Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
There must be a second. Can I get some help as to where to find it? Thanks
hi Micah..
From Revelation 20, verses 4 and 5 - "..they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.."
And from verses 20:7-21:1 - "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive... ..But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown." {not persons, imo, but an institution-world beast (13:1-10, not 11-18) and a prevalent last days belief-the false prophet, began as a man?} "11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 21 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"
Good point Micah. This has really confused many people. More to say about this but we know there are only 2 resurrections. One when Christ returns and eventually the resurrection to judgement. Tishendorf recognised that verse as spurious.
One of many SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
The one below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf's notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209
Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished* should not be there. :banana:
Quote from: joeteekay on October 25, 2016, 01:15:55 AM
Good point Micah. This has really confused many people. More to say about this but we know there are only 2 resurrections. One when Christ returns and eventually the resurrection to judgement. Tishendorf recognised that verse as spurious.
One of many SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
The one below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf's notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209
Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished* should not be there. :banana:
There is some interesting conspiracy surrounding the Sinaitic version (http://www.sinaiticus.net/uspensky.html). I personally don't trust it or the Vatican, so I am more inclined to think it should be there.
IMO there are two general resurrections. One at the end of the age at the second coming. The second at the end of the thousand years. The first is for the faithful in Christ. The second, as marie glenn pointed out- for "the rest of the dead". These would be the dead from all the ages who were not in the first resurrection.
There was also resurrection when Jesus was raised,
"The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."(Mt 27). IMO this was the first fruits of the first fruits, and they ascended with Christ as intercessors, "caught up to His throne"- perhaps the 144,000.
Some people teach that the second resurrection is for "unbelievers" only. I disagree with that, because the fact that those"whose names were not written in the book of life" were cast into the lake of fire leaves the logical assumption that those whose names were written would not be cast into the lake of fire, but rather entered into life aionian. IMO, there have been people throughout the ages who, having niether the law or the gospel, were a "law unto themselves"- having listened to the "law written on their hearts" and having received the testimony that God is love by the witness of His divine nature and eternal power that is displayed through "the things He has made".
"1For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge....
Paul speaks of this in Romans 2...
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Paul had already declared in Romas 1
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
People who lived before Christ were not without an imprint of God in their hearts. Since the beginning God has written the testimony of His divine nature and eternal power upon the hearts of every person, some respond to that inner law and some do not.
"...who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel"
On that Day, which imo is not a date but a Day, when "The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds"...which coordinates with Rom 2, their conscience either accusing or excusing them as they stand before the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face is like the sunshining in its strength and out of whose mouth proceeds a two edged sword.
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Heb 4
IMO the Great White Throne is for this purpose, that "every hidden thing will be brought to light"' and so shall it be for everyone who stands before Him, from every age from Adam to Gog Magog.
It says, in Rev 20:14, "Then death and the grave will be thrown into the lake of fire"... which integrates with 1 Cor 15 - every adversary will be subjected.
Some see this as an experience "outside of time", some see it as a period of time. I have no opinion on that except to say the principle of fire in all the srcipures is that it purges the "threshing floor" (Mat 3), separates out all "the alloys"(Malachi 3), consumes the "wood, hay and stubble"(1 Cor 3) which again, goes to the conscience of man and the "trying of the reins and the hearts" that occurs throughout our existence until we are "gathered into one in Christ Jesus".
Paul says in Acts 17....
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Notice where Paul begins...
"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth..."
This is consistent with his statements in Romans 1
Then he says,
"And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being"
IMO Paul is reminding them of things already in evidence since the beginning. God has appointed the times and places of every life.... in every age as the threshing floor of Christ- the separation of the chaff off of each person the result of the beating of the winnowing fan(experiences and trials) in which every conscience is tested and prooved- assayed, so to speak as gold tried in the fire.
The end result is that every soul will have been beaten, separated and purged of chaff as a grain of wheat suitable to be "gathered into the barn"(all things gathered into one in Christ Eph 1) at the end of the ages, when God becomes all in all and there is no longer any need for separation, because the blood of Christ's cross has reconciled everything in heaven and earth, and every knee has bowed in "heaven, on earth, and under the earth"(Phil 2).
:thumbs up: :thumbsup:
When I think of the white throne 'day' of judgment, I always think of two verses, when Jesus said to the Pharisees the queen of the south will rise up in judgment (words of judgment) against this generation for they do not believe yet one greater than Solomon had come to them - poorly paraphrased..
And when He said woe to to you, Chorazin, etc. cities would be more harshly judged than Sodom and Gomorrah on day of judgment for rejecting Him..
But I guess the reason I think of them is because they clearly (imo) show that the 2nd resurrection of all those not yet born again/followers of Jesus, would not be simply awakened from the grave and cast into the (purifying, correcting) lof.
Quote from: joeteekay on October 25, 2016, 01:15:55 AM
Good point Micah. This has really confused many people. More to say about this but we know there are only 2 resurrections. One when Christ returns and eventually the resurrection to judgement. Tishendorf recognised that verse as spurious.
One of many SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
The one below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf's notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209
Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished* should not be there. :banana:
I agree, thank you.
This imo cannot be true, ""The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."(Mt 27). IMO this was the first fruits of the first fruits, and they ascended with Christ as intercessors, "caught up to His throne"- perhaps the 144,000."
years ago I had read that in Aramaic or Hebrew it read...along with the end of the 1000 year reign,,,,,,,,, satan was released to go forth..etc to deceive. to me the big clue of the 2nd resurrection is it is of good/evil tokogae...law written for
the lawless one.....=......death....grace is TOL..[love keeps no account of the injury]the very REASON CHRIST CAME..the commandment was unto life
so...as I reckon the deceiver doing lying signs[casting out demons..in His name..to those who shrink back unto the law..becoming twice dead. I read grace/TOL as free gift....and good/evil with it's judgement...law for lawless one.
those that accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of satan...He asked ..by whom do your sons cast them out[lying signs?] works based righteousness /salvation versus Grace works of God,Jesus and Holy spirit as free gift.[considered Pharoah's magicians working signs in competition with Moses here]
........ the law is good..if used lawfully.[..and evidently there is a possibility to use it unlawfully]............as a tutor to lead us to Christ or show sin in flesh
is condemned in all men. make the tree good or make the tree evil.....tokogae is good if it make man cognizant of His lack and need of Grace/salvation/messiah/forgiveness,deliverance from the wicked one and healing.
..and not holding His trespasses against him
..it shows God alone is good...Jesus said..why do you call me good?
good as a tutour to lead to Christ... the accuser that accuses them night and day. so.an 'angel' fell from his position and loosed this accuser on earth and heaven[whater ye bind on earth is bound in heaven..etc] instead of binding him through grace.[where sin abounds grace abounds even more/or where sin abounds we shrink back to law/because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool]
now the Grace free gift goes like this..heeding and following the Holy spirit..abstain from idolatry/blood/fornication etc..will keep you spiritually healthy..but if anyone sins or is sick..call the elders..and if he sinned he will be healed....someone that
won't hear..is to be handed over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..IN ORDER THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED..not to kill the spirit..but the flesh..flesh and blood can NOT inherit..and God has said 'I will not always strive with man in that he is flesh. sin in the flesh has always been condemned..but the life in the spirit is a free gift..for this reason also we reckon our body good as dead. His words of life are spirit.
what was done in the body to me is speaking of the spiritual body...not the fleshly body.[it was already judged/condemned under law/sin in flesh condemned]......a cup of water of life?,clothe the naked?/Paul said when divested of his flesh he did not desire to be unclothed; what ye have done unto one of these least ones..........
ye have done unto me. He who teaches error shall be called least in the Kingdom/as one born prematurely,he reckoned it.
the least in the kingdom...ignorance..Saul/Paul comes to mind..do you condemn their spirit or ascertain that all sin/error in the flesh is already condemned and the free gift of life by spirit is given unto all men? did the law of Love reign in the spirit?if we are to feed/clothe the fleshly body..how much more the spirit of man?
many are sick not discerning the body...........and asleep....all ten slept........ a crushed spirit He will not despize..Christ stone of stumbling...broken or fall on crushing.....broken pottery vessels of flesh....and He broke the bread..but I will not always be wrathful LEST THE VERY SPIRIT FAIL....
there's an end of it...rod of iron on a pot[vessel] clay vessel...what's the vessel or wrath fitted for destruction but sin in the flesh which has already been condemned/flesh and blood can NOT please Him or inherit.
does the scripture say..judged for what they did in the body or flesh.? reap what you sow..corruption of the flesh/life in the spirit....sown in corruption/raised in incorruption..mortal/immortality...as all have bore the image of the corruptible,
so,too shall all bear the image of the incorruptible..
thinking out loud..........
Quote from: marie glen on October 25, 2016, 04:02:08 PM
:thumbs up: :thumbsup:
When I think of the white throne 'day' of judgment, I always think of two verses, when Jesus said to the Pharisees the queen of the south will rise up in judgment (words of judgment) against this generation for they do not believe yet one greater than Solomon had come to them - poorly paraphrased..
And when He said woe to to you, Chorazin, etc. cities would be more harshly judged than Sodom and Gomorrah on day of judgment for rejecting Him..
But I guess the reason I think of them is because they clearly (imo) show that the 2nd resurrection of all those not yet born again/followers of Jesus, would not be simply awakened from the grave and cast into the (purifying, correcting) lof.
Good point on that I never noticed. Cool :o)
I have a different view concerning a few comments made in post #4 and post#7 concerning the rising of those who slept at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 27: 51-52 we are told that "the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the sleeping (dead) saints arose (G1453 - were roused), and, coming out of the tombs after Christs resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many". This, is one of the supernatural signs that accompanied the death and resurrection power of our Lord. It gives us a brief view of Gods power. The bodies of the saints arose (were roused) to indicate that incredible power. It does not use the word resurrected as to this phenomenon, nor the words made immortal.
None were made immortal, for Christ the Firstfruit alone has this honour. They will immortalised at His future presence, no more to return to death (1 Cor. 15:23). Yes they were raised but returned to the grave (unseen) awaiting the future resurrection (IMO)
.
Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Quote from: joeteekay on October 26, 2016, 10:32:26 PM
I have a different view concerning a few comments made in post #4 and post#7 concerning the rising of those who slept at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 27: 51-52 we are told that "the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the sleeping (dead) saints arose (G1453 - were roused), and, coming out of the tombs after Christs resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many". This, is one of the supernatural signs that accompanied the death and resurrection power of our Lord. It gives us a brief view of Gods power. The bodies of the saints arose (were roused) to indicate that incredible power. It does not use the word resurrected as to this phenomenon, nor the words made immortal.
None were made immortal, for Christ the Firstfruit alone has this honour. They will immortalised at His future presence, no more to return to death (1 Cor. 15:23). Yes they were raised but returned to the grave (unseen) awaiting the future resurrection (IMO)
.
Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
:thumbsup: :Peace2:
I do think everyone is struggling to see that everything is HELD IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE , There is nothing outside of HIM
HE BEING THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING , Nothing is made without Him John 11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...2He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men....
THE HEAD /AUTHORITY firstfruits of what the HOLY SPIRIT [ the head napkin all by its self of its own place John 20 Young's Literal Translation
and the napkin that was upon his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but apart, having been folded up, in one place;
the Son of man has no place to lay his head luke 9 58 symbolic of the Authority/HEADSHIP becoming a whole LIVING body as it is being formed and Made ALIVE TO THE LIVING GOD now
Col 2
And as far as David goes it it his tomb !! not David , he is in CHRIST , dead or Living that is Gods holy work ...
just as it is written so shall these things be LIVING WORDS OF LIFE FREELY .......
We are to love everyone,,,,, where they are at in their faith ....
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2016, 11:10:15 PM
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
There must be a second. Can I get some help as to where to find it? Thanks
There is the first resurrection being those in Christ everything is in CHRIST dead or alive it is in Christ
but Blessed is he whom is in the first resurrection [IN CHRIST ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE ] because the second death will have no power over you , no harm done
I understand now, there is one resurrection, 1Th 4:15-18 and Act 24:15 Thanks
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 26, 2016, 10:46:28 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 26, 2016, 10:32:26 PM
I have a different view concerning a few comments made in post #4 and post#7 concerning the rising of those who slept at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 27: 51-52 we are told that "the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the sleeping (dead) saints arose (G1453 - were roused), and, coming out of the tombs after Christs resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many". This, is one of the supernatural signs that accompanied the death and resurrection power of our Lord. It gives us a brief view of Gods power. The bodies of the saints arose (were roused) to indicate that incredible power. It does not use the word resurrected as to this phenomenon, nor the words made immortal.
None were made immortal, for Christ the Firstfruit alone has this honour. They will immortalised at His future presence, no more to return to death (1 Cor. 15:23). Yes they were raised but returned to the grave (unseen) awaiting the future resurrection (IMO)
.
Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
:thumbsup: :Peace2:
While I respect your opinion, there is no evidence to the effect that "none were made mortal". Were they zombies? Dead bodies walking around? No.
They were alive, 9n the body,
who had been dead, and not dead for a few days, but rather saints who had died over the 2000+ year history of Israel.
When someone who has been dead for 500 years is raised out of his tomb alive, in the body- IMO, thats a resurrection. :Peace2:
I see those as forming the head [AUTHORITY .. you will be with me Judging the 12 tribes of Israel]
Abraham Isaac and Jacob , the GOD OF THE LIVING
I can see Moses in that number
Mark 12 The Sadducees and the Resurrection
...26And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him,
'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
You are badly mistaken!
28Now one of the scribes had come up and heard their debate. Noticing how well Jesus had answered them, he asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"...
Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, "You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Luke 20:38
He is not God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all are alive."
GOD will bring with Him 1 THESS 4 The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,
so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep....come before in order or position.JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD /WORD OF GOD has always had the prememenice the fact of surpassing all others; superiority.
This power is never seen by mortal mankind for his mind is the last enemy being death to defeat by the LIGHT OF CHRIST coming to him ...
It is only by the HOLY SPIRIT/ seven spirits 7 eyes of God can we see anything close to the TRUTH . [IMO]
Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
THIS HOLY SPIRIT Is the teacher John 14 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit !! no man teach you 1 John 2 Continue in Him
...26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught. 28And now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming....
...25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. 27Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid....
Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
John 1:33
I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
John 2:22
After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--
John 14:25
All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you.
John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about Me.
John 16:7
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:13
However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
Acts 1:4
And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss.
The very testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy , that the children born again of God carry in their bosom ... heart
Quote from: eaglesway on October 27, 2016, 08:20:06 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 26, 2016, 10:46:28 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 26, 2016, 10:32:26 PM
I have a different view concerning a few comments made in post #4 and post#7 concerning the rising of those who slept at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 27: 51-52 we are told that "the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the sleeping (dead) saints arose (G1453 - were roused), and, coming out of the tombs after Christs resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many". This, is one of the supernatural signs that accompanied the death and resurrection power of our Lord. It gives us a brief view of Gods power. The bodies of the saints arose (were roused) to indicate that incredible power. It does not use the word resurrected as to this phenomenon, nor the words made immortal.
None were made immortal, for Christ the Firstfruit alone has this honour. They will immortalised at His future presence, no more to return to death (1 Cor. 15:23). Yes they were raised but returned to the grave (unseen) awaiting the future resurrection (IMO)
.
Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
:thumbsup: :Peace2:
While I respect your opinion, there is no evidence to the effect that "none were made mortal". Were they zombies? Dead bodies walking around? No.
They were alive, 9n the body, who had been dead, and not dead for a few days, but rather saints who had died over the 2000+ year history of Israel.
When someone who has been dead for 500 years is raised out of his tomb alive, in the body- IMO, thats a resurrection. :Peace2:
:dsunny: you are Spirit the flesh profits NOTHING !!
John 6 Many Disciples Turn Back
...62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?
63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 However, there are some of you who do not believe."
THE RESURRECTION IS ALWAYS ,past , present and future for many being made ALIVE in Christ ....
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2016, 11:10:15 PM
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
There must be a second. Can I get some help as to where to find it? Thanks
Maybe even 3 :banana:
http://www.thewayprepared.com/studies/3-foldharvest.html
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/threeharvests.htm
http://www.theopenscroll.com/beyond_veil/appendices/resurrectionSequence.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20one.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20two.htm
http://www.wor.org/Books/t/three_deaths_and_three_resurrect%20three.htm
Original thread (http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/annihilationism-vs-universalism/msg164087/#msg164087)
man's mortal body/flesh can not inherit/live..due to good/evil..it is the 'son of man" spirit that is raised immortal and lives. flesh and blood[good/evil can not inherit.]body of death flesh/good/evil
in the judgement/thrones for those resurrected in spirit...[son of man in heaven] as part of the just spirits of men made perfect.....they observe the good/evil drama that is played out on earth in the
lives of mortal men[man still dwelling in flesh] and make true judgement......they observe the powers and principalities that mortal men war with daily in their flesh[carnal sold unto sin body of death=good/evil
mix[Godmade man good[Genesis..evil entered the flesh when Eve seduced/Adam partook through disobedience of tokogae. deliverance is through the promise spirit/seed of Christ/last Adam quickening spirit that is raised up out of the mortal body of death.
our flesh body is like a vehicle for the spirit.......the good seed[spirit] that God sowed in the earth..
Jesus said...these words are spirit and life...ye have no life in yourselves...the promised spirit/seed
is the resurrected lifted up into immortality spirit of man. the 'good' spirit in man 'could not live' when
evil entered his flesh as sin[good/evil mix=dead] the good that I desire to do, I can not/that which I hate
I do..who will deliver me from this body of death?..that is mortal man sold unto sin/death
sown in corruption[flesh of good/evil mix]
when man's flesh dies[his spirit returns unto the Father] but thewicked/evil spirit is cast out of the grave like an abominable branch...it is not even afforded the honour of lying in rest with the dead body of man[no rest for the wicked] this is the only resurrection satan and his evil spirits get..and they go forth to
war against some other mortal man[seek a house in which to dwell]
man's spirit raised up in incorruptibility into a new celestial flesh body of spirit..is not harmed of the LOF 2nd death..that is prepared for satan and his.Tares are burned in the end...though the Lord leaves them be and let's them continue until harvest. even the wicked one of whom we pray to be delivered from
and groan within ourselves for the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
so,when the Books are opened and the resurrected ones in heaven judge what is done in the flesh/body
of man..as unto good which is of God's work..and the evil which is of the wicked one..they understand
how man could not live unto God/and flesh and blood could not please Him...and agree that an incorruptible celestial body raised in power of which the fullness of the nature of God could be expressed
is much more desirable.New Heavens and new earth[spirit of man[son of man] in only which righteousness
dwells...God's nature/image is fully expressed[manifested] in His likeness of the new creation.[perfect]
at present..we have the token..of the fullness of the spirit that is promised..in the midst of this body
of corruption/death that surrounds us. While awaiting that upward call we are as the two witnesses
whose bodies lay [as good as]dead in the streets[if He had not left us a seed we would have been as Sodom and gomorrah]
Quote from: eaglesway on October 27, 2016, 08:20:06 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 26, 2016, 10:46:28 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on October 26, 2016, 10:32:26 PM
I have a different view concerning a few comments made in post #4 and post#7 concerning the rising of those who slept at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Matthew 27: 51-52 we are told that "the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the sleeping (dead) saints arose (G1453 - were roused), and, coming out of the tombs after Christs resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many". This, is one of the supernatural signs that accompanied the death and resurrection power of our Lord. It gives us a brief view of Gods power. The bodies of the saints arose (were roused) to indicate that incredible power. It does not use the word resurrected as to this phenomenon, nor the words made immortal.
None were made immortal, for Christ the Firstfruit alone has this honour. They will immortalised at His future presence, no more to return to death (1 Cor. 15:23). Yes they were raised but returned to the grave (unseen) awaiting the future resurrection (IMO)
.
Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
:thumbsup: :Peace2:
While I respect your opinion, there is no evidence to the effect that "none were made mortal". Were they zombies? Dead bodies walking around? No.
They were alive, 9n the body, who had been dead, and not dead for a few days, but rather saints who had died over the 2000+ year history of Israel.
When someone who has been dead for 500 years is raised out of his tomb alive, in the body- IMO, thats a resurrection. :Peace2:
Temporary for that particular moment.
Quote from: rosered on October 27, 2016, 01:47:16 AM
I do think everyone is struggling to see that everything is HELD IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE , There is nothing outside of HIM
HE BEING THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING , Nothing is made without Him John 11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...2He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men....
