So what gives God the right to Judge us?

[sheila]

mine,too!

[rosered]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

darryl,
Thank you for the post.  You have described the God I worship.

mine,too!

Mine as well  ...........
I am convinced     that the good and evil  does  serve God    and give Him  ALL     the glory  , proving    both   in His two edged SWORD  OF TRUTH ..

MERCY IS THE VERY CORE  OF SPIRITUAL HEALING ..

and the mercy seat is on of those things     they did not speak of in Hebrews 9


The Earthly Tabernacle
...4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.


Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.


5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.


But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6When everything had been prepared in this way,


the priests entered regularly into the outer room to perform their sacred duties....

and many more things are yet to be revealed when   we can  bear them at  Gods  perfect  desire  to have it be made known fully ...

I DO BELIEVE  ALL WILL KNOW   THAT LOVE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING  that any one could ever possess  as being LIFE itself . .


This is eternal LIFE  THE PRAYER OF JESUS CHRIST TO humanity  John 17




   ...2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.



3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,



the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.



4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.... :HeartThrob:

[darryl]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

darryl,
Thank you for the post.  You have described the God I worship.

mine,too!

Mine as well  ...........
I am convinced     that the good and evil  does  serve God    and give Him  ALL     the glory  , proving    both   in His two edged SWORD  OF TRUTH ..

MERCY IS THE VERY CORE  OF SPIRITUAL HEALING ..

and the mercy seat is on of those things     they did not speak of in Hebrews 9


The Earthly Tabernacle
...4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.


Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.


5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.


But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6When everything had been prepared in this way,


the priests entered regularly into the outer room to perform their sacred duties....

and many more things are yet to be revealed when   we can  bear them at  Gods  perfect  desire  to have it be made known fully ...

I DO BELIEVE  ALL WILL KNOW   THAT LOVE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING  that any one could ever possess  as being LIFE itself . .


This is eternal LIFE  THE PRAYER OF JESUS CHRIST TO humanity  John 17




   ...2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.



3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,



the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.



4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.... :HeartThrob:

:dsunny: :banana:

[Shev]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

This puts me mind of the law of redemption and jubilee. In the first forty-nine years, anyone can be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer (which is the relationship of the elect and Christ), but in the fiftieth year, EVERYONE was set free, and all lands returned to the original owner.

I don't see forgiveness and judgment as the same thing, as far as the OP. Forgiveness is already assured by the cross. Judgment is the working of God's power and wisdom within each life to bring all to the image of His Blessed Son. Judgment and Mercy are two strands of the same cord.

[darryl]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

This puts me mind of the law of redemption and jubilee. In the first forty-nine years, anyone can be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer (which is the relationship of the elect and Christ), but in the fiftieth year, EVERYONE was set free, and all lands returned to the original owner.

I don't see forgiveness and judgment as the same thing, as far as the OP. Forgiveness is already assured by the cross. Judgment is the working of God's power and wisdom within each life to bring all to the image of His Blessed Son. Judgment and Mercy are two strands of the same cord.

:thumbsup: :dsunny: :banana:

[CST]

Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3).  We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8).  John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked]  to me...and at the very least, not "good"

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.

I disagree and I explained why above.  IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth.  But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5).  We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here.  Thanks.

Now you seem to be talking like an ETer.

I don't think applying such labels in this case serves any useful purpose.  Your statement that Jesus said those things for shock is of course your opinion, with which I disagree.  I think He was calling it correctly.  Also Paul says similar when not talking directly to unbelievers, so not apparently trying to "shock" anybody. 

Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.

I didn't say salvation is a doctrine.  That's why I don't typcially engage in ongoing convoluted, circular "arguments".  Because that's what they become.  If we don't agree, as long as we're both trying to understand our view from within the scriptures, that's fine, let's move on and we'll understand it better later.

You seem to be taking my label out of context. 'The thief comes only to kill, steal and destroy.' This is the Bible the thief, one would imagine is Satan. Satan doesn't create things, he destroys things he's not the father to anything in the way God is the father to all things. If some beings are not in fact of God and He is not there Father I can not see how UR can be true, no has no responsibility for things He didn't create. Not only that but anything that God didn't create is in opposition to Him as long as it exists because it is not part of His purpose and shouldn't things that have no part in God's purpose we can reasonable expect to pass away for good. If this includes people who are 'children of the Devil' than those people are doomed because God didn't come to save them or need to save them. They're not His problem. Since I believe they are His creation and responsibility, ie His children, I believe He intends to save them.

