could you describe an authentic case of demon possession for me?

[sheila]

the Holy spirit come down on Jesus in the bodily form of a dove...and remained.

the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed[in your midst] it grows to be the largest tree in the garden...the birds of the air[spirits]

both clean and unclean roost in it's branches. perhaps even a serpent may be found in the branches.

  if the unclean birds begin harassing the doves they may flutter away...when that happens we miss out on being led/taught by the Holy spirit.

  now Father does not will that evil prevail....and the doves return again and again..but if that trees branches become over-run with

serpents and unclean birds.the doves will 'light' elsewhere.


would you stay in the room with him while he masturbates..and say 'Glory be to Thee God?" if it would make you uncomfortable

what think you the Holy spirit dove would feel?

[Seth]

The Holy Spirit is like a dove inthe sense of purity not in the sense of fright or flight. He isnt a literal dove. He is sloooow to anger.

The gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT REPENTANCE.

[sheila]

yes,true..but the church is spiritually unsound and overcome  too...and many do not reach maturity or prosper in this life

  spiritually or become mature...and remain babes. they do not grow in understanding or expierence the abundance that could be theirs

     now.

[sheila]

Daniel ch 4...Nebuchaddnezers dream of the tree....beasts under the shade of the tree. This,too,may happen spiritually speaking.

[sheila]

 lesson from Jonah[dove] ch 4;2 for I knowest Thou art a gracious God,and merciful,slow to anger,and of great kindness,and

repentenst Thee of evil.

[Seth]

yes,true..but the church is spiritually unsound and overcome  too...and many do not reach maturity or prosper in this life

  spiritually or become mature...and remain babes. they do not grow in understanding or expierence the abundance that could be theirs

     now.

Yes, but that is a matter of walking according to the Spirit, not having the Spirit.

[sheila]

again a parable of a tree that didn't bear fruit..and the order to cut it down[pruning of dry branches of the vine] the tree may get 'dunged"

  and dug about it's roots to bring about growth and fruitfulness.

[Seth]

That has to do with natural brute beasts (2 Peter 2). Not struggling with certain sins, even the ones you personally find to be egregious. You can't just dictate that people who masturbate are getting cut off of the tree. That's not in the Bible. You have to go completely off the rails in 2 Peter 2 fashion to have that happen.

[sheila]

doves dung is the best to foment growth/fruitfulness of trees........The Holy spirit show the requirements of God.His gifts and

calling may be without repentance..but that doesn't mean we are not called to repentance at times.

   and those are Jesus words not mine/His parables.His teachings...

[Seth]

Like I said, one may have the Spirit and still be judged and called to repentance. Titus 2 says that Grace chastens us to live moral lives. Chastening means we may have done something to need chastening for, but that doesn't mean we have necessarily withered on the branch. Some people think that a woman wearing her skirt above her knees is a sexual sin. Or a neckline too low. Or too much flirtation. What if they say that means the woman has lost the Spirit? Who is the arbitor of what specific sins an otherwise well meaning Christian will get cut off for? Them? You?

[Seth]

Suppose a man or a woman has had a spouse pass away, and to feel close to them again, they masturbate while thinking of them? They're going to lose the Spirit for that? You might think that is a sin, but I don't. I don't think the mechanical act is the sin, but what occurs in the mind may be sinful.

[sheila]

which is it Seth? I tell you the atonement Jesus makes by placing all the people's sin on Azazael's the scape goats head..and you say

  I am making excuses for the sin of masturbation.I tell him to repent and follow the Holy spirit's commandment to flee from sexual

immorality and I'm judging. it appears to me you justify neither the Holy spirit or man..but masturbation.

[Seth]

Sorry, Shiela, you can't prove that the mechanical act vs the thought is the true sin. If you can't do that, you have no scriptural basis for your warnings. Also, you can't prov scripturally that even if the mechanical act was a sin, than it would result in anyone losing the Holy Spirit. It's just your opinion.

[sheila]

but Jesus can..He IS the authority..if a man keeps looking at a woman to lust after her........

   Luke 7;31-35  Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation................

[Seth]

Then it would be best to leave it in his hands. I doubt God will judge a Christian harshly for the desires he or she had to the memory of a dead spouse. But, that's just my opinion. You have your opinions. I have mine.

[sheila]

right..and I really feel it would profit nothing to discuss it further.. :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

Hi anti-nietzsche.

I will look into Jonathan Edwards.

As for religious experiences, I don't see where it says that they are not important. He says the Bible is the one source of truth, but, he is a Christian and that is what almost all Christian say. I don't think he is trying to negate the Holy Spirit, nor going to church, or other places where we can worship and praise God.

