So what gives God the right to Judge us?

[chester-blowfold]

I mean nobody asked to be born and in a lot of cases you may want a different God in your life.

[Shev]

If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

[marie glen]

Yep.. it's His world.. He's simply (imo) letting the ability to make choices (albeit thankfully limited) a side shoot of thinking ability, to run its course.. because it will prove Him right about all things. What He is designing and building I believe far surpasses any of our fondest dreams.. and it is perfect in every way, for every one.. we're simply learning good from evil, a necessary foundation (imo) lesson.

Everyone judging what is good and what is evil.. well, that's what we have now, with all its death and suffering. History is not a pretty picture.
:Peace2:

[darryl]

the apostle Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15 . 'Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst'. Please notice Paul says I AM the worst of sinners...according to the Strong's Concordance the word for AM that Paul uses here, in Greek, is the verb 'eimi' : I exist, I am (Original Word: εἰμί ) ..Paul uses this VERB ''eimi' in the PRESENT TENSE'..NOT PAST TENSE...eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood. Plainly, Paul is saying he is currently a sinner...Paul NEVER taught 'sinless perfection'.We are not greater than Paul so we too are currently 'sinners' saved through the blood of Christ, but yes, we are indeed 'saints'.In our flesh, we are sinners but in our spirit we are saints.The 'old man', the fleshly nature, is born in sin but when we are born again we receive the Spirit of God and become Saints. even though the 'old man' still dwells within us. The doctrine of sinless perfection leads to spiritual pride...knowing we are sinners keeps us on our knees before a Holy God..seeking his forgiveness and cleansing. :banana: :dsunny:

[Cristina100]

If God doesn't  Judge us where do we get our morals?

[CST]

If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

So far as I know none of those things have sentience and can answer back despite the poetic illustrations given in the Bible. In reality if God can do as He wishes to the beings and things He creates why can't we do as we wish to the beings and things we create. Why can't we create our children as appallingly as we wish. Are they not to some degree our workmanship as well as His? Of course that leaves us in a nonsense position because that argument stands for nothing on it's own. This question only really comes up because of ET anyway. We suspect that God's 'judgement' in this case is unjust so we challenge the right of such a being to judge us in our mind. Once you take it out of the equation and stop seeing God as this being who's simply writing down all our bad deeds to condemn us for them later, if we stop seeing that as the be all and end all of God and our relationship with Him being such a problem. God's 'judgments' are to help us anyway and I expect further us in directions we already want to go but can't make ourselves get there.

If God doesn't  Judge us where do we get our morals?

Quite, which is why such questions tend to touch on the modern Euthypho dilemma, the question of God commands what is right (moral) because if is right or is what God commands right because He commands it? (the original has pious for right)

Obviously the second is a major problem because just because God doesn't command us to sacrifice our children, He could if He wished and it would be right for Him to do so and right because He told us to do it. An unacceptable proposition.

The problem with the first position is that is makes moral something greater than God - another unacceptable proposition.

The solution here would seem to be to remember that God created the world for His purposes, He won't command things that are morally wrong because they would oppose His purposes and thus be irrational. You just have to accept morality is dependent entirely on God's design for this world and has no meaning outside it.

[Shev]

If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

So far as I know none of those things have sentience and can answer back despite the poetic illustrations given in the Bible. In reality if God can do as He wishes to the beings and things He creates why can't we do as we wish to the beings and things we create. Why can't we create our children as appallingly as we wish. Are they not to some degree our workmanship as well as His? Of course that leaves us in a nonsense position because that argument stands for nothing on it's own.

Sorry this did not make sense to you, CST. I was using the argument to point out God created us, and therefore we belong to him. I was certainly not saying we are songs, books, or clay pots, or that such things are literally comparable to us. They were all supposed to be metaphors, symbols of the relationship between a creator and a created thing.

Here is one that may make more sense to you:

Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2
"I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3
You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4
Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
5
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6)

[sheila]

Jesus said the 'word that He speak to us will judge you on the last day" if we keep His commandments.......


     Look! Father and Jesus by=passed condemning mankind in favour of mercy and healing of man.

