I mean nobody asked to be born and in a lot of cases you may want a different God in your life.
If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
Yep.. it's His world.. He's simply (imo) letting the ability to make choices (albeit thankfully limited) a side shoot of thinking ability, to run its course.. because it will prove Him right about all things. What He is designing and building I believe far surpasses any of our fondest dreams.. and it is perfect in every way, for every one.. we're simply learning good from evil, a necessary foundation (imo) lesson.
Everyone judging what is good and what is evil.. well, that's what we have now, with all its death and suffering. History is not a pretty picture.
:Peace2:
the apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15 . 'Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst'. Please notice Paul says I AM the worst of sinners...according to the Strong's Concordance the word for AM that Paul uses here, in Greek, is the verb 'eimi' : I exist, I am (Original Word: εἰμί ) ..Paul uses this VERB ''eimi' in the PRESENT TENSE'..NOT PAST TENSE...eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood. Plainly, Paul is saying he is currently a sinner...Paul NEVER taught 'sinless perfection'.We are not greater than Paul so we too are currently 'sinners' saved through the blood of Christ, but yes, we are indeed 'saints'.In our flesh, we are sinners but in our spirit we are saints.The 'old man', the fleshly nature, is born in sin but when we are born again we receive the Spirit of God and become Saints. even though the 'old man' still dwells within us. The doctrine of sinless perfection leads to spiritual pride...knowing we are sinners keeps us on our knees before a Holy God..seeking his forgiveness and cleansing. :banana: :dsunny:
If God doesn't Judge us where do we get our morals?
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 01:22:11 AM
If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
So far as I know none of those things have sentience and can answer back despite the poetic illustrations given in the Bible. In reality if God can do as He wishes to the beings and things He creates why can't we do as we wish to the beings and things we create. Why can't we create our children as appallingly as we wish. Are they not to some degree our workmanship as well as His? Of course that leaves us in a nonsense position because that argument stands for nothing on it's own. This question only really comes up because of ET anyway. We suspect that God's 'judgement' in this case is unjust so we challenge the right of such a being to judge us in our mind. Once you take it out of the equation and stop seeing God as this being who's simply writing down all our bad deeds to condemn us for them later, if we stop seeing that as the be all and end all of God and our relationship with Him being such a problem. God's 'judgments' are to help us anyway and I expect further us in directions we already want to go but can't make ourselves get there.
Quote from: Cristina100 on August 26, 2016, 03:40:53 PM
If God doesn't Judge us where do we get our morals?
Quite, which is why such questions tend to touch on the modern Euthypho dilemma, the question of God commands what is right (moral) because if is right or is what God commands right because He commands it? (the original has pious for right)
Obviously the second is a major problem because just because God doesn't command us to sacrifice our children, He could if He wished and it would be right for Him to do so and right because He told us to do it. An unacceptable proposition.
The problem with the first position is that is makes moral something greater than God - another unacceptable proposition.
The solution here would seem to be to remember that God created the world for His purposes, He won't command things that are morally wrong because they would oppose His purposes and thus be irrational. You just have to accept morality is dependent entirely on God's design for this world and has no meaning outside it.
Quote from: CST on August 26, 2016, 07:19:42 PM
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 01:22:11 AM
If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
So far as I know none of those things have sentience and can answer back despite the poetic illustrations given in the Bible. In reality if God can do as He wishes to the beings and things He creates why can't we do as we wish to the beings and things we create. Why can't we create our children as appallingly as we wish. Are they not to some degree our workmanship as well as His? Of course that leaves us in a nonsense position because that argument stands for nothing on it's own.
Sorry this did not make sense to you, CST. I was using the argument to point out God created us, and therefore we belong to him. I was certainly not saying we are songs, books, or clay pots, or that such things are literally comparable to us. They were all supposed to be metaphors, symbols of the relationship between a creator and a created thing.
Here is one that may make more sense to you:
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2
"I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3
You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4
Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
5
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6)
Jesus said the 'word that He speak to us will judge you on the last day" if we keep His commandments.......
Look! Father and Jesus by=passed condemning mankind in favour of mercy and healing of man.
John 8;15 Ye judge after the flesh..I judge no man. the Father judges no man.......now if He did desire to judge
His judgement would be true. sin in the flesh was condemned under the law...He made atonement..we reckon our body good as
dead because of it. IT's all about man's spirit. If a man won't recieve the goodnews..they shake the dust off their feet..for the man
is still in the fleshly natural man condition and is not spiritually quicked...either not their time etc..but you don't call fire down on
their heads[sons of thunder rebuke] each in his order.now these were people of Israel[covenant people/not non-covenant people]
now judgement begins with the church and the 'teachers'..and strangers have shepherded the flock. again teaching eternal
condemnation..
what is judged? son of perdition=satan dwelling in man's flesh imitating God in these eternal hellfire condemnation doctrines/
sin in the flesh of man is condemned....Babylon ,Prince of this world..false prophets carnal/beast
.the church should be quickened of the spirit..observing Jesus words/commands and following
the Holy spirit's commands. All men shall recieve the free gift of eternal life through the spirit of Christ..whether they be quickened
in this life..to help serve..or when their spirit returns unto God. all mortal flesh will return to the dust. Flesh and blood can not
inherit and never will.
grace is leaven hid in 3 measures of flour. Just as Israel was bound up in disobedience..so too christendom..and thus comes to
the 3rd measure ALL MEN GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE IN THE SPIRIT. No flesh shall boast. The Lord alone shall be exalted in that day
No-one deserves GRACE and a FREE gift of eternal life.
Moses and Jesus displayed if the wicked one threw down a man like a serpent[sinner] God could pick Him up again by His hand.
the sign of the leper hand that come forth from the bosom fold of His garment..and when returned come forth again clean
also shows us this beautiful spiritual truth....the clean and unclean beasts coming down on the sheet/slayed and then gone back up
shows this also...even 3 times/three measures till all.....it is all about the spirit...the promised seed is eternal life in the spirit
the flesh counts for nothing
I think we should all avoid doubting the integrity or benevolence of someone who has sent His only son to die for mankind.
the earth helps the woman..our earthly vessels hold spiritual seed of the woman[the earth and the sea give up their 'dead" unless a kernal
of wheat fall to the earth and die..it remains alone. Adam's spirit is God's spiritual seed[see Adam a son of God]
...if a brother die..law[of love] says brother-in-law marriage to raise up the seed for the dead brother. Christ was not ashamed to
call man His brothers. because the little children[spirit seed] were partakers of flesh and blood,so,too He likewise partook.
thus the RESURRECTION is spiritual..and the spirit of man is what is truly redeemed.[flesh and blood can not inherit]......the
redeemed spirit seed is immortal. the flesh counts for nothing. as the POTTER who forms with His hands...and a pot[clay vessel/body]
is 'marred/by sin' in His hands...so,too....He has power to make of the same lump[man] a vessel of honour........
there is a spirit jewel in the pot..something valueable...if a man drops a beautiful pearl in the mud..he does not overly despise it
but picks it up and cleans it off.
those quickened now He desires we expierence the life in the spirit more abundantly..and get control over the vessel to conduct it
in honor..and rule over the sin/marr of our vessels..that the life in the spirit be manifested..but the flesh still counts for nothing.......
it is really the concern of the spirit..that LOVE be expressed......through the vessel.
So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.
Personally I understand the question, but I don't believe we should linger on it. Instead, I believe we're to humble ourselves before His hand, and as Job said, "even if you slay me I will trust You".
Isaiah 45
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
8 "You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it.
9 "Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'The potter has no hands'?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to a mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.
beautiful post Jabcat!
Quote from: sheila on August 27, 2016, 03:54:44 AM
beautiful post Jabcat!
Thank you :friendstu:
For me it's a battle of the will, part of taking up our cross and following. (Pretty constant for this particular knucklehead. :o )
Amen , Isaiah 45 is a beautiful Truth and perfect James !!!
Proverbs 25 11Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances. 12Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine gold Is a wise reprover to a listening ear....
God bless .... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 27, 2016, 03:03:52 AM
So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.
true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.
Quote from: rosered on August 27, 2016, 05:23:19 AM
Amen , Isaiah 45 is a beautiful Truth and perfect James !!!
Proverbs 25 11Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances. 12Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine gold Is a wise reprover to a listening ear....
God bless .... :HeartThrob:
:handshake: blessings
Psalm 27Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
27 By David. Jehovah [is] my light and my salvation, Whom do I fear? Jehovah [is] the strength of my life, Of whom am I afraid?
2 When evil doers come near to me to eat my flesh, My adversaries and mine enemies to me, They have stumbled and fallen.
3 Though a host doth encamp against me, My heart doth not fear, Though war riseth up against me, In this I [am] confident.
4 One [thing] I asked of Jehovah -- it I seek. My dwelling in the house of Jehovah, All the days of my life, To look on the pleasantness of Jehovah, And to inquire in His temple.
5 For He hideth me in a tabernacle in the day of evil, He hideth me in a secret place of His tent, On a rock he raiseth me up.
6 And now, lifted up is my head, Above my enemies -- my surrounders, And I sacrifice in His tent sacrifices of shouting, I sing, yea, I sing praise to Jehovah.
7 Hear, O Jehovah, my voice -- I call, And favour me, and answer me.
8 To Thee said my heart `They sought my face, Thy face, O Jehovah, I seek.'
9 Hide not Thy face from me, Turn not aside in anger Thy servant, My help Thou hast been. Leave me not, nor forsake me, O God of my salvation.
10 When my father and my mother Have forsaken me, then doth Jehovah gather me.
11 Shew me, O Jehovah, Thy way, And lead me in a path of uprightness, For the sake of my beholders.
12 Give me not to the will of my adversaries, For risen against me have false witnesses, And they breathe out violence to me.
13 I had not believed to look on the goodness of Jehovah In the land of the living!
14 Look unto Jehovah -- be strong, And He doth strengthen thy heart, Yea, look unto Jehovah!
Definitely one of my favorite Psalms. I think this covers this question.
D.
Quote from: darryl on August 27, 2016, 05:38:55 AM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 27, 2016, 03:03:52 AM
So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.
true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.
Yes I would tbh. I'd never willing ask to be born into this cesspit of a world where there's so much hate, violence, uncertainty, fear, pain and suffering.
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 08:06:09 PM
Quote from: CST on August 26, 2016, 07:19:42 PM
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 01:22:11 AM
If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
So far as I know none of those things have sentience and can answer back despite the poetic illustrations given in the Bible. In reality if God can do as He wishes to the beings and things He creates why can't we do as we wish to the beings and things we create. Why can't we create our children as appallingly as we wish. Are they not to some degree our workmanship as well as His? Of course that leaves us in a nonsense position because that argument stands for nothing on it's own.
Sorry this did not make sense to you, CST. I was using the argument to point out God created us, and therefore we belong to him. I was certainly not saying we are songs, books, or clay pots, or that such things are literally comparable to us. They were all supposed to be metaphors, symbols of the relationship between a creator and a created thing.
Here is one that may make more sense to you:
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2
"I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3
You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4
Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
5
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6)
I always 'abhor myself' but that's still never made sense to me either. God just makes an argument that because Job can't explain or perform all the marvelous acts God can and has done in creating the world that makes it OK for God to do whatever the Hell He likes up to and including allowing Satan to kill dozens of His children He's made in order to make a point about another one. Sounds very impartial.