THE HEAD /AUTHORITY firstfruits of what the HOLY SPIRIT [ the head napkin all by its self of its own place John 20 Young's Literal Translation
and the napkin that was upon his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but apart, having been folded up, in one place;
the Son of man has no place to lay his head luke 9 58 symbolic of the Authority/HEADSHIP becoming a whole LIVING body as it is being formed and Made ALIVE TO THE LIVING GOD now
Col 2
And as far as David goes it it his tomb !! not David , he is in CHRIST , dead or Living that is Gods holy work ...
just as it is written so shall these things be LIVING WORDS OF LIFE FREELY .......
We are to love everyone,,,,, where they are at in their faith ....
How can this be, "And as far as David goes it it his tomb !! not David , he is in CHRIST ..." Or do I disregard Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Quote from: rosered on October 27, 2016, 12:49:10 PM
I see those as forming the head [AUTHORITY .. you will be with me Judging the 12 tribes of Israel]
Abraham Isaac and Jacob , the GOD OF THE LIVING
I can see Moses in that number
Mark 12 The Sadducees and the Resurrection
...26And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him,
'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
You are badly mistaken!
28Now one of the scribes had come up and heard their debate. Noticing how well Jesus had answered them, he asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"...
Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, "You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Luke 20:38
He is not God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all are alive."
GOD will bring with Him 1 THESS 4 The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,
so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep....come before in order or position.JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD /WORD OF GOD has always had the prememenice the fact of surpassing all others; superiority.
This power is never seen by mortal mankind for his mind is the last enemy being death to defeat by the LIGHT OF CHRIST coming to him ...
It is only by the HOLY SPIRIT/ seven spirits 7 eyes of God can we see anything close to the TRUTH . [IMO]
Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
THIS HOLY SPIRIT Is the teacher John 14 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit !! no man teach you 1 John 2 Continue in Him
...26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught. 28And now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming....
...25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you. 27Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid....
Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
John 1:33
I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
John 2:22
After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--
John 14:25
All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you.
John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about Me.
John 16:7
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:13
However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
Acts 1:4
And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss.
The very testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy , that the children born again of God carry in their bosom ... heart
"27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Rom 14:9 For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living."
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 27, 2016, 06:35:35 PM
Quote from: rosered on October 27, 2016, 01:47:16 AM
I do think everyone is struggling to see that everything is HELD IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE , There is nothing outside of HIM
HE BEING THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING , Nothing is made without Him John 11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...2He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men....
THE HEAD /AUTHORITY firstfruits of what the HOLY SPIRIT [ the head napkin all by its self of its own place John 20 Young's Literal Translation
and the napkin that was upon his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but apart, having been folded up, in one place;
the Son of man has no place to lay his head luke 9 58 symbolic of the Authority/HEADSHIP becoming a whole LIVING body as it is being formed and Made ALIVE TO THE LIVING GOD now
Col 2
And as far as David goes it it his tomb !! not David , he is in CHRIST , dead or Living that is Gods holy work ...
just as it is written so shall these things be LIVING WORDS OF LIFE FREELY .......
We are to love everyone,,,,, where they are at in their faith ....
How can this be, "And as far as David goes it it his tomb !! not David , he is in CHRIST ..." Or do I disregard Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act_2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Exactly , Only the Christ in you rises up into Gods glory ,
we all start from that very seed which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory
I know that if Christ had not left us His incorruptible seed [descendants offspring / Word of God we would have become like Sodom, we would have resembled Gomorrah." as well!!
Remember you get a new name and nature ! lest we forget the importance of this meaning ...........
28For the Lord will carry out His sentence on the earth with thoroughness and decisiveness."
29It is just as Isaiah predicted: "Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us, descendants a person, plant, or animal that is descended from a particular ancestor.Heritage
we would have become like Sodom, we would have resembled Gomorrah."
In human terms we see everything separated and divided , but in the Spirit everything is as of ONE One body ONE GOD, ONE SPIRIT ONE HOPE .ALL from ONE LIVIVNG WORD & SPIRIT OF TRUTH ...
Ephesians 4:4-6New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 There
is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
It is ok , we are to always Love everyone where they are at in the Lord and it is always His call , not ours ... :HeartThrob: Blessings and thank you for the opportunity to speak in His peace bro
There is nothing in the scripture that says whether they were resurrected temporarily or not. To insist on it either way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge, so it is useless to debate it.
But, I also think the idea that God would put them back in their graves is a little strange. Did their bodies return to decay? Did they return to sheol? Just doesnt seem like God to me. Go from nothing to something and then back to nothing? :laughing7:
"IMO this was the first fruits of the first fruits, and they ascended with Christ as intercessors, "caught up to His throne"- perhaps the 144,000." "The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."
But imo all they did was "appear" they showed no power of the throne. Perhaps this was just a representation of what was to come?
And imo how could they be the "first fruits of the first fruits" when.........
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
"There is nothing in the scripture that says whether they were resurrected temporarily or not. To insist on it either way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge, so it is useless to debate it."
Then imo a good part of our forum is useless, for much goes "way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge...."
"But, I also think the idea that God would put them back in their graves is a little strange. Did their bodies return to decay? Did they return to sheol? Just doesnt seem like God to me. Go from nothing to something and then back to nothing?"
The way I see it imo, all of it belongs to Him and if it "be strange" so be it. The Bible speaks of no "resurrections" only of a first resurrection or resurrection.
Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust."
It is true that there is no conclusive scripture that tells us whether the saints of old who were raised and then either were returned to their graves or in some way went else where (like heaven?).
I lean towards the comments made by Micah concerning the fact that Christ is the first of the firstfruits. IMO opinion there are not two batches of firstfruits. The firstfruits are those saints dead or alive, who are resurrected to eonian life at the return of Christ.
Just because they were dead and their bodies decayed does not say that God could not temporarily bring them back to be seen temporarily as proof of Christ's power to conquer death and quicken those He chooses. Consider Lazarus of Bethany. He died and his body was in a state of decay when Jesus raised him back to mortal life, as He may have done with those described in Mat 27:52-53. Eventually Lazarus also died.
And consider Jairus' daughter, and the widow of Nain's son who died and were brought back to life. So whether those saints of old were returned to their graves remains a point of conjecture. :scratchhead:
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
p.s. According to Tishendorf, the first phrase of verse 52 is spurious. With that omission the two verses make more sense.
Also the links given by WW in post #18 are helpful but inconclusive. Three of the 6 links did not work for me.
So we may not all agree on this topic, we do believe that God saves all. :friendstu:
The way I am seeing it is that when God makes alive in Christ...in the inner "man" then it is alive...actually even now....(that inner man in Christ).
How then some assign, any more subsequent "death" (even in that first miracle when He shook the earth and certain graves at His death...seems it was inevitable some even then would rise because of His accomplishment even over their graves for compassionate reasons perhaps known only to Him then) ....yet even now after one has already been baptised into His death...and raised to this inner man immortal-life...in Christ...
Yeah our bodies of flesh and blood get sick....are frail and vulnerable...get old even...and die.
Death is a separation from all we were attached to on this earth...for a time.
But does death ever mean a separation from Jesus?
I say no.
I hold true that when we are alive in Christ...nothing can separate us from Him. Not even any former thing.....like death ..sorrow...pain.
In Christ, we are more than conquerers and have an inheritance to walk in even while in our mortal bodies.
Mortality is a no contest scenario even here...when alive in Christ.
my :2c:..what if the firstfruits of the dead are the Spirit..that quickens the mortal body? I can't help
but call to mind all the saints of old looking for that spiritual city not built by human hands in which to
dwell. And Job's word's I know my redeemer lives ...and that in my flesh I shall behold Him....along
with Daniel....you will sleep/rest and stand up for your lot in the last day. The Lord of the living and the
dead had just entered death/grave. remembering the prophet that was slain of a lion and put in a grave..
and when the lying prophet had him disobey God's command..he instructed them to place his
dead body in burial with him...and he come to life when it was done.All the scriptures testify of Him....
...and Samson..slaying a lion with the jawbone of an ass.........out of the carcass of the dead lion
something sweet..the lion of Judah come into Jerusalem to lay down His life riding on the colt of an ass
....firstfruit of the dead...the same spirit that quickens our mortal body...last Adam quickening spirit.
I believe it was all part of the many signs and miracles..of just whose spirit[God] was dwelling in
Jesus Christ. That same spirit poured out on man.....who were reckoned dead in trespass and sin
quickens us to life in Christ[SPIRIT] just some things to ponder. I kill and make alive,I wound and heal
.....the strongman/Samson...the Great Shepherd saw the wolf coming and lay down His life so no-one
could snatch them out of His hand. Surely we know not even death can separate us from the Love of
God that was shown unto us in Jesus Christ.
There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ to us.
He accomplished all necessary.
There is a rest in God which is a major part of our inheritance...in Christ.
It is not about us....our triumphs or failures. ( just ask our bro David) :)
It IS all about how the Lord...has been gracious to each of us...
In the face of all that.
That is why we can love one another. - Having known His mercies to us.
To give that...even in the roughest personal ( even), circumstance.
Even to the death. Remember our precious brother, Stephen. And his prayer while being stoned to the death of his physical body. What a treasure, alive in Christ, our brother was... To love and extend unmerited forgiveness to his murderers.
Probably only because he also knew that depth of the Lord's love to him.
Can't wait to shake Stephen's hand...embrace him too and kiss his forehead with a holy kiss.
"It is true that ALL WILL BE SAVED (I Tim. 2:4 and 4:10 and a hundred other verses like this). However, NOT ALL are saved at the same time. Only those in the FIRST RESURRECTION will inherit the Kingdom of God on earth to reign with Christ. ONLY the "very ELECT." ONLY those who "OVERCOME." ONLY the "manifested SONS OF GOD."
Eternity in heaven is NOT the "REWARD" of the saved. EVERYONE will eventually be in the realm of heaven with God for eternity. But ONLY those who are accounted worthy to be in the first resurrection will receive a SPECIAL MARVELOUS GLORIOUS REWARD. And what is that glorious reward: "EONIAN [AGE-ABIDING] LIFE, in the KINGDOM OF GOD, ruling and reigning with Christ's for "aions of the aions" until ALL in the heavens and ALL in the earth, and ALL under the earth [the deceased] are ALSO BROUGHT IN GOD'S FAMILY! It is a special reward to occurs AGES before the rest of humanity receive salvation. This reward is all through the New Testament, but few indeed, seem to see it.