You didn't say 'salvation' was a doctrine but you seemed to be suggesting that UR was with equal weight to ET and ED for those who believe them. If I understood you correctly believing ET or ED and promoting it above and over UR is no obstacle for a person who believes any of them and has received faith of Jesus being saved in the first resurrection. I do not, cannot believe that.

Also it is written in the first epistle of John:

'If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;' (1 John 1:6) and 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.' (1 John 1:8,10)

This statement that if we deny the clear testimony of the Word of God, we make Him a liar and commit a very serious offense is a repeated theme of this epistle also referenced at:

'He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;' (1 John 2:4), plus 'I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.' (1 John 2:21)

John has already taught in his Gospel that Jesus has declared Himself to be the Truth. If John says things like 'the truth is not in him' or 'His word is not in us' it can mean nothing less that Jesus does not live in that person and they never received Him. If follows therefore that whatever they might claim they do not follow Jesus and have not received grace yet. Although it does initially continue, 'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.' (1 John 2:22) Which seems to rather limit the offense rather beyond what the original examples suggested.

It also declares: 'If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.' (1 John 4:16) A lot of ET and ED advocates would seem to be liars given what they hope and expect to happen to those brothers (and sister) that they would not have happen to themselves.

At the end of the epistle John returns to his original theme when he tells us: 'He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son.' (1 John 5:10) And this chapter has as part of it's conclusion, 'If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.' (1 John 5:16) I find that a scary passage even as an advocate of UR, not that there is a sin that is mortal necessarily but that John does not ask the reader to pray those who commit that sin (if I've understood correctly). That sounds scary it can't be above God's ability to forgive so why not pray for those that commit it. Or better if it's so bad pray that it is never committed. Does John say what that sin is? Hard to tell, in context making God out to be a liar by denying His testimony seems  a good candidate.

This is a problem I have with the idea that there are little and big differences in doctrine and it doesn't matter which ones you believe as long as you believe the important one about salvation through Jesus Christ. No, it seems to me that the Bible teaches here that if you hold any doctrine that would be contrary to what He has actually revealed and testified too, you would be guilty of the sin of making Him out a liar (which He obviously isn't) and do not have the Word or Truth in you. This is what the Bible teaches, from the beginning of his next epsitle:

'Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.' (2 John 1:9-11)

To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.

I've not read all the thread, just responding to OP.

I've come to see judgement more as a 'setting straight' then as a condemning thing. On a worldwide as well as on a personal level.

I've also come to see forgiveness of sin has mainly to do with setting free of sin. Traditionally, sin is seen as something God holds against us (even though He provides a way to forgive). I believe Jesus showed us that He came to save sinners, save them from their sin. Speaking of sin as a sickness, and of Himself as a Doctor. And that same Jesus is the one who is appointed to be the Judge of the World.

I quote/translate from a Dutch universalist writer:
'What would it mean if their would be no wrath of God? It would mean that God would leave the earth to what people make of it. The evil would go on and death would have the last say, and God would consent to it. The wrath of God means that He doesn't consent to this, that He doesn't consent leaving the earth and all that lives on it to evil. He maintains his purpose with His creation. Everything is about that purpose. The deliverance of Creation of everything that harms it. The wrath of God is completely at het service of this deliverance, that is: His saving justice.'

Interesting, I like much of that. Though I'm not sure at all that the phrase 'wrath of God' is actually equal to judgement in Biblical terms.

I know we arent to be too hard on anyone...but, it's a bit irritating when 'hellists' continue to push the hellist belief in everlasting torment even after being confronted with all the UR evidence in Scripture...when I was confronted with this evidence i changed track pretty much immediately...I changed from being a hellist, to doubting it, within the space of a couple of weeks..it bothers me when the hellist stubbornly hold onto their evil idea of God even after seeing the evidence for UR..I cannot help being bothered, I'm only human..in a sense they are misrepresenting Jesus, whom i love dearly cause they insist Jesus will torment precious human beings forever...I can only pray for them, if they will not agree after hearing the UR evidence...no point getting upset with them.