But I'm not sure you really got my point. You just seem to be repeating an argument Paul made in the epistles, which is the best thing really because they're authorized, but I can remember reading that very same argument when I accepted the premise of ET, and I'm sure I've said this before, and it just seems to have all the wait of 'If God claiming to be supremely loving decides to torture you, your loved ones and countless others who you've never met in agonizing pain and sorrow for all time because He can, you are you to argue?" Then it because a massive problem and UR doesn't have the weight it ought to. I was simply trying to argue the way out of that problem.
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 08:53:18 PM
I think we should all avoid doubting the integrity or benevolence of someone who has sent His only son to die for mankind.
Yeah, the catch about that is that we've almost all been brought up on ET, a doctrine that invites us not just to doubt that integrity and benevolence but to reject it entirely and call it 'justice'.
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2016, 03:43:01 AM
Personally I understand the question, but I don't believe we should linger on it. Instead, I believe we're to humble ourselves before His hand, and as Job said, "even if you slay me I will trust You".
Isaiah 45
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
8 "You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it.
9 "Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'The potter has no hands'?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to a mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.
That sounds a wise statement and the passage from Isaiah you are quoting one of the better responses but the fact remains that especially because most Christians advertise ET as the final outcome for most of the species the question has great weight with atheists. They will take it further and may say that, if we say with Sheila none of us deserve the free gift of grace, well then why do we deserve to be labelled wicked by a God who made us as we are and never gave us the ability to do good for ourselves unless He gives us that unmerited grace. He not only created us when we did not ask it, He created us damned when we didn't ask it and only this 'unmerited' gift of grace can save us from being damned this puts us in an immediate double debt on a loan we never asked for and spent before we knew we had it. Or at it can seem that way under certain interpretations of the theology. Hence this question. This site is to discuss and further the promotion of UR and this question is a big hurdle to such promotion.
Quote from: darryl on August 27, 2016, 05:38:55 AM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 27, 2016, 03:03:52 AM
So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.
true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.
Sadly some people feel not especially if they've been made to believe in ET. Nevertheless this is where the answer lies.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 27, 2016, 06:26:00 PM
Quote from: darryl on August 27, 2016, 05:38:55 AM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 27, 2016, 03:03:52 AM
So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.
true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.
Yes I would tbh. I'd never willing ask to be born into this cesspit of a world where there's so much hate, violence, uncertainty, fear, pain and suffering.
Yeah, the point is that it is certainly not beyond God's capacity to change your mind.
Quotehat sounds a wise statement and the passage from Isaiah you are quoting one of the better responses but the fact remains that especially because most Christians advertise ET as the final outcome for most of the species the question has great weight with atheists. They will take it further and may say that, if we say with Sheila none of us deserve the free gift of grace, well then why do we deserve to be labelled wicked by a God who made us as we are and never gave us the ability to do good for ourselves unless He gives us that unmerited grace. He not only created us when we did not ask it, He created us damned when we didn't ask it and only this 'unmerited' gift of grace can save us from being damned this puts us in an immediate double debt on a loan we never asked for and spent before we knew we had it. Or at it can seem that way under certain interpretations of the theology. Hence this question. This site is to discuss and further the promotion of UR and this question is a big hurdle to such promotion.
I think James should answer you CST ,
But , you have some very thoughtful and honest questions and answers , They can make us all think !, I believe this is an excellent thread Chester has started .
I would answer you , This , God is glorified doubly in the earth and by the carnal mind ,, I think of Jesus saying , you being evil , that is mindful of earthly things , know how to give ''good'' gifts to your children , How much more will the heavenly Father give good gifts , these being of the Holy Spirit to those whom ask Him ... Spiritual gifts to the spiritual mind [Christ' anointed one'' ] that is .
I do believe the grace being that free gift of faith is where by faith is the spiritual increase of God adding the rewards that are WITH HIM ... Eph 2 Alive with Christ
...7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace,
demonstrated by His kindness to us
in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,
and this not from yourselves;
it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.... That anointing of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh
is available to all whom will come to the knowledge of truth ....
Those are the things that come to my own mind , when you presented your reply ...
God bless ......
Because there are two kingdoms down here...mankind.the children of God...and a 'wicked' kingdom of demonic spirits. people have
failed to discern the 'wicked/evil" one that God deliver's mankind from. Esau I have hated..means God is addressing the wicked spirits that
possess Esau.....He hates the works of the prince of this world..even the demonic spirits that possess and bring forth their corrupt image
through and in man.....He loves man. Jesus come to set us free from such...and as High Priest 'washes' the sacrifices'these words I speak
to you make you clean/but not all...have I not chosen you twelve but one of you is a devil[spirit on Judas]
with His 'word" we have to divide man from the evil contrast. and He shall appear again 'seperate' from sin[the evil contrast] and
we shall be just like Him. Just as ALL men have bore the image of the corrupt one[sin/wicked one] so.too,shall all men bear
the image of the incorrupt one. and He shall seperate the people as a shepherd seperates sheep from goats. man is sheep
goats/scapegoat/Azazael=the evil one He saves us from..our 'sin' He takes away. This sanctifies man..the LOF consumes
the evil one......even the 'certain sons of perdition/men" that by the Breath of His coming consumes. It's a consumation
an end of sin and death and immortality and the incorrupt image of Christ all men shall bear.
Re: "hurdle to UR"...Do we think we can convince an atheist (or anyone else) to believe? God decides to whom He gives faith to believe in this age. Many will fight, resist, reject, blaspheme, and make all the arguments in the world, even against clearly stated scripture. Because they/our hearts are hard and haven't as yet been softened or regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Many will find the cross of Christ foolishness and an offense. 1 Cor. 1:18 At the end of the age/in the next age, every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Share, declare the truth in love. Jesus saves those He will, and when. The Holy Spirit must draw. All the best arguments in the world (on one side or the other) cannot accomplish or substitue the Holy Spirit's work.
I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results.
IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).
from J. Preston Eby
Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.
Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.
Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.
The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!
There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
Quote from: CST on August 27, 2016, 07:03:15 PMI always 'abhor myself' but that's still never made sense to me either. God just makes an argument that because Job can't explain or perform all the marvelous acts God can and has done in creating the world that makes it OK for God to do whatever the Hell He likes up to and including allowing Satan to kill dozens of His children He's made in order to make a point about another one. Sounds very impartial.
But I'm not sure you really got my point. You just seem to be repeating an argument Paul made in the epistles, which is the best thing really because they're authorized, but I can remember reading that very same argument when I accepted the premise of ET, and I'm sure I've said this before, and it just seems to have all the wait of 'If God claiming to be supremely loving decides to torture you, your loved ones and countless others who you've never met in agonizing pain and sorrow for all time because He can, you are you to argue?" Then it because a massive problem and UR doesn't have the weight it ought to. I was simply trying to argue the way out of that problem.
Hey CST - I was actually answering the literal question of the OP, which was "what gives God the right to judge us?" To me, His right to treat His creation how He wants come from creation equaling ownership. If He did not have that right, we would have somewhere or someone to appeal to, as Him contravening lawful His boundaries, but we don't. So even if ET were true (which thankfully it is not), He clearly does have the "right" to judge His creation, as we belong to Him, are in His power, and have no recourse. A "right" is something that can be enforced or resisted according to legality, and we have no way of resisting Him - no cosmic court before which we can appear to indict Him, should we feel He has overreached Himself.
The questions of His nature, and whether His treatment of His creation is fair, are separate to His actual right to do as He pleases. ET would be unfair if true, whereas UR is the very manifestation of fairness. I am a believer in UR, and believe ET to be a satanic false doctrine of the first order, so of course I am grateful that we have a God who, although He can do as He pleases, is Love, and therefore is unfolding a marvelous story that shall culminate in the salvation and joy of all mankind, with even creation itself being released from it's bondage.
Maybe we spend too much time treating God as though He were a fallible man, with whims, instabilities and infirmities that we all suffer from in the flesh. To me, someone that can encode DNA, or stretch out the universe, create the lightening bolt and thunder cloud, or design a leaf, a blade of grass, or a human body, is too wonderful for me to fully comprehend while I am yet housed in the flesh, and for Him to have clothed Himself in that same flesh to die for mankind is a love so sublime, I cannot doubt His motives or character. For if I were to think He is unloving, where would I be saying love comes from? Do I know more about love than God? Do I generate it myself, and have done so well that I can lecture Him about how to be loving?
but many will not taste 'death/cross" until they see Him coming in power and great Glory.When the Lord had revealed unto Peter
by what death he would glorify God...then Peter asked...what about his brother[thinking the revelation concerned the disciple
whom Jesus loved[bosom position] but the parable of Lazarus shows the rich man and Lazarus..who recieved the great poverty of spirit
in this world..where dogs licked his wounds...and he hungered for a crumb from the rich man's table. The rich man is the evil 1 talent
doctrine that many churches preach. Jesus said 'what is it to you[to those called to service]? you must follow me. Lazarus wasn't called
as a disciple in this life. and given power to cast outserpents and all power over the enemy.he is of the little dogs/demon possesed
shut out of the Kingdom while in this life. Christ raised Lazarus from the tomb to show this very truth
as Creator..He judges His handy work..who better. He said...'the vessel was marred in my hand" He has authority to remake it..and that
is what He is doing.....very good for us[man] He always does RIGHT by His creation...and though He sowed it weak in corruption
He raises it up in incorruption and power! Delivering us from him that was stronger than us while dwelling in weak flesh.
God through Jesus also judged that the spirit of man was willing..but the flesh weak.
Quote from: sheila on August 27, 2016, 11:46:56 PM
as Creator..He judges His handy work..who better. He said...'the vessel was marred in my hand" He has authority to remake it..and that
is what He is doing.....very good for us[man] He always does RIGHT by His creation...and though He sowed it weak in corruption
He raises it up in incorruption and power! Delivering us from him that was stronger than us while dwelling in weak flesh.
God through Jesus also judged that the spirit of man was willing..but the flesh weak.
amen :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2016, 09:16:53 PM
IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).
from J. Preston Eby
Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.
Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.
Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.
The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!
There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you are saying were forced into believing in Gods love through pain and suffering?
Quote from: rosered on August 27, 2016, 08:01:31 PM
Quotehat sounds a wise statement and the passage from Isaiah you are quoting one of the better responses but the fact remains that especially because most Christians advertise ET as the final outcome for most of the species the question has great weight with atheists. They will take it further and may say that, if we say with Sheila none of us deserve the free gift of grace, well then why do we deserve to be labelled wicked by a God who made us as we are and never gave us the ability to do good for ourselves unless He gives us that unmerited grace. He not only created us when we did not ask it, He created us damned when we didn't ask it and only this 'unmerited' gift of grace can save us from being damned this puts us in an immediate double debt on a loan we never asked for and spent before we knew we had it. Or at it can seem that way under certain interpretations of the theology. Hence this question. This site is to discuss and further the promotion of UR and this question is a big hurdle to such promotion.