Catholics and Orthodox believers accept traditions and the Bible as their source of truth, but 'Christians' or those who believe those theological basics founded on the Reformation by Martin Luther, look to the Bible alone, for truth. Or, at least, that is usually the 'official' stand of those believers.

I hope this is not confusing. I believe that the Bible is the only written source of truth, but I go to many, many places of worship,  both churches and other Christian outreach; coffeehouses; Bible studies; Healing services, and so on.

I was a Catholic for 47 years, so I understand that perspective, as well.

Please feel free to ask me any other questions about the article. Hopefully, I will be able to answer them. 

D.

Okay, I see why the mention of Jonathan Edwards makes you uneasy, anti-nietzche. Sorry. I will look for another article for you.       :dunno2:

D.

[Dandelion]

On a different note......

Continuing my research, I find that it seems the vast majority of Christians seem to agree that there is no indication in the Bible of true believers being possessed by demons.

D.

[anti_nietzsche]

Seth, I think sometimes Jesus was rather ironic about the law of Moses. He taught the law of God (the smallest commandments, like "do not steal" or "do not kill"), and not the mosaic law, except for the love commandments. IMHO he treated the mosaic law like he would treat every country's law, to be obeyed for now, but as being for man, not man for the law. He said we should cut off our hands if they'd lead us into temptation, or gauge out our eyes. Again, Jesus is being ironic and he is exaggerating the issue to make people understand they need God and salvation and freedom more than rigid religious laws that cause hell. He acted like Paul, checking everything with the spirit and taking what is good while leaving what was not good away.

Same with his words about looking after a woman being adultery already. Jesus was making a point to the jews that they were so uptight about adulterous people when in fact they'd do the same thing when they would look after some with lust. But this is entirely unavoidable. I mean, if I see a pretty girl I don't let my tongue hang out and I'm not running home to masturbate. That's just silly. But I feel attraction and could admire someone's beauty or sexiness. That's the normal play of the sexes. We shouldn't be so obsessed with sexual imperfections. I think Jesus himself lusted after Mary Magdalene and maybe they slept with each other. Fornication for me is more about rape and carelessness. Abraham had concubines. David too. Solomo had a 1000 wives.

If I could get back my first girlfriend, I'd run for it. I still love her much. But I do not fall in love with someone else. So to relieve pressure I masturbate sometimes. I do not know how I could avoid that, I am still young enough to feel the pressure. And it's only human and a normal thing. The spirit is not against it.

[Seth]

Well, I completely disagree about Jesus and Mary M. My only point about masturbation is that I believe that the sin begins in the mind. I do believe people who do it can be sinning depending on what is in the mind. That is where I believe Jesus was illuminating. I think the Jews were more focused on the outside action, but Jesus was teaching them about the thought life.

[jabcat]

Well, I completely disagree about Jesus and Mary M.

Absolutely, I don't believe there's any chance, unless they were married and I don't believe they were.  Jesus was sinless.  Fornication is sin.

*Fornication Hebrew: zanah / Greek: porneia Voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other is a common type of fornication. Adultery is a type of fornication. The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. ...In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage [between a man and a woman].

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/fornication.html

(If we confess, Jesus forgives and gives mercy, strength to overcome, and grace.)

[anti_nietzsche]

But Jesus said implicitly that the law was for man, and subject to revision according to whether they were good or bad laws. I'm of the view that sex must be about love, faithfulness and romance, but I am not so sure about a pressing need for marriage. I mean you get to know someone. You like each other, and love and romance develop. But what if you marry and then find out it doesn't work in bed. Then you must get divorce and that's adultery according to many people. That's why it can be better to sleep with each other already when you're not married yet. You have to find out if things work out in bed. Or suppose you are gay. The law forbids it but that's the law of Moses, not God's law (that's the 10 commandments). And Christ's law is the 2 love commandments. Gays practicing their sexuality hurt nobody with that so why would you call it a sin? Are we not made for freedom and for the pursuit of happiness? If you meet someone who is sexy, already the recognition of that is a form of lust. That's what Jesus is calling a problem with the Law of Moses people. They call things sin that are not hurting anybody, and what they call just that is hurting everyone. Jesus gave us a spiritual way, and we are not supposed to follow the bible law of sin and death. God is not so interested in our sins only, he wants friendship and love between us and him and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It's less of a religion with purity laws and all, it's more existential than that. We need spirit to live by, not religious laws that raise sin to live and makes us die. The 10 commandments do not cause that. The love commandments do not cause that. They are examples of how God wants us to be protected from harming each other. Many of the other laws and sayings in the bible don't serve that purpose and instead of promoting love they just promote religious zeal like Paul observes it in the Jews of his time. But love is not zealous. It doesn't seek religious gratification and it doesn't lord things over others. The son has made us free, for freedom, happiness and love!