What then happens to the "life" of all those who were given "aionion life." Do they DIE? Does their life come to AN END? Just what comes to an end, in THE END? Why, the "AIONS" [THE AGES], of course, come to an end. Do the Saints of the first resurrection then DIE WITH THE AGES? NO!! How so? If the "aions" END, and "aionion life" ENDS, why does not the life of the resurrected Saints ALSO END? Because God gave them IMMORTALITY AND INCORRUPTION FROM THE BEGINNING OF THEIR RESURRECTION, AND THEY STILL HAVE AND POSSES IT!
"Aionion" life, age-abiding life, the special reward part of the Saints life, ENDS--BUT IMMORTALITY AND INCORRUPTION DOES NOT END. Immortal life can NEVER END BECAUSE IMMORTALITY MEANS: DEATH=LESS=NESS--never to DIE! But in the SECOND resurrection ALL HUMANITY IS GIVEN IMMORTALITY. And it is the very judgment of the white throne and the spiritual, divine, cleaning of God's SPIRITUAL lake of fire than purifies all the wicked and unbelievers, until they ALL bow to the name of Jesus and call Him Lord and Saviour to the Glory of the Father (Phil.2:10-11)."
Anonymous.
Very good IMO. :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :iagree:
My only caveat to that is "some who are sure they will won't" and "some who think they wont will" - because(imo) it is about love, not knowledge or zeal.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I guess I have a little bit of a problem with that.. To me, if He chose us from the foundation of the world.. the forming, I guess I see it as chance.. if He does it all.. the grace to believe is a gift from Him.. a meaning included in grace is undeserved favor..
Even when successful at something we are still "altogether unprofitable because we only did what He carried out using us".
I guess I see the millennium still more in terms of serving, something we can only minutely do in this present age.. "He that would be great let them serve.."
When the disciples wanted to curse a certain town" for example, not that reigning with Jesus would curse anyone, but I'm thinking of the "you know not what manner of Spirit the work is of" (which I take to be referring to the kingdom).
Even in the heavens and heavenly scene of the elders, the 24 elders throw their crowns (of life) at the feet of He Who is. Ultimately He is all. I'm not a once saved always saved kind of gal, I think any rational creature anywhere, anytime who wanders from Him in any way, begins that journey... away..
I know. If He Almighty uses the term reign, etc, who am I to have reservations about it!?
But if nothing is earned (lest any should boast) then why should the lot of administrators/helpers/workers be any more glorious than any one of those not chosen to come to the faith during this lifetime and serve, administer, help in the age to come (2). A high, very high privilege, yes.
Perhaps it's just my idea of king.. as earth's have been.. "on earth you have kings ruling over you but it is not so amongst you.."
To be judges and teachers.. but it will still be His Spirit in operation.. I guess to be well rounded, I figure reigning with Him is different from how earthly kings are perceived.. and judges. When Israel wanted a king, God was not happy and did not approve of it. So I have to think a ruling or reigning in His kingdom is very much different than it is in man's world.
I think what it is, is I think in His 'Truth Proving Drama of the Ages' he has to have more than one class of character in the cast, and no matter what role I may be assigned I don't think I could seriously consider myself a queen.. Servant, handmaiden, administrator, even.. teacher, helper, judge/ as in able to judge.. the basis of which being love. ...queen? Not unless or until all are, perhaps.. but even then.. I don't believe their can be life (immortality) which is not in essence, in God, or God is that life. And He can withdraw it at any time. If we were immortal we would be co-God with Him? We may put it on , and have it, but it is still surely all His..? A sort of paradox.
If you've read this far (my post) thanks for bearing with my stumbling/babbling trying to express this thought, or work my way through it. :laughing7: ...special status.. just a role in acts of His play/production.. I think that's how I see it. I'm on this tiny iPhone today as my granddaughter needed to take my netbook to school (sigh) or I'd shorten this post of some of its rambling(ness) :laughing7:
:Peace2:
I agree that we are chosen and elect, but I hav known many Christians who were sure they were overcomers and I didnt see a smidgeon of love in them. I think on this level, "life", we are not given to know what we shall be, so we seek, we wrestle, we obey, we strive, not as if we can do anything in ourselves, but because thast i what the one who has chosen us has called us to do, according to the measure of faith we hav received (to the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not even what he has shall be taken away).. So Paul , said
For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 31, 2016, 07:47:17 PM
I agree that we are chosen and elect, but I hav known many Christians who were sure they were overcomers and I didnt see a smidgeon of love in them. I think on this level, "life", we are not given to know what we shall be, so we seek, we wrestle, we obey, we strive, not as if we can do anything in ourselves, but because thast i what the one who has chosen us has called us to do, according to the measure of faith we hav received (to the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not even what he has shall be taken away).. So Paul , said
For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
:dsunny:
Amen
I may cause some trouble with this so I apologize beforehand ..... I only see one resurrection, Christ was only raised once .... here is why I believe it .... the word "first" means foremost taken from a word that means "in front of", "prior to" with both words having "before" as part of the meaning ..... so I understand Rev 20:5-6 as having their part before the resurrection .... with that part being "the death of the flesh" for only after the death of the flesh can we be resurrected ..... exactly what Christ went through
Jesus was the first of the First Fruits.
There are 3 harvests. Jesus was the very first of the first harvest.
No problem jugghed.
Our differences on areas of peripheral doctrine do not affect our agreement on the fact that all shall be gathered into one in Christ. God shall be all in all.
i belive there are four harvests. Christ and those who were gathered with Him at His resurrection. Those who are His at His appearing. Those who are in the book of life at the Great White Throne, and those who come out of the lake of fire.
White Wings believes there are three.
You believe there is one.
In a sense there is one great harvest. Ultimately God will be "all in all".
We all believe Jesus, who said... "I am the resurrection and the life"....and...."If I am lifted up from the earth I wil draw all men unto me" :o)
For those interested in the topic some basics on this site (use search function: harvest) http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/chapter-6-god-s-three-harvest-festivals/
Two or three harvests is a little more tricky but I think this verse clearly shows there are at least two.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
If there is a first resurrection there is at least a second.
If the rest didn't live for another 1000 years that means some do live during that 1000 years. That's at least 2 groups.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2016, 10:33:53 AM
For those interested in the topic some basics on this site (use search function: harvest) http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/creations-jubilee/chapter-6-god-s-three-harvest-festivals/
Two or three harvests is a little more tricky but I think this verse clearly shows there are at least two.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
If there is a first resurrection there is at least a second.
If the rest didn't live for another 1000 years that means so do live in that 1000 years. That's at least 2 groups.
:2c:
:iagree: :iagree:
I think there very surely must be at the least the two resurrections.. what with, as you've said, there being what's called a "first" resurrection and the verse "the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are ended.."
..and why resurrect? If ET or EA were true?
Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" and many jump to the conclusion that this means 'after death all hope is lost'. When, imo, I think it simply means if one dies in their sins, they will rise still in their sins.. (Surely this is all God's grand drama - both life and the Revelation scroll-which is the 'end'/conclusion of the story?/all important lesson?)
The Kingdom is like three measures of meal (dough)..?..
And those verses in 1 Corinthians 15 about "as in Adam, all die, so in Christ shall all live, but each in their own order, Christ the Firstfruits, then those that are His at His coming.. and then the end when He hands over the Kingdom to the Father, so that He may be "all in all".. Again 3? I can't help but think so! But so easily missed (dismissed?) ..overlooked!
..Looks like an interesting link.. I'm off to check it out..
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.
Quote from: marie glen on December 09, 2016, 04:39:55 PM..Looks like an interesting link.. I'm off to check it out..
Obviously not everyone will agree with everything and they don't have to. I just want to suggest that everyone interested in this topic for him/herself considers why Jesus so often kept talking about farming things like harvest, sowing, plowing, weeds, harvest, pruning, etc, etc.
Personally I think He wasn't showing off His knowledge about farming. I think that having the mind/knowledge of an ancient farmer may help to understand just that extra bit/depth of the Bible. Even in Revelation it continues with wine presses, harvesting angels and threshing.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/harvests.htm
3 links in red
I never realized that! I've thought since the Spring Holy Days - Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits - (are HIM) and were fulfilled by His 1st advent, then surely the Autumn Holy Days - Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles - will be fulfilled by His long 2nd advent.. making judgement 'day' (surprise!) to be that 'national'/collective day of Atonement..
But this, is even clearer! :banana: :dsunny: 3 harvests - Passover - Pentecost - Tabernacles
And these, to me, go along with 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then, those who belong to Christ, when he comes. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has destroyed every dominion, every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet . 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death . 27 For "he has put everything in subjection under his feet." Now when it says that "everything has been put in subjection," it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. 28 And when everything is subjected to him , then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."
THE 3 HARVESTS! -
Passover - Christ the Firstfruits
Pentecost - those who belong to Christ, when he comes
Tabernacles - when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father.. so that God may be all in all
I've always really liked how Firstfruits, closely related to Passover, both being in the "Spring Feasts", was in part a consecration of the entire harvest to God.. :cloud9:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2016, 06:31:35 PM
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection.
Isn't verse 5 referring to verse 4? :Chinscratch:
that's how i've always read it anyway :dontknow: :smile:
4- I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Then it goes on speaking about that first group? -
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are finished,
the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison..
10
and the adversary.. was cast into the lake of fire..11
And I saw a great white throne..
12
and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened..
13 and (thus did?) the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; (Young's Literal) - when the thousand years are finished whereas, the other crowd rose at Jesus' return...
:dontknow: :Peace2:
I'm kinda sure you spotted it but... :LH:
Passover - Christ the Firstfruits
Plural. It's not saying Christ IS the firstfruitS.
He surely is part of it. He's the very first of that harvest. But that first fruit harvest is more plentiful than 1 person.
I understand it as "Christ and the (other) first fruits"
Matt 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks split,
Matt 27:52 and the sepulchers were opened, and many bodies of the sanctified who have been asleep arose.
It's so easy to overlook things but if you zoom in a bit you will spot many references to multiple harvests.
You spotted most, maybe all and just forgot to underline "But each in his own order"
For groups to have an order there must be at least 2.
I think Passover isn't an harvest. First Fruits is the harvest. In a way Jesus was sown in the tomb at Passover day and harvested 3 days later.