Oh, snap! I most definitely agree it's why I get annoyed when jabcat, to me, seems to suggest that ET and ED advocates have a first resurrection ticket to Heaven despite the fact they have presented god/Jesus in the most appalling light because they accept Him as Saviour of them, not of the World, of them.

[CST]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

darryl,
Thank you for the post.  You have described the God I worship.

mine,too!

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

darryl,
Thank you for the post.  You have described the God I worship.

mine,too!

Mine as well  ...........
I am convinced     that the good and evil  does  serve God    and give Him  ALL     the glory  , proving    both   in His two edged SWORD  OF TRUTH ..

MERCY IS THE VERY CORE  OF SPIRITUAL HEALING ..

and the mercy seat is on of those things     they did not speak of in Hebrews 9


The Earthly Tabernacle
...4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.


Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.


5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.


But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6When everything had been prepared in this way,


the priests entered regularly into the outer room to perform their sacred duties....

and many more things are yet to be revealed when   we can  bear them at  Gods  perfect  desire  to have it be made known fully ...

I DO BELIEVE  ALL WILL KNOW   THAT LOVE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING  that any one could ever possess  as being LIFE itself . .


This is eternal LIFE  THE PRAYER OF JESUS CHRIST TO humanity  John 17




   ...2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.



3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,



the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.



4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.... :HeartThrob:

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

This puts me mind of the law of redemption and jubilee. In the first forty-nine years, anyone can be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer (which is the relationship of the elect and Christ), but in the fiftieth year, EVERYONE was set free, and all lands returned to the original owner.

I don't see forgiveness and judgment as the same thing, as far as the OP. Forgiveness is already assured by the cross. Judgment is the working of God's power and wisdom within each life to bring all to the image of His Blessed Son. Judgment and Mercy are two strands of the same cord.

Wow, people here are feeling incredibly optimistic of late. Wish I could share it I've tried it in the past. I've thought about things like when Death goes into the Lake of Fire the Book of Life might well get very full because it says that the last enemy to be destroyed is Death and once it is it cannot keep anyone in it's power and thus in a condition that might keep them out of the Book of Life. I also remember that in 1 Samuel it is recorded that when Saul was appointed King of Israel (yes, I know) a number of people protested and after he had his first victory his supporters declared, '"Who is it that said, 'Shall Saul reign over us?' Bring the men, that we may put them to death."' (1 Samuel 11:12) and that Saul responded '"Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has wrought deliverance in Israel."' (1 Samuel 11:13) now I'm aware Saul turned out to be a poor king and this decision seems not only to have been merciful but somewhat fair given that one victory (especially one actually won by God) does not a good king make but I nevertheless can't help noticing no-one ever seems to fault Saul for this particular decision and thus it makes be wonder what would happen if God took this principle and applied it to His ultimate victory over evil.

[jabcat]

...get so annoyed...

To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.

I didn't say that either.  My belief more accurately is, that even if some doctrines are incorrect, if the Holy Spirit has drawn them to believe on Jesus as Savior, they are in Christ.

[sheila]

the Victory is won of God through Christ..and He turns Saul's into Paul's.

[jabcat]

the Victory is won of God through Christ..and He turns Saul's into Paul's.

absolutely  :thumbsup:

[sheila]

the Gospel is a two edged sword..salvation unto all men...but the preaching of repentance and ed unto the fallen angels unless they repent

   Jesus preached to both [spirits bound in prison house of this earth,awaiting judgement.] Men have not understood this....and wrong-

fully divided with the sword..applying LOF and ed to men....... He cam to save men..and tell demons to repent from their evil/wicked works

    Paul's ministry unto the little dogs..........demon possesed gentiles. we have to seperate the big dog[evil possesing spirit] from the little

dogs[men they possess]. at the 'word of God/Christ" with faith..what was formerly declared unclean...is clean[possesed men]

     Just as Saul did not wait upon Samuel...and offered unlawful/strange fire,so,too,Saul/Paul offered unlawful sacrifice of judgement

and condemnation of those atoned for by Christ.... God desires.mercy over sacrifice......Healing and restoration of man over

  eternal destruction.

      so et and ed...though the little children have mis-applied the correct 'edges' of the sword are still a flaming cherub guarding the way

to the tol..but they must suffer the little children to come unto Him..for the little children's sins/missing the mark are forgiven for

  His sake. they mirror..communion with the natural..cracker/grapejuice..preach repentance/condemnation on those who refuse to

repent and accept Christ[the prince of this world killed Him to seize His vineyard}  the problem is the people in them may find themselves

in blind/folds[sheep-pens] unless they learn to hear His voice and He lead them unto living waters and abundant pastures.TOL

[GerWat]

God doesn't judge us.  He just wants to be our Father.

