Second resurrection

[micah7:9]

"IMO this was the first fruits of the first fruits, and they ascended with Christ as intercessors, "caught up to His throne"- perhaps the 144,000."   "The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."
But imo all they did was "appear" they showed no power of the throne. Perhaps this was just a representation of what was to come?

And imo how could they be the "first fruits of the first fruits" when.........
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.


"There is nothing in the scripture that says whether they were resurrected temporarily or not. To insist on it either way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge, so it is useless to debate it."
Then imo a good part of our forum is useless, for much goes "way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge...."

"But, I also think the idea that God would put them back in their graves is a little strange. Did their bodies return to decay? Did they return to sheol? Just doesnt seem like God to me. Go from nothing to something and then back to nothing?"   

The way I see it imo, all of it belongs to Him and if it "be strange" so be it. The Bible speaks of no "resurrections" only of a first resurrection or resurrection.

Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust."

[joeteekay]

It is true that there is no conclusive scripture that tells us whether the saints of old who were raised and then either were returned to their graves or in some way went else where (like heaven?).

I lean towards the comments made by Micah concerning the fact that Christ is the first of the firstfruits. IMO opinion there are not two batches of firstfruits. The firstfruits are those saints dead or alive, who are resurrected to eonian life at the return of Christ.

Just because they were dead and their bodies decayed does not say that God could not temporarily bring them back to be seen temporarily as proof of Christ's power to conquer death and quicken those He chooses. Consider Lazarus of Bethany. He died and his body was in a state of decay when Jesus raised him back to mortal life, as He may have done with those described in Mat 27:52-53. Eventually Lazarus also died.

And consider Jairus' daughter, and the widow of Nain's son who died and were brought back to life. So whether those saints of old were returned to their graves remains a point of conjecture.  :scratchhead:

Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

p.s. According to Tishendorf, the first phrase of verse 52 is spurious. With that omission the two verses make more sense.

Also the links  given by WW in post #18 are helpful but inconclusive. Three of the 6 links did not work for me.

So we may not all agree on this topic, we do believe that God saves all.  :friendstu:

[Song91]

The way I am seeing it is that when God makes alive in Christ...in the inner "man" then it is alive...actually even now....(that inner man in Christ).

How then some assign, any more subsequent "death"  (even in that first miracle when He shook the earth and certain graves at His death...seems it was inevitable some even then would rise  because of His accomplishment even over their graves for compassionate reasons perhaps known only to Him then) ....yet even now after one has already been baptised into His death...and raised to this inner man immortal-life...in Christ...
Yeah our bodies of flesh and blood get sick....are frail and vulnerable...get old even...and die.
Death is a separation from all we were attached to on this earth...for a time.
But does death ever mean a separation from Jesus?
I say no.
I hold true that when we are alive in Christ...nothing can separate us from Him. Not even any former thing.....like death ..sorrow...pain.
In Christ, we are more than conquerers and have an inheritance to walk in even while in our mortal bodies.
Mortality is a no contest scenario even here...when alive in Christ.

[sheila]

my  :2c:..what if the firstfruits of the dead are the Spirit..that quickens the mortal body? I can't help

but call to mind all the saints of old looking for that spiritual city not built by human hands in which to

dwell. And Job's word's I know my redeemer lives ...and that in my flesh I shall behold Him....along

with Daniel....you will sleep/rest and stand up for your lot in the last day.  The Lord of the living and the

dead had just entered death/grave.  remembering the prophet that was slain of a lion and put in a grave..

  and when the lying prophet had him disobey God's command..he instructed them to place his

dead body in burial with him...and he come to life when it was done.All the scriptures testify of Him....

...and Samson..slaying a lion with the jawbone of an ass.........out of the carcass of the dead lion

something sweet..the lion of Judah come into Jerusalem to lay down His life riding on the colt of an ass

....firstfruit of the dead...the same spirit that quickens our mortal body...last Adam quickening spirit.

     I believe it was all part of the many signs and miracles..of just whose spirit[God] was dwelling in

  Jesus Christ.  That same spirit poured out on man.....who were reckoned dead in trespass and sin

quickens us to life in Christ[SPIRIT]  just some things to ponder.  I kill and make alive,I wound and heal

.....the strongman/Samson...the Great Shepherd saw the wolf coming and lay down His life so no-one

could snatch them out of His hand. Surely we know not even death can separate us from the Love of

God that was shown unto us in Jesus Christ.