Also of interest is how Firstfruits is the single sheaf of barley waved... (barley harvest)
And Pentecost, which came to be the beginning of "the church", is associated with wheat (as in wheat and tares) - and the first fruits of the wheat harvest .. and associated with the wheat harvest is two loaves (waved)
the THREE harvests, not to be confused with the TWO at the "end of the age" and Revelation 14 - which is TWO harvest at Jesus' return.. the wheat gathered into His barn, and the grapes of wrath.. (the blood at the end of the chapter, oil? where Armageddon takes place, last great war-the fruits/consequences/judgment of man's doings)
But! we see the grape harvest again.. later! When Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father.. so the Father can be all in all..
imo.. :gsmile:
..I can't help thinking U.R. is THE key to understanding (fully) the feasts.. otherwise, the understanding is a bit off.. As with most/all? things Biblical?
...does ET believe 'souls' go to 'heaven or hell' at death.. then those in heaven - believers (some) are raised at Jesus' return.. but others not until the 1000 years are ended? :Chinscratch: interesting.. strange, imo, but interesting.. so the unbelievers never even have a day in court? Some precious loved ones are screaming in agony even now!? NOT! ..but Jesus gives peace and joy.. which I take to mean it doesn't matter.. (I am being veRy, as in extremely, sarcastic. sorry.)
And, some folks, I think, believe each one of us has a first and a second resurrection. :mshock:
:Chinscratch: I'm convinced more than ever that U.R. is a/the key to understanding God's Word. ..And life. :Peace2:
Quoteoil?
When you read about Pentecost in both old and new testament it often mentions: Farmers busy on threshing floors. Wine. Olive oil.
So while the focus is very much on wine all three are harvested in the same period of time. Likely grapes are harvested a few weeks before Pentecost.
Ultra purified top quality olive oil was used to burn the Menorah. And the oil flowing through it was seen as holy, HS.
Acts 2 is about Pentecost and speaking in tongues.
Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of
new wine.
Wine isn't harvested. It's fermented grape juice. I must admit I don't know how long it takes to ferment juice into wine but I guess at least 2 weeks.
So Pentecost took place at least a few weeks after the grape harvest started.
Quote from: marie glen on December 09, 2016, 07:46:38 PM
..I can't help thinking U.R. is THE key to understanding (fully) the feasts.. otherwise, the understanding is a bit off.. As with most/all? things Biblical?
Things can always be twisted in many directions. I would like to suggest that you read the sheep and goat judgement and after that share if you see any connection between that judgement and what was discussed in this thread.
I do and I don't.. The same, except the tares includes all not yet saved since the beginning(?) but the goats I think of as being in the 'last' days scenario.. When Jesus says He will separate the sheep and the goats at His coming.. I believe it is an earthly separating. "He will send His angels out (at His return) to gather His elect from the four winds" - the wheat (the sheep) as opposed to "and they gathered to Armageddon"..
What think you?
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Matt 7:23 And then I will profess to them, I never acknowledged you. Depart from me, ye who work lawlessness.
Matt 25:46 And these will go away (=depart) into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
I think the sheep are the first fruits and the goats the second resurrection.
Both groups are Christians. The first group is obvious, the second group prophesied in His name so they must have been Christians too. And as we know all believers will see eternal life. Even those nasty ones not part of my denomination :laugh:
The correction in Matthew is a nice word to research. It links to pruning, which once again brings us to farming (olive trees?)
"oil"... it's all so connected.. yes? :cloud9:
I was thinking, however, or mideast oil, when mankind once again lets loose with split atoms.. at armageddon (all pure conjecture, of course, on my part).
One more note (although I'm still reading the web page article). on a personal level brought up by the page (inspiring) - Passover, one are saved.. Pentecost, the Holy Ghost Baptism, so one may walk the walk.. and Tabernacles, God resides.. :cloud9:
very interesting study.. thanks for posting it!
I'm in no way trying to insult Jesus. Far from.
But He was like a broken record. He had sweet, short and simple teaching, He just rephrased in many ways.
About splitting atoms. Well bloodshed started with Cain and never stopped. So I'll never try to prove we won't see a war in the Israel area. It could start just right now.
But I also believe His message was for, and could be understood by, people would couldn't split atoms. They managed to split harvested grain and nothing smaller.
Ok, perhaps the Pharisees were able to split hairs :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2016, 08:15:19 PM
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Matt 7:23 And then I will profess to them, I never acknowledged you. Depart from me, ye who work lawlessness.
Matt 25:46 And these will go away (=depart) into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
I think the sheep are the first fruits and the goats the second resurrection.
Both groups are Christians. The first group is obvious, the second group prophesied in His name so they must have been Christians too.
The correction in Matthew is a nice word to research. It links to pruning, which once again brings us to farming (olive trees?)
I just think they were not really following Jesus, so they will have their part with the unsaved. He "knows His sheep". But ultimately all will be His sheep.. all having been pruned, with the same sort of farming as the (firstfruits of the) wheat went through..
I think the 2nd resurrection is of all those who have not been saved (yet).
:Chinscratch:
Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne
13 and the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them
I think
ultimately, as to 'class' there is no distinction (to God) between the folks saved during this life, and those saved later. That the division is for dramatic effect. You need (basically) more than one 'character' to have a good production/play/drama. (Truth proving.)
During the millennium, I believe His followers will be serving. Public servants, so to speak, politely or in a sense, called reigning. I also believe, because of the spacing of the Fall Holy Days, that 'day' of judgment (Great White Throne) will last about 500 years. And I believe by end of that 'day' most will have gladly bent the knee.. I can't help thinking it's only at end of that 'day' that it will be said, those (still) not believing will go to the lake of fire... Because who, or how many, after having experienced being resurrected from their grave, and having witnessed what surely(?) must be a very long day of the judging all things, how many will 'not believe'? Which is what it takes to have the name written in the book of life.
And previous to then, imo, there will have been no humans in the lof.. as the beast and false prophet of Rev 19 thrown into the lof at His return (imo) are institutions of men active at the time of Jesus' return (world body and biggest strong delusion of this age :smile: has turned christendom/western civilization on its ear).
So you believe there is no 'judgment' for the not yet saved? just lake of (purifying) fire? I figure but for the grace of God, there go I..
I see this whole thing - life and history - as a great illustration, a foundation lesson for all in heaven and earth. That God is both life and perfection. Imperfection, which came about within (the) rational creatures - choice being a side shoot of it - Yet imperfection is the opposite of life. (And the abyss?) And we are learning life from death/nonlife. (Good from evil; true from untrue/error/rending/death) - All of us learning that to turn away from God in any tiny way can only ever end in a wisp of self destructive smoke.. (apocalypse)
:dontknow: :dontknow: That's the way I see it anyway! :smile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2016, 08:22:55 PM
I'm in no way trying to insult Jesus. Far from.
But He was like a broken record. He had sweet, short and simple teaching, He just rephrased in many ways.
Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2016, 08:32:30 PM
About splitting atoms. Well bloodshed started with Cain and never stopped. So I'll never try to prove we won't see a war in the Israel area. It could start just right now.
But I also believe His message was for, and could be understood by, people would couldn't split atoms. They managed to split harvested grain and nothing smaller.
Ok, perhaps the Pharisees were able to split hairs :winkgrin:
:laugh2: :laugh2:
...no they couldn't but 'they' sure can now.. and, I think they/mankind did in rev 16:12-17 (but the description is a blend of its 1st time and its last?) which I believe is the same event as 13:13 :gsmile: but it's not recognized that the verse points to an office, not an individual. Also I think it is/was the "long sword" given to the 2nd horse and rider (war, a top element/seal of the latter age, the years of our Lord, A.D.) - It's my belief we are in a pause of the split atom used as warfare (rev 7:1, while many are being sealed on their forehead, from all nations, 'then', or and, 144,000 of Israel) (seal on forehead - 100% clarity? to go with the seal on the :HeartThrob: ? sorry about the heart, been hanging out at facebook too much.. 100% clarity, wouldn't that be awesome!!)
:Peace2:
There also a rather weak, but interesting, study that goat can be understood as a young sheep. A sheep that needs training. Training = correction.
My take on LoF is that it means Lake of Life.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html
It's, surprise, about cleaning. Fire and brimstone where the number one disinfectants in the ancient world.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
There also a rather weak, but interesting, study that goat can be understood as a young sheep. A sheep that needs training. Training = correction.
My take on LoF is that it means Lake of Life.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html
It's surprise about cleaning. Fire and brimstone where the number one disinfectants in the ancient world.
:thumbsup:
At the waving of the one barley sheaf, all the crop was consecrated.. Not one kernal lost.. And not one grape. In the 'end', all being wheat/sheep. Ultimately all earth's harvest, one crop, one harvest..
:dsunny:
My going back and forth all over the place is to show the evidence might be weak at some times. Could be misunderstood. But combined it's an unbreakable mesh.
EDIT: Want to add a goat is also a clean sacrificial animal.
If God was really angry I guess He would have used sheep and pigs.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2016, 07:50:44 PM
"IMO this was the first fruits of the first fruits, and they ascended with Christ as intercessors, "caught up to His throne"- perhaps the 144,000." "The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."
But imo all they did was "appear" they showed no power of the throne. Perhaps this was just a representation of what was to come?
And imo how could they be the "first fruits of the first fruits" when.........
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
"There is nothing in the scripture that says whether they were resurrected temporarily or not. To insist on it either way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge, so it is useless to debate it."
Then imo a good part of our forum is useless, for much goes "way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge...."
"But, I also think the idea that God would put them back in their graves is a little strange. Did their bodies return to decay? Did they return to sheol? Just doesnt seem like God to me. Go from nothing to something and then back to nothing?"
The way I see it imo, all of it belongs to Him and if it "be strange" so be it. The Bible speaks of no "resurrections" only of a first resurrection or resurrection.
Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust."
Much of what our forum is for is discussion. Not establishing jot and tittle doctrine on peripheral issues. Discussing them is fine, as long as we keep the "spirit of discussion" in the discussing :o)
Something to note. The comas were inserted by translators. There were no comas in the original text, so it could be read...
"Christ(1), the firstfruits(2), those that are His at His coming(3) and then comes
the end"(4) I say could be read this way, not "should be" :o). Also, in the Greek text there was no "the", in "the end"- it is another translator insertion and should be italicized like the NAS does with insrtions....and that is just another thought to consider.