See everything under "G" on this page: http://www.rockofyork.co.uk/on-the-pulse/

[eaglesway]

God definitely judges all. His judgement will be swallowed up by His mercy, but in the meantime He, as a loving Father and as our Creator, will bring us to accountabilty as He teaces us His ways.

His judgment is composed of several elements and mercy is one of them.

Even when God judges us He is merciful ....otherwise we would be consumed (Lamentations 3:16-23; Psalm 107 entire)

God's judgment causes discernment, He judges us to show us the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13)

God is not "judging" every minute or every little thing. He is patient and merciful. (2 Peter 3:9; Ex 34:6)

God receives our acknowledgment of our sins as an acceptable sacrifice.(Luke 18:11-14).

No one needs to fear the judgment of God because ultimately, all judgment leads to awareness, humility, repentence and reconciliation. But fear has torment, and fear lives where ignorance and unrighteousness reign. The answer to such is not to cut the judgment of God out of the gospel. It is to proclaim His patient mercy and His willingness to provide grace to all who seek Him, and deliverance to the humble whatever their struggles.

Predators and idolators Beware, God is not mocked. As a man sows so shalll He also reap. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you so to the Spirit you will reap ever increasing life. :o)

If all you can sow is, "God have mercy on me a sinner"- God who sees the secrets of our hearts will receive us into eternal dwelling places, and grant grace as we stay honest and humble before Him.

[chester-blowfold]

ET =
UR =
ED =

[Dandelion]

John 4:

21"Believe Me, woman," Jesus replied, "a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

25The woman said, "I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us."

26Jesus answered, "I who speak to you am He."

From a different 'angle' so to speak, God must judge, because we must all be aligned in truth. God is truth....the measurement by which all is judged, as He is the great "I AM"; the Alpha and the Omega; the Creator of all things. He alone has set all in motion, and He alone will bring all things to Himself, at the end of time, when death is no more.

To be able to come to God, He will bring us to this 'path' of Spirit and Truth. And, that path will lead us all home, to Him.

So, to do this, He must know our hearts, and, yes, judge where we are along the path, and then in His love, transform us. I, personally, believe He does this with our consent, as I do believe in 'free will'. We must repent. It is not always an easy process....this transformation....but it is a beautiful one.

And the 'perks' are eternal life with Him.

:cloud9:

D.

[CST]

...get so annoyed...

To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.

I didn't say that either.  My belief more accurately is, that even if some doctrines are incorrect, if the Holy Spirit has drawn them to believe on Jesus as Savior, they are in Christ.

Hmm, you lifting everything I say out of context by editing my replies the way you're doing creates some confusing results. I didn't say you said that, I said you seemed, to me (not the 'too me') to be saying that because you didn't think that UR was the Gospel (which you did state) a person who didn't believe UR (like an ET or ED advocate as they'd be the only people covered here) but did accept the Gospel as you understand it:

I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again.  Paul said that is the Gospel.  UR is not The Gospel.  It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ.  That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime.  But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.

Fine, what about one of our favourites: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.' (John 3:16-17)

Is that the Gospel also? Or is it not? Now obviously that goes a little further but this is sufficient for my point. UR, to me, begins with two questions which I'm sure you've heard before:

1. Does 'the World' actually mean 'the World'?

Basically is the 'our' in your sentence actually everyone? Did Jesus die for the sins of everyone?

2.Was what Jesus did sufficient to be effective in that goal?

That doesn't need much rephrasing. The answer to both these questions is binary. Either Jesus was crucified for everyone or He wasn't, either the crucifixion holds the power to effect this salvation for everyone or it doesn't. I was of the impression that the position of UR advocates like us is that the answer to both these questions is 'Yes' and that the Bible teaches this. But you're saying this isn't the Gospel even though the 'Gospel' is the good news and if UR is not true than in fact the Gospel is very bad news for an awful lot of people who for no real fault of there own (not any above and other other people) God didn't choose them for receiving His gift of salvation. How can you not consider UR to be part of the Gospel when the question of whether it is true, over ET or ED, very much changes the meaning and scope of that Gospel?

To me there is one true doctrine which has been revealed by God though perhaps not without ambiguity in certain parts. But that True doctrine, revealed by Jesus and in, is also what John refers to when he says to reject any who preach otherwise. But this doctrine is True and thus equal to fact. I am aware we can't know all the correct parts of the True doctrine yet and the Holy Spirit is working it out within us as we grow. But I have a great deal of difficulty not seeing accepting UR as co-extensive with accepting the True Gospel given that other understanding not only change the meaning as mentioned above but misrepresent that which you should be receiving.

God definitely judges all. His judgement will be swallowed up by His mercy, but in the meantime He, as a loving Father and as our Creator, will bring us to accountabilty as He teaces us His ways.

His judgment is composed of several elements and mercy is one of them.

Even when God judges us He is merciful ....otherwise we would be consumed (Lamentations 3:16-23; Psalm 107 entire)

God's judgment causes discernment, He judges us to show us the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13)

God is not "judging" every minute or every little thing. He is patient and merciful. (2 Peter 3:9; Ex 34:6)

God receives our acknowledgment of our sins as an acceptable sacrifice.(Luke 18:11-14).

No one needs to fear the judgment of God because ultimately, all judgment leads to awareness, humility, repentence and reconciliation. But fear has torment, and fear lives where ignorance and unrighteousness reign. The answer to such is not to cut the judgment of God out of the gospel. It is to proclaim His patient mercy and His willingness to provide grace to all who seek Him, and deliverance to the humble whatever their struggles.

Predators and idolators Beware, God is not mocked. As a man sows so shalll He also reap. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you so to the Spirit you will reap ever increasing life. :o)

If all you can sow is, "God have mercy on me a sinner"- God who sees the secrets of our hearts will receive us into eternal dwelling places, and grant grace as we stay honest and humble before Him.

Welcome back, EW! You have been missed on this thread your absence has been noticed.

ET =
UR =
ED =

ET, the doctrine of Everlasting Torment that teaches that at judgement God will send all the unrepentant wicked to suffer indescribable agonies endlessly.
ED, Everlasting Destruction, the doctrine that teaches that instead God will annihilate all the wicked ones instead of the above.
UR, Universal Reconciliation, which teaches the God will (in His own God time) save everyone any bring them out of whateversuffers His necessary and righteous judgements inflict

[jabcat]

...get so annoyed...

To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.

I didn't say that either.  My belief more accurately is, that even if some doctrines are incorrect, if the Holy Spirit has drawn them to believe on Jesus as Savior, they are in Christ.

Hmm, you lifting everything I say out of context by editing my replies the way you're doing creates some confusing results. I didn't say you said that, I said you seemed, to me (not the 'too me') to be saying that because you didn't think that UR was the Gospel (which you did state) a person who didn't believe UR (like an ET or ED advocate as they'd be the only people covered here) but did accept the Gospel as you understand it:

I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again.  Paul said that is the Gospel.  UR is not The Gospel.  It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ.  That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime.  But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.

Fine, what about one of our favourites: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.' (John 3:16-17)

Is that the Gospel also? Or is it not? Now obviously that goes a little further but this is sufficient for my point. UR, to me, begins with two questions which I'm sure you've heard before:

1. Does 'the World' actually mean 'the World'?

Basically is the 'our' in your sentence actually everyone? Did Jesus die for the sins of everyone?

2.Was what Jesus did sufficient to be effective in that goal?

That doesn't need much rephrasing. The answer to both these questions is binary. Either Jesus was crucified for everyone or He wasn't, either the crucifixion holds the power to effect this salvation for everyone or it doesn't. I was of the impression that the position of UR advocates like us is that the answer to both these questions is 'Yes' and that the Bible teaches this. But you're saying this isn't the Gospel even though the 'Gospel' is the good news and if UR is not true than in fact the Gospel is very bad news for an awful lot of people who for no real fault of there own (not any above and other other people) God didn't choose them for receiving His gift of salvation. How can you not consider UR to be part of the Gospel when the question of whether it is true, over ET or ED, very much changes the meaning and scope of that Gospel?

