So the Biblical proof there is no hell?

[eaglesway]

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

[darryl]

 :thumbsup: :dsunny:  :iagree:it's all about Love. Love of God, of others..and ourselves.

[CST]

According to the Bible, missing the mark.  Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed).  Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").

According to the Bible?

one example;  all have "hamartánō"  (a term in the Greek that comes from an archery term meaning to miss the bulls-eye/target)...missing God's will, requirement...

seems to be a pretty good general meaning, although specifics may vary according to useage and circumstance, etc...that's why i believe some things are clear and obvious (spelled out), while others seem to have more to do with conscience and each person's individual walk... :2c:

You mean the the Greek word 'hamartano' is what modern translators tend to represent with the word 'sin'? Is that what you mean? Because they may not necessarily mean the same thing just because translators have got used to using the word 'sin' for bad things people do. That would probably mean more if this was because that word 'hamartano' is also the word that the Septuagint translators used to translate the OT word we also translate as 'sin' which it may be. But that could also mean that the appearance of the word 'sin' in the text of the Bible is actually as ill-placed as the word 'Hell'.

[darryl]

seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today,   He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main  Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.

[Lazarus Short]

seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today,   He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main  Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.

In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV

The Damnationists must have missed that verse.

[CST]

Not literally, of course, God knows all and is omniscient, all thoughts all humans might have enter His mind at some point. It's an idiom, I wonder if it's actually an idiom in Hebrew or an idiom all our translators put there because of how well it translates the spirit of what that verse says.

Again, that expression. '"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD."' (Ezekiel 18:30 RSV)

Not quite sure how that fits in the incredibly mercy heavy passage it's found in, it's a worrying statement that has the unnerving connotation. I you think it's OK to do such things then it's OK for me to see to it you receive the same such things in punishment. It's hard to believe it could actually mean that especially in context. But it sounds very like it does.

[rosered]

 

seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today,   He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main  Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.

In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV

The Damnationists must have missed that verse.

  For me it is as easy as saying   , IF YOU LOVED GOD FIRST and foremost , you would let GODS DESIRE  RULE  over your heart completely  and never judge anything  , but rest easy, " HE HAS THIS" ... knowing His  judgment is  perfect    in every way and for everyone .   Letting go and letting God do His  perfect work .

  and If you loved everyone like you do yourself  ,   you would never  want nothing but Gods mercy  on them,  same as you want Him to show mercy on you  , even if you mess up and need to be corrected ,  when you get out of line  sometimes .. 
But instead we see  the power  abused and    the WORD OF GOD   marred and  made unrecognizable   to anyone  , looking for Jesus Christ ...

  The true worshippers  ,  worship in  the SPIRIT AND TRUTH and it is a LIVING THING    we are  following ..

JESUS  showed tWo perfect examples     ,  when standing before his accusers    and asking  "What is truth ?"     He went totally silent    , no fuel , no fire ..

  But when a heart seeking the  Father come  asking " What is truth ?" How do we follow  Truth ,     HE SAID I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND LIFE    John 14

5"Lord," said Thomas, "we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?"

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now, you do know Him and have seen Him."...


and many more  proofs  ,  We can  believe in and seek after  ,leaving death behind us ,   As ,"Get behind me ,satan!" . .. 

[CST]

Rose, I agree that if you loved everyone as yourself you would want them to receive God's mercy. You would certainly eschew the idea of them suffering in some sort of Hell for all eternity as easily as you eschew it for yourself. Of course you eschew it for yourself as easily for a moment as eternity and that it's always helpful. Everyone also tend to want there own way while loving themselves and that may not always be the best idea at the time... or ever depending on the circumstances. It would be nice if everyone could have everything they want which tread on the toes of all the things everyone else wants. In principle love can hope for that, it's the practicalities that stop it being possible.

But but clarity the question 'What is truth?' was asked by Pilate to Jesus in attempting to find as many reasons as he could to pardon Jesus, so we're led to believe but the Jews, who he was rather too scared of as I understand, wouldn't let him. Was Jesus silent? We don't know for sure, all we know is that whatever happened immediately after that question was asked John seems not to record, or else we are meant to understand that Pilate was asking the question rhetorically and was not actually expecting Jesus to answer it.

But when it comes to saying 'If you loved God first and foremost, you would let God's desire rule over your heart completely', really? So what of our desires then? What is the point of God creating emotional, desiring beings if He's not actually interested in any of them because they're all and always wicked? That seems more than a little pointless.

You have to really think about what God's desires actually are before making sweeping statements like that, and how much our own desires may actually have a part in them because He's our Father in some sort of real sense and we are His children in some sort of real sense and we are actually free beings in some real sense and these aren't just empty words in the Bible. God no doubt has many desires our welfare and salvation being very much the top, us not injuring each other being another. Us being mindless slaves with no desires of our own except the desire to reject them for God? Doesn't sound likely if He'd wanted those sorts of beings He could have made them instead.

Remember ET and ED advocates believe that God has desires too, they believe that that desire demands that He permanently exclude from His presence whosoever can't conform themselves to fulfilling those desires in order that He can a least fulfill them on the smaller scale.

God's desires are certainly something we should strive to fulfill because so many of them are desires for our good. But we have to be careful we don't make sweeping conclusions about how far God's desire for us extends lest we start profaning His good creation.

[darryl]

seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today,   He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main  Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.

In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV

The Damnationists must have missed that verse.

yup !..they indeed do ignore that passage !...they also ignore-
Jeremiah 7:31,32 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, ...
2 Kings 17:17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sought omens and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger.

these passages should settle it once and for all...God does not like the concept, the idea of, burning human beings alive in fire.So, obviously, that is not something that God will do. However. will all this overwhelming evidence convince most 'hellators' ?...not in my experience. They seem to want to hold onto the belief that God torments people forever.

[Seth]

And also, it's notewothy that all references to the valley are translated as hell in the NT, but never as hell in the OT.

[marie glen]

seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today,   He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main  Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.

In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV

The Damnationists must have missed that verse.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Not literally, of course, God knows all and is omniscient, all thoughts all humans might have enter His mind at some point. It's an idiom, I wonder if it's actually an idiom in Hebrew or an idiom all our translators put there because of how well it translates the spirit of what that verse says.

Again, that expression. '"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD."' (Ezekiel 18:30 RSV)

Not quite sure how that fits...

In all the warnings of the prophets to Israel, fiery judgment always occurred upon earth, during this life..

"once more will I shake the earth.." Haggai 2:6 & Hebews 12:26

"the elements will melt with a burning heat" - from 2 Peter 3 (man's split atom? - from Obadiah 15 - "For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee, Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head."

"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, and in flaming fire.." - from 2 Thess 1:7,8

[marie glen]

yup !..they indeed do ignore that passage !...they also ignore-
Jeremiah 7:31,32 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, ...
2 Kings 17:17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sought omens and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger.

these passages should settle it once and for all...God does not like the concept, the idea of, burning human beings alive in fire.So, obviously, that is not something that God will do. However. will all this overwhelming evidence convince most 'hellators' ?...not in my experience. They seem to want to hold onto the belief that God torments people forever.

..."these passages should settle it once and for all" -  :iagree: also with "God is love" also affirming! :smile:

And also, it's notewothy that all references to the valley are translated as hell in the NT, but never as hell in the OT.

A-men!!

[CST]

Not literally, of course, God knows all and is omniscient, all thoughts all humans might have enter His mind at some point. It's an idiom, I wonder if it's actually an idiom in Hebrew or an idiom all our translators put there because of how well it translates the spirit of what that verse says.

Again, that expression. '"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD."' (Ezekiel 18:30 RSV)

Not quite sure how that fits...

In all the warnings of the prophets to Israel, fiery judgment always occurred upon earth, during this life..

"once more will I shake the earth.." Haggai 2:6 & Hebews 12:26

"the elements will melt with a burning heat" - from 2 Peter 3 (man's split atom? - from Obadiah 15 - "For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee, Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head."

"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, and in flaming fire.." - from 2 Thess 1:7,8

Yeah, I should remind you that God doesn't change. And since He doesn't change I'm not sure we should expect His judgements and methods of judgement to change much in this world or the next.

'The measure you give is the measure you shall receive'

[eaglesway]

Consider.

The elements(stoicheion) in 2 Peter 3 are not necessarily speaking of wood and dirt and rocks and men. "Stoicheion" is the same word in Hebrew 5 "the elementary principles of the oracles of God" and in Col 2

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces(stoicheion) of this world rather than on Christ.

Just like the flood did not destroy the earth but rather brought an end to the kingdoms of the world in that time, the coming of Jesus in flaming fire with His holy angels(2 Thess somewhere) will burn away the veils, the principalities and powers, the systems of this world. The stoicheion (elements/elementary principles) will be consumed by intense heat.

We look for a "new heavens and a new earth"(2 Pet 3) refers to the "period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from aionian times" (Acts 3)

"Upon this mountain I will remove the covering that veils all the people(nations, goyim)"(Isaiah 25)- Think about it!

"You have come to Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, unto myriads of angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven...." Heb 12

This speaks of the "revelation of the children of God"(Rom 8) who will set the whole creation free from "futility"- the elementary principles of this world/age- the stoicheion. The intense heat that will consume it is the fire of His presence, the fire in His eyes, the fire in the midst of "ten thousands of ten-thousands of His godly ones" - the aforementioned heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God coming down out of the heavenly realms to manifest among men as Mt Zion. He makes His angels spirits , His ministers flames of fire.

"Come let us go to the mountain of the Lord, to learn His ways and behold His beauty"(Micah and Isaiah somewhere)

The creation will be set free into the "glorious liberty of the children of God during the "period of the restoration of all things"- the whole world will flow towards the heavenly Jerusalem and the rivers will flow out of her.

The Lord Jesus -"Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since the world began"(since aionian times) will return in the midst of the clouds(clouds of witnesses) and the "veil of the heavens" (veil between the glory of God and the mundanity of earth) will be rolled back like a scroll and the ark of the covenant(Christ crucified) will appear in the heavens- the sign of the son of man. Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

Rejoice for thy Light has come and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you :o)

[rosered]

 
I do believe this is how we differ  in our faith ..
  I believe God is restoring   now   because His kingdom is not of this world       
  waiting for this whole world to change  at once  is  possible with God

  But   everyone will be changed in a twinkling of an eye  ,    and  please consider   that  if our  earthly bodies were the   judgement   and what was  considered ''vanity ''   what was done in the body of death , did any life come forth and grow in truth and grace   bearing fruit to God ?   
  GOD SAYS  SOME WILL  AS HE APPOINTED IT TO HAPPEN from the foundation of this world. 

   the fruitness pursuit of trying to make it perfect  and was never  considered of God to be  anything but '' short lived ''  only to come to nothing ..destroyed

  It was always the mind / heart of  all mankind that was  to be changed   from the serpent being worldly wisdom  ,,  for me I believe they are  different  after the corruption   they were set into all  there  time in the world  has come to an end     

Because all the GLORY WAS GODS   to begin with and   those whom share in this glory are being honored    as such   with Christ ,
  but those whom will be ashamed    for not being a partaker with Him  , have nothing   as all was vanity    and a worthless attempt of self glory   

Thinking of Daniel 12   as the end of  and  Revelations explaining it   , because every generation  gets      a seed  planted   , being the testimony of Jesus Christ being the Spirit of prophecy  by God , but not all ''take root ''    in the earth  , only  the meek inherit it ..  that good ground being the Lords body to  be blessed .

  We sure can see the LIGHT intensifying      the great division of what is evil      is becoming even  more violent    and vile as it becomes exposed by knowledge  increasing     and what is  good and Holy and pure       
when the knowledge ends    and it will ,  all will KNOW GOD  from the least to  the greatest      ,    and bearing the image of what they   become , I  have considered it  as LOVE/GOD  will still be the only thing  that made  the difference     

and how can evil prove Gods   WORD   as much as the good and perfect   ?, by making HIS WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH    ALWAYS EXCELLENT    and worthy  for any one at  any time and any age to be  feared and reverend and  taken to heart fully .

  There is a test    an hour of  trial that comes upon the whole world and it is that mark of the beast / that serpent and earthly  wisdom,  Jesus overcome  THE EVIL ONE , in the wilderness, by the WORD OF GOD     and  it applies to all  generations in their hour , JESUS gave us the  witness and authority to  overcome  by HIS TESTIMONY    that is found in those whom also will overcome the world by Him being in you as greater than in the world

one hour  beast  Rev17 The Mystery Explained
...11The beast that was, and now is not, is himself an eighth king. He belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13 These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast....
Being    a lousy writer  and  having   poor speech     , but  it is    all I can do   to keep  on trying  , because I do love God and KNOW he loves us  , sending Jesus Christ to prove it , so we can have now His peace and joy    as the world is failing     and  Babylon is falling  and not be in fear  of the last enemy being death  itself   and than  meeting our Maker     to sort it all out for us , If I will be ashamed it was because I believed a lie   and if not ashamed   because I believed the Living God   ...

I do believe it will be   the most truest awakening   for all of us ,  yet to experience.

[eaglesway]

I believe that only we who hav discipled to Jesus Christ will b changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. Those are the first fruits. All the rest hav yet to be reconciled. They will b....but as yet r not "in Christ". Oddly enough... that is what the scriptures say.

Opinions dont matter. Jesus spoke of aionion oyr and aionion kolassis. His words work fine for me.

IMO all the rest of this "there is no judgement/judgement to come is just wishy washy new age drivel.

[rosered]

  I can appreciate the challenges of  scripture   John ,   I don't think  I am saying there is no judgment  , most certainly is  upon all the kings of the  earth !

I believe that only we who hav discipled to Jesus Christ will b changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. Those are the first fruits. All the rest hav yet to be reconciled. They will b....but as yet r not "in Christ". Oddly enough... that is what the scriptures say.

Opinions dont matter. Jesus spoke of aionion oyr and aionion kolassis. His words work fine for me.

IMO all the rest of this "there is no judgement/judgement to come is just wishy washy new age drivel.

and oddly enough that is exactly what they said when JESUS COME  the first time ,   to show them the way , they   the stubborn and stiff necked would not bow down   and accept Jesus word  in themselves , same  Babylon  kings of the earth that  were cut off   and  house left desolate and will not  see the Lord   again  till they  say ,  Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord .  Is this not what we are supposed to do now ? shout it from the rooftops ?

  But those seeked to KILL JESUS CHRIST!   and still do to this DAY .. 

I believe they are judged the moment they arrive , because the 1000 year reign is    the DAY of the Lord  being  of Adam 930 years  that all die in being  the   first death  to overcome, that old man of sin     & Babylon  70 years of captivity   is the second death  that will not experience  the harm  [few in number ]   and those  to be set free from  and the rest will be corrected   sternly .   

I know many think they will lie in   wait    in their graves      that old fashioned teaching of men      for 1000 years  , but those failed the test

Rev 20 Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire
6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection![IN ADAM ALL DIE ] in the Day    you eat of the tree of knowledge   of good and evil  , you shall surly die   , it that not the deadly wound that was healed   in that beast  ,    is this not the  corruptible image of  mankind  all wonder after calling it   god  that man of sin  ?  Revelation 13:14
Because of the signs it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived.
  the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT IS THE WORD OF TRUTH

2 Thess 2The Man of Lawlessness
...2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come.    Just like  JESUS IS ALWAYS  being  the resurrection and Life  is always[ Children of the DAY ]  ,so is the day of the Lord   being that He comes like a thief in the night

HIS WORD IS CONSTANT AND ETERNAL

3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God....

mankind's  heart is desperately wicked above all else and who can  know it ?   is this not the very spiritual pride    of Babylons ways   exalting itself   ! being the  KING OF PRIDE     and over all the children of pride ,      Revelation is    the DAY OF THE LORD explained    and poured out on Babylon  , haughty men thinking they are  supreme beings   and super righteous   , not even knowing how poor and  blinded by satan's power being miserable and wretched that  they truly are   



But those whom are kept by the Lords power     are not harmed  by the sting of death    there is no more flesh to  destroy , they are  walking and talking  spiritual beings  born of GOD  and  doing those same  greater works because JESUS    WENT TO THE FATHER and sits  at His right hand of power .

young men you are strong and the WORD OF GOD  abides/lives  in you  and  You have overcome the evil ONE !   , they are battle warriors   with Christ army now  , fathers you have known from the beginning .  1 John 2 ...
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.[as a DAY  UNTO THE LORD ]

7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,

8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle.