When the Israelites took possession of the promised land, When they received the harvest they were to first offer a sheaf offering to the Lord with a male lamb(Lev 23). This was a "first fruits of the first fruits offering" imo. It was a "handful" of the first-fruits. I personally think it symbolized the day Christ, our promised land, was raised from the dead and took with Him many saints that were raised with him, who were seen around Jerusalem(Matthew 27:52).
"then comes the end".... "the end" in the verse is simply "telos". Same word Jesus used in Matthew 24..."then the end will come". In His usage of the word there it is refferring to a series of events that constitute the end so...
I think there are generally two major resurrections in "the resurrection" but they have "parts". The attempt to overcategorize them or "limit" them in specific terms may be simply specifying details of things not fully given, because in 1 Cor 15 itself,
Paul clearly states there will be a wide variety in the resurrection(as a whole).35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.42
So also is the resurrection of the dead.Almost the whole chapter is about "the resurrection"- its nature, its elements, its conclusion. But the verses are not, imo, for setting jots and tittles of doctrine concerning these elements- but for establishing a general understanding of the principles and elements of a more complex picture we cannot yet see fully- as he often does.
If the scripture says there is a "first resurrection", and then speaks of another resurrection after the 1000 day, then I think a second resurrection is indicated by tbe verses that follow that..... but let each one form their own conclusion.
I still say to some extent we are speculating from our own perspectives.
For instance..... If the second death occurs after the first resurrection, what occurs to end the second death?
I mean, if one wants to make that all symbol and metaphor then for them this whole discussion is not relevant..
If there is a first ressurection followed by a second death, then I think we know "all death" must be followed by resurrection of some sort.
SO what I see thru the glass darkly is this.
Jesus said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Paul said, "So also is the resurrection of the dead"
So there is "the resurrection" as a term to include, generally all resurrection in Christ. Paull uses it. Jesus uses it.
But Paul says, almost in the same breath , describing "the resurrection" that it occurs, "each in its own order"- and gives the order, so to me it is clear that the resurrection includes categories, or "parts".
So it does go beyond the pale of what we kno to say either "there are no parts- there is only one resurrection" or, "there are exactly this many parts".
This doesnt mean we ought not discuss it. I love eschcatology. It means we ought not be so adamant and specific, after all the whole portion in Revelations about the first rez and the LOF is only a few verses long.
It was not given for forming specific facets of doctrine. It was given as a glimpse into the ages to come.
If there are specific insights into these things, I agree with White Wings and Marieglenn, they are hidden in the feasts- but there are also many possible interpretations of those things.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 09, 2016, 10:50:20 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2016, 07:50:44 PM
"IMO this was the first fruits of the first fruits, and they ascended with Christ as intercessors, "caught up to His throne"- perhaps the 144,000." "The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus' resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."
But imo all they did was "appear" they showed no power of the throne. Perhaps this was just a representation of what was to come?
And imo how could they be the "first fruits of the first fruits" when.........
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
"There is nothing in the scripture that says whether they were resurrected temporarily or not. To insist on it either way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge, so it is useless to debate it."
Then imo a good part of our forum is useless, for much goes "way goes beyond the pale of our knowledge...."
"But, I also think the idea that God would put them back in their graves is a little strange. Did their bodies return to decay? Did they return to sheol? Just doesnt seem like God to me. Go from nothing to something and then back to nothing?"
The way I see it imo, all of it belongs to Him and if it "be strange" so be it. The Bible speaks of no "resurrections" only of a first resurrection or resurrection.
Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust."
Much of what our forum is for is discussion. Not establishing jot and tittle doctrine on peripheral issues. Discussing them is fine, as long as we keep the "spirit of discussion" in the discussing :o)
Something to note. The comas were inserted by translators. There were no comas in the original text, so it could be read...
"Christ(1), the firstfruits(2), those that are His at His coming(3) and then comes the end"(4) I say could be read this way, not "should be" :o). Also, in the Greek text there was no "the", in "the end"- it is another translator insertion and should be italicized like the NAS does with insrtions....and that is just another thought to consider.
When the Israelites took possession of the promised land, When they received the harvest they were to first offer a sheaf offering to the Lord with a male lamb(Lev 23). This was a "first fruits of the first fruits offering" imo. It was a "handful" of the first-fruits. I personally think it symbolized the day Christ, our promised land, was raised from the dead and took with Him many saints that were raised with him, who were seen around Jerusalem(Matthew 27:52).
"then comes the end".... "the end" in the verse is simply "telos". Same word Jesus used in Matthew 24..."then the end will come". In His usage of the word there it is refferring to a series of events that constitute the end so...
I think there are generally two major resurrections in "the resurrection" but they have "parts". The attempt to overcategorize them or "limit" them in specific terms may be simply specifying details of things not fully given, because in 1 Cor 15 itself, Paul clearly states there will be a wide variety in the resurrection(as a whole).
35But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.42So also is the resurrection of the dead.
Almost the whole chapter is about "the resurrection"- its nature, its elements, its conclusion. But the verses are not, imo, for setting jots and tittles of doctrine concerning these elements- but for establishing a general understanding of the principles and elements of a more complex picture we cannot yet see fully- as he often does.
If the scripture says there is a "first resurrection", and then speaks of another resurrection after the 1000 day, then I think a second resurrection is indicated by tbe verses that follow that..... but let each one form their own conclusion.
I still say to some extent we are speculating from our own perspectives.
For instance..... If the second death occurs after the first resurrection, what occurs to end the second death?
I mean, if one wants to make that all symbol and metaphor then for them this whole discussion is not relevant..
If there is a first ressurection followed by a second death, then I think we know "all death" must be followed by resurrection of some sort.
SO what I see thru the glass darkly is this.
Jesus said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Paul said, "So also is the resurrection of the dead"
So there is "the resurrection" as a term to include, generally all resurrection in Christ. Paull uses it. Jesus uses it.
But Paul says, almost in the same breath , describing "the resurrection" that it occurs, "each in its own order"- and gives the order, so to me it is clear that the resurrection includes categories, or "parts".
So it does go beyond the pale of what we kno to say either "there are no parts- there is only one resurrection" or, "there are exactly this many parts".
This doesnt mean we ought not discuss it. I love eschcatology. It means we ought not be so adamant and specific, after all the whole portion in Revelations about the first rez and the LOF is only a few verses long.
It was not given for forming specific facets of doctrine. It was given as a glimpse into the ages to come.
If there are specific insights into these things, I agree with White Wings and Marieglenn, they are hidden in the feasts- but there are also many possible interpretations of those things.
By jove I think we got it..."42So also is the resurrection of the dead." There it is THE resurrection of the dead. Is there another resurrection other than of the dead? Just asking. :Peace2:
Well, if you read the post, my answer was there :o)
IMO there is :"the resurrection"- the general state of being resurrected that will eventually include all(As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive), and there is the "each in his own order" reffering to the various elements of that process which is "an administration suitable to the funess of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ".
IMO the first resurrection is only one part of "the resurrection"
Quote from: marie glen on December 09, 2016, 09:11:08 PMbut it's not recognized that the verse points to an office, not an individual. Also I think it is/was the "long sword" given to the 2nd horse and rider (war, a top element/seal of the latter age, the years of our Lord, A.D.) -
You seem to like this kinda stuff so I have another war-puzzle for you.
When reading about horses they are most often linked to colors.
Compare those colors to colors of present day flags. To get you started in a big way, look for a flag with with a big sword on it :swordfight:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 28, 2016, 07:50:44 PM
how could they be the "first fruits of the first fruits" when.........
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
Firstfruits, which is in that week of the Srpring Holy Days, is the
single sheaf of
barley waved... (barley harvest)
Day of Pentecost, which, as we know, came to be the beginning of "the church", is associated with wheat (as in wheat and tares) - and the
first fruits of the wheat harvest .. [and associated with the wheat harvest is two loaves (waved) - "then they that are Christ's, at his coming, then the end, when Jesus hands over the Kingdom to the Father... that He may be all in all." A two fold harvest, two loaves?]
:Peace2: :smile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2016, 01:07:15 PM
Quote from: marie glen on December 09, 2016, 09:11:08 PMbut it's not recognized that the verse points to an office, not an individual. Also I think it is/was the "long sword" given to the 2nd horse and rider (war, a top element/seal of the latter age, the years of our Lord, A.D.) -
You seem to like this kinda stuff so I have another war-puzzle for you.
When reading about horses they are most often linked to colors.
Compare those colors to colors of present day flags. To get you started in a big way, look for a flag with with a big sword on it :swordfight:
I heard a teaching on this that compared the white to the RCC; the red to communism/socialism; the black to, not sure.. business? And the pale of green to Islam.. Not unreasonable.
But, I tend to see them a bit different, mostly horse and rider one - as I think of the seals as being the major elements of the latter age, which, imo, is the years of our Lord, A.D. (CE, as to how they changed the day's abbreviations to leaving out Jesus!)
So being the entire age we used to call A.D., in my mind, anyway, the white horse and rider with a crown (same word as in Rev 19) who goes forth conquering and to conquer ("triumphing over principalities and powers, making an open show of them") - not to say the shadow gospel hasn't ridden right alongside...
Then horse and rider two, a red horse and rider, who take peace from the earth.. war, man's constant unwanted companion, and this one "is given a long sword" or other translations, a "great sword" - I believe that is easy to see in this modern day/age; and yes communism/socialism is a huge factor in the war(s).
Then the rider on a black horse with scales, war's companion/follower, shortage and inequity-"but harm not the oil and the wine", luxuries for the wealthy.. (business; black suits of?)
All these continue their ride, once begun, to the end.. and escalate as 'the day' wears on.. They are described as a blend of what they are when they begin and what they are fully mature..? (obscuring a lot of the vision/scroll for many days, as, in this way, things are recorded here, so early on in the narrative, which do not happen on the planet until veRy late days!? This is especially true of seal 6, if not true of any of the others..)
Then the pale rider and horse.. pestilence, which surely(?) includes chemical as well as biological, and when all is said and done, 1/4 perish. This one has a name "death" and the grave follows after him, including the mass grave. Which we have seen, and it sounds like we will continue to see.. and some translations say "wild beasts" - wild governments? terrorist regimes? but "beast" is the same here as anywhere else.. same word... (pale/or green)
Seal 5, the blood of the martyrs, like that of Abel cries out to God.. and He says, wait until the full number of martyrs is in.. metaphor.. just like the horses..