[Song91]

There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ to us.

He accomplished all necessary.

There is a rest in God which is a major part of our inheritance...in Christ.
It is not about us....our triumphs or failures. ( just ask our bro David)  :)

It IS all about how the Lord...has been gracious to each of us...
In the face of all that.
That is why we can love one another. - Having known His mercies to us.
To give that...even in the roughest personal ( even), circumstance.

Even to the death. Remember our precious brother, Stephen.  And his prayer while being stoned to the death of his physical body. What a treasure,  alive in Christ, our brother was... To love and extend unmerited forgiveness to his murderers.

Probably  only because he also knew that depth of the Lord's love to him. 

Can't wait to shake Stephen's hand...embrace him too and kiss his forehead with a holy kiss.

[micah7:9]

"It is true that ALL WILL BE SAVED (I Tim. 2:4 and 4:10 and a hundred other verses like this). However, NOT ALL are saved at the same time. Only those in the FIRST RESURRECTION will inherit the Kingdom of God on earth to reign with Christ. ONLY the "very ELECT."  ONLY those who "OVERCOME." ONLY the "manifested SONS OF GOD."

Eternity in heaven is NOT the "REWARD" of the saved. EVERYONE will eventually be in the realm of heaven with God for eternity. But ONLY those who are accounted worthy to be in the first resurrection will receive a SPECIAL MARVELOUS GLORIOUS REWARD. And what is that glorious reward: "EONIAN [AGE-ABIDING] LIFE, in the KINGDOM OF GOD, ruling and reigning with Christ's for "aions of the aions" until ALL in the heavens and ALL in the earth, and ALL under the earth [the deceased] are ALSO BROUGHT IN GOD'S FAMILY!  It is a special reward to occurs AGES before the rest of humanity receive salvation. This reward is all through the New Testament, but few indeed, seem to see it.

What then happens to the "life" of all those who were given "aionion life." Do they DIE?  Does their life come to AN END?  Just what comes to an end, in THE END? Why, the "AIONS" [THE AGES], of course, come to an end. Do the Saints of the first resurrection then DIE WITH THE AGES? NO!! How so? If the "aions" END, and "aionion life" ENDS, why does not the life of the resurrected Saints ALSO END?  Because God gave them IMMORTALITY AND INCORRUPTION FROM THE BEGINNING OF THEIR RESURRECTION, AND THEY STILL HAVE AND POSSES IT!

"Aionion" life, age-abiding life, the special reward part of the Saints life, ENDS--BUT IMMORTALITY AND INCORRUPTION DOES NOT END. Immortal life can NEVER END BECAUSE IMMORTALITY MEANS: DEATH=LESS=NESS--never to DIE! But in the SECOND resurrection ALL HUMANITY IS GIVEN IMMORTALITY. And it is the very judgment of the white throne and the spiritual, divine, cleaning of God's SPIRITUAL lake of fire than purifies all the wicked and unbelievers, until they ALL bow to the name of Jesus and call Him Lord and Saviour to the Glory of the Father   (Phil.2:10-11)."

Anonymous.

[joeteekay]

Very good IMO.   :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Very good IMO.   :thumbsup:

Me too  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:  :iagree:

[eaglesway]

My only caveat to that is "some who are sure they will won't" and "some who think they wont will" - because(imo) it is about love, not knowledge or zeal.

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[marie glen]

I guess I have a little bit of a problem with that.. To me, if He chose us from the foundation of the world.. the forming, I guess I see it as chance.. if He does it all.. the grace to believe is a gift from Him.. a meaning included in grace is undeserved favor..

Even when successful at something we are still "altogether unprofitable because we only did what He carried out using us".

I guess I see the millennium still more in terms of serving, something we can only minutely do in this present age.. "He that would be great let them serve.."

When the disciples wanted to curse a certain town" for example, not that reigning with Jesus would curse anyone, but I'm thinking of the "you know not what manner of Spirit the work is of" (which I take to be referring to the kingdom).