I think James should answer you CST ,
But , you have some very thoughtful and honest questions and answers , They can make us all think !, I believe this is an excellent thread Chester has started .
I would answer you , This , God is glorified doubly in the earth and by the carnal mind ,, I think of Jesus saying , you being evil , that is mindful of earthly things , know how to give "good" gifts to your children , How much more will the heavenly Father give good gifts , these being of the Holy Spirit to those whom ask Him ... Spiritual gifts to the spiritual mind [Christ' anointed one" ] that is .
I do believe the grace being that free gift of faith is where by faith is the spiritual increase of God adding the rewards that are WITH HIM ... Eph 2 Alive with Christ
...7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace,
demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,
and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.... That anointing of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh is available to all whom will come to the knowledge of truth ....
Those are the things that come to my own mind , when you presented your reply ...
God bless ......
Don't worry to much. I've essentially satisfied myself with how to answer these questions I raise but I mention them as an expression that I understand what those like Chester and those like him might be thinking and I don't think we should just dismiss them.
Quote from: sheila on August 27, 2016, 08:25:13 PM
Because there are two kingdoms down here...mankind.the children of God...and a 'wicked' kingdom of demonic spirits. people have
failed to discern the 'wicked/evil" one that God deliver's mankind from. Esau I have hated..means God is addressing the wicked spirits that
possess Esau.....He hates the works of the prince of this world..even the demonic spirits that possess and bring forth their corrupt image
through and in man.....He loves man. Jesus come to set us free from such...and as High Priest 'washes' the sacrifices'these words I speak
to you make you clean/but not all...have I not chosen you twelve but one of you is a devil[spirit on Judas]
with His 'word" we have to divide man from the evil contrast. and He shall appear again 'seperate' from sin[the evil contrast] and
we shall be just like Him. Just as ALL men have bore the image of the corrupt one[sin/wicked one] so.too,shall all men bear
the image of the incorrupt one. and He shall seperate the people as a shepherd seperates sheep from goats. man is sheep
goats/scapegoat/Azazael=the evil one He saves us from..our 'sin' He takes away. This sanctifies man..the LOF consumes
the evil one......even the 'certain sons of perdition/men" that by the Breath of His coming consumes. It's a consumation
an end of sin and death and immortality and the incorrupt image of Christ all men shall bear.
I don't think the Bible ever says Esau was demon possessed anywhere, I can't help thinking that if Esau was demon possessed the reunion with Jacob wouldn't have been so successful.
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2016, 08:48:30 PM
Re: "hurdle to UR"...Do we think we can convince an atheist (or anyone else) to believe? God decides to whom He gives faith to believe in this age. Many will fight, resist, reject, blaspheme, and make all the arguments in the world, even against clearly stated scripture. Because they/our hearts are hard and haven't as yet been softened or regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Many will find the cross of Christ foolishness and an offense. 1 Cor. 1:18 At the end of the age/in the next age, every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Share, declare the truth in love. Jesus saves those He will, and when. The Holy Spirit must draw. All the best arguments in the world (on one side or the other) cannot accomplish or substitue the Holy Spirit's work.
I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results.
Fine, then we have no purpose. If UR is the correct faith then that is what people should receive when God gives the grace, people who believe in ET or ED have never received God's grace and are perishing. So while everything you say is true who are we trying to convince? There is no point promoting UR if all the people who hear our message reject it because they haven't received God's grace. There is no point promoting Christianity if God hasn't given grace to the people you're preaching to. No, God can give grace to whom He chooses but they won't be able to confess that grace and what it means until somebody goes to them and tells them the truth not a bit of the truth, the truth.
Going by you're next post I see it the opposite way round to you although I doubt it matters which comes the Grace or the Gospel, we need both before we can see. But the Eby quote does invite the question, if we are 'totally depraved' having no choice, what is Adam who the text suggests did have a choice and chose wrongly. Does that not make Adam worse than us all?
Quote from: Shev on August 27, 2016, 11:21:16 PM
Quote from: CST on August 27, 2016, 07:03:15 PMI always 'abhor myself' but that's still never made sense to me either. God just makes an argument that because Job can't explain or perform all the marvelous acts God can and has done in creating the world that makes it OK for God to do whatever the Hell He likes up to and including allowing Satan to kill dozens of His children He's made in order to make a point about another one. Sounds very impartial.
But I'm not sure you really got my point. You just seem to be repeating an argument Paul made in the epistles, which is the best thing really because they're authorized, but I can remember reading that very same argument when I accepted the premise of ET, and I'm sure I've said this before, and it just seems to have all the wait of 'If God claiming to be supremely loving decides to torture you, your loved ones and countless others who you've never met in agonizing pain and sorrow for all time because He can, you are you to argue?" Then it because a massive problem and UR doesn't have the weight it ought to. I was simply trying to argue the way out of that problem.
Hey CST - I was actually answering the literal question of the OP, which was "what gives God the right to judge us?" To me, His right to treat His creation how He wants come from creation equaling ownership. If He did not have that right, we would have somewhere or someone to appeal to, as Him contravening lawful His boundaries, but we don't. So even if ET were true (which thankfully it is not), He clearly does have the "right" to judge His creation, as we belong to Him, are in His power, and have no recourse. A "right" is something that can be enforced or resisted according to legality, and we have no way of resisting Him - no cosmic court before which we can appear to indict Him, should we feel He has overreached Himself.
The questions of His nature, and whether His treatment of His creation is fair, are separate to His actual right to do as He pleases. ET would be unfair if true, whereas UR is the very manifestation of fairness. I am a believer in UR, and believe ET to be a satanic false doctrine of the first order, so of course I am grateful that we have a God who, although He can do as He pleases, is Love, and therefore is unfolding a marvelous story that shall culminate in the salvation and joy of all mankind, with even creation itself being released from it's bondage.
Maybe we spend too much time treating God as though He were a fallible man, with whims, instabilities and infirmities that we all suffer from in the flesh. To me, someone that can encode DNA, or stretch out the universe, create the lightening bolt and thunder cloud, or design a leaf, a blade of grass, or a human body, is too wonderful for me to fully comprehend while I am yet housed in the flesh, and for Him to have clothed Himself in that same flesh to die for mankind is a love so sublime, I cannot doubt His motives or character. For if I were to think He is unloving, where would I be saying love comes from? Do I know more about love than God? Do I generate it myself, and have done so well that I can lecture Him about how to be loving?
:smile: That final question really is the answer. Remember, though, again my point is always trying to acknowledge the original concerns because I have shared many of the in the past. I have also answered them to my own satisfaction but it can be hard to convince myself of them at all times.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 30, 2016, 06:56:14 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2016, 09:16:53 PM
IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).
from J. Preston Eby
Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.
Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.
Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.
The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!
There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you are saying were forced into believing in Gods love through pain and suffering?
No, it does quite work like that. It's actually rather more complicated. OK, I had this problem for a fair amount of time in address the question of God's right to judge us perhaps even condemn us. Do you know how I got around it? I abandoned the concept of free will. The passage that set me off I referenced earlier seem ed very against it so I threw it out of the equation. So I abandoned it and took up a position of independent and developing determinism. This means that the universe is a product of it's chemical process as are all of us in it. It can't change those process so we can't decide otherwise but we also can't be otherwise. That means that God has made us uniquely and utterly us, no one else us. God made the universe as it is but He still has control, He could have pushed it in a different direction whenever He wanted if He wished but He didn't and produced different beings and things but He didn't He push it in the direction that made us, He allowed us to be He chose us to be over all of those other beings.
You protest that there is pain in the universe, that objection is of you and part of your character. But if there was no pain or suffering you would have that experience and feeling and so that part of your character would be gone and so you wouldn't be you God would have made some else. But He didn't make someone else, He made you and is continuing, in some senses to do so. I have two phrases I use to express this fact the first is pretty basic the second even more so and both I believe to be true consciously but I concede that because we all experience that suffering you mentioned they can be very hard to feel sometimes. Those phrases:
Whenever you challenge God on how He made the world you always stake yourself.
The point here being that as mentioned above if God had made the world differently you'd have had a different experience of it and could not actually in fact be you.
The second one is the difficult one simply to say and believe in the mind, much harder to believe in the heart because of how much things hurt:
Do not ever say that God doesn't love us when we are the children He made.
(That's me very loosely paraphrasing 'God Put A Smile Upon Your Face' in case anyone is wondering. I can't promise I'm understanding the original correctly)
I don't agree with Eby on that..when God made man...after His image and likeness...He said man was good[only God is good]
man's REAL nature..to love do right be peaceable kind is patterned after God......man is happy loving and being loved......man
is miserable with hate,strife and all the other evil nature. So what happened? the seducer 'evil one" entered and sowed tare seed in
the field[man's dusty flesh] and due to the flesh's weakness..and the power of the enemy[who is stronger than flesh] the corrupt
nature of the adversary come forth with it's works in man's flesh...leading into much misery for man.
sin in the flesh is condemned because of it's evil fruit...that leads to death/corruption.
as all men have bore the image of corruption,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.....the restoration of man is
really the healing and bringing back man to His true nature/which is like God's...it is man's birthright which has been stolen by the evil
one..as he pits God's own sons against one another and God.
look at the renewl...no more tears pain sickness death..new earth/heavens ABSENT of the evil ones nature. God's sons/daughter's
sown in corruption due to sin entering....restored. what breaks us is the evil one/what heals and binds our wounds and restores
is God. He wants us to obey Him because He doesn't want something horrible to happen to us[protective]
Father's heart....Jerusalem..how I have wanted to take you under my wings/like a hen protecting her chicks..but you would not have
it....so then we get broken[vessel] and He puts us togather again on the other side of the Jordan. sometimes we learn the hard
way to listen to Him.
It is so important that man know God's kind intentions toward His children.........always receiving His prodigals home with open arms.
if on this side of the Jordan we be reconciled...He may even have you suffer for doing good...for the sake of the other children He loves
like Jesus. All men must know..that He is very tender and loving in His mercies to His children at all times.He does NOT repay evil
with evil...but there is a 'wicked one" that relishes nothing better than to persecute God's children. And He promises unto us
to destroy him. Time we all know who the 'real' enemy is...and it's not your fellow man or God.
now satan the accusor says man is rebellious and depraved...and thinks no one see's what he does/but God does....Jesus
said 'the Prince of this world is judged that his works are wicked" and God's captive sons that have been taken captive by the devil
will exhibit outwardly these wicked works in their flesh. but tell me....what spirit is so rebellious that it was thrown out of heaven?
and unto this earth...and 'woe to us because of it" where he awaits judgement. For he that touches you touches the apple of God's eye
even man...His sons and offspring. Man has not KNOWN what spirit he is of..he's been mis-informed that he's 'devil's seed" but
Jesus showed us through the parable the parabolic meaning....God planted 'GOOD SEED" an enemy hath planted the tares.
and He showed the destiny of both. Therefore,despise the face of no man,and from now on call no MAN UNCLEAN.
This is part of the revealing of the SONS OF GOD..that the whole creation groans for...and also the revealing of the mystery
of iniquity/lawless one. when they are removed..just like the man with legions..man will be in His right mind...and freed through Christ.
for if I cast out demons by the 'Finger of God/God's judgement" then the Kingdom of Heaven has come upon you.
a law unto themselves...natural men without relationship with God or Christ..that by nature love/kind/peaceable bears wittness
that man's nature is in God's image.