          John 8;15  Ye judge after the flesh..I judge no man. the Father judges no man.......now if He did desire to judge

    His judgement would be true.  sin in the flesh was condemned under the law...He made atonement..we reckon our body good as

   dead because of it.  IT's all about man's spirit.   If a man won't recieve the goodnews..they shake the dust off their feet..for the man

  is still in the fleshly natural man condition and is not spiritually quicked...either not their time etc..but you don't call fire down on

  their heads[sons of thunder rebuke] each in his order.now these were people of Israel[covenant people/not non-covenant people]

  now judgement begins with the church and the 'teachers'..and strangers have shepherded the flock. again teaching eternal

condemnation..

  what is judged? son of perdition=satan dwelling in man's flesh imitating God in these eternal hellfire condemnation doctrines/

  sin in the flesh of man is condemned....Babylon ,Prince of this world..false prophets carnal/beast


.the church should be quickened of the spirit..observing Jesus words/commands and following

  the Holy spirit's commands. All men shall recieve the free gift of eternal life through the spirit of Christ..whether they be quickened

  in this life..to help serve..or when their spirit returns unto God.  all mortal flesh will return to the dust. Flesh and blood can not

  inherit and never will.


  grace is leaven hid in 3 measures of flour. Just as Israel was bound up in disobedience..so too christendom..and thus comes to

the 3rd measure ALL MEN GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE IN THE SPIRIT. No flesh shall boast. The Lord alone shall be exalted in that day


    No-one deserves GRACE and a FREE gift of eternal life.

   Moses and Jesus displayed if the wicked one threw down a man like a serpent[sinner] God could pick Him up again by His hand.

   the sign of the leper hand that come forth from the bosom fold of His garment..and when returned come forth again clean

also shows us this beautiful spiritual truth....the clean and unclean beasts coming down on the sheet/slayed and then gone back up

shows this also...even 3 times/three measures till all.....it is all about the spirit...the promised seed is eternal life in the spirit


   the flesh counts for nothing

[Shev]

I think we should all avoid doubting the integrity or benevolence of someone who has sent His only son to die for mankind.

[sheila]

 the earth helps the woman..our earthly vessels hold spiritual seed of the woman[the earth and the sea give up their 'dead" unless a kernal

of wheat fall to the earth and die..it remains alone. Adam's spirit is God's spiritual seed[see Adam a son of God]

...if a brother die..law[of love] says brother-in-law marriage to raise up the seed for the dead brother. Christ was not ashamed to

  call man His brothers. because the little children[spirit seed] were partakers of flesh and blood,so,too He likewise partook.

   thus the RESURRECTION is spiritual..and the spirit of man is what is truly redeemed.[flesh and blood can not inherit]......the

redeemed spirit seed is immortal. the flesh counts for nothing. as the POTTER who forms with His hands...and a pot[clay vessel/body]

is 'marred/by sin' in His hands...so,too....He has power to make of the same lump[man] a vessel of honour........

   there is a spirit jewel in the pot..something valueable...if a man drops a beautiful pearl in the mud..he does not overly despise it

but picks it up and cleans it off.

   those quickened now He desires we expierence the life in the spirit more abundantly..and get control over the vessel to conduct it

in honor..and rule over the sin/marr of our vessels..that the life in the spirit be manifested..but the flesh still counts for nothing.......

  it is really the concern of the spirit..that LOVE be expressed......through the vessel.

[chester-blowfold]

So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.

[jabcat]

Personally I understand the question, but I don't believe we should linger on it.  Instead, I believe we're to humble ourselves before His hand, and as Job said, "even if you slay me I will trust You".

Isaiah 45

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
8 "You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it.
9 "Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'The potter has no hands'?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to a mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.

[sheila]

beautiful post Jabcat!

[jabcat]

beautiful post Jabcat!

Thank you   :friendstu:

For me it's a battle of the will, part of taking up our cross and following.  (Pretty constant for this particular knucklehead. :o )

[rosered]

Amen , Isaiah  45  is a beautiful   Truth and perfect  James !!!
 

Proverbs 25  11Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances. 12Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine gold Is a wise reprover to a listening ear....

God bless ....   :HeartThrob:

[darryl]

So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.

true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.

[jabcat]

Amen , Isaiah  45  is a beautiful   Truth and perfect  James !!!
 

Proverbs 25  11Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances. 12Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine gold Is a wise reprover to a listening ear....

God bless ....   :HeartThrob:

  :handshake:  blessings

[Dandelion]

Psalm 27Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

27 By David. Jehovah [is] my light and my salvation, Whom do I fear? Jehovah [is] the strength of my life, Of whom am I afraid?
2 When evil doers come near to me to eat my flesh, My adversaries and mine enemies to me, They have stumbled and fallen.
3 Though a host doth encamp against me, My heart doth not fear, Though war riseth up against me, In this I [am] confident.
4 One [thing] I asked of Jehovah -- it I seek. My dwelling in the house of Jehovah, All the days of my life, To look on the pleasantness of Jehovah, And to inquire in His temple.
5 For He hideth me in a tabernacle in the day of evil, He hideth me in a secret place of His tent, On a rock he raiseth me up.
6 And now, lifted up is my head, Above my enemies -- my surrounders, And I sacrifice in His tent sacrifices of shouting, I sing, yea, I sing praise to Jehovah.
7 Hear, O Jehovah, my voice -- I call, And favour me, and answer me.
8 To Thee said my heart `They sought my face, Thy face, O Jehovah, I seek.'
9 Hide not Thy face from me, Turn not aside in anger Thy servant, My help Thou hast been. Leave me not, nor forsake me, O God of my salvation.
10 When my father and my mother Have forsaken me, then doth Jehovah gather me.
11 Shew me, O Jehovah, Thy way, And lead me in a path of uprightness, For the sake of my beholders.
12 Give me not to the will of my adversaries, For risen against me have false witnesses, And they breathe out violence to me.
13 I had not believed to look on the goodness of Jehovah In the land of the living!
14 Look unto Jehovah -- be strong, And He doth strengthen thy heart, Yea, look unto Jehovah!

Definitely one of my favorite Psalms. I think this covers this question.

D.

[chester-blowfold]

So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.

true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.

Yes I would tbh. I'd never willing ask to be born into this cesspit of a world where there's so much hate, violence, uncertainty, fear, pain and suffering.

[CST]

If I write a song, do I have the right to alter the lyrics?
If I write a book, can I change the plot to a happy ending?
If I make a clay pot, do I have the right to change it into a jar?
If I father a child, do I have the right to raise it?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

So far as I know none of those things have sentience and can answer back despite the poetic illustrations given in the Bible. In reality if God can do as He wishes to the beings and things He creates why can't we do as we wish to the beings and things we create. Why can't we create our children as appallingly as we wish. Are they not to some degree our workmanship as well as His? Of course that leaves us in a nonsense position because that argument stands for nothing on it's own.

Sorry this did not make sense to you, CST. I was using the argument to point out God created us, and therefore we belong to him. I was certainly not saying we are songs, books, or clay pots, or that such things are literally comparable to us. They were all supposed to be metaphors, symbols of the relationship between a creator and a created thing.

Here is one that may make more sense to you:

Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2
"I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3
You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4
Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
5
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6)

I always 'abhor myself' but that's still never made sense to me either. God just makes an argument that because Job can't explain or perform all the marvelous acts God can and has done in creating the world that makes it OK for God to do whatever the Hell He likes up to and including allowing Satan to kill dozens of His children He's made in order to make a point about another one. Sounds very impartial.

But I'm not sure you really got my point. You just seem to be repeating an argument Paul made in the epistles, which is the best thing really because they're authorized, but I can remember reading that very same argument when I accepted the premise of ET, and I'm sure I've said this before, and it just seems to have all the wait of 'If God claiming to be supremely loving decides to torture you, your loved ones and countless others who you've never met in agonizing pain and sorrow for all time because He can, you are you to argue?" Then it because a massive problem and UR doesn't have the weight it ought to. I was simply trying to argue the way out of that problem.

I think we should all avoid doubting the integrity or benevolence of someone who has sent His only son to die for mankind.

Yeah, the catch about that is that we've almost all been brought up on ET, a doctrine that invites us not just to doubt that integrity and benevolence but to reject it entirely and call it 'justice'.

Personally I understand the question, but I don't believe we should linger on it.  Instead, I believe we're to humble ourselves before His hand, and as Job said, "even if you slay me I will trust You".

Isaiah 45

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
8 "You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it.
9 "Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'The potter has no hands'?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to a mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.

That sounds a wise statement and the passage from Isaiah you are quoting one of the better responses but the fact remains that especially because most Christians advertise ET as the final outcome for most of the species the question has great weight with atheists. They will take it further and may say that, if we say with Sheila none of us deserve the free gift of grace, well then why do we deserve to be labelled wicked by a God who made us as we are and never gave us the ability to do good for ourselves unless He gives us that unmerited grace. He not only created us when we did not ask it, He created us damned when we didn't ask it and only this 'unmerited' gift of grace can save us from being damned this puts us in an immediate double debt on a loan we never asked for and spent before we knew we had it. Or at it can seem that way under certain interpretations of the theology. Hence this question. This site is to discuss and further the promotion of UR and this question is a big hurdle to such promotion.

So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.

true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.

Sadly some people feel not especially if they've been made to believe in ET. Nevertheless this is where the answer lies.

So God may well have created us but I for one did not ask to be created.

true..we had no say in the matter..but, if you had the choice..would you rather God did not create you in the first place ?..isnt life a wonderful gift ?...especially considering we will all be alive in Heaven throughout all eternity with Jesus ?.

Yes I would tbh. I'd never willing ask to be born into this cesspit of a world where there's so much hate, violence, uncertainty, fear, pain and suffering.

Yeah, the point is that it is certainly not beyond God's capacity to change your mind.

[rosered]

hat sounds a wise statement and the passage from Isaiah you are quoting one of the better responses but the fact remains that especially because most Christians advertise ET as the final outcome for most of the species the question has great weight with atheists. They will take it further and may say that, if we say with Sheila none of us deserve the free gift of grace, well then why do we deserve to be labelled wicked by a God who made us as we are and never gave us the ability to do good for ourselves unless He gives us that unmerited grace. He not only created us when we did not ask it, He created us damned when we didn't ask it and only this 'unmerited' gift of grace can save us from being damned this puts us in an immediate double debt on a loan we never asked for and spent before we knew we had it. Or at it can seem that way under certain interpretations of the theology. Hence this question. This site is to discuss and further the promotion of UR and this question is a big hurdle to such promotion.

I  think James should answer   you CST ,

But , you have  some  very thoughtful and honest  questions and answers   ,  They can make us all think  !, I believe this is an excellent thread   Chester has   started .

I   would answer you   , This    , God is glorified    doubly  in the earth and  by the carnal  mind   ,, I think of Jesus saying , you being evil , that is mindful of earthly things  , know  how to give ''good'' gifts to your children  , How much more will the heavenly Father  give    good gifts , these being of the Holy Spirit to those whom ask Him ...   Spiritual gifts to the spiritual mind [Christ' anointed  one'' ] that is .


  I do believe the grace being that  free gift  of faith is where by faith   is the spiritual increase of God   adding the rewards  that are WITH HIM ...   Eph 2 Alive with Christ
...7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace,

demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,

and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast....   That anointing of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh  is available to all    whom will come  to the knowledge of truth ....

Those are the things  that come to my own mind , when you presented your reply ...

  God bless ......

[sheila]

Because there are two kingdoms down here...mankind.the children of God...and a 'wicked' kingdom of demonic spirits.  people have

failed to discern the 'wicked/evil" one  that God deliver's mankind from. Esau I have hated..means God is addressing the wicked spirits that

possess  Esau.....He hates the works of the prince of this world..even the demonic spirits that possess and bring forth their corrupt image

  through and in man.....He loves man. Jesus come to set us free from such...and as High Priest 'washes' the sacrifices'these words I speak

to you make you clean/but not all...have I not chosen you twelve but one of you is a devil[spirit on Judas]

  with His 'word" we have to divide man from the evil contrast. and He shall appear again 'seperate' from sin[the evil contrast] and

we shall be just like Him. Just as ALL men have bore the image of the corrupt one[sin/wicked one] so.too,shall all men bear

the image of the incorrupt one.  and He shall seperate the people as a shepherd seperates sheep from goats. man is sheep

goats/scapegoat/Azazael=the evil one He saves us from..our 'sin' He takes away. This sanctifies man..the LOF consumes

  the evil one......even the 'certain sons of perdition/men" that by the Breath of His coming consumes.  It's a consumation

an end of sin and death and immortality and the incorrupt image of Christ all men shall bear.

[jabcat]

Re: "hurdle to UR"...Do we think we can convince an atheist (or anyone else) to believe?  God decides to whom He gives faith to believe in this age.  Many will fight, resist, reject, blaspheme, and make all the arguments in the world, even against clearly stated scripture.  Because they/our hearts are hard and haven't as yet been softened or regenerated by the Holy Spirit.  Many will find the cross of Christ foolishness and an offense. 1 Cor. 1:18         At the end of the age/in the next age, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.  Share, declare the truth in love.  Jesus saves those He will, and when.  The Holy Spirit must draw.  All the best arguments in the world (on one side or the other) cannot accomplish or substitue the Holy Spirit's work.   

I believe what we can do is share Who Jesus is, speak the truth in love, and God has to "sort out" the final results. 

[jabcat]

IMO, we can be presented with all truth, but unless and until the Holy Spirit reveals our need for a Savior and introduces us to Jesus Messiah - and our heart is regenerated and our will becoming broken and yielded - we will continue to kick against the goad (the tool that leads us in the right direction).

from J. Preston Eby

Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding.

Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will not have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prison house shall be opened.

The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

[Shev]

I always 'abhor myself' but that's still never made sense to me either. God just makes an argument that because Job can't explain or perform all the marvelous acts God can and has done in creating the world that makes it OK for God to do whatever the Hell He likes up to and including allowing Satan to kill dozens of His children He's made in order to make a point about another one. Sounds very impartial.

But I'm not sure you really got my point. You just seem to be repeating an argument Paul made in the epistles, which is the best thing really because they're authorized, but I can remember reading that very same argument when I accepted the premise of ET, and I'm sure I've said this before, and it just seems to have all the wait of 'If God claiming to be supremely loving decides to torture you, your loved ones and countless others who you've never met in agonizing pain and sorrow for all time because He can, you are you to argue?" Then it because a massive problem and UR doesn't have the weight it ought to. I was simply trying to argue the way out of that problem.

Hey CST - I was actually answering the literal question of the OP, which was "what gives God the right to judge us?" To me, His right to treat His creation how He wants come from creation equaling ownership. If He did not have that right, we would have somewhere or someone to appeal to, as Him contravening lawful His boundaries, but we don't. So even if ET were true (which thankfully it is not), He clearly does have the "right" to judge His creation, as we belong to Him, are in His power, and have no recourse. A "right" is something that can be enforced or resisted according to legality, and we have no way of resisting Him - no cosmic court before which we can appear to indict Him, should we feel He has overreached Himself.

The questions of His nature, and whether His treatment of His creation is fair, are separate to His actual right to do as He pleases. ET would be unfair if true, whereas UR is the very manifestation of fairness. I am a believer in UR, and believe ET to be a satanic false doctrine of the first order, so of course I am grateful that we have a God who, although He can do as He pleases, is Love, and therefore is unfolding a marvelous story that shall culminate in the salvation and joy of all mankind, with even creation itself being released from it's bondage.

Maybe we spend too much time treating God as though He were a fallible man, with whims, instabilities and infirmities that we all suffer from in the flesh. To me, someone that can encode DNA, or stretch out the universe, create the lightening bolt and thunder cloud, or design a leaf, a blade of grass, or a human body, is too wonderful for me to fully comprehend while I am yet housed in the flesh, and for Him to have clothed Himself in that same flesh to die for mankind is a love so sublime, I cannot doubt His motives or character. For if I were to think He is unloving, where would I be saying love comes from? Do I know more about love than God? Do I generate it myself, and have done so well that I can lecture Him about how to be loving?