Their number is like the sand of the seashore.... 9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.    

Touch not my anointed !! his judgements are in the earth ... Psalm 105


2 PETER 3 The Day of the Lord
...7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,

kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness,

but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance....


1Since everything will be dissolved in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness


12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be dissolved by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with God's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Final Exhortations
14Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace with Him, without spot or blemish.

15Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.


Those ungodly men are the Babylon kings of the earth and will be harmed by the second death , the day of the Lord is to destroy Babylons POWER IN ONE HOUR  ...

  10In fear of her torment, they will stand at a distance and cry out: "Woe, woe to the great city, the mighty city of Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."
I am   for one glad  for Babylon  to be destroyed and    evil to be no more  and satan's power totally diminished ....

  I do fear the Lord  and has  been painful to deal with  and yet  there is peace and joy in the Lord in the times of refreshing

  but the day is here I am afraid  where brother will be against brother  Matt 10   and if we live by the sword we shall also die by it

I DO BELIEVE  THE JUDGMENT IS HERE  IN THE EARTH and escalating  rapidly  His fiery Law    Isaiah 24   , 25  we all   are humbled  greatly .

    Just   hoping  this  clarifies  some as to why I believe   the way I do    without offending anyone  .

[eaglesway]

I am not sure what you are saying about judgement. I was not just responding to you, but to the general tone of what is going on around the forum :o)

However, you did say everyone will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.

This is not what the scripture says to me. When I read it, it is for believers/disciples of Christ alone, at the last trumpet, at the second coming of the Lord- and speaks only of the first resurrection.

The idea that anyone who warns against the wrath to come is a Pharisee is categorizing Jesus, the prophets and all the apostles as Pharisees as well, because they all warn of the chastisements of God upon His children in house(it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem; Now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; if anyman abide not in me he will wither up, be cutoff and be cast into the fire)
and upon the world at large.

[chester-blowfold]

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

Where is this from?

[darryl]

I think some of us have been entrapped within man made religion which emphasizes 'wrath' and 'judgment'  for years..when we come into the wonderful light and bathe in the love of UR we may sound a little 'new agey' in that we think of and emphasize love..whereas before we emphasized 'judgement' ..all I know is 'love' is the hardest thing to practice..it's easy and 'natural' to judge others..it's way harder to love.

[sheila]

"it's easy and natural to judge exactly! the tokogae in the natural man......that man thought would make him like God........

     Jesus tasted death for all men.when He come in flesh....and give man a taste' of life/token..of the new spirit man to come.TOL

[rosered]

I am not sure what you are saying about judgement. I was not just responding to you, but to the general tone of what is going on around the forum :o)

However, you did say everyone will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.

This is not what the scripture says to me. When I read it, it is for believers/disciples of Christ alone, at the last trumpet, at the second coming of the Lord- and speaks only of the first resurrection.

The idea that anyone who warns against the wrath to come is a Pharisee is categorizing Jesus, the prophets and all the apostles as Pharisees as well, because they all warn of the chastisements of God upon His children in house(it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem; Now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; if anyman abide not in me he will wither up, be cutoff and be cast into the fire)
and upon the world at large.

Again   you have misunderstood    what I     was meaning ,

   Not all pharisees     John , ONLY   the ones who     resisted   ''change ''  Jesus  had  come  as a human being  born under the law   of wrath by a woman [true church/body of Christ that has always been by Gods anointing from the beginning  for His own purpose  saved though child bearing/living spiritual offspring  ] 

,but was conceived  by  the Holy Spirit  of a virgin /pure  vessel   , untouched   by  error /sin    where there is no law their is no transgression ,   but by   the faithful promise  of   God   though Abraham's  seed  as heirs as the sons of God  .. [  Romans 4]

And because he was human   as they were  ,  a mere man  and saw him only as   a troublemaker ,   speaking unlawful things to them     .