Rightly deviding.....if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children" knowing what was 'IN' man Jesus oft speaks
to the evil one dwelling in man..and unto man. The scripture preceding this statement..was about what Father gives a stone when a child
asks for bread? satan had done this very thing to Jesus in the wilderness..come with turn this stone into bread..if you are His son....
satn as the prince of this world..also gives gifts of men to his offspring/see two wittness killed and the joy of giving gifts to one another..
those gifts are men!!!!overcome saints.......
God hates the 'wicked one" not man...so any people/country nation etc He says He hates is because of their presence. and when God
cast out the wicked one..brotherly love and re-union occurrs. you can liken this between the church/saints and so called 'sinners"
out there right now. when you mess with people's BIRTHRIGHT..this kind of stuff happens.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 30, 2016, 06:56:14 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 27, 2016, 09:16:53 PM
IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).
from J. Preston Eby
Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.
Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.
Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.
The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!
There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you are saying were forced into believing in Gods love through pain and suffering?
God does judge, but even His judgments lead to mercy. A lot of it could be pain and suffering from the consequences of the shape or our own heart and our choices and behavior. The misery of separation from close relationship to Him and the death in many ways that brings, that He uses to bring us to the point of awareness of our need for the Savior. Our will is at play. We can either yeild willingly (with "gentle persuasion"), or with whatever level is required. God searches and knows each heart's needs.
quote cst If UR is the correct faith then that is what people should receive when God gives the grace, people who believe in ET or ED have never received God's grace and are perishing. So while everything you say is true who are we trying to convince? There is no point promoting UR if all the people who hear our message reject it because they haven't received God's grace. There is no point promoting Christianity if God hasn't given grace to the people you're preaching to. No, God can give grace to whom He chooses but they won't be able to confess that grace and what it means until somebody goes to them and tells them the truth not a bit of the truth, the truth.
I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again. Paul said that is the Gospel. UR is not The Gospel. It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ. That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime. But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.
quote jabcat I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results.
quote cst Fine, then we have no purpose.
IMO, that is our purpose, or part of it. Share, speak the truth in love, proclaim Jesus as Savior of the world, and as Paul said, "be you reconciled to God". He also said "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?". I believe God uses us to proclaim Him (share the Good News), be salt and light (speak [and live] the truth in love), and will use us (the forerunners, elect) to shepherd in many in the next age.
Again though, even though we share, speak, live truth, not all receive in this age. Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust and move on at some point. Paul also talks about fruitless discussions and inciting strife and dissension. So I believe at some point it's OK, when Spirit led and released to do so, to leave something in God's hands and let Him handle it from there. We "preach" Jesus, but may not know until the next age even how God has "added to the fellowship those who were being saved". Walking by the Spirit, not led by the flesh. It's a challenge and sometimes we may get it right. :2c:
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 01:22:11 AM
If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?
For we enjoy our new home golf simulator (https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2025/04/24/3067824/0/en/Best-Home-Golf-Simulator-of-2025-Practice-Like-A-Pro-Without-Leaving-Home-WhatBest-Announces-Top-Golf-Simulator-Winners.html) and are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
You can do all those things but do you have the right to judge them? I think so. :Pray:
Quote from: Tonie on August 31, 2016, 10:12:37 AM
Quote from: Shev on August 26, 2016, 01:22:11 AM
If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
You can do all those things but do you have the right to judge them? I think so. :Pray:
Amen !!! Being the Word judges us all and it is the incorruptible seed planted in our hearts , If you have no place for His Word in you , as Jesus pointed out to those still under the law , I believe death still had a hold of them and was all they knew and the dead know nothing about what pleases God ..
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit...23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me. 25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you....
John 3:11
Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.
John 7:16
"My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied.
"It comes from Him who sent Me.John 12:49
I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.
John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me
? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, carrying out His work.John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me,
he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make
Our home with him. As the Word of truth by the Spirit of truth dwell in us , it is LIFE in us ...
here is some more beautiful LIVING truths Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
...16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you....
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about Me.
John 16:13
However, when the Spirit of truth comes
, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. Jesus Christ testimony /witness is the Spirit of prophecy ! We Hold His Word in our bosom / heart , that none can take away from us ..
Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh,
but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things,
so remain in Him as you have been taught.1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.
1 John 4:6
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.
I do see the WORD OF GOD AS A LIVING WORD and this quickening gives that same life to others whom hear what the Spirit is saying as it works though that LOVE OF GOD in us that has been given a taste of Gods goodness
Jesus Christ tasted death for every man , so every man can taste God and know them , the tree of Life ..
the tree of knowledge of good and evil that brings death in it kills , we are to not taste it touch it any longer , but go on into perfection /completeness in Christ .....
Col 2 Alive in Christ
...20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations:
21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"? — 22 These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings....
Only GOD HIMSELF is HOLY AND NEVER ENDING ...BEING OUR LIFE IN CHRIST
Quote from: sheila on August 30, 2016, 08:44:29 PM
I don't agree with Eby on that..when God made man...after His image and likeness...He said man was good[only God is good]
man's REAL nature..to love do right be peaceable kind is patterned after God......man is happy loving and being loved......man
is miserable with hate,strife and all the other evil nature. So what happened? the seducer 'evil one" entered and sowed tare seed in
the field[man's dusty flesh] and due to the flesh's weakness..and the power of the enemy[who is stronger than flesh] the corrupt
nature of the adversary come forth with it's works in man's flesh...leading into much misery for man.
sin in the flesh is condemned because of it's evil fruit...that leads to death/corruption.
as all men have bore the image of corruption,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.....the restoration of man is
really the healing and bringing back man to His true nature/which is like God's...it is man's birthright which has been stolen by the evil
one..as he pits God's own sons against one another and God.
look at the renewl...no more tears pain sickness death..new earth/heavens ABSENT of the evil ones nature. God's sons/daughter's
sown in corruption due to sin entering....restored. what breaks us is the evil one/what heals and binds our wounds and restores
is God. He wants us to obey Him because He doesn't want something horrible to happen to us[protective]
Father's heart....Jerusalem..how I have wanted to take you under my wings/like a hen protecting her chicks..but you would not have
it....so then we get broken[vessel] and He puts us togather again on the other side of the Jordan. sometimes we learn the hard
way to listen to Him.
It is so important that man know God's kind intentions toward His children.........always receiving His prodigals home with open arms.
if on this side of the Jordan we be reconciled...He may even have you suffer for doing good...for the sake of the other children He loves
like Jesus. All men must know..that He is very tender and loving in His mercies to His children at all times.He does NOT repay evil
with evil...but there is a 'wicked one" that relishes nothing better than to persecute God's children. And He promises unto us
to destroy him. Time we all know who the 'real' enemy is...and it's not your fellow man or God.
now satan the accusor says man is rebellious and depraved...and thinks no one see's what he does/but God does....Jesus
said 'the Prince of this world is judged that his works are wicked" and God's captive sons that have been taken captive by the devil
will exhibit outwardly these wicked works in their flesh. but tell me....what spirit is so rebellious that it was thrown out of heaven?
and unto this earth...and 'woe to us because of it" where he awaits judgement. For he that touches you touches the apple of God's eye
even man...His sons and offspring. Man has not KNOWN what spirit he is of..he's been mis-informed that he's 'devil's seed" but
Jesus showed us through the parable the parabolic meaning....God planted 'GOOD SEED" an enemy hath planted the tares.
and He showed the destiny of both. Therefore,despise the face of no man,and from now on call no MAN UNCLEAN.
This is part of the revealing of the SONS OF GOD..that the whole creation groans for...and also the revealing of the mystery
of iniquity/lawless one. when they are removed..just like the man with legions..man will be in His right mind...and freed through Christ.
for if I cast out demons by the 'Finger of God/God's judgement" then the Kingdom of Heaven has come upon you.
a law unto themselves...natural men without relationship with God or Christ..that by nature love/kind/peaceable bears wittness
that man's nature is in God's image.
Obviously 'good' is a broad term with a number of meanings and has a unique and overarching meaning when it applies to God. In the case of Genesis, God was observing that the world was forming in the way He had intended. This was supposedly before the fall though.
But I agree with your main point about your observation on what Eby wrote. The thing I have with the relationship between UR and ET/ED positions are that UR tends to be inclined to agree with most of the others conclusions and reading of scripture and simply reject what they say about the duration of punishment. That's about the only thing that their logic is mistaken though. Understandable, they are the established church and their doctrines are what is commonly taught and accepted. They are incredibly hard to get rid off.
The total depravity of humanity is one of those. It seems to be supported and is taken to mean that human beings are utterly evil but I tend to take it to mean they are weak (although they could be utterly evil). Why? Because if they are utterly evil, they have no reason to care about what is good, no reason too oppose evil because everything is evil so no reason to be hurt or moved when evil happened because they have none of counter balancing goodness to see the evil for what it is. It means that God basically has to have been pouring grace on the whole species from the beginning in order for anything good to happen or be seen, in order for any of God's work to be done. Which sounds like it could well be true. Without grace, there is no Moses or Noah or Job. But without grace we also rule out a lot of the apparent good deeds of those of other religions or none. There is a grace that seems to be outside sphere of death and resurrection of Jesus. I struggle with that although I understand some do not. There's saving grace and the other grace. Very strange. I'm also not sure what the point is of saving something is essentially no good. That's what the doctrine of total depravity suggests. That the human species God made is a very poor job with no good features of its own. It's God better than that? I suppose it would then be important to God for Him to require grace to complete His work and His work all remains unfinished without it.
I fear this might be rather messy and less clear than I intended. And it could also be very wrong.
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 12:32:56 AM
quote cst If UR is the correct faith then that is what people should receive when God gives the grace, people who believe in ET or ED have never received God's grace and are perishing. So while everything you say is true who are we trying to convince? There is no point promoting UR if all the people who hear our message reject it because they haven't received God's grace. There is no point promoting Christianity if God hasn't given grace to the people you're preaching to. No, God can give grace to whom He chooses but they won't be able to confess that grace and what it means until somebody goes to them and tells them the truth not a bit of the truth, the truth.
I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again. Paul said that is the Gospel. UR is not The Gospel. It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ. That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime. But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.
quote jabcat I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results.
quote cst Fine, then we have no purpose.
IMO, that is our purpose, or part of it. Share, speak the truth in love, proclaim Jesus as Savior of the world, and as Paul said, "be you reconciled to God". He also said "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?". I believe God uses us to proclaim Him (share the Good News), be salt and light (speak [and live] the truth in love), and will use us (the forerunners, elect) to shepherd in many in the next age.