Even in the heavens and heavenly scene of the elders, the 24 elders throw their crowns (of life) at the feet of He Who is. Ultimately He is all. I'm not a once saved always saved kind of gal, I think any rational creature anywhere, anytime who wanders from Him in any way, begins that journey... away..

I know. If He Almighty uses the term reign, etc, who am I to have reservations about it!?

But if nothing is earned (lest any should boast) then why should the lot of administrators/helpers/workers be any more glorious than any one of those not chosen to come to the faith during this lifetime and serve, administer, help in the age to come (2). A high, very high privilege, yes.

Perhaps it's just my idea of king.. as earth's have been.. "on earth you have kings ruling over you but it is not so amongst you.."

To be judges and teachers.. but it will still be His Spirit in operation.. I guess to be well rounded, I figure reigning with Him is different from how earthly kings are perceived.. and judges. When Israel wanted a king, God was not happy and did not approve of it. So I have to think a ruling or reigning in His kingdom is very much different than it is in man's world.

I think what it is, is I think in His 'Truth Proving Drama of the Ages' he has to have more than one class of character in the cast, and no matter what role I may be assigned I don't think I could seriously consider myself a queen.. Servant, handmaiden, administrator, even.. teacher, helper, judge/ as in able to judge.. the basis of which being love. ...queen? Not unless or until all are, perhaps.. but even then.. I don't believe their can be life (immortality) which is not in essence, in God, or God is that life. And He can withdraw it at any time. If we were immortal we would be co-God with Him? We may put it on , and have it, but it is still surely all His..? A sort of paradox.

If you've read this far (my post) thanks for bearing with my stumbling/babbling trying to express this thought, or work my way through it. :laughing7: ...special status.. just a role in acts of His play/production.. I think that's how I see it. I'm on this tiny iPhone today as my granddaughter needed to take my netbook to school (sigh) or I'd shorten this post of some of its rambling(ness) :laughing7:
:Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I agree that we are chosen and elect, but I hav known many Christians who were sure they were overcomers and I didnt see a smidgeon of love in them. I think on this level, "life", we are not given to know what we shall be, so we seek, we wrestle, we obey, we strive, not as if we can do anything in ourselves, but because thast i what the one who has chosen us has called us to do, according to the measure of faith we hav received (to the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not even what he has shall be taken away).. So Paul , said
For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

[micah7:9]

I agree that we are chosen and elect, but I hav known many Christians who were sure they were overcomers and I didnt see a smidgeon of love in them. I think on this level, "life", we are not given to know what we shall be, so we seek, we wrestle, we obey, we strive, not as if we can do anything in ourselves, but because thast i what the one who has chosen us has called us to do, according to the measure of faith we hav received (to the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not even what he has shall be taken away).. So Paul , said
For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

:dsunny:

[marie glen]

   Amen

[jugghead]

I may cause some trouble with this so I apologize beforehand ..... I only see one resurrection, Christ was only raised once .... here is why I believe it .... the word "first" means foremost taken from a word that means "in front of", "prior to" with both words having "before" as part of the meaning ..... so I understand Rev 20:5-6 as having their part before the resurrection .... with that part being "the death of the flesh" for only after the death of the flesh can we be resurrected ..... exactly what Christ went through

[WhiteWings]

Jesus was the first  of the First Fruits.

There are 3 harvests. Jesus was the very first of the first harvest.

[eaglesway]

No problem jugghed.

Our differences on areas of peripheral doctrine do not affect our agreement on the fact that all shall be gathered into one in Christ. God shall be all in all.

i belive there are four harvests. Christ and those who were gathered with Him at His resurrection. Those who are His at His appearing. Those who are in the book of life at the Great White Throne, and those who come out of the lake of fire.

White Wings believes there are three.

You believe there is one.

In a sense there is one great harvest. Ultimately God will be "all in all".

We all believe Jesus, who said... "I am the resurrection and the life"....and...."If I am lifted up from the earth I wil draw all men unto me" :o)

[WhiteWings]

For those interested in the topic some basics on this site (use search function: harvest) http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/chapter-6-god-s-three-harvest-festivals/

Two or three harvests is a little more tricky but I think this verse clearly shows there are at least two.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

If there is a first resurrection there is at least a second.
If the rest didn't live for another 1000 years that means some do live during that 1000 years. That's at least 2 groups.