To me there is one true doctrine which has been revealed by God though perhaps not without ambiguity in certain parts. But that True doctrine, revealed by Jesus and in, is also what John refers to when he says to reject any who preach otherwise. But this doctrine is True and thus equal to fact. I am aware we can't know all the correct parts of the True doctrine yet and the Holy Spirit is working it out within us as we grow. But I have a great deal of difficulty not seeing accepting UR as co-extensive with accepting the True Gospel given that other understanding not only change the meaning as mentioned above but misrepresent that which you should be receiving.

I'm not going to go in circles, nit-picking things to death just for the sake of it.  You said exactly what I quoted, including something I didn't quote, that those who don't believe in UR are not in Christ.

I believe in UR.  Still, the SIMPLICITY of the Gospel is Jesus Christ, crucified, risen again. 

I believe it's very clear in scripture that even those who have misunderstandings about many things, including eternal torment, can still be in Christ - no, absolutely are in Christ - if the Holy Spirit has drawn them and they've been given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  That's His work and determination, not ours.    Then more is revealed as we go.  Some in this lifetime, some, probably most, in the next age.  I don't believe it's a tenable scriptural position to say one must believe in UR to be saved, be a believer, be a redeemed blood-washed saint.  If you want to believe that, that's of course your prerogative.  But I've thought long about it and am solid on my belief.  I don't believe only UR'ers are children of God (in the saved sense), and I personally believe advocating that UR'ers are the "only ones" is not helpful to say the least.  I don't believe that, Gary doesn't believe that, and that's not the position of this board.  If you've changed your stance that ET and ED believers can indeed be in Christ, that's good.

I'm not going to go in circles with you and nit-pick everything to death.  While here we all need to please stay within the confines and spirit of posting guidelines.  It's listed right at the top of the board home page under Posting Guidelines and probably a good refresher :)  Thanks.

[eaglesway]

Everyone who confesses Jesus as their Lord and means it, and bellieves that God has raised Him from the dead, is in Christ.

Some walk in the flesh. Some walk in the Spirit. Some are members of churches that are doctrinally confused. Some belong to churches that hold doctrines of the devil, but at present they do not understand it, being held in the terrible grip of religion and legalism.

Everyone who is in Christ is held to a different standard, but only the Lord knows the secrets of our hearts. We are given certain injunctons- works for which anyone who claims to be in Christ still doing them ought to be held accountable for the purpose of reconiliation and restoration if possible..... in extreme cases certain conduct can result in being separated from the protective covering of the community under His Lordship.

All of these things are self evident through out the scriptures, and they require discernment, wisdom, understanding and good judgment.

These things do not come by intellectual argumentation. They come through discipleship, laboring in the word and in the spirit, rightly dividing the word of truth- and being rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit.

Everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their sensibilities to distinguish good from evil.

Constant use in the word and the Spirit and the walk in the yoke bearing the cross is the pathway to service and maturity.

"You do not know what Spirit you are of"......

It is possible to be in Christ- as the disciples were; Be immature- as the disciples were; and to not kno the Spirit you ought to walk in- as the dsciples did.

Act wisely toward outsiders, redeeming the time. 6Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4

In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.Mt 5

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. ..........

      20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work......

The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


We are members of a wide house.

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

How do we know the difference between what is the wisdom from above and what is the wisdom from below?

it is the same as the difference between the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Different trees produce different fruit even as they use the same words. Just as there are two wells in each of us there are also two trees. The one whose shade under which we dwell is the one that grows and becomes ascendant in our character...."knowledge puffs up, love builds up".... the hollow head of the tare betrays it as an imitation of the wheat, and still- the wheat must be beaten, to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the chaff burned with unquenchable fire, before the Lord will gather it into the storehouse.

Again, constant use is required. "Come unto be, and take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your soul."

"Blessed is the man whose delight is the law of the Lord and in it He des meditate day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the streams of living water, whose leaf does not whither, bearing fruit in season" Psalm 2

In revelation we see the river coming from beneath the throne and beside it trees of life grow, bearing fruit for the healing of the nations. There is no tree of the knowledge of good and evil growing along that river.