Again though, even though we share, speak, live truth, not all receive in this age. Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust and move on at some point. Paul also talks about fruitless discussions and inciting strife and dissension. So I believe at some point it's OK, when Spirit led and released to do so, to leave something in God's hands and let Him handle it from there. We "preach" Jesus, but may not know until the next age even how God has "added to the fellowship those who were being saved". Walking by the Spirit, not led by the flesh. It's a challenge and sometimes we may get it right. :2c:
Jesus clearly declare 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.' He also declared that outside Him there is no Truth (or some other writer did commenting on this and similar passages). If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Jesus is the Truth and has nothing false in them. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. And, of course, Romans has the verse: ' if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.' Sounds easy, doesn't it? But ET/ED also believe in their heart (it seems) those who don't make this cut, go to Hell or and destroyed forever. When they confess that 'Jesus is Lord' they believe His Lordship not only permits but demands that He do this. When the words are in black and white on the page it's easy to forget the strength and weight behind them. Jesus is Lord of all, He intends for that all to acknowledge that and give Him the worship He deserves. And God did indeed raise Him from the dead as a beginning and an example that He will raise all from their prison of death is due order. This is the Gospel. God didn't raise Jesus just to show off that He could. Believing in your heart God did so doesn't mean just accepting that fact that it happened. You have to understand what it means to confess 'Jesus is Lord' what is means to 'believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead'. This is the Gospel and to me this is UR, the other two perspectives don't cut it.
As I said, as I tried to make clear, the Gospel and the Grace are both required, if you are given the Gospel but not the Grace you will disbelieve and reject it. If you are given grace but have not yet heard the Gospel you will struggle with the above process, you will struggle to know what it means to confess and believe as instructed above.
Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "
by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3). We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the
children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked] to me...and at the very least, not "good"
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.
I disagree and I explained why above. IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth. But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5). We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here. Thanks.
these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out 'aionios' is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.
Quote from: darryl on September 01, 2016, 09:15:33 AM
these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out 'aionios' is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.
I often think of it as a sort of peer pressure thing.. And people want to "belong".. Be 'in' with the group, not 'out'.. to conform(?)
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the
Gospel.
I believe we all err in many ways (tho still 'saved' and safely in His hands).. but I also think ( :dontknow: ) 144,000 (of Israel) are/will be a different case.. spiritual "virgins" not soiled with (the doctrine of?) women.. Paganism is strong on matriarchy and 'goddesses'.. Whereas the Hebrew is strong on patriarchy and, of course, the one true God, Lord of hosts/armies.. Mighty commander.. (i.e. masculine)
I only mention it because I was studying upon it this morning..
(reading it in the interlinear - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2014 )
:gsmile:
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 10:19:28 PM
Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3). We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked] to me...and at the very least, not "good"
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.
I disagree and I explained why above. IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth. But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5). We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here. Thanks.
Now you seem to be talking like an ETer. God is the Father of all things in fact. He created everything the Devil created nothing, his goal and purpose is the attempt to destroy what God has created. We are all children of God in this sense. Jesus said the Pharisees and others of His enemies were of their father the Devil to shock them. He didn't mean it literally in any sense but it had powerful symbolism, truth and and the same time suggested something the Pharisees would be appalled by, namely that they works and deeds served the ends of the Devil much more than they served God. A major slight given that the Pharisees pinned their whole image on the pretense that everything they did was what God would have them do. As is continually pointed out they were very like our modern religious institutions painting themselves and have a special relationship with God and condemning anyone who did not meet the specific standards they proscribed even while they were unable to meet them themselves.
And yes, it's impossible for any of us to have entirely the correct doctrine, but I think that presenting bad doctrine that pushes people away from God not towards Him does not go in the favor of those doing it. Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.
Quote from: darryl on September 01, 2016, 09:15:33 AM
these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out 'aionios' is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.
We can't be too hard on anyone, well we can but we're not supposed to be.
Quote from: marie glen on September 01, 2016, 04:15:11 PM
Quote from: darryl on September 01, 2016, 09:15:33 AM
these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out 'aionios' is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.
I often think of it as a sort of peer pressure thing.. And people want to "belong".. Be 'in' with the group, not 'out'.. to conform(?)
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the
Gospel.
I believe we all err in many ways (tho still 'saved' and safely in His hands).. but I also think ( :dontknow: ) 144,000 (of Israel) are/will be a different case.. spiritual "virgins" not soiled with (the doctrine of?) women.. Paganism is strong on matriarchy and 'goddesses'.. Whereas the Hebrew is strong on patriarchy and, of course, the one true God, Lord of hosts/armies.. Mighty commander.. (i.e. masculine)
I only mention it because I was studying upon it this morning..
(reading it in the interlinear - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2014 )
:gsmile:
Well obviously, it's why I was trying to do that work on what the Bible means by Truth because I hold that as being very important. I don't think the 144 000 are actually all out of Israel it's a piece of symbolism the Revelation uses along with all it's other strange symbols that are hard to understand. It has been believed that the 144 000 were children as they would likely be virgins owing to their age. Which has on and off led me to wonder, when accepting the Israel statement, if it thus refers to the infants murdered on the orders of Herod when he was trying to kill Jesus.
Edit: I notice that site you link to has its own link in it to a site about the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate. While I am sure no conclusions can have been reached, has Tentmaker ever considered its position on this rather frightening looking doctrine?
Quote from: CST on September 01, 2016, 05:23:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 10:19:28 PM
Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3). We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked] to me...and at the very least, not "good"
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.
I disagree and I explained why above. IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth. But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5). We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here. Thanks.
Now you seem to be talking like an ETer.
I don't think applying such labels in this case serves any useful purpose. Your statement that Jesus said those things for shock is of course your opinion, with which I disagree. I think He was calling it correctly. Also Paul says similar when not talking directly to unbelievers, so not apparently trying to "shock" anybody.
Quote from: CST on September 01, 2016, 05:23:16 PM
Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.
I didn't say salvation is a doctrine. That's why I don't typcially engage in ongoing convoluted, circular "arguments". Because that's what they become. If we don't agree, as long as we're both trying to understand our view from within the scriptures, that's fine, let's move on and we'll understand it better later.
I've not read all the thread, just responding to OP.
I've come to see judgement more as a 'setting straight' then as a condemning thing. On a worldwide as well as on a personal level.
I've also come to see forgiveness of sin has mainly to do with setting free of sin. Traditionally, sin is seen as something God holds against us (even though He provides a way to forgive). I believe Jesus showed us that He came to save sinners, save them from their sin. Speaking of sin as a sickness, and of Himself as a Doctor. And that same Jesus is the one who is appointed to be the Judge of the World.
I quote/translate from a Dutch universalist writer:
'What would it mean if their would be no wrath of God? It would mean that God would leave the earth to what people make of it. The evil would go on and death would have the last say, and God would consent to it. The wrath of God means that He doesn't consent to this, that He doesn't consent leaving the earth and all that lives on it to evil. He maintains his purpose with His creation. Everything is about that purpose. The deliverance of Creation of everything that harms it. The wrath of God is completely at het service of this deliverance, that is: His saving justice.'
Amen,Abigail
Quote from: CST on September 01, 2016, 05:23:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 10:19:28 PM
Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3). We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked] to me...and at the very least, not "good"
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.
I disagree and I explained why above. IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth. But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5). We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here. Thanks.
Now you seem to be talking like an ETer. God is the Father of all things in fact. He created everything the Devil created nothing, his goal and purpose is the attempt to destroy what God has created. We are all children of God in this sense. Jesus said the Pharisees and others of His enemies were of their father the Devil to shock them. He didn't mean it literally in any sense but it had powerful symbolism, truth and and the same time suggested something the Pharisees would be appalled by, namely that they works and deeds served the ends of the Devil much more than they served God. A major slight given that the Pharisees pinned their whole image on the pretense that everything they did was what God would have them do. As is continually pointed out they were very like our modern religious institutions painting themselves and have a special relationship with God and condemning anyone who did not meet the specific standards they proscribed even while they were unable to meet them themselves.
And yes, it's impossible for any of us to have entirely the correct doctrine, but I think that presenting bad doctrine that pushes people away from God not towards Him does not go in the favor of those doing it. Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.
Quote from: darryl on September 01, 2016, 09:15:33 AM
these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out 'aionios' is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.
We can't be too hard on anyone, well we can but we're not supposed to be.
Quote from: marie glen on September 01, 2016, 04:15:11 PM
Quote from: darryl on September 01, 2016, 09:15:33 AM
these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out 'aionios' is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.
I often think of it as a sort of peer pressure thing.. And people want to "belong".. Be 'in' with the group, not 'out'.. to conform(?)
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the
Gospel.
I believe we all err in many ways (tho still 'saved' and safely in His hands).. but I also think ( :dontknow: ) 144,000 (of Israel) are/will be a different case.. spiritual "virgins" not soiled with (the doctrine of?) women.. Paganism is strong on matriarchy and 'goddesses'.. Whereas the Hebrew is strong on patriarchy and, of course, the one true God, Lord of hosts/armies.. Mighty commander.. (i.e. masculine)
I only mention it because I was studying upon it this morning..
(reading it in the interlinear - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2014 )
:gsmile:
Well obviously, it's why I was trying to do that work on what the Bible means by Truth because I hold that as being very important. I don't think the 144 000 are actually all out of Israel it's a piece of symbolism the Revelation uses along with all it's other strange symbols that are hard to understand. It has been believed that the 144 000 were children as they would likely be virgins owing to their age. Which has on and off led me to wonder, when accepting the Israel statement, if it thus refers to the infants murdered on the orders of Herod when he was trying to kill Jesus.
Edit: I notice that site you link to has its own link in it to a site about the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate. While I am sure no conclusions can have been reached, has Tentmaker ever considered its position on this rather frightening looking doctrine?
I know we arent to be too hard on anyone...but, it's a bit irritating when 'hellists' continue to push the hellist belief in everlasting torment even after being confronted with all the UR evidence in Scripture...when I was confronted with this evidence i changed track pretty much immediately...I changed from being a hellist, to doubting it, within the space of a couple of weeks..it bothers me when the hellist stubbornly hold onto their evil idea of God even after seeing the evidence for UR..I cannot help being bothered, I'm only human..in a sense they are misrepresenting Jesus, whom i love dearly cause they insist Jesus will torment precious human beings forever...I can only pray for them, if they will not agree after hearing the UR evidence...no point getting upset with them.
their 'virgins/pure because they are born again from above..they are Jesus 'wave-breast' portion=golden girdle that encompasses
His chest/heart/paps...a new creation...a mere woman shall encompass a man[son of man] these are the actual 'breasts of
Heaven" that nurture the little children in flesh and blood yet. the High Priest always recieves the 'Breast portion" dove/holy spirits
that go forth from His upper perfect body..to minister[Holy spirit in bodily form of dove]....dove is all breast mostly.
true Israel is all mankind...these are redeemed spirits that serve Him[children of the resurrection like the angels.}
Quote from: Abigail on September 01, 2016, 11:41:02 PM
I've not read all the thread, just responding to OP.
Not a bad plan. :winkgrin:
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
darryl,
Thank you for the post. You have described the God I worship.
mine,too!
Quote from: Patinak on September 02, 2016, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
darryl,
Thank you for the post. You have described the God I worship.
Quote from: sheila on September 02, 2016, 04:19:55 PM
mine,too!
Mine as well ...........
I am convinced that the good and evil does serve God and give Him ALL the glory , proving both in His two edged SWORD OF TRUTH ..
MERCY IS THE VERY CORE OF SPIRITUAL HEALING ..
and the mercy seat is on of those things they did not speak of in Hebrews 9
The Earthly Tabernacle
...4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.
Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
5
Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6When everything had been prepared in this way,
the priests entered regularly into the outer room to perform their sacred duties....
and many more things are yet to be revealed when we can bear them at Gods perfect desire to have it be made known fully ...
I DO BELIEVE ALL WILL KNOW THAT LOVE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that any one could ever possess as being LIFE itself . .
This is eternal LIFE THE PRAYER OF JESUS CHRIST TO humanity John 17
...2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on September 02, 2016, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Patinak on September 02, 2016, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
darryl,
Thank you for the post. You have described the God I worship.
Quote from: sheila on September 02, 2016, 04:19:55 PM
mine,too!
Mine as well ...........
I am convinced that the good and evil does serve God and give Him ALL the glory , proving both in His two edged SWORD OF TRUTH ..
MERCY IS THE VERY CORE OF SPIRITUAL HEALING ..
and the mercy seat is on of those things they did not speak of in Hebrews 9
The Earthly Tabernacle
...4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.
Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.
But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6When everything had been prepared in this way,
the priests entered regularly into the outer room to perform their sacred duties....
and many more things are yet to be revealed when we can bear them at Gods perfect desire to have it be made known fully ...
I DO BELIEVE ALL WILL KNOW THAT LOVE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that any one could ever possess as being LIFE itself . .
This is eternal LIFE THE PRAYER OF JESUS CHRIST TO humanity John 17
...2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.... :HeartThrob:
:dsunny: :banana:
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
This puts me mind of the law of redemption and jubilee. In the first forty-nine years, anyone can be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer (which is the relationship of the elect and Christ), but in the fiftieth year, EVERYONE was set free, and all lands returned to the original owner.
I don't see forgiveness and judgment as the same thing, as far as the OP. Forgiveness is already assured by the cross. Judgment is the working of God's power and wisdom within each life to bring all to the image of His Blessed Son. Judgment and Mercy are two strands of the same cord.
Quote from: Shev on September 03, 2016, 08:59:10 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
This puts me mind of the law of redemption and jubilee. In the first forty-nine years, anyone can be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer (which is the relationship of the elect and Christ), but in the fiftieth year, EVERYONE was set free, and all lands returned to the original owner.
I don't see forgiveness and judgment as the same thing, as far as the OP. Forgiveness is already assured by the cross. Judgment is the working of God's power and wisdom within each life to bring all to the image of His Blessed Son. Judgment and Mercy are two strands of the same cord.
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :banana:
Quote from: jabcat on September 01, 2016, 10:00:38 PM
Quote from: CST on September 01, 2016, 05:23:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 10:19:28 PM
Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3). We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked] to me...and at the very least, not "good"
Quote from: CST on August 31, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.
I disagree and I explained why above. IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth. But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5). We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here. Thanks.
Now you seem to be talking like an ETer.
I don't think applying such labels in this case serves any useful purpose. Your statement that Jesus said those things for shock is of course your opinion, with which I disagree. I think He was calling it correctly. Also Paul says similar when not talking directly to unbelievers, so not apparently trying to "shock" anybody.
Quote from: CST on September 01, 2016, 05:23:16 PM
Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.
I didn't say salvation is a doctrine. That's why I don't typcially engage in ongoing convoluted, circular "arguments". Because that's what they become. If we don't agree, as long as we're both trying to understand our view from within the scriptures, that's fine, let's move on and we'll understand it better later.
You seem to be taking my label out of context. 'The thief comes only to kill, steal and destroy.' This is the Bible the thief, one would imagine is Satan. Satan doesn't create things, he destroys things he's not the father to anything in the way God is the father to all things. If some beings are not in fact of God and He is not there Father I can not see how UR can be true, no has no responsibility for things He didn't create. Not only that but anything that God didn't create is in opposition to Him as long as it exists because it is not part of His purpose and shouldn't things that have no part in God's purpose we can reasonable expect to pass away for good. If this includes people who are 'children of the Devil' than those people are doomed because God didn't come to save them or need to save them. They're not His problem. Since I believe they are His creation and responsibility, ie His children, I believe He intends to save them.
You didn't say 'salvation' was a doctrine but you seemed to be suggesting that UR was with equal weight to ET and ED for those who believe them. If I understood you correctly believing ET or ED and promoting it above and over UR is no obstacle for a person who believes any of them and has received faith of Jesus being saved in the first resurrection. I do not, cannot believe that.
Also it is written in the first epistle of John:
'If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;' (1 John 1:6) and 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.' (1 John 1:8,10)
This statement that if we deny the clear testimony of the Word of God, we make Him a liar and commit a very serious offense is a repeated theme of this epistle also referenced at:
'He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;' (1 John 2:4), plus 'I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.' (1 John 2:21)
John has already taught in his Gospel that Jesus has declared Himself to be the Truth. If John says things like 'the truth is not in him' or 'His word is not in us' it can mean nothing less that Jesus does not live in that person and they never received Him. If follows therefore that whatever they might claim they do not follow Jesus and have not received grace yet. Although it does initially continue, 'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.' (1 John 2:22) Which seems to rather limit the offense rather beyond what the original examples suggested.
It also declares: 'If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.' (1 John 4:16) A lot of ET and ED advocates would seem to be liars given what they hope and expect to happen to those brothers (and sister) that they would not have happen to themselves.
At the end of the epistle John returns to his original theme when he tells us: 'He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son.' (1 John 5:10) And this chapter has as part of it's conclusion, 'If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.' (1 John 5:16) I find that a scary passage even as an advocate of UR, not that there is a sin that is mortal necessarily but that John does not ask the reader to pray those who commit that sin (if I've understood correctly). That sounds scary it can't be above God's ability to forgive so why not pray for those that commit it. Or better if it's so bad pray that it is never committed. Does John say what that sin is? Hard to tell, in context making God out to be a liar by denying His testimony seems a good candidate.
This is a problem I have with the idea that there are little and big differences in doctrine and it doesn't matter which ones you believe as long as you believe the important one about salvation through Jesus Christ. No, it seems to me that the Bible teaches here that if you hold any doctrine that would be contrary to what He has actually revealed and testified too, you would be guilty of the sin of making Him out a liar (which He obviously isn't) and do not have the Word or Truth in you. This is what the Bible teaches, from the beginning of his next epsitle:
'Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.' (2 John 1:9-11)
To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.
Quote from: Abigail on September 01, 2016, 11:41:02 PM
I've not read all the thread, just responding to OP.
I've come to see judgement more as a 'setting straight' then as a condemning thing. On a worldwide as well as on a personal level.
I've also come to see forgiveness of sin has mainly to do with setting free of sin. Traditionally, sin is seen as something God holds against us (even though He provides a way to forgive). I believe Jesus showed us that He came to save sinners, save them from their sin. Speaking of sin as a sickness, and of Himself as a Doctor. And that same Jesus is the one who is appointed to be the Judge of the World.
I quote/translate from a Dutch universalist writer:
'What would it mean if their would be no wrath of God? It would mean that God would leave the earth to what people make of it. The evil would go on and death would have the last say, and God would consent to it. The wrath of God means that He doesn't consent to this, that He doesn't consent leaving the earth and all that lives on it to evil. He maintains his purpose with His creation. Everything is about that purpose. The deliverance of Creation of everything that harms it. The wrath of God is completely at het service of this deliverance, that is: His saving justice.'
Interesting, I like much of that. Though I'm not sure at all that the phrase 'wrath of God' is actually equal to judgement in Biblical terms.
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 12:28:44 AM
I know we arent to be too hard on anyone...but, it's a bit irritating when 'hellists' continue to push the hellist belief in everlasting torment even after being confronted with all the UR evidence in Scripture...when I was confronted with this evidence i changed track pretty much immediately...I changed from being a hellist, to doubting it, within the space of a couple of weeks..it bothers me when the hellist stubbornly hold onto their evil idea of God even after seeing the evidence for UR..I cannot help being bothered, I'm only human..in a sense they are misrepresenting Jesus, whom i love dearly cause they insist Jesus will torment precious human beings forever...I can only pray for them, if they will not agree after hearing the UR evidence...no point getting upset with them.
Oh, snap! I most definitely agree it's why I get annoyed when jabcat, to me, seems to suggest that ET and ED advocates have a first resurrection ticket to Heaven despite the fact they have presented god/Jesus in the most appalling light because they accept Him as Saviour of them, not of the World, of them.
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
Quote from: Patinak on September 02, 2016, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
darryl,
Thank you for the post. You have described the God I worship.
Quote from: sheila on September 02, 2016, 04:19:55 PM
mine,too!
Quote from: rosered on September 02, 2016, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Patinak on September 02, 2016, 09:00:32 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
darryl,
Thank you for the post. You have described the God I worship.
Quote from: sheila on September 02, 2016, 04:19:55 PM
mine,too!
Mine as well ...........
I am convinced that the good and evil does serve God and give Him ALL the glory , proving both in His two edged SWORD OF TRUTH ..
MERCY IS THE VERY CORE OF SPIRITUAL HEALING ..
and the mercy seat is on of those things they did not speak of in Hebrews 9
The Earthly Tabernacle
...4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.
Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
5Above the ark were the cherubim of glory, overshadowing the mercy seat.
But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6When everything had been prepared in this way,
the priests entered regularly into the outer room to perform their sacred duties....
and many more things are yet to be revealed when we can bear them at Gods perfect desire to have it be made known fully ...
I DO BELIEVE ALL WILL KNOW THAT LOVE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that any one could ever possess as being LIFE itself . .
This is eternal LIFE THE PRAYER OF JESUS CHRIST TO humanity John 17
...2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,
the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do.... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Shev on September 03, 2016, 08:59:10 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 02, 2016, 03:06:37 AM
you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:
This puts me mind of the law of redemption and jubilee. In the first forty-nine years, anyone can be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer (which is the relationship of the elect and Christ), but in the fiftieth year, EVERYONE was set free, and all lands returned to the original owner.
I don't see forgiveness and judgment as the same thing, as far as the OP. Forgiveness is already assured by the cross. Judgment is the working of God's power and wisdom within each life to bring all to the image of His Blessed Son. Judgment and Mercy are two strands of the same cord.
Wow, people here are feeling incredibly optimistic of late. Wish I could share it I've tried it in the past. I've thought about things like when Death goes into the Lake of Fire the Book of Life might well get very full because it says that the last enemy to be destroyed is Death and once it is it cannot keep anyone in it's power and thus in a condition that might keep them out of the Book of Life. I also remember that in 1 Samuel it is recorded that when Saul was appointed King of Israel (yes, I know) a number of people protested and after he had his first victory his supporters declared, '"Who is it that said, 'Shall Saul reign over us?' Bring the men, that we may put them to death."' (1 Samuel 11:12) and that Saul responded '"Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has wrought deliverance in Israel."' (1 Samuel 11:13) now I'm aware Saul turned out to be a poor king and this decision seems not only to have been merciful but somewhat fair given that one victory (especially one actually won by God) does not a good king make but I nevertheless can't help noticing no-one ever seems to fault Saul for this particular decision and thus it makes be wonder what would happen if God took this principle and applied it to His ultimate victory over evil.
Quote from: CST on September 03, 2016, 05:23:45 PM
...get so annoyed...
To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.
I didn't say that either. My belief more accurately is, that even if some doctrines are incorrect, if the Holy Spirit has drawn them to believe on Jesus as Savior, they are in Christ.
the Victory is won of God through Christ..and He turns Saul's into Paul's.
Quote from: sheila on September 03, 2016, 06:54:28 PM
the Victory is won of God through Christ..and He turns Saul's into Paul's.
absolutely :thumbsup:
the Gospel is a two edged sword..salvation unto all men...but the preaching of repentance and ed unto the fallen angels unless they repent
Jesus preached to both [spirits bound in prison house of this earth,awaiting judgement.] Men have not understood this....and wrong-
fully divided with the sword..applying LOF and ed to men....... He cam to save men..and tell demons to repent from their evil/wicked works
Paul's ministry unto the little dogs..........demon possesed gentiles. we have to seperate the big dog[evil possesing spirit] from the little
dogs[men they possess]. at the 'word of God/Christ" with faith..what was formerly declared unclean...is clean[possesed men]
Just as Saul did not wait upon Samuel...and offered unlawful/strange fire,so,too,Saul/Paul offered unlawful sacrifice of judgement
and condemnation of those atoned for by Christ.... God desires.mercy over sacrifice......Healing and restoration of man over
eternal destruction.
so et and ed...though the little children have mis-applied the correct 'edges' of the sword are still a flaming cherub guarding the way
to the tol..but they must suffer the little children to come unto Him..for the little children's sins/missing the mark are forgiven for
His sake. they mirror..communion with the natural..cracker/grapejuice..preach repentance/condemnation on those who refuse to
repent and accept Christ[the prince of this world killed Him to seize His vineyard} the problem is the people in them may find themselves
in blind/folds[sheep-pens] unless they learn to hear His voice and He lead them unto living waters and abundant pastures.TOL
God doesn't judge us. He just wants to be our Father.
See everything under "G" on this page: http://www.rockofyork.co.uk/on-the-pulse/
God definitely judges all. His judgement will be swallowed up by His mercy, but in the meantime He, as a loving Father and as our Creator, will bring us to accountabilty as He teaces us His ways.
His judgment is composed of several elements and mercy is one of them.
Even when God judges us He is merciful ....otherwise we would be consumed (Lamentations 3:16-23; Psalm 107 entire)
God's judgment causes discernment, He judges us to show us the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13)
God is not "judging" every minute or every little thing. He is patient and merciful. (2 Peter 3:9; Ex 34:6)
God receives our acknowledgment of our sins as an acceptable sacrifice.(Luke 18:11-14).
No one needs to fear the judgment of God because ultimately, all judgment leads to awareness, humility, repentence and reconciliation. But fear has torment, and fear lives where ignorance and unrighteousness reign. The answer to such is not to cut the judgment of God out of the gospel. It is to proclaim His patient mercy and His willingness to provide grace to all who seek Him, and deliverance to the humble whatever their struggles.
Predators and idolators Beware, God is not mocked. As a man sows so shalll He also reap. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you so to the Spirit you will reap ever increasing life. :o)
If all you can sow is, "God have mercy on me a sinner"- God who sees the secrets of our hearts will receive us into eternal dwelling places, and grant grace as we stay honest and humble before Him.
ET =
UR =
ED =
John 4:
21"Believe Me, woman," Jesus replied, "a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth."
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us."
26Jesus answered, "I who speak to you am He."
From a different 'angle' so to speak, God must judge, because we must all be aligned in truth. God is truth....the measurement by which all is judged, as He is the great "I AM"; the Alpha and the Omega; the Creator of all things. He alone has set all in motion, and He alone will bring all things to Himself, at the end of time, when death is no more.
To be able to come to God, He will bring us to this 'path' of Spirit and Truth. And, that path will lead us all home, to Him.
So, to do this, He must know our hearts, and, yes, judge where we are along the path, and then in His love, transform us. I, personally, believe He does this with our consent, as I do believe in 'free will'. We must repent. It is not always an easy process....this transformation....but it is a beautiful one.
And the 'perks' are eternal life with Him.
:cloud9:
D.
Quote from: jabcat on September 03, 2016, 05:47:54 PM
Quote from: CST on September 03, 2016, 05:23:45 PM
...get so annoyed...
To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.
I didn't say that either. My belief more accurately is, that even if some doctrines are incorrect, if the Holy Spirit has drawn them to believe on Jesus as Savior, they are in Christ.
Hmm, you lifting everything I say out of context by editing my replies the way you're doing creates some confusing results. I didn't say you said that, I said you seemed, to me (not the 'too me') to be saying that because you didn't think that UR was the Gospel (which you did state) a person who didn't believe UR (like an ET or ED advocate as they'd be the only people covered here) but did accept the Gospel as you understand it:
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 12:32:56 AM
I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again. Paul said that is the Gospel. UR is not The Gospel. It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ. That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime. But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.
Fine, what about one of our favourites: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.' (John 3:16-17)
Is that the Gospel also? Or is it not? Now obviously that goes a little further but this is sufficient for my point. UR, to me, begins with two questions which I'm sure you've heard before:
1. Does 'the World' actually mean 'the World'?
Basically is the 'our' in your sentence actually everyone? Did Jesus die for the sins of everyone?
2.Was what Jesus did sufficient to be effective in that goal?
That doesn't need much rephrasing. The answer to both these questions is binary. Either Jesus was crucified for everyone or He wasn't, either the crucifixion holds the power to effect this salvation for everyone or it doesn't. I was of the impression that the position of UR advocates like us is that the answer to both these questions is 'Yes' and that the Bible teaches this. But you're saying this isn't the Gospel even though the 'Gospel' is the good news and if UR is not true than in fact the Gospel is very bad news for an awful lot of people who for no real fault of there own (not any above and other other people) God didn't choose them for receiving His gift of salvation. How can you not consider UR to be part of the Gospel when the question of whether it is true, over ET or ED, very much changes the meaning and scope of that Gospel?
To me there is one true doctrine which has been revealed by God though perhaps not without ambiguity in certain parts. But that True doctrine, revealed by Jesus and in, is also what John refers to when he says to reject any who preach otherwise. But this doctrine is True and thus equal to fact. I am aware we can't know all the correct parts of the True doctrine yet and the Holy Spirit is working it out within us as we grow. But I have a great deal of difficulty not seeing accepting UR as co-extensive with accepting the True Gospel given that other understanding not only change the meaning as mentioned above but misrepresent that which you should be receiving.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2016, 01:06:16 AM
God definitely judges all. His judgement will be swallowed up by His mercy, but in the meantime He, as a loving Father and as our Creator, will bring us to accountabilty as He teaces us His ways.
His judgment is composed of several elements and mercy is one of them.
Even when God judges us He is merciful ....otherwise we would be consumed (Lamentations 3:16-23; Psalm 107 entire)
God's judgment causes discernment, He judges us to show us the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13)
God is not "judging" every minute or every little thing. He is patient and merciful. (2 Peter 3:9; Ex 34:6)
God receives our acknowledgment of our sins as an acceptable sacrifice.(Luke 18:11-14).
No one needs to fear the judgment of God because ultimately, all judgment leads to awareness, humility, repentence and reconciliation. But fear has torment, and fear lives where ignorance and unrighteousness reign. The answer to such is not to cut the judgment of God out of the gospel. It is to proclaim His patient mercy and His willingness to provide grace to all who seek Him, and deliverance to the humble whatever their struggles.
Predators and idolators Beware, God is not mocked. As a man sows so shalll He also reap. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you so to the Spirit you will reap ever increasing life. :o)
If all you can sow is, "God have mercy on me a sinner"- God who sees the secrets of our hearts will receive us into eternal dwelling places, and grant grace as we stay honest and humble before Him.
Welcome back, EW! You have been missed on this thread your absence has been noticed.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on September 05, 2016, 01:18:52 AM
ET =
UR =
ED =
ET, the doctrine of Everlasting Torment that teaches that at judgement God will send all the unrepentant wicked to suffer indescribable agonies endlessly.
ED, Everlasting Destruction, the doctrine that teaches that instead God will annihilate all the wicked ones instead of the above.
UR, Universal Reconciliation, which teaches the God will (in His own God time) save everyone any bring them out of whateversuffers His necessary and righteous judgements inflict
Quote from: CST on September 05, 2016, 08:02:58 PM
Quote from: jabcat on September 03, 2016, 05:47:54 PM
Quote from: CST on September 03, 2016, 05:23:45 PM
...get so annoyed...
To me the idea that all doctrines have equal weight as long as they can be argued to have some Biblical support and the holder believes in the basic doctrine of salvation through faith of Jesus is erroneous and unbiblical.
I didn't say that either. My belief more accurately is, that even if some doctrines are incorrect, if the Holy Spirit has drawn them to believe on Jesus as Savior, they are in Christ.
Hmm, you lifting everything I say out of context by editing my replies the way you're doing creates some confusing results. I didn't say you said that, I said you seemed, to me (not the 'too me') to be saying that because you didn't think that UR was the Gospel (which you did state) a person who didn't believe UR (like an ET or ED advocate as they'd be the only people covered here) but did accept the Gospel as you understand it:
Quote from: jabcat on August 31, 2016, 12:32:56 AM
I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again. Paul said that is the Gospel. UR is not The Gospel. It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ. That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime. But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.
Fine, what about one of our favourites: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.' (John 3:16-17)
Is that the Gospel also? Or is it not? Now obviously that goes a little further but this is sufficient for my point. UR, to me, begins with two questions which I'm sure you've heard before:
1. Does 'the World' actually mean 'the World'?
Basically is the 'our' in your sentence actually everyone? Did Jesus die for the sins of everyone?
2.Was what Jesus did sufficient to be effective in that goal?
That doesn't need much rephrasing. The answer to both these questions is binary. Either Jesus was crucified for everyone or He wasn't, either the crucifixion holds the power to effect this salvation for everyone or it doesn't. I was of the impression that the position of UR advocates like us is that the answer to both these questions is 'Yes' and that the Bible teaches this. But you're saying this isn't the Gospel even though the 'Gospel' is the good news and if UR is not true than in fact the Gospel is very bad news for an awful lot of people who for no real fault of there own (not any above and other other people) God didn't choose them for receiving His gift of salvation. How can you not consider UR to be part of the Gospel when the question of whether it is true, over ET or ED, very much changes the meaning and scope of that Gospel?
To me there is one true doctrine which has been revealed by God though perhaps not without ambiguity in certain parts. But that True doctrine, revealed by Jesus and in, is also what John refers to when he says to reject any who preach otherwise. But this doctrine is True and thus equal to fact. I am aware we can't know all the correct parts of the True doctrine yet and the Holy Spirit is working it out within us as we grow. But I have a great deal of difficulty not seeing accepting UR as co-extensive with accepting the True Gospel given that other understanding not only change the meaning as mentioned above but misrepresent that which you should be receiving.
I'm not going to go in circles, nit-picking things to death just for the sake of it. You said exactly what I quoted, including something I didn't quote, that those who don't believe in UR are not in Christ.
I believe in UR. Still, the SIMPLICITY of the Gospel is Jesus Christ, crucified, risen again.