[jabcat]

We can't make the scriptures say what we want them to say or what feels better to us.  If we do, we twist them to our own spiritual (and sometimes physical) harm.  This line in your post sticks out;  "Many of the other laws and sayings in the bible don't serve that purpose and instead of promoting love they just promote religious zeal".  The scriptures need to be observed, and they talk about love AND truth.  True, they need to be accurately translated, and revealed to us in our mind and spirit by HIS Spirit.  But 2 Peter 3:16 describes how we can twist the scriptures, and when we do, it's to our own demise/destruction.  I see this to mean we don't grow spiritually, and will even face bigger consequences (discipline, correction), including the fruit of our thoughts and behavior.  Paul talked about certain sins, including sex between same-sex people as ending in them "receiving the due penalty of their error".  There are consequences to us not following what's revealed in the scriptures, either ignorantly or belligerantly (I've done both, and paid - and in some cases, still paying the price).  Again, Jesus forgives and heals, but sometimes we still reap what we've sown.  That's why the requirements are there - to protect us, and also to reward us for surrender and obedience.  I'm still learning, I still fail, so I'm not saying I've got this.  I'm just saying this is how I believe we're to seek to follow.  Only and always with His help.  And when we stumble, then there's His mercy.  He is long-suffering.  But some things are put in place and carry "natural" consequences.  Others, without repentance, will bring discipline and correction.

So IMO, to say some of things you're suggesting, such as trying out sex before marriage, just can't be proved with honest and accurate scriptural evidences. 

This is said not to condemn or judge.  Trying to speak the truth (as I understand it) in love. 

[anti_nietzsche]

Maybe I can help you.

In Pauline understanding, sometimes they made a division between the law of Moses and the prophets, and sometimes they called the entire bible the law. I think it is in this understanding that Paul wrote in Galatians that in Christ this handwriting (the law ie the bible), has been nailed to the cross and hereby invalidated. In that bible there had been active the law of sin and death, ie the people (not God himself) were inventing laws that described a sin and a penalty for sin. This theme is present throughout the entire bible. But Paul argues, where there is no law, there sin is dead. Man has not been made for a righteousness by the law because you would have to keep all laws. IE, become married, have children, be circumcized, eat no pork and shellfish, wear no clothing made of mixed fibres, keep the passa, etc. Basically you would have to become a Jew. But now came Jesus and spoke about problems between the God of love and the laws of the Jews. He confirmed the 10 commandments but added that nobody of the Jews had seen God. He confirmed the need to obey the law of the land and preached that too when confirming that the pharisees sat in Moses' seat. But there are other people in the world who have other laws. And I believe in order to free believers in God from bad laws, Jesus is nailing them to the cross and stepping in the gap between mankind and God. It is love that God wants to give us, not religious laws by which we would die.

Why would you think God would pronounce death penalties to gays? I see absolutely no sense in that. First off gays do no harm to someone if they sleep with each other. God says do not kill in the 10 commandments. Jesus confirmed that God said, love your neighbor like yourself. That is how the truly greater laws invalidate the lesser laws. Accordingly, Jesus absolved the adulteress and said only the sinless can execute punishments like stoning, showing the Jews that nobody except God can be sinless, and he's absolving people and not condemning them.

We should therefor follow Jesus closer and take serious the reality that in Christ we can be like Christ himself and bring grace and mercy to people. Why would you dig up laws that make sin come alive and make sin exceedingly sinful? That was a tenet of Christ's truth that I think not even the apostles (most of them being simple men of the land) did not quite understand first. They were too used to their lives being strictly regulated by all kinds of rules and statutes. They were not fully knowledgeable about the Spirit yet who is the true God. But little by little, in history, the laws were changed until we arrive at the laws we have today that are supposed to guarantee our freedom. We are not slaves of God anymore but instead his friends and children!

[jabcat]

Let's please go back to here so we can determine the usefulness of continuing in this vein, and how to proceed.  Please address the essence of the questions asked; 

do you believe all of scripture is the written Words of God, i.e., inspired and trustworthy (accurately translated, Spirit-revealed) or only parts or none of it?  Is it acceptable to God that parts be dismissed if they don't "seem" right or make sense to us?

specifically do you believe Paul's letters are inspired scripture to be rightly divided and taken as gospel in this age?



IMO, if we don't hold the scriptures as trustworthy, then we can believe anything we want, argue any position, and never get anywhere as far as true scriptural understanding and resolution.  If you don't truly believe the inspiration and authority of scripture as questioned above, then we'll shake hands and not pursue further "reasoning together" on these specific matters.  Because if we turn to our own reason and imagination as our "truth", I believe that can just become useless struggle.  Thanks Daniel.