And seal 6, which I believe goes totally missed but was huGe, I believe was that first splitting of the atom. I believe it is also Rev 13:13-pointing to an office, not an individual as thought.. also is the long or great sword given to war/red horse and rider-communism a big factor of/red.
And what follows this seal 6? - a pause/interlude, "four angels hold back the winds from harming/blowing upon, the earth, sea or trees..
Which is where I believe we are, currently, and have been for a while. Meanwhile - the sealing upon the foreheads of a great crowd from all nations? and of 144,000 of Israel. (Mt 23:39?) And a great Spirit of praise and worship is poured out? experienced? As they are "before the throne" which imo, is worship. Not literal.
But lately I believe we are moving on to 8:1-4, not 5-6, not yet..
I did a study recently - https://bibleprophecy4today.blogspot.com/ - rev in pictures. Previously have done in outline, in lists, in articles, in poem.. :laughing7: when someone understands what i'm saying.. i may faint.. But I'm pretty convinced the insight was an answer to prayer "to know" so as to be able "to tell"... And there are one or two other things I'm praying to know (in order to tell).
The other day it seemed as though Babel Tower is like a barometer..? "Look, they are all as one" working together "and there will be nothing beyond them to do.." - when the world once again is 'one'? the system gone global..?
:Peace2:
P.S. - and the flag w/ the sword? Rev 20:4d.. the dove 'will' compatriot with the vulture? dove being world red beast/body of rev 13:1-10 (with its iron and bronze! of Daniel 2 & 7:7,19) - the last days ten divisions of (10 kings, toes) will (finally) devour capitalism (which went "pornos" and corrupted the 7 hills of earth; translated harlot, $ity babble.. whose forehead/psyche is all untruth? responsible for aLL slain upon earth.. the forehead, that is.
Surely you have seen those ISIS guys waving a flag with a big sword on it.
Wikipedia: "An Islamic flag is a flag that complies with Islamic rules. Traditionally Islamic flags were of solid color. The most favored colors were black, white, red and green."
The color of the 4 horses of the apocalyps.
my :2c: satan has his horsemen[flesh/carnal mind] and God has His[God's spirit as chariots and horses] one"s in the
corrupted flesh image...the other in His incorrupt spiritual image.
the beast that was not yet is...will wage warfare and go to his destruction.....and the armies of Heaven with Jesus
Christ will wage spiritual warfare[not war against flesh and blood] in righteousness.
the serpent eat's dust[flesh]all his day's and can not not stand before the Lord[crushed under His feet] Man's dust
vessel returns unto the earth[dust] from which it came..but his spirit returns unto God......man is told to lift yourselves
erect[god as belly in earth] your deliverance draws nigh. deliverance from the wicked one and this body undergoing this
death.
..and deliverance from flawed character..! :banana: :dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 13, 2016, 08:04:32 PM
Surely you have seen those ISIS guys waving a flag with a big sword on it.
Wikipedia: "An Islamic flag is a flag that complies with Islamic rules. Traditionally Islamic flags were of solid color. The most favored colors were black, white, red and green."
The color of the 4 horses of the apocalyps.
...that's what I meant..
the beheadings of Rev 20, verse 4.. harnessed/encouraged? (imo) by a world beast(body) to bring about its vision of ruling a 'peace on earth' without YHWH! which of course cannot ever work..
Perhaps you can see that I believe there is more going on than only the M.E. beast(s) who wave the black, white, red, green flags - and which another study says is the green horse and rider.. green being, in that study, considered to be their color..
Bible prophecy interpretation is first heard as a new and unknown language..?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 13, 2016, 08:04:32 PM
Surely you have seen those ISIS guys waving a flag with a big sword on it.
Wikipedia: "An Islamic flag is a flag that complies with Islamic rules. Traditionally Islamic flags were of solid color. The most favored colors were black, white, red and green."
The color of the 4 horses of the apocalyps.
P.S. - the reason I believe there is more going on than the sword wavers, is because the 'big' beast of Revelation is a direct cross reference with the "4th more terrible beast" of Daniel chapter 7, and in chapter 7 it's pointed out it has iron teeth (iron in Daniel 2, was Rome) and has bronze claws (which scatter what the iron doesn't subdue) and the bronze in Daniel 2, or Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2, is Greece. Most Bible prophecy folks agree on that, as to Daniel 2.. Daniel 7 :dontknow:
[Do the iron teeth remind any one else in the universe of the 'iron' columns of Rome?] So, because of the Roman/Greek (western!) in this big beast of Revelation, I believe it is/will be a western based 'big' beast/governing - but because we can see Rev 20:4d - beheadings, even now occurring.. yet the BIG beast is western (iron/bronze - roman/graeco) in essence.. yet beheadings become so very prevalent..? I can only assume a sort of 'partnership' must go on.. That's my reasoning concerning the sword wavers / sword flag wavers..
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Dirt symbolizes mankind.
Iron symbolizes angels.
And, yes, there is some sort of partnership between them.
Obviously we can associate many symbols with many countries. Like a bear with Russia. Which isn't totally impossible because Exo 23:28 uses hornet for the Northern Egyptian armies. The hornet was their national symbol.
But we can/should also look at what's written in the OT. About families/brothers splitting up and getting enemies. If we track their descendants we see families of many generations back wage war against each other in the OT. Could it be Rev is predicting another 'family war'? One of the examples could be Gen 27.
As said you can have whatever opinion about that but that one stays close to the stage set in the OT.
A bit oversimplified, but the Bible is a bit like a standard Hollywood movie. The bad guys wreck havoc (snake in garden and many more). Then a hero arrives in town (Jesus). All sort of confrontations happen. All the evil guys from the past show up once more so the big hero can defeat them.
And that's how I see things. It all starts with good relations between God and Adam. Things go bad, worse and even worse. And it all ends with "All in all".
I don't agree with that interpretation for several reasons. 1 it is appointed for ALL men to die once. 2. in the day ye eat of it ye shall die[a day as a thousand
years] 3 God cutting short man's life here first to 120 years,then further cutting it short to 70. 4. if those days had not been cut short no flesh[man] would be saved
[so why would He send us down here and expose us time and again..etc why steep us like teabags over and over again in this cesspool/world?]
but because of the elect,He cut those days short[all men elected/chosen of God to receive eternal life through Jesus Christ]/man elected to be raised up in
Christ's image.
the choice was never ours..it depends not on the one desiring..but that the choosing/election be of God. God has elected that all men be raised up in
the incoruptable,immortal image of His son.
I do agree that much of the true spiritual nature of God/Christ has been lost through religiosity?:2c:
How do you reconcile the scriptures I mentioned with your ideas?
We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. 4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,...Eph 1
21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—...Col 1
Jesus is the Savior. He has saved, is saving and will save, until God is all in all.
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Tim 2
I agree that Jesus came to work the crops. Seeds are planted, watered, pruned, harvested. Eventually every seed will will be gathered.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2016, 11:10:15 PM
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
There must be a second. Can I get some help as to where to find it? Thanks
Rather than create a new thread just yet I will test the water using this one.
There is no 2nd resurrection. The 1,000 year reign has a select few resurrected and they are the 12 Tribes from the end of the 2nd woe back to the sons of Abraham as stated in Eze:37 and the Church. The ones called the rest are resurrected at the very end of the same period and in that era time switches back to 1,000 years is equal to 1 day when you are with God. That is how Adam was able to live to be 930 and still die in the same day he sinned.
In support of that I usually post the relevant verses as I go along but not for this time. The ones called 'the rest' in Re:20 are in hell for the 1,000 years and then they are resurrected at the GWT event that ends the chapter, it does not end the passage as the Re:21 is the ending of the passage so the ones given the water are the same people. Hebrews:12 is about chastisement and since the setting is Mount Sion and Heavenly Jerusalem the event has to be the GWT event. It is chastisement and then forgiveness rather than more punishment. Isaiah:65 is an expansion of the ones called 'the rest' and it starts off describing the bad relationship between a group of people and God. The sword in the last verse of Re:19 is the same sword mentioned in Isa:65 and the two groups described after are the ones alive on the earth and the ones that are sent to hell. Rewards and punishments. The only ones sent to hell is that group and hell is the grave yet the person is awake so there is no mistaken what event and what time it is. That means the few verses about Jerusalem are about New Jerusalem after Re:22 ends and 'the rest' exit the city and start populating the New Earth which goes to the end of the chapter. The cryptic verse needs a bit of an explanation. God set the age of a person at 120 years and then he would die if he was a sinner. Cain would have died of 'old age' at that age while some (or all) were living to almost 1,000 years. Moses was the 1 who set it for all people after him.
An infant of days will die means when somebody is born in the new earth they are considered to be an infant and as such they are nor subject to sin. (due to being at home all the time probably) The 'infant' title is dropped and the title 'child of God' takes it's place for the next 100 years. They start it off married to somebody they fell in love with and in that time they live an adult life and have 100 children per couple. At the age of 120 they appear before God and Christ and they are judged. When they are found to be sinless the title is dropped and the one of 'old man' is taken on for the rest of eternity. A sinner of 100 years is the same time-frame and they would be sent to the fiery lake, end of the story for them. Once you are an 'old man' you are immortal and the universe is empty because holy Angels have moved to their promised new heaven and their old place is a 'land without a people' so to speak as what the Angels left behind is stuff that is still in working condition.
Speculative eschatology isnt the focus of Tentmaker- lets try to keep the conversation somewhere near the realm of the site title...."Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe" :declare:
You could have saved me some time by posting that in my introduction thread, you know, like this reply only the opposite.
Quote from: jabcat on February 18, 2018, 07:33:23 PM
Hi. No you won't get banned for those beliefs. Just remember to post them (and any) in a conversational, "IMO, as I understand, I believe" tone and all should be OK :) There may be variations presented, even disagreement, etc., but always done conversationally so further discussion can occur. :thumbsup:
the secound reurrection is of the righteous and wicked[tokogae]=dead being as we have no righteousness of our own...thus void of grace[fallen angels/twice dead
=doubly condemned]law written for the lawless one/son of perdition.the first resurrection is for all men who have formerly bore the corrupt image to be raised
up in the incorrupt.Just as shown in the great deliverance/exodus[exit-the-dust]we shall inherit a paradise/promised land Heaven which has vomited out former
inhabitants[and satan and his angels fought with Michael and his angels and they were castout. Jacob/supplant.........aplace prepared indeed!
