So what gives God the right to Judge us?

[sheila]

but many will not taste 'death/cross" until they see Him coming in power and great Glory.When the Lord had revealed unto Peter

  by what death he would glorify God...then Peter asked...what about his brother[thinking the revelation concerned the disciple

whom Jesus loved[bosom position] but the parable of Lazarus shows the rich man and Lazarus..who recieved the great poverty of spirit

  in this world..where dogs licked his wounds...and he hungered for a crumb from the rich man's table. The rich man is the evil 1 talent

   doctrine that many churches  preach. Jesus said 'what is it to you[to those called to service]? you must follow me. Lazarus wasn't called

as a disciple in this life. and given power to cast outserpents and all power over the enemy.he is of the little dogs/demon possesed

   shut out of the Kingdom while in this life.  Christ raised Lazarus from the tomb to show this very truth

[sheila]

as Creator..He judges His handy work..who better.  He said...'the vessel was marred in my hand" He has authority to remake it..and that

  is what He is doing.....very good for us[man]  He always does RIGHT by His creation...and though He sowed it weak in corruption

  He raises it up in incorruption and power! Delivering us from him that was stronger than us while dwelling in weak flesh.

   God through Jesus also judged that the spirit of man was willing..but the flesh weak.

[jabcat]

as Creator..He judges His handy work..who better.  He said...'the vessel was marred in my hand" He has authority to remake it..and that

  is what He is doing.....very good for us[man]  He always does RIGHT by His creation...and though He sowed it weak in corruption

  He raises it up in incorruption and power! Delivering us from him that was stronger than us while dwelling in weak flesh.

   God through Jesus also judged that the spirit of man was willing..but the flesh weak.

amen  :thumbsup:

[chester-blowfold]

IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).

from J. Preston Eby

Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.

Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.

The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you are saying were forced into believing in Gods love through pain and suffering?

[CST]

hat sounds a wise statement and the passage from Isaiah you are quoting one of the better responses but the fact remains that especially because most Christians advertise ET as the final outcome for most of the species the question has great weight with atheists. They will take it further and may say that, if we say with Sheila none of us deserve the free gift of grace, well then why do we deserve to be labelled wicked by a God who made us as we are and never gave us the ability to do good for ourselves unless He gives us that unmerited grace. He not only created us when we did not ask it, He created us damned when we didn't ask it and only this 'unmerited' gift of grace can save us from being damned this puts us in an immediate double debt on a loan we never asked for and spent before we knew we had it. Or at it can seem that way under certain interpretations of the theology. Hence this question. This site is to discuss and further the promotion of UR and this question is a big hurdle to such promotion.

I  think James should answer   you CST ,

But , you have  some  very thoughtful and honest  questions and answers   ,  They can make us all think  !, I believe this is an excellent thread   Chester has   started .

I   would answer you   , This    , God is glorified    doubly  in the earth and  by the carnal  mind   ,, I think of Jesus saying , you being evil , that is mindful of earthly things  , know  how to give "good" gifts to your children  , How much more will the heavenly Father  give    good gifts , these being of the Holy Spirit to those whom ask Him ...   Spiritual gifts to the spiritual mind [Christ' anointed  one" ] that is .


  I do believe the grace being that  free gift  of faith is where by faith   is the spiritual increase of God   adding the rewards  that are WITH HIM ...   Eph 2 Alive with Christ
...7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace,

demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,

and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast....   That anointing of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh  is available to all    whom will come  to the knowledge of truth ....

Those are the things  that come to my own mind , when you presented your reply ...

  God bless ......

Don't worry to much. I've essentially satisfied myself with how to answer these questions I raise but I mention them as an expression that I understand what those like Chester and those like him might be thinking and I don't think we should just dismiss them.

Because there are two kingdoms down here...mankind.the children of God...and a 'wicked' kingdom of demonic spirits.  people have

failed to discern the 'wicked/evil" one  that God deliver's mankind from. Esau I have hated..means God is addressing the wicked spirits that

possess  Esau.....He hates the works of the prince of this world..even the demonic spirits that possess and bring forth their corrupt image

  through and in man.....He loves man. Jesus come to set us free from such...and as High Priest 'washes' the sacrifices'these words I speak

to you make you clean/but not all...have I not chosen you twelve but one of you is a devil[spirit on Judas]

  with His 'word" we have to divide man from the evil contrast. and He shall appear again 'seperate' from sin[the evil contrast] and

we shall be just like Him. Just as ALL men have bore the image of the corrupt one[sin/wicked one] so.too,shall all men bear

the image of the incorrupt one.  and He shall seperate the people as a shepherd seperates sheep from goats. man is sheep

goats/scapegoat/Azazael=the evil one He saves us from..our 'sin' He takes away. This sanctifies man..the LOF consumes

  the evil one......even the 'certain sons of perdition/men" that by the Breath of His coming consumes.  It's a consumation

an end of sin and death and immortality and the incorrupt image of Christ all men shall bear.

I don't think the Bible ever says Esau was demon possessed anywhere, I can't help thinking that if Esau was demon possessed the reunion with Jacob wouldn't have been so successful.

Re: "hurdle to UR"...Do we think we can convince an atheist (or anyone else) to believe?  God decides to whom He gives faith to believe in this age.  Many will fight, resist, reject, blaspheme, and make all the arguments in the world, even against clearly stated scripture.  Because they/our hearts are hard and haven't as yet been softened or regenerated by the Holy Spirit.  Many will find the cross of Christ foolishness and an offense. 1 Cor. 1:18         At the end of the age/in the next age, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.  Share, declare the truth in love.  Jesus saves those He will, and when.  The Holy Spirit must draw.  All the best arguments in the world (on one side or the other) cannot accomplish or substitue the Holy Spirit's work.   

I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results. 

Fine, then we have no purpose. If UR is the correct faith then that is what people should receive when God gives the grace, people who believe in ET or ED have never received God's grace and are perishing. So while everything you say is true who are we trying to convince? There is no point promoting UR if all the people who hear our message reject it because they haven't received God's grace. There is no point promoting Christianity if God hasn't given grace to the people you're preaching to. No, God can give grace to whom He chooses but they won't be able to confess that grace and what it means until somebody goes to them and tells them the truth not a bit of the truth, the truth.

Going by you're next post I see it the opposite way round to you although I doubt it matters which comes the Grace or the Gospel, we need both before we can see. But the Eby quote does invite the question, if we are 'totally depraved' having no choice, what is Adam who the text suggests did have a choice and chose wrongly. Does that not make Adam worse than us all?

I always 'abhor myself' but that's still never made sense to me either. God just makes an argument that because Job can't explain or perform all the marvelous acts God can and has done in creating the world that makes it OK for God to do whatever the Hell He likes up to and including allowing Satan to kill dozens of His children He's made in order to make a point about another one. Sounds very impartial.

But I'm not sure you really got my point. You just seem to be repeating an argument Paul made in the epistles, which is the best thing really because they're authorized, but I can remember reading that very same argument when I accepted the premise of ET, and I'm sure I've said this before, and it just seems to have all the wait of 'If God claiming to be supremely loving decides to torture you, your loved ones and countless others who you've never met in agonizing pain and sorrow for all time because He can, you are you to argue?" Then it because a massive problem and UR doesn't have the weight it ought to. I was simply trying to argue the way out of that problem.

Hey CST - I was actually answering the literal question of the OP, which was "what gives God the right to judge us?" To me, His right to treat His creation how He wants come from creation equaling ownership. If He did not have that right, we would have somewhere or someone to appeal to, as Him contravening lawful His boundaries, but we don't. So even if ET were true (which thankfully it is not), He clearly does have the "right" to judge His creation, as we belong to Him, are in His power, and have no recourse. A "right" is something that can be enforced or resisted according to legality, and we have no way of resisting Him - no cosmic court before which we can appear to indict Him, should we feel He has overreached Himself.

The questions of His nature, and whether His treatment of His creation is fair, are separate to His actual right to do as He pleases. ET would be unfair if true, whereas UR is the very manifestation of fairness. I am a believer in UR, and believe ET to be a satanic false doctrine of the first order, so of course I am grateful that we have a God who, although He can do as He pleases, is Love, and therefore is unfolding a marvelous story that shall culminate in the salvation and joy of all mankind, with even creation itself being released from it's bondage.

Maybe we spend too much time treating God as though He were a fallible man, with whims, instabilities and infirmities that we all suffer from in the flesh. To me, someone that can encode DNA, or stretch out the universe, create the lightening bolt and thunder cloud, or design a leaf, a blade of grass, or a human body, is too wonderful for me to fully comprehend while I am yet housed in the flesh, and for Him to have clothed Himself in that same flesh to die for mankind is a love so sublime, I cannot doubt His motives or character. For if I were to think He is unloving, where would I be saying love comes from? Do I know more about love than God? Do I generate it myself, and have done so well that I can lecture Him about how to be loving?

:smile: That final question really is the answer. Remember, though, again my point is always trying to acknowledge the original concerns because I have shared many of the in the past. I have also answered them to my own satisfaction but it can be hard to convince myself of them at all times.

IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).

from J. Preston Eby

Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.

Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.

The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you are saying were forced into believing in Gods love through pain and suffering?

No, it does quite work like that. It's actually rather more complicated. OK, I had this problem for a fair amount of time in address the question of God's right to judge us perhaps even condemn us. Do you know how I got around it? I abandoned the concept of free will. The passage that set me off I referenced earlier seem ed very against it so I threw it out of the equation. So I abandoned it and took up a position of independent and developing determinism. This means that the universe is a product of it's chemical process as are all of us in it. It can't change those process so we can't decide otherwise but we also can't be otherwise. That means that God has made us uniquely and utterly us, no one else us. God made the universe as it is but He still has control, He could have pushed it in a different direction whenever He wanted if He wished but He didn't and produced different beings and things but He didn't He push it in the direction that made us, He allowed us to be He chose us to be over all of those other beings.
You protest that there is pain in the universe, that objection is of you and part of your character. But if there was no pain or suffering you would have that experience and feeling and so that part of your character would be gone and so you wouldn't be you God would have made some else. But He didn't make someone else, He made you and is continuing, in some senses to do so. I have two phrases I use to express this fact the first is pretty basic the second even more so and both I believe to be true consciously but I concede that because we all experience that suffering you mentioned they can be very hard to feel sometimes. Those phrases:

Whenever you challenge God on how He made the world you always stake yourself.

The point here being that as mentioned above if God had made the world differently you'd have had a different experience of it and could not actually in fact be you.

The second one is the difficult one simply to say and believe in the mind, much harder to believe in the heart because of how much things hurt:

Do not ever say that God doesn't love us when we are the children He made.

(That's me very loosely paraphrasing 'God Put A Smile Upon Your Face' in case anyone is wondering. I can't promise I'm understanding the original correctly)

[sheila]

 I don't agree with Eby on that..when God made man...after His image and likeness...He said man was good[only God is good]

   man's REAL nature..to love do right be peaceable kind is patterned after God......man is happy loving and being loved......man

  is miserable with hate,strife and all the other evil nature.  So what happened? the seducer 'evil one" entered and sowed tare seed in

  the field[man's dusty flesh]  and due to the flesh's weakness..and the power of the enemy[who is stronger than flesh] the corrupt

nature of the adversary come forth with it's works in man's flesh...leading into much misery for man.

    sin in the flesh is condemned because of it's evil fruit...that leads to death/corruption.

    as all men have bore the image of corruption,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.....the restoration of man is

really the healing and bringing back man to His true nature/which is like God's...it is man's birthright which has been stolen by the evil

one..as he pits God's own sons against one another and God.


   look at the renewl...no more tears pain sickness death..new earth/heavens ABSENT of the evil ones nature. God's sons/daughter's

sown in corruption due to sin entering....restored.   what breaks us is the evil one/what heals and binds our wounds and restores

  is God. He wants us to obey Him because He doesn't want something horrible to happen to us[protective]

   Father's heart....Jerusalem..how I have wanted to take you under my wings/like a hen protecting her chicks..but you would not have

  it....so then we get broken[vessel] and He puts us togather again on the other side of the Jordan.   sometimes we learn the hard

way to listen to Him.

It is so important that man know God's kind intentions toward His children.........always receiving His prodigals home with open arms.

if on this side of the Jordan we be reconciled...He may even have you suffer for doing good...for the sake of the other children He loves

like Jesus. All men must know..that He is very tender and loving in His mercies to His children at all times.He does NOT repay evil

with evil...but there is a 'wicked one" that relishes nothing better than to persecute God's children. And He promises unto us

to destroy him.   Time we all know who the 'real' enemy is...and it's not your fellow man or God.


  now satan the accusor says man is rebellious and depraved...and thinks no one see's what he does/but God does....Jesus

said 'the Prince of this world is judged that his works are wicked" and God's captive sons that have been taken captive by the devil

will exhibit outwardly  these wicked works in their flesh. but tell me....what spirit is so rebellious that it was thrown out of heaven?

and unto this earth...and 'woe to us because of it" where he awaits judgement. For he that touches you touches the apple of God's eye

  even man...His sons and offspring. Man has not KNOWN what spirit he is of..he's been mis-informed that he's 'devil's seed" but


   Jesus showed us through the parable the parabolic meaning....God planted 'GOOD SEED" an enemy hath planted the tares.

and He showed the destiny of both.  Therefore,despise the face of no man,and from now on call no MAN UNCLEAN.

   This is part of the revealing of the SONS OF GOD..that the whole creation groans for...and also the revealing of the mystery

  of iniquity/lawless one.  when they are removed..just like the man with legions..man will be in His right mind...and freed through Christ.

   for if I cast out demons by the 'Finger of God/God's judgement" then the Kingdom of Heaven has come upon you.

   a law unto themselves...natural men  without relationship with God or Christ..that by nature love/kind/peaceable bears wittness

   that man's nature is in God's image.

[sheila]

Rightly deviding.....if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children" knowing what was 'IN' man  Jesus oft speaks

to the evil one dwelling in man..and unto man. The scripture preceding this statement..was about what Father gives a stone when a child

asks for bread? satan had done this very thing to Jesus in the wilderness..come with turn this stone into bread..if you are His son....


   satn as the prince of this world..also gives gifts of men to his offspring/see two wittness killed and the joy of giving gifts to one another..

   those gifts are men!!!!overcome saints.......

[sheila]

God hates the 'wicked one" not man...so any people/country nation etc He says He hates is because of their presence. and when God

cast out the wicked one..brotherly love and re-union occurrs. you can liken this between the church/saints and so called 'sinners"

  out there right now. when you mess with people's BIRTHRIGHT..this kind of stuff happens.

[jabcat]

IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).

from J. Preston Eby

Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.

Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.

The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you are saying were forced into believing in Gods love through pain and suffering?

God does judge, but even His judgments lead to mercy.  A lot of it could be pain and suffering from the consequences of the shape or our own heart and our choices and behavior.  The misery of separation from close relationship to Him and the death in many ways that brings, that He uses to bring us to the point of awareness of our need for the Savior.  Our will is at play.  We can either yeild willingly (with "gentle persuasion"), or with whatever level is required.  God searches and knows each heart's needs.

[jabcat]

quote cst    If UR is the correct faith then that is what people should receive when God gives the grace, people who believe in ET or ED have never received God's grace and are perishing. So while everything you say is true who are we trying to convince? There is no point promoting UR if all the people who hear our message reject it because they haven't received God's grace. There is no point promoting Christianity if God hasn't given grace to the people you're preaching to. No, God can give grace to whom He chooses but they won't be able to confess that grace and what it means until somebody goes to them and tells them the truth not a bit of the truth, the truth.


I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again.  Paul said that is the Gospel.  UR is not The Gospel.  It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ.  That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime.  But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.


quote jabcat  I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results. 


quote cst   Fine, then we have no purpose.



IMO, that is our purpose, or part of it.  Share, speak the truth in love, proclaim Jesus as Savior of the world, and as Paul said, "be you reconciled to God".  He also said "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?".  I believe God uses us to proclaim Him (share the Good News), be salt and light (speak [and live] the truth in love), and will use us (the forerunners, elect) to shepherd in many in the next age.

Again though, even though we share, speak, live truth, not all receive in this age.  Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust and move on at some point.  Paul also talks about fruitless discussions and inciting strife and dissension.  So I believe at some point it's OK, when Spirit led and released to do so, to leave something in God's hands and let Him handle it from there. We "preach" Jesus, but may not know until the next age even how God has "added to the fellowship those who were being saved".     Walking by the Spirit, not led by the flesh.  It's a challenge and sometimes we may get it right.   :2c:

[Tonie]

If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?

For we enjoy our new home golf simulator and are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

You can do all those things but do you have the right to judge them? I think so.   :Pray:

[rosered]

If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

You can do all those things but do you have the right to judge them? I think so.   :Pray:

Amen !!!   Being the Word  judges us all   and it is the incorruptible seed   planted in our hearts  , If you have no place for   His  Word in you    , as Jesus  pointed out   to those still under the law , I believe death still had a hold of them and was   all they knew and  the dead know nothing about  what pleases  God ..


Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
...23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

24 Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me. 25All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you....

John 3:11
Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

John 7:16
"My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me.

John 12:49
I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, carrying out His work.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.


As the Word of truth by the Spirit of truth dwell in us , it is LIFE   in us ...


here is some more beautiful LIVING truths Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
...16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you....
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
John 6:40
For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about Me.

John 16:13
However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.    Jesus Christ testimony /witness is the Spirit of prophecy ! We Hold His Word in our bosom / heart  , that none can take away from us ..

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us.

1 John 4:6
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.

I do  see the WORD OF GOD  AS  A  LIVING WORD    and this quickening  gives that same life to others whom hear what the Spirit is saying   as it works though that LOVE  OF GOD   in us  that has been given    a taste   of  Gods goodness   

Jesus Christ tasted death for every man ,  so every man can  taste God and know  them    , the tree of Life  ..
the tree of knowledge of good and evil  that  brings death  in it    kills  , we are to not taste it touch it  any longer , but go on into perfection  /completeness in Christ .....

Col 2 Alive in Christ
...20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations:

21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"? — 22 These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings....

   Only GOD HIMSELF  is   HOLY AND  NEVER ENDING ...BEING OUR LIFE IN CHRIST

[CST]

I don't agree with Eby on that..when God made man...after His image and likeness...He said man was good[only God is good]

   man's REAL nature..to love do right be peaceable kind is patterned after God......man is happy loving and being loved......man

  is miserable with hate,strife and all the other evil nature.  So what happened? the seducer 'evil one" entered and sowed tare seed in

  the field[man's dusty flesh]  and due to the flesh's weakness..and the power of the enemy[who is stronger than flesh] the corrupt

nature of the adversary come forth with it's works in man's flesh...leading into much misery for man.

    sin in the flesh is condemned because of it's evil fruit...that leads to death/corruption.

    as all men have bore the image of corruption,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.....the restoration of man is

really the healing and bringing back man to His true nature/which is like God's...it is man's birthright which has been stolen by the evil

one..as he pits God's own sons against one another and God.


   look at the renewl...no more tears pain sickness death..new earth/heavens ABSENT of the evil ones nature. God's sons/daughter's

sown in corruption due to sin entering....restored.   what breaks us is the evil one/what heals and binds our wounds and restores

  is God. He wants us to obey Him because He doesn't want something horrible to happen to us[protective]

   Father's heart....Jerusalem..how I have wanted to take you under my wings/like a hen protecting her chicks..but you would not have

  it....so then we get broken[vessel] and He puts us togather again on the other side of the Jordan.   sometimes we learn the hard

way to listen to Him.

It is so important that man know God's kind intentions toward His children.........always receiving His prodigals home with open arms.

if on this side of the Jordan we be reconciled...He may even have you suffer for doing good...for the sake of the other children He loves

like Jesus. All men must know..that He is very tender and loving in His mercies to His children at all times.He does NOT repay evil

with evil...but there is a 'wicked one" that relishes nothing better than to persecute God's children. And He promises unto us

to destroy him.   Time we all know who the 'real' enemy is...and it's not your fellow man or God.


  now satan the accusor says man is rebellious and depraved...and thinks no one see's what he does/but God does....Jesus

said 'the Prince of this world is judged that his works are wicked" and God's captive sons that have been taken captive by the devil

will exhibit outwardly  these wicked works in their flesh. but tell me....what spirit is so rebellious that it was thrown out of heaven?

and unto this earth...and 'woe to us because of it" where he awaits judgement. For he that touches you touches the apple of God's eye

  even man...His sons and offspring. Man has not KNOWN what spirit he is of..he's been mis-informed that he's 'devil's seed" but


   Jesus showed us through the parable the parabolic meaning....God planted 'GOOD SEED" an enemy hath planted the tares.

and He showed the destiny of both.  Therefore,despise the face of no man,and from now on call no MAN UNCLEAN.

   This is part of the revealing of the SONS OF GOD..that the whole creation groans for...and also the revealing of the mystery

  of iniquity/lawless one.  when they are removed..just like the man with legions..man will be in His right mind...and freed through Christ.

   for if I cast out demons by the 'Finger of God/God's judgement" then the Kingdom of Heaven has come upon you.

   a law unto themselves...natural men  without relationship with God or Christ..that by nature love/kind/peaceable bears wittness

   that man's nature is in God's image.

Obviously 'good' is a broad term with a number of meanings and has a unique and overarching meaning when it applies to God. In the case of Genesis, God was observing that the world was forming in the way He had intended. This was supposedly before the fall though.

But I agree with your main point about your observation on what Eby wrote. The thing I have with the relationship between UR and ET/ED positions are that UR tends to be inclined to agree with most of the others conclusions and reading of scripture and simply reject what they say about the duration of punishment. That's about the only thing that their logic is mistaken though. Understandable, they are the established church and their doctrines are what is commonly taught and accepted. They are incredibly hard to get rid off.

The total depravity of humanity is one of those. It seems to be supported and is taken to mean that human beings are utterly evil but I tend to take it to mean they are weak (although they could be utterly evil). Why? Because if they are utterly evil, they have no reason to care about what is good, no reason too oppose evil because everything is evil so no reason to be hurt or moved when evil happened because they have none of counter balancing goodness to see the evil for what it is. It means that God basically has to have been pouring grace on the whole species from the beginning in order for anything good to happen or be seen, in order for any of God's work to be done. Which sounds like it could well be true. Without grace, there is no Moses or Noah or Job. But without grace we also rule out a lot of the apparent good deeds of those of other religions or none. There is a grace that seems to be outside sphere of death and resurrection of Jesus. I struggle with that although I understand some do not. There's saving grace and the other grace. Very strange. I'm also not sure what the point is of saving something is essentially no good. That's what the doctrine of total depravity suggests. That the human species God made is a very poor job with no good features of its own. It's God better than that? I suppose it would then be important to God for Him to require grace to complete His work and His work all remains unfinished without it.

I fear this might be rather messy and less clear than I intended. And it could also be very wrong.

quote cst    If UR is the correct faith then that is what people should receive when God gives the grace, people who believe in ET or ED have never received God's grace and are perishing. So while everything you say is true who are we trying to convince? There is no point promoting UR if all the people who hear our message reject it because they haven't received God's grace. There is no point promoting Christianity if God hasn't given grace to the people you're preaching to. No, God can give grace to whom He chooses but they won't be able to confess that grace and what it means until somebody goes to them and tells them the truth not a bit of the truth, the truth.


I believe "the faith" and The Truth is Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins and risen again.  Paul said that is the Gospel.  UR is not The Gospel.  It's a splendid, magnificent true doctrine, a part of the Truth of Jesus Christ.  That I believe most won't understand or receive in this lifetime.  But it doesn't preclude them from having been drawn by the Holy Spirit to come and believe on Jesus by the gift of faith.


quote jabcat  I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results. 


quote cst   Fine, then we have no purpose.



IMO, that is our purpose, or part of it.  Share, speak the truth in love, proclaim Jesus as Savior of the world, and as Paul said, "be you reconciled to God".  He also said "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?".  I believe God uses us to proclaim Him (share the Good News), be salt and light (speak [and live] the truth in love), and will use us (the forerunners, elect) to shepherd in many in the next age.

Again though, even though we share, speak, live truth, not all receive in this age.  Jesus told His disciples to shake the dust and move on at some point.  Paul also talks about fruitless discussions and inciting strife and dissension.  So I believe at some point it's OK, when Spirit led and released to do so, to leave something in God's hands and let Him handle it from there. We "preach" Jesus, but may not know until the next age even how God has "added to the fellowship those who were being saved".     Walking by the Spirit, not led by the flesh.  It's a challenge and sometimes we may get it right.   :2c:

Jesus clearly declare 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.' He also declared that outside Him there is no Truth (or some other writer did commenting on this and similar passages). If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth. Jesus is the Truth and has nothing false in them. Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. And, of course, Romans has the verse: ' if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.'  Sounds easy, doesn't it? But ET/ED also believe in their heart (it seems) those who don't make this cut, go to Hell or and destroyed forever. When they confess that 'Jesus is Lord' they believe His Lordship not only permits but demands that He do this. When the words are in black and white on the page it's easy to forget the strength and weight behind them. Jesus is Lord of all, He intends for that all to acknowledge that and give Him the worship He deserves. And God did indeed raise Him from the dead as a beginning and an example that He will raise all from their prison of death is due order. This is the Gospel. God didn't raise Jesus just to show off that He could. Believing in your heart God did so doesn't mean just accepting that fact that it happened. You have to understand what it means to confess 'Jesus is Lord' what is means to 'believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead'. This is the Gospel and to me this is UR, the other two perspectives don't cut it.

As I said, as I tried to make clear, the Gospel and the Grace are both required, if you are given the Gospel but not the Grace you will disbelieve and reject it. If you are given grace but have not yet heard the Gospel you will struggle with the above process, you will struggle to know what it means to confess and believe as instructed above.

[jabcat]

 Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3).  We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8).  John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked]  to me...and at the very least, not "good"

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.

I disagree and I explained why above.  IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth.  But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5).  We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here.  Thanks. 

[darryl]

these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out  'aionios'  is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.

[marie glen]

these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out  'aionios'  is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.

I often think of it as a sort of peer pressure thing.. And people want to "belong".. Be 'in' with the group, not 'out'.. to conform(?)

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the
Gospel.

I believe we all err in many ways (tho still 'saved' and safely in His hands).. but I also think ( :dontknow: ) 144,000 (of Israel) are/will be a different case.. spiritual "virgins" not soiled with (the doctrine of?) women.. Paganism is strong on matriarchy and 'goddesses'.. Whereas the Hebrew is strong on patriarchy and, of course, the one true God, Lord of hosts/armies.. Mighty commander.. (i.e. masculine)

I only mention it because I was studying upon it this morning..
(reading it in the interlinear - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2014 )
:gsmile:

[CST]

Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3).  We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8).  John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked]  to me...and at the very least, not "good"

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.

I disagree and I explained why above.  IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth.  But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5).  We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here.  Thanks.

Now you seem to be talking like an ETer. God is the Father of all things in fact. He created everything the Devil created nothing, his goal and purpose is the attempt to destroy what God has created. We are all children of God in this sense. Jesus said the Pharisees and others of His enemies were of their father the Devil to shock them. He didn't mean it literally in any sense but it had powerful symbolism, truth and and the same time suggested something the Pharisees would be appalled by, namely that they works and deeds served the ends of the Devil much more than they served God. A major slight given that the Pharisees pinned their whole image on the pretense that everything they did was what God would have them do. As is continually pointed out they were very like our modern religious institutions painting themselves and have a special relationship with God and condemning anyone who did not meet the specific standards they proscribed even while they were unable to meet them themselves.

And yes, it's impossible for any of us to have entirely the correct doctrine, but I think that presenting bad doctrine that pushes people away from God not towards Him does not go in the favor of those doing it. Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.

these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out  'aionios'  is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.

We can't be too hard on anyone, well we can but we're not supposed to be.

these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out  'aionios'  is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.

I often think of it as a sort of peer pressure thing.. And people want to "belong".. Be 'in' with the group, not 'out'.. to conform(?)

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the
Gospel.

I believe we all err in many ways (tho still 'saved' and safely in His hands).. but I also think ( :dontknow: ) 144,000 (of Israel) are/will be a different case.. spiritual "virgins" not soiled with (the doctrine of?) women.. Paganism is strong on matriarchy and 'goddesses'.. Whereas the Hebrew is strong on patriarchy and, of course, the one true God, Lord of hosts/armies.. Mighty commander.. (i.e. masculine)

I only mention it because I was studying upon it this morning..
(reading it in the interlinear - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2014 )
:gsmile:

Well obviously, it's why I was trying to do that work on what the Bible means by Truth because I hold that as being very important. I don't think the 144 000 are actually all out of Israel it's a piece of symbolism the Revelation uses along with all it's other strange symbols that are hard to understand. It has been believed that the 144 000 were children as they would likely be virgins owing to their age. Which has on and off led me to wonder, when accepting the Israel statement, if it thus refers to the infants murdered on the orders of Herod when he was trying to kill Jesus.

Edit: I notice that site you link to has its own link in it to a site about the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate. While I am sure no conclusions can have been reached, has Tentmaker ever considered its position on this rather frightening looking doctrine?

[jabcat]

Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3).  We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8).  John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked]  to me...and at the very least, not "good"

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.

I disagree and I explained why above.  IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth.  But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5).  We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here.  Thanks.

Now you seem to be talking like an ETer.

I don't think applying such labels in this case serves any useful purpose.  Your statement that Jesus said those things for shock is of course your opinion, with which I disagree.  I think He was calling it correctly.  Also Paul says similar when not talking directly to unbelievers, so not apparently trying to "shock" anybody. 

Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.

I didn't say salvation is a doctrine.  That's why I don't typcially engage in ongoing convoluted, circular "arguments".  Because that's what they become.  If we don't agree, as long as we're both trying to understand our view from within the scriptures, that's fine, let's move on and we'll understand it better later.

[Abigail]

I've not read all the thread, just responding to OP.

I've come to see judgement more as a 'setting straight' then as a condemning thing. On a worldwide as well as on a personal level.

I've also come to see forgiveness of sin has mainly to do with setting free of sin. Traditionally, sin is seen as something God holds against us (even though He provides a way to forgive). I believe Jesus showed us that He came to save sinners, save them from their sin. Speaking of sin as a sickness, and of Himself as a Doctor. And that same Jesus is the one who is appointed to be the Judge of the World.

I quote/translate from a Dutch universalist writer:
'What would it mean if their would be no wrath of God? It would mean that God would leave the earth to what people make of it. The evil would go on and death would have the last say, and God would consent to it. The wrath of God means that He doesn't consent to this, that He doesn't consent leaving the earth and all that lives on it to evil. He maintains his purpose with His creation. Everything is about that purpose. The deliverance of Creation of everything that harms it. The wrath of God is completely at het service of this deliverance, that is: His saving justice.'

[sheila]

Amen,Abigail

[darryl]

Ephesians 2:3 states before we were saved we were "by nature objects of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3).  We are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God's enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8).  John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they "belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

sounds depraved [def., morally corrupt, wicked]  to me...and at the very least, not "good"

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the Gospel.

I disagree and I explained why above.  IMO, if we must have all doctrine correct, then no one would be "in Jesus", because none of us have or understand all truth.  But we do need The Truth, i.e., Jesus - crucified, risen again - which is the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5).  We disagree on this, I'm strong on my belief about it, so as far as I'm concerned it's fine if we just leave it here.  Thanks.

Now you seem to be talking like an ETer. God is the Father of all things in fact. He created everything the Devil created nothing, his goal and purpose is the attempt to destroy what God has created. We are all children of God in this sense. Jesus said the Pharisees and others of His enemies were of their father the Devil to shock them. He didn't mean it literally in any sense but it had powerful symbolism, truth and and the same time suggested something the Pharisees would be appalled by, namely that they works and deeds served the ends of the Devil much more than they served God. A major slight given that the Pharisees pinned their whole image on the pretense that everything they did was what God would have them do. As is continually pointed out they were very like our modern religious institutions painting themselves and have a special relationship with God and condemning anyone who did not meet the specific standards they proscribed even while they were unable to meet them themselves.

And yes, it's impossible for any of us to have entirely the correct doctrine, but I think that presenting bad doctrine that pushes people away from God not towards Him does not go in the favor of those doing it. Salvation and being saved isn't a doctrine if UR is right it's a fact.

these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out  'aionios'  is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.

We can't be too hard on anyone, well we can but we're not supposed to be.

these days I struggle with seeing 'hellists' as sharing my exact faith because many hellists emphasize the judgement of God on sinners rather than His love for them.But, I cant be too hard on them because I was a 'hellist' myself for a long time..till I saw the light.There again, as soon as a guy I know pointed out  'aionios'  is mistranslated as eternal in passages as Mt25, I immediately started questioning hellist belief..but, hellists i know personally seem very stubborn in holding onto their belief...even after i point out the evidence.

I often think of it as a sort of peer pressure thing.. And people want to "belong".. Be 'in' with the group, not 'out'.. to conform(?)

If UR is the Truth, ED and ET are not the Truth.  Those who preach falsely do not preach Jesus and are not in Jesus. ... [UR]This is the
Gospel.

I believe we all err in many ways (tho still 'saved' and safely in His hands).. but I also think ( :dontknow: ) 144,000 (of Israel) are/will be a different case.. spiritual "virgins" not soiled with (the doctrine of?) women.. Paganism is strong on matriarchy and 'goddesses'.. Whereas the Hebrew is strong on patriarchy and, of course, the one true God, Lord of hosts/armies.. Mighty commander.. (i.e. masculine)

I only mention it because I was studying upon it this morning..
(reading it in the interlinear - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2014 )
:gsmile:

Well obviously, it's why I was trying to do that work on what the Bible means by Truth because I hold that as being very important. I don't think the 144 000 are actually all out of Israel it's a piece of symbolism the Revelation uses along with all it's other strange symbols that are hard to understand. It has been believed that the 144 000 were children as they would likely be virgins owing to their age. Which has on and off led me to wonder, when accepting the Israel statement, if it thus refers to the infants murdered on the orders of Herod when he was trying to kill Jesus.

Edit: I notice that site you link to has its own link in it to a site about the Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate. While I am sure no conclusions can have been reached, has Tentmaker ever considered its position on this rather frightening looking doctrine?

I know we arent to be too hard on anyone...but, it's a bit irritating when 'hellists' continue to push the hellist belief in everlasting torment even after being confronted with all the UR evidence in Scripture...when I was confronted with this evidence i changed track pretty much immediately...I changed from being a hellist, to doubting it, within the space of a couple of weeks..it bothers me when the hellist stubbornly hold onto their evil idea of God even after seeing the evidence for UR..I cannot help being bothered, I'm only human..in a sense they are misrepresenting Jesus, whom i love dearly cause they insist Jesus will torment precious human beings forever...I can only pray for them, if they will not agree after hearing the UR evidence...no point getting upset with them.

[sheila]

their 'virgins/pure because they are born again from above..they are Jesus 'wave-breast' portion=golden girdle that encompasses

  His chest/heart/paps...a new creation...a mere woman shall encompass a man[son of man]   these are the actual  'breasts of

  Heaven" that nurture the little children in flesh and blood yet. the High Priest always recieves the 'Breast portion" dove/holy spirits

  that go forth from His upper perfect body..to minister[Holy spirit in bodily form of dove]....dove is all breast mostly.

   true Israel is all mankind...these are redeemed spirits that serve Him[children of the resurrection like the angels.}

[jabcat]

I've not read all the thread, just responding to OP.

Not a bad plan.    :winkgrin:

[darryl]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

[Patinak]

you know, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if God just unilaterally forgave everybody when we all reach the next world..the older I get the more I think along these lines..imagine God turning to all the saved Christians and asking them what should happen to the unsaved..the self righteous ones are baying for blood...asking for wrath to fall on them...THEN, God asks them 'whoever of you was without sin, cast the first stone'...and they all pull back...and God does not condemn nor visit His wrath on the 'unsaved'....after all, either Jesus IS the Savior of the entire world or He is not..I think we will all find God is far more merciful than we could ever have imagined. :dsunny:

darryl,
Thank you for the post.  You have described the God I worship.