I believe it's very clear in scripture that even those who have misunderstandings about many things, including eternal torment, can still be in Christ - no, absolutely
are in Christ - if the Holy Spirit has drawn them and they've been given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. That's His work and determination, not ours. Then more is revealed as we go. Some in this lifetime, some, probably most, in the next age. I don't believe it's a tenable scriptural position to say one must believe in UR to be saved, be a believer, be a redeemed blood-washed saint. If you want to believe that, that's of course your prerogative. But I've thought long about it and am solid on my belief. I
don't believe only UR'ers are children of God (in the saved sense), and I personally believe advocating that UR'ers are the "only ones" is not helpful to say the least. I don't believe that, Gary doesn't believe that, and that's not the position of this board. If you've changed your stance that ET and ED believers can indeed be in Christ, that's good.
I'm not going to go in circles with you and nit-pick everything to death. While here we all need to please stay within the confines and
spirit of posting guidelines. It's listed right at the top of the board home page under Posting Guidelines and probably a good refresher :) Thanks.
Everyone who confesses Jesus as their Lord and means it, and bellieves that God has raised Him from the dead, is in Christ.
Some walk in the flesh. Some walk in the Spirit. Some are members of churches that are doctrinally confused. Some belong to churches that hold doctrines of the devil, but at present they do not understand it, being held in the terrible grip of religion and legalism.
Everyone who is in Christ is held to a different standard, but only the Lord knows the secrets of our hearts. We are given certain injunctons- works for which anyone who claims to be in Christ still doing them ought to be held accountable for the purpose of reconiliation and restoration if possible..... in extreme cases certain conduct can result in being separated from the protective covering of the community under His Lordship.
All of these things are self evident through out the scriptures, and they require discernment, wisdom, understanding and good judgment.
These things do not come by intellectual argumentation. They come through discipleship, laboring in the word and in the spirit, rightly dividing the word of truth- and being rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit.
Everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their sensibilities to distinguish good from evil.
Constant use in the word and the Spirit and the walk in the yoke bearing the cross is the pathway to service and maturity.
"You do not know what Spirit you are of"......
It is possible to be in Christ- as the disciples were; Be immature- as the disciples were; and to not kno the Spirit you ought to walk in- as the dsciples did.
Act wisely toward outsiders, redeeming the time. 6Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4
In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.Mt 5
Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. ..........
20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work......
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
We are members of a wide house.
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
How do we know the difference between what is the wisdom from above and what is the wisdom from below?
it is the same as the difference between the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Different trees produce different fruit even as they use the same words. Just as there are two wells in each of us there are also two trees. The one whose shade under which we dwell is the one that grows and becomes ascendant in our character...."knowledge puffs up, love builds up".... the hollow head of the tare betrays it as an imitation of the wheat, and still- the wheat must be beaten, to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the chaff burned with unquenchable fire, before the Lord will gather it into the storehouse.
Again, constant use is required. "Come unto be, and take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your soul."
"Blessed is the man whose delight is the law of the Lord and in it He des meditate day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the streams of living water, whose leaf does not whither, bearing fruit in season" Psalm 2
In revelation we see the river coming from beneath the throne and beside it trees of life grow, bearing fruit for the healing of the nations. There is no tree of the knowledge of good and evil growing along that river.
"The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned." Is 50:4
Jesus spoke about those who make confident assertions about things they know nothing of. In this wide house such people are vessels unfit for holy use, but they have their purpose. Paul said that God uses heretics to make manifest those who are approved.
Manifest to who?
Those who seek His face.
Manifest how? by the character of Christ in their humble service.
On the surface of the the diamond are facets and sharp edges. They glint and gleam and cut. But it is down in the core of the stone that the prism separates the colors of light and His hidden glory dwells- not as knowledge, but as wisdom and understanding, and a spirit of reconciliation that seeks to heal and redeem.
All this requires judgment. But it is God's judgment anf He does not judge like men do, just to make evildoers pay. His judgment separates the pure from the impure and purges the mixture out so that the Lord receives an acceptable offering. Separating the spiritual from the carnal requires more than knowledge and study. It requires experience in the spirit, walking in the fire, and doctrines only matter as they are manifestations of light integrated into the wisdom that is from above - a seed whose harvest is righteousness- full of mercy and good fruits.
very good post John. :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2016, 01:06:16 AM
God definitely judges all. His judgement will be swallowed up by His mercy, but in the meantime He, as a loving Father and as our Creator, will bring us to accountabilty as He teaces us His ways.
His judgment is composed of several elements and mercy is one of them.
Even when God judges us He is merciful ....otherwise we would be consumed (Lamentations 3:16-23; Psalm 107 entire)
God's judgment causes discernment, He judges us to show us the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2:16; Hebrews 4:12,13)
God is not "judging" every minute or every little thing. He is patient and merciful. (2 Peter 3:9; Ex 34:6)
God receives our acknowledgment of our sins as an acceptable sacrifice.(Luke 18:11-14).
No one needs to fear the judgment of God because ultimately, all judgment leads to awareness, humility, repentence and reconciliation. But fear has torment, and fear lives where ignorance and unrighteousness reign. The answer to such is not to cut the judgment of God out of the gospel. It is to proclaim His patient mercy and His willingness to provide grace to all who seek Him, and deliverance to the humble whatever their struggles.
Predators and idolators Beware, God is not mocked. As a man sows so shalll He also reap. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you so to the Spirit you will reap ever increasing life. :o)
If all you can sow is, "God have mercy on me a sinner"- God who sees the secrets of our hearts will receive us into eternal dwelling places, and grant grace as we stay honest and humble before Him.
amen. As I understand and believe; I believe God's judgments lead to mercy..but it is "a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God". Many of our perceptions surely vary, but there is only one God and He does not change. God is our daddy, but He's not a fuzzy, senile old pappy who doesn't have the heart to discipline either His children, or the devil's children to being them into the fold. There is indeed a benefit to believing on Him now. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world." We are unworthy, and we should be humbled by it and give Him praise. But if He has chosen to give faith to believe, Jesus said to "rejoice that your name is written in the book of life". Our attitudes need to be of humility, not boasting in our own works, but in the cross of Christ.
As brother Eby often writes, He will do whatever it takes to bring us to a place of repentance. Some in this life, I believe most in the next. Many may almost instantly recognize Him as Lord and Savior. Others, it seems our Lord addresses, during a time when unbelievers experience age-during correction. Only He knows what each needs.
Matthew 25:41
"Depart from Me, you cursed ones, into that aionian fire... and these shall go away into a cutting-off age lasting."
(Diaglott)
Matthew 25:41
"And these He will dismiss into a LONG CORRECTION."
(The Bible in Modern English by Farrar Fenton)
Matthew 25:41
"These shall go away into age-abiding correction."
(Rotherham's New Testament)
Matthew 25:41
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during."
(Young's Literal Translation)
As quoted in a Gary Amirault article, "when looking at those words in the Greek.. those..references turn out to be 'age-during correction."
God has the "right" to judge because He is the I AM and we're to bow before Him. And we will - now, or later. J. Preston Eby writes; "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with weapons that are mighty through God. You have to make war on the carnal mind and the fleshly nature with fire, divine fire, that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around. Make no mistake! OUR GOD I-S A CONSUMING FIRE! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-conquering cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."
Which churches hold doctrines of the Devil?
Thanks CST.
Some fear the judgment of God because they struggle with sin.
God is not judging the hapless sinner in the same way He judges deliberate predators. Some of us find it hard to believe that there are people who deliberately reject God and murder, rape, steal, torture and oppress with cold intelligent willfulness.
We try to remove the judgment of God from the scriptures for our own sakes, stumblers and strugllers we are- but we do not need to.
Paul says in Romans 7, "So with my mind I serve the law of God but with my flesh I serve the law of sin"
God understands the struggles of those who believe in Him yet still struggle with the flesh. All believers still struggle with the flesh and the carnal mind in some measure.
But there are different worlds.
There is a world in which people are ignorant of what we understand- but still they are "without excuse" because God's eternal power and divine nature are clearly displayed in the things He has made. (Rom 1) They will be judged by the exposure of the secrets of their hearts, their conscience either accusing or excusing them (Rom 2)
There is a world in which people actually kno God but willfully reject Him and pursue evil of the deepest kinds because they believe God can be mocked and evaded and they have chosen to reap now by force and deceit. (Rom 1 James 5:1 Luke 6:24)
There is a world in which people constantly justify themselves and subvert the truth f their selfishness beneath a glaze of goodness, religion and philosophy. To them the very idea that they need a Savior, or are sinners in anyway- is utterly repulsive and they must be shown who they are because they will never admit it of themselves.
Some of these folks will enter the age to come with the "worm" of their soul as it was woven through their lives still in need of death.
"In that Day I will slay Leviathan, the twisting fleeing serpent(worm) with the sword of my mouth. In that Day, sing of it- a vineyard, I water it day and night".
In every case the judgment of God is the sword of His mouth, "dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart" so that "every hidden thing will be brought to light".
Then the knee bows.... the tongue confesses "Jesus Christ is Lord" because He who is our judge is our Savior. He who tries the reigns and the hearts in every person has the right because He died for every person, loves every person, and will find every person, whether lost in lies or hardened in sin, and He will recover them.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Amen !!! pride being the subtle serpents wisdom and NOTHING is wiser than GOD ...
1 JOHN 3 Children of God
1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God.
And that is what we are!
The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed.
We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness.
5But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.
6No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.
7 Little children,b let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.
8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.
This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.
9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him;
he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished:
Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Love One Another
(John 13:31-35; Romans 12:9-13)
11This is the message you have heard from the beginning:
We should love one another.
12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own deeds were evil, while those of his brother were righteous. 13So do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you.
14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?
18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth.
19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things.
21Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God,
22and we will receive from Him whatever we ask, because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing in His sight.
23And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.
24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.
Truth is praying for your enemies , loving them anyways is so easy to say and hard to do , trying not to be angry with them , when they just keep taking
advantage of your kindness and treat you like your easy prey and stupid , stealing your joy and peace you have in the Lord and your own personal items from your garage and barn and tool shed , like you are a open store to shop from what ever they want , whenever they want ... and lie on you and boast great things , a heart of covetousness and it does bring judgment :sigh:
I have been though this trial of faith many times over now many many years and admit it has been hard to battle off the bad /evil feelings , I know it must be pride still in me somewhere , because this is very frustrating till that finally ends in literal death , either way it is silly stuff , but can make your heart hard and loving your enemies and praying for them is just now working for the good , by being able to help them even , but that is not even enough , they are like the horse leech it is never enough !! proverbs 30
32Do not covet, lest you be despised, and do not stretch your hand to your mouth in depravity.
33From the fat of the milk butter comes forth, but if you squeeze your hand upon wheat, blood will come forth, so from contention among people judgment goes forth.
I KNOW GOD PROVIDES everything and some things are just not important at all , but robber and thieves spirits whom feel they are entitled to everything and everyone , I know about that .
I know whatever judgment comes by the Lord is justified and deserving of correction , growing in spiritual maturity is a painful process .
and just as in all things in life and death saying it is easy and so very hard to do , indeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is WEAK .