MHz..Iread the scripture regarding no infant will not fail to fulfill his years..and the man who lives to 1ooyrs then dies is considered cursed...as this.
because the sinner man is always the 'oldmanofsin" and the new creaturea'babe'littlechildren" are the 'childrenofGod 'and both the wheat and tares grow uptogather
....the oldman of sin..no matter how long we exist on this earth inflesh..will perish[be considered accursed]..but the new creation babe inChrist will not
fail to fulfill eternallife....being raised up incorruptible/immortal.[no longer will the infant be put to death by the old manofsin.[man/child snatched uptothrone]
now I agree with you on some of the things you share,and I love examining these things,but I am hard put to even know where to begin.you are somewhat
overwhelming...and it is as if a dam has burst forth... :declare: :friendstu: maybe we could slow down and converse in smaller bites? :2c: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: MHz on February 18, 2018, 08:21:00 AM
An infant of days will die means when somebody is born in the new earth they are considered to be an infant and as such they are nor subject to sin. (due to being at home all the time probably) The 'infant' title is dropped and the title 'child of God' takes it's place for the next 100 years. They start it off married to somebody they fell in love with and in that time they live an adult life and have 100 children per couple. At the age of 120 they appear before God and Christ and they are judged. When they are found to be sinless the title is dropped and the one of 'old man' is taken on for the rest of eternity. A sinner of 100 years is the same time-frame and they would be sent to the fiery lake, end of the story for them. Once you are an 'old man' you are immortal and the universe is empty because holy Angels have moved to their promised new heaven and their old place is a 'land without a people' so to speak as what the Angels left behind is stuff that is still in working condition.
I'm a huge fan of letting the bible interpret itself.. context, cross references -- Interlinear! And good old common sense and straight forward, it says what it says..
The bible in many ways tells the same message over and over.. straight forward and poetically and metaphorically.. But adding to (or taking away) is commonly practiced now as always and it's only by being good and grounded in His Word(s) that we can hope to tell one from the other.. and this includes in our own heart.. Sharing the Word is humble.. I read something which has stayed with me and is something I use to test my heart. It's that preaching Truth, the Lord, His Word, glorifies the Lord (Jesus or Yhvh).. preaching or teaching my visions, dreams, etc.. or so called special insight no one else has..
glorifies self.. It's a thin line sometimes, as we all have insights - on His Word, that someone else may not (yet) have.. So that taught me to be doubly sure of what it is I may be promoting.. Double, triple, etc checking - context, cross references.. the overall gist of God's Word.. "all" pertaining verses..
Quote from: MHz on February 18, 2018, 08:21:00 AM
There is no 2nd resurrection.
Revelation chapter 20 -
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw
the souls of those who
had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they
lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did
not live again until the thousand years were finished. This (then) is the
first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the
first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him
a thousand years.
1 Thessalonians 413 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep (died)
lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(Zech 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives..) But, the rest of the dead, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Now when the thousand years have expired... 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them <-- this resurrection is 1000 years after the first one. And is not of the same who rose in the first one.. but this is "the rest of the dead". And immediately following it is Judgment 'Day' - with the millenium/1000 years being 1000 years - The verse is a thousand years, to the LORD, is like a day. It does not say it is code for all time references. That I believe, is a running with God's Word..
:Peace2: God bless!
I agree it sure is pointing to Jesus Christ and him crucified we share the bread of heaven the Body of Christ with one another and wash one anothers feet as Jesus commanded us to do . :HeartThrob: but many still only see Jesus as a man that come over 2000 years ago sadly and died and not the WORD OF GOD MADE FLESH , of both the son of man and the Son of God these are the images we many build upon one is a corruptible image and the other is and incorruptible image
and never a good idea to put down anyone whom is searching for truth , because Love this fruit of the Sprint, the perfect bond of unity and LOVE holds no ill will over anyone especially for their beliefs .
Col 3 13Bear with each other and forgive any complaint you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, for to this you were called as members of one body. And be thankful....
1 Corinthians 2 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
Paul's Proclamation
2 When I came to you, brothers and sisters, announcing the mystery of God to you, I did not come with brilliance of speech or wisdom. 2 I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 My speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not be based on human wisdom but on God's power.
Spiritual Wisdom
6 We do, however, speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written,
What no eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no human heart has conceived—
God has prepared these things for those who love him.
10 Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, since the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except his spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
14 But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, and yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. 16 For
who has known the Lord's mind,
that he may instruct him?
But we have the mind of Christ.
We all agree the Lord is saving all and He is the Lord of the dead and the living and He holds everything together
Col1 ...16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence....
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 8:58
"Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
the question is Jesus CHRIST the WORD OF GOD , RULING now or not ?
I do believe He is in some hearts
we know the sea is a dead sea many peoples tongues and nations ...8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat....
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
John 12:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
1 Thessalonians 5:10
He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.
If it is your time to know by the Spirit of Life , you will know and if not death still has some hold on you , because the dead know nothing about God , many are in the babes stages and are learning of Him , many have overcome the evil one and are the young men , and many are as fathers to turn the hearts of the children back to the Father by declaring the Lord Jesus Christ to them
...16Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God.
17And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous — to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Malachi 4:5
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Malachi 4:6
"He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse."
Matthew 3:3
This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for Him.'"
The world is a wilderness and a struggle by fire at night and a pillar and cloud by day and it was to only take a 3 days journey [ Jesus Christ 3 days working] and it took 40 years and still they had no rest , did not enter the body of Christ nor heaven opened to them , but died in their complaining to God in His help for them and disbelief , missing the things of the world / Egypt :sigh: and dying in their sins ..
Jesus Christ is our rest we enter though Him [head of the House of God and His glorified body and being the woman / true Church where the Wisdom of God conceives the sons of God and birth them and come out of her ...
the sabbath was made for mankind , not mankind made for the Sabbath the 7th day gen 2 The Seventh Day: God Rests
1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it,being HOLY because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made....
mark 2 The Lord of the Sabbath
...26During the high priesthood of Abiathar, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which was lawful only for the priests. And he gave some to his companions as well." 27Then Jesus told them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."...
Hebrews 4:8
Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.
Hebrews 4:10
For whoever enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.
Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."
Jesus heals on the Sabbath DAY HE judges what is right and makes a quick work in righteousness
HE is finishing up everything fast ..because He is the first day and last day and everything in between .
New Living Translation
For the LORD will carry out his sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality."
English Standard Version
for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."
Berean Study Bible
For the Lord will carry out His sentence on the earth with thoroughness and decisiveness."
Berean Literal Bible
For the Lord will perform the sentence He is concluding and bringing swiftly upon the earth."
New American Standard Bible
FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
King James Bible
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Christian Standard Bible
since the Lord will execute his sentence completely and decisively on the earth.
Contemporary English Version
The Lord will be quick and sure to do on earth what he has warned he will do."
Good News Translation
for the Lord will quickly settle his full account with the world."
Holman Christian Standard Bible
for the Lord will execute His sentence completely and decisively on the earth.
International Standard Version
For the Lord will carry out his plan decisively, bringing it to completion on the earth."
NET Bible
for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth completely and quickly."
New Heart English Bible
For he will fulfill the word and decisively in righteousness; because the Lord will carry out the word decisively on the earth."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He has cut the matter short and has cut it off; THE LORD JEHOVAH shall do it upon The Earth.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Lord will carry out his sentence on the land, completely and decisively."
New American Standard 1977
FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD UPON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
Jubilee Bible 2000
when the consumption comes to an end, righteousness shall overflow, because a short sentence will the Lord execute upon the earth.
King James 2000 Bible
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
American King James Version
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make on the earth.
American Standard Version
for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For he shall finish his word, and cut it short in justice; because a short word shall the Lord make upon the earth.
Darby Bible Translation
for [he] is bringing the matter to an end, and [cutting [it] short in righteousness; because] a cutting short of the matter will [the] Lord accomplish upon the earth.
English Revised Version
for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.
Webster's Bible Translation
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Weymouth New Testament
for the Lord will hold a reckoning upon the earth, making it efficacious and brief."
World English Bible
for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth."
Young's Literal Translation
for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.
HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE MAKING IT NEW NOW till GOD BE ALL IN ALL The Order of Resurrection
...27For "God has put everything under His feet." AND GIVE IT TO JESUS TO FINNISH IT UP .... THE LAST DAY everything is judged by the WORD spoken John 12 Belief and Unbelief
...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:
The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it....
Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 3:23
and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.
1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.
1 Corinthians 15:29
If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
Philippians 3:21
who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
Royal priesthood NOW , not some eon or eons later in that sense but from now on ,, those works of God are continuing without end in the Sabbath /holy DAY OF THE LORD ..
The Living Stone
...8and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the message—and to this they were appointed.
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy 11Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul. 12Conduct yourselves with such honor among the Gentiles that, though they slander you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day He visits us.....
There is always so much more , but this is long I add the scriptures to testify of His LIVING Word and Spirit working in us as the DAY and His body and glory of Light and Life though HIM to glorify the Living God .
Jesus knowing he was going to the cross to make the new covenant of Gods grace in effect , speaking to them as well as us being still under that first law covenant , that we are dead in sin and trespass .
but many died in faith as we are to also like Abraham's seed and consider our bodies as good as dead , so the promises come though Jesus Christ and wait on the Lord till He comes [ Gods promise revealed ] Jesus come to Saul / Paul and we also shall come in the same likened manner and hear His voice and live or be blinded by the Light fulfilling the prophecy in Isaiah , causing the blind to see and the seeing made blind , Saul / Paul was both
34Jesus answered, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all are alive."
39Some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you have spoken well!" 40And they did not dare to question Him any further.
Matthew 11:5
The blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and good news is preached to the poor.
Luke 7:22
So He replied, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.
John 9:6
When Jesus had said this, He spat on the ground, made some mud, and applied it to the man's eyes.
John 9:7
Then He told him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came back seeing.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.'
Isaiah 29:18
On that day the deaf will hear words of a book, And out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
Isaiah 32:3
Then the eyes of those who see will not be blinded, And the ears of those who hear will listen.
Isaiah 32:4
The mind of the hasty will discern the truth, And the tongue of the stammerers will hasten to speak clearly.
Isaiah 42:7
To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
Isaiah 42:16
"I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone."
Very powerful WORD and Spirit indeed ... :dsunny: :HeartThrob: