first!
- Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.

“Father forgive them..” Luke 23:34

Challenged about the dump, I’d simply say, a Rabbi wrote it and I see no reason to doubt it, besides it makes sense with the verses, and the sense of drama. Better to throw your eye into the dump/Gehenna fires than you commit a violent crime and your whole body perish there!

Or.. it could, and sometimes does, refer to judgment - the one at Jesus’ return, which is earthly (and is results of man’s own doings?) and isn’t “the” Judgment (‘Day’ when “all the ends of earth will remember and turn to the LORD..” ? Ps.22:28)

:Peace2: God bless!