  They loved their position    and power they had over the people    and used that knowledge of God against them ,  never seeing themselves  as    ''in sin /error''   or missing the mark   ,

they stopped their ears from hearing the Lord   and become offended   desiring to  quench the Spirit   in Christ   and found themselves desolate  by the law of sin and death they chose over  the law of Life and Liberty being the sons of God ,  they had  no place for   His Word in them , leaving them empty  and a burning    branch  , they were satisfied with their own understanding and traditions of men  .

They choose   Moses as their judge  , and under that law  , they die under the law   by two or  3 witnesses ,  can they rise again ?   it depends on how we see   what is spirit is Spirit  and what is flesh is flesh ,  their own flesh  did not see   GOD  as some do  get too   , some saw  God while being human beings , Saul to Paul is the prime example of that .  a new name and  new nature born of   the promise as a son of God ,   Job is another example   He said in my flesh I will see God[Job  19] and he did    , it was a spiritual encounter  in the days of his flesh .


That is all I meant  , but should have explained it  as such ...      We are all born under the  same law of sin and death  in Adam , none are exempt    from that .but though    the veil  that is the Lord Jesus Christ and His flesh   ,  would all the promises come  and be fulfilled   though both the law of sin and  death  sons of mankind  and the Law of Life and Liberty  as sons of God   bearing both images    would all things be fulfilled   , being both the Lord of the dead and Living  .

  Its all about Jesus Christ    and what He is doing  now as He done than and will always do the perfect  work  in all of   His creation ,  what was done in secret    and hidden   for the ages  has now been  openly   displayed  and given to His children  as the Light is shining in the brightness of the noon day  and  can see God in our  flesh   , when given eyes to see  and ears to hear and heart to understand  .

  The pure in heart shall  see GOD in all  His glory    and majesty       Matt 5   , It sure is TRUE , the process is judgment    and has always been divided from the beginning[ Gen 1]  , what is flesh is flesh and what is Spirit is spirit   and the confusion has always been  by the mixing of the two .

  This is the hardest part to  press though  , a lot of tearing down and loss  and ever so painful   for both the woman / Church  , kept from satan presence , and fed  in the wilderness and barren land  and the child,  to  be birthing  the sons of God , they are prey  in the world of iniquity .Rev 12

The first fruits  of the HOLY SPIRIT   are  those   whom held the   Holy witness in themselves   long ago   and were mistreated and hated and tortured   are those whom by faith Hebrews 11   , died without the promises  being fulfilled in them   fully   ,  Till Jesus Christ come in the fulness of time    , as the firstborn SON OF GOD  to  come though Victorious  over the beast  /dragon   and  take death from him    forever  setting those captives free   and  death  and those whom hold that covenant with death   will be undone   as they shall be trampled as they trampled down   the innocent   Isaiah 28

These are the Head and authority   ,  [John 20]and the soudariona head cloth (for the dead).  that was upon His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but having been folded up in a place by itself. when Christ rose from the dead ,,,     As  the head and  Body is being formed  even now  to His feet  and teaching  us all about the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ , being the very Spirit of prophecy and the fulfilling of all things in Christ /GODS WORD   as the  Heavenly witness  and the Spirit of truth  with Him ...

I have prayed about this , and was  given this in  thoughts  this  morning ,   as it troubled me all night .

I fear the Lord more than  what will happen to me in this world      finally
 

[rosered]

I think some of us have been entrapped within man made religion which emphasizes 'wrath' and 'judgment'  for years..when we come into the wonderful light and bathe in the love of UR we may sound a little 'new agey' in that we think of and emphasize love..whereas before we emphasized 'judgement' ..all I know is 'love' is the hardest thing to practice..it's easy and 'natural' to judge others..it's way harder to love.