"The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned." Is 50:4

Jesus spoke about those who make confident assertions about things they know nothing of. In this wide house such people are vessels unfit for holy use, but they have their purpose. Paul said that God uses heretics to make manifest those who are approved.

Manifest to who?

Those who seek His face.

Manifest how? by the character of Christ in their humble service.

On the surface of the the diamond are facets and sharp edges. They glint and gleam and cut. But it is down in the core of the stone that the prism separates the colors of light and His hidden glory dwells- not as knowledge, but as wisdom and understanding, and a spirit of reconciliation that seeks to heal and redeem.

All this requires judgment. But it is God's judgment anf He does not judge like men do, just to make evildoers pay. His judgment separates the pure from the impure and purges the mixture out so that the Lord receives an acceptable offering. Separating the spiritual from the carnal requires more than knowledge and study. It requires experience in the spirit, walking in the fire, and doctrines only matter as they are manifestations of light integrated into the wisdom that is from above - a seed whose harvest is righteousness- full of mercy and good fruits.

[jabcat]

very good post John.   :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

God definitely judges all. His judgement will be swallowed up by His mercy, but in the meantime He, as a loving Father and as our Creator, will bring us to accountabilty as He teaces us His ways.

His judgment is composed of several elements and mercy is one of them.

Even when God judges us He is merciful ....otherwise we would be consumed (Lamentations 3:16-23; Psalm 107 entire)

God's judgment causes discernment, He judges us to show us the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13)

God is not "judging" every minute or every little thing. He is patient and merciful. (2 Peter 3:9; Ex 34:6)

God receives our acknowledgment of our sins as an acceptable sacrifice.(Luke 18:11-14).

No one needs to fear the judgment of God because ultimately, all judgment leads to awareness, humility, repentence and reconciliation. But fear has torment, and fear lives where ignorance and unrighteousness reign. The answer to such is not to cut the judgment of God out of the gospel. It is to proclaim His patient mercy and His willingness to provide grace to all who seek Him, and deliverance to the humble whatever their struggles.

Predators and idolators Beware, God is not mocked. As a man sows so shalll He also reap. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you so to the Spirit you will reap ever increasing life. :o)

If all you can sow is, "God have mercy on me a sinner"- God who sees the secrets of our hearts will receive us into eternal dwelling places, and grant grace as we stay honest and humble before Him.

amen.  As I understand and believe;  I believe God's judgments lead to mercy..but it is "a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God".  Many of our perceptions surely vary, but there is only one God and He does not change.  God is our daddy, but He's not a fuzzy, senile old pappy who doesn't have the heart to discipline either His children, or the devil's children to being them into the fold.     There is indeed a benefit to believing on Him now. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."      We are unworthy, and we should be humbled by it and give Him praise.  But if He has chosen to give faith to believe, Jesus said to "rejoice that your name is written in the book of life".  Our attitudes need to be of humility, not boasting in our own works, but in the cross of Christ.

       As brother Eby often writes, He will do whatever it takes to bring us to a place of repentance.  Some in this life, I believe most in the next.  Many may almost instantly recognize Him as Lord and Savior.  Others, it seems our Lord addresses, during a time when unbelievers experience age-during correction.  Only He knows what each needs. 

       

Matthew 25:41
"Depart from Me, you cursed ones, into that aionian fire... and these shall go away into a cutting-off age lasting."
(Diaglott)

Matthew 25:41
"And these He will dismiss into a LONG CORRECTION."
(The Bible in Modern English by Farrar Fenton)

Matthew 25:41
"These shall go away into age-abiding correction."
(Rotherham's New Testament)

Matthew 25:41
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during."
(Young's Literal Translation)

As quoted in a Gary Amirault article, "when looking at those words in the Greek.. those..references turn out to be 'age-during correction."

God has the "right" to judge because He is the I AM and we're to bow before Him.  And we will - now, or later.        J. Preston Eby writes;  "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with weapons that are mighty through God. You have to make war on the carnal mind and the fleshly nature with fire, divine fire, that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD I-S A CONSUMING FIRE! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-conquering cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

[chester-blowfold]

Which churches hold doctrines of the Devil?