:2c:

[marie glen]

For those interested in the topic some basics on this site (use search function: harvest) http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/chapter-6-god-s-three-harvest-festivals/

Two or three harvests is a little more tricky but I think this verse clearly shows there are at least two.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

If there is a first resurrection there is at least a second.
If the rest didn't live for another 1000 years that means so do live in that 1000 years. That's at least 2 groups.

:2c:

:iagree: :iagree:

I think there very surely must be at the least the two resurrections.. what with, as you've said, there being what's called a "first" resurrection and the verse "the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are ended.."

..and why resurrect? If ET or EA were true?

Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" and many jump to the conclusion that this means 'after death all hope is lost'. When, imo, I think it simply means if one dies in their sins, they will rise still in their sins.. (Surely this is all God's grand drama - both life and the Revelation scroll-which is the 'end'/conclusion of the story?/all important lesson?)

The Kingdom is like three measures of meal (dough)..?..

And those verses in 1 Corinthians 15 about "as in Adam, all die, so in Christ shall all live, but each in their own order, Christ the Firstfruits, then those that are His at His coming.. and then the end when He hands over the Kingdom to the Father, so that He may be "all in all".. Again 3? I can't help but think so! But so easily missed (dismissed?) ..overlooked!

..Looks like an interesting link.. I'm off to check it out..

[micah7:9]

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.

[WhiteWings]

..Looks like an interesting link.. I'm off to check it out..

Obviously not everyone will agree with everything and they don't have to. I just want to suggest that everyone interested in this topic for him/herself considers why Jesus so often kept talking about farming things like harvest, sowing, plowing, weeds, harvest, pruning, etc, etc.
Personally I think He wasn't showing off His knowledge about farming. I think that having the mind/knowledge of an ancient farmer may help to understand just that extra bit/depth of the Bible. Even in Revelation it continues with wine presses, harvesting angels and threshing.




http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/harvests.htm
3 links in red

[marie glen]

I never realized that! I've thought since the Spring Holy Days - Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits - (are HIM) and were fulfilled by His 1st advent, then surely the Autumn Holy Days - Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles - will be fulfilled by His long 2nd advent.. making judgement 'day' (surprise!) to be that 'national'/collective day of Atonement..

But this, is even clearer! :banana: :dsunny: 3 harvests - Passover - Pentecost - Tabernacles

And these, to me, go along with 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then, those who belong to Christ, when he comes. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has destroyed every dominion, every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet . 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death . 27 For "he has put everything in subjection under his feet." Now when it says that "everything has been put in subjection," it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. 28 And when everything is subjected to him ,  then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected  everything to him, so that God may be  all in all."

THE 3 HARVESTS! -

Passover - Christ the Firstfruits

Pentecost - those who belong to Christ, when he comes

Tabernacles - when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father.. so that God may be  all in all


I've always really liked how Firstfruits, closely related to Passover, both being in the "Spring Feasts", was in part a consecration of the entire harvest to God.. :cloud9:

[marie glen]

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.

Isn't verse 5 referring to verse 4? :Chinscratch: that's how i've always read it anyway :dontknow: :smile:
4- I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Then it goes on speaking about that first group? -

6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison..

10 and the adversary.. was cast into the lake of fire..

11 And I saw a great white throne..

12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened..


13 and (thus did?) the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; (Young's Literal) - when the thousand years are finished whereas, the other crowd rose at Jesus' return...
   :dontknow: :Peace2:

[WhiteWings]

I'm kinda sure you spotted it but...  :LH:
Passover - Christ the Firstfruits

Plural. It's not saying Christ IS the firstfruitS.
He surely is part of it. He's the very first of that harvest. But that first fruit harvest is more plentiful than 1 person.
I understand it as "Christ and the (other) first fruits"

Matt 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks split,
Matt 27:52 and the sepulchers were opened, and many bodies of the sanctified who have been asleep arose.



It's so easy to overlook things but if you zoom in a bit you will spot many references to multiple harvests.
You spotted most, maybe all and just forgot to underline "But each in his own order"
For groups to have an order there must be at least 2.

I think Passover isn't an harvest. First Fruits is the harvest. In a way Jesus was sown in the tomb at Passover day and harvested 3 days later.