  Amen , It is hard  to learn  to Love  and be as  God wants us to be   , removing those  offensive   things    and cutting them off  and away from us ,  we can never ever do this in our own powers  ,  prayer brother lots and lots of prayers        , ask the Lord for His help constantly   ,   stay  needy   and  innocent , don't try to take vengeance   , it will only worsen the   situation
  We cannot ever excuse ourselves   and hold others in contempt 

  I never in a billion years thought  GOD   would     remove the anger  and count  any kind of persecutions as joy     I am having in the world  in general  , some of the same old trials of faith    and failing them over and over again ,,, 
  for so many years  I just cried like a baby   in tears  asking God for forgiveness   and learning to pray for the enemies   ,    I was an enemy  to them ! 

   the same as they were an enemy to me ! and both of us were  enemies  of the Cross of Christ  HE DIED , because  BOTH  our bad natures warring against each other , when satan rises against satan   the house cannot stand   but divides     ,   going back  to the old law   under the ministration of death   eye for eye and tooth for tooth and making blood  spilling  sacrifices  of exacting   jots and tittles  of the law . Death is the result of sin and error  , we are to press on  go forth and rise up and sin no more unless a worse thing  comes upon us ...
learning that for real  now ..

Faith   I thought I had , but when  ''put to the test''    I had none , oh I was one of little faith ...  faith is a  hard thing to understand  as I am   carnal   , it is like you can have it and if you never use it it gets old and weak  useless  when you need it   , it dont work ,, , but when it is exercised    and used and put  out there , even Abraham  is a great example  , it was counted for him as righteousness  , his act of  going to kill his son for God  ,

putting God above all   things   was the noble   act   and proving faith   , but it was    a carnal thing to  literally  kill his son and shed his blood  over an alter of  stones and wood    made with hands  ..  He was literal    in that sense  and carnal in thinking it pleases God  ,  but after reading God did not want   sacrifices   and offerings , BUT OBEDIENCE     , that made me think different  as to why  blood was  always offered      and the parallel     of the  LORD JESUS CHRIST    the son of  GOD    being made the   perfect lamb    and His blood   shed   sacrifice  for all  and for all times .

Jesus was not killed  by anyone  , but they sure did desire to kill Him , same as hate    , I went to a church years ago whom was ''hung  on that tree ''    pun ,  hung up on saying the Jews killed Jesus ,   but they never read when Jesus  laid  down His life willingly  and for this purpose did He come  , to make the open show of what was hidden for all those  10000's of years and generations     , this changes your mind , when you read   His word   constantly  ,and find new things with more    light and knowledge   of Him  ,  you don't get hung up on one train of thought  as it is the HOLY SPIRIT teaching you   by quickening  His word in your heart making it live in you ... and no one can change your mind   , only God can    help us grow in truth and grace   ..

  To God be all the glory     

[rosered]

"it's easy and natural to judge exactly! the tokogae in the natural man......that man thought would make him like God........

     Jesus tasted death for all men.when He come in flesh....and give man a taste' of life/token..of the new spirit man to come.TOL

Yes !  ,the Spirit gives LIFE , many go back  and turn to that law  of death , as Moses is that judge   and to believe Him , he never got to  see the promised land while in the days of his flesh

.The Witness of Scripture
...45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father.

Your accuser is Moses,

in whom you have put your hope.

46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me.

47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"...How will they hear what the Spirit is saying ?

John 6 Many Disciples Turn Back


...62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing.


The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.


64 However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...

[bushy]

Isaiah 26:9  At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Psalm 98
7 Let the sea roar and all it contains;
         The world and those who dwell in it.
8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
         Let the mountains sing together for joy

9 Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth;
         He will judge the world with righteousness
         And the peoples with equity.

Why should we be afraid of judgment? Most on this site are here because we used to think judgement had only two outcomes, heaven or hell, and it is a big relief to get rid of that idea. But these verses show what judgement is and what the outcome really is which is something really good.

Should we be a little bit afraid, just not scared to death about coming judgement? And should we be afraid of being a little bit new agey or what? Or are we just talking about all those evil people out there getting away with all kinds of stuff?

For me I am not afraid of what the Father is going to do to me because I trust Him that it will be good. I don't understand the warnings about judgement like I'm supposed to clean up my act a little more and walk in fear at least a little. At the same time I would be afraid if I was trying to get away with stealing or sneaking off with some cutie. So maybe that's the answer. Fear to do evil. And if we do, be happy for God's discipline and judgement.