[chester-blowfold]

Thanks CST.

[eaglesway]

Some fear the judgment of God because they struggle with sin.

God is not judging the hapless sinner in the same way He judges deliberate predators. Some of us find it hard to believe that there are people who deliberately reject God and murder, rape, steal, torture and oppress with cold intelligent willfulness.

We try to remove the judgment of God from the scriptures for our own sakes, stumblers and strugllers we are- but we do not need to.

Paul says in Romans 7, "So with my mind I serve the law of God but with my flesh I serve the law of sin"

God understands the struggles of those who believe in Him yet still struggle with the flesh. All believers still struggle with the flesh and the carnal mind in some measure.

But there are different worlds.

There is a world in which people are ignorant of what we understand- but still they are "without excuse" because God's eternal power and divine nature are clearly displayed in the things He has made. (Rom 1) They will be judged by the exposure of the secrets of their hearts, their conscience either accusing or excusing them (Rom 2)

There is a world in which people actually kno God but willfully reject Him and pursue evil of the deepest kinds because they believe God can be mocked and evaded and they have chosen to reap now by force and deceit. (Rom 1 James 5:1 Luke 6:24)

There is a world in which people constantly justify themselves and subvert the truth f their selfishness beneath a glaze of goodness, religion and philosophy. To them the very idea that they need a Savior, or are sinners in anyway- is utterly repulsive and they must be shown who they are because they will never admit it of themselves.

Some of these folks will enter the age to come with the "worm" of their soul as it was woven through their lives still in need of death.

"In that Day I will slay Leviathan, the twisting fleeing serpent(worm) with the sword of my mouth. In that Day, sing of it- a vineyard, I water it day and night".

In every case the judgment of God is the sword of His mouth, "dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart" so that "every hidden thing will be brought to light".

Then the knee bows.... the tongue confesses "Jesus Christ is Lord" because He who is our judge is our Savior. He who tries the reigns and the hearts in every person has the right because He died for every person, loves every person, and will find every person, whether lost in lies or hardened in sin, and He will recover them.

[rosered]

 :dsunny:     :HeartThrob:

Amen  !!! pride  being the subtle serpents   wisdom and NOTHING is wiser than GOD   ...

  1 JOHN 3 Children of God
1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God.

And that is what we are!

The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.

2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed.

We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.

5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.

6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.

7 Little children,b let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.

8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.


This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him;

he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished:

Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Love One Another
(John 13:31-35; Romans 12:9-13)
11This is the message you have heard from the beginning:

We should love one another.

12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own deeds were evil, while those of his brother were righteous. 13So do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you.

14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.

16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth.

19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things.

21Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God,


22and we will receive from Him whatever we ask, because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing in His sight.


23And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.


Truth is  praying for your enemies  , loving them anyways is    so easy to say   and  hard to do ,  trying not to be angry   with them  , when they just keep taking

advantage of your kindness and treat    you like your  easy prey and stupid   , stealing your joy  and peace   you have in the Lord  and your own personal items    from your garage and barn and  tool shed  , like you are a open store to shop from   what ever they want , whenever they want  ... and lie on you and    boast    great things ,  a heart of covetousness     and  it does bring  judgment     :sigh:


I have been though this  trial of faith many times over now   many many years   and admit it has been hard to battle   off the  bad /evil feelings  ,   I know it must be pride  still in me somewhere   , because  this   is very frustrating     till that    finally ends      in literal  death    , either way it is   silly  stuff , but can make your heart hard and loving your enemies and praying for them   is just now working    for the good , by being able to  help them even , but that is not even enough , they are like the horse leech it is never enough !!   proverbs 30

32Do not covet, lest you be despised, and do not stretch your hand to your mouth in depravity.

33From the fat of the milk butter comes forth, but if you squeeze your hand upon wheat, blood will come forth, so from contention among people judgment goes forth.

I KNOW GOD PROVIDES    everything   and some things are just not important     at all    , but robber and thieves spirits   whom feel they are entitled to   everything and everyone  ,   I know about that .

I know whatever  judgment comes by the Lord is justified     and deserving of correction   ,    growing   in spiritual maturity is a  painful  process .

and just as in all things  in life and death      saying it   is  easy  and so very hard to do , indeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is  WEAK      .