2 Thess 1:8

[anti_nietzsche]

This verse often serves as a prooftext for God's punishment of non-christians. But if you read it in the greek, it is not the people that are punished with eonian destruction here, but instead their justice, their righteousness. It is works being burned up, but people being saved again. It is about a justice that is not based on love and then 10 commandments, it is about a justice that is not real justice at all. But God does not punish people with pain and suffering, he just allows their systems of righteousness getting destroyed.

[Seth]

I think the context, having just read the passage, is not just all unbelievers in general, so I think you are right. But I think is does refer to unbelievers who tormented the church.

[rosered]

This verse often serves as a prooftext for God's punishment of non-christians. But if you read it in the greek, it is not the people that are punished with eonian destruction here, but instead their justice, their righteousness. It is works being burned up, but people being saved again. It is about a justice that is not based on love and then 10 commandments, it is about a justice that is not real justice at all. But God does not punish people with pain and suffering, he just allows their systems of righteousness getting destroyed.

I think the context, having just read the passage, is not just all unbelievers in general, so I think you are right. But I think is does refer to unbelievers who tormented the church.

Hi bros ,
  I also see those still under the law  of sin and death   trying to kill the  new life in Christ  , by quenching the Holy SPirit in them  that are just innocent babes .

We already know the world is on fire , it is  full of iniquity ...

But it is   the'' religious spirits ''of Babylon /confusion by mixing  both law of death and life  or the tree of knowledge of good and evil   and idolatry  that sacrifice to demons  and call it God and that influence  , that both Sauls were under , the Saul of  Davids time  was rejected because  he was   disobedient  against God

taking the spoils  of war  for himself  ,and did not glorify God , but was unfaithful by  feeding the god of his own belly  ,    the other Saul our Paul , given a new name and Nature  ,   left death and the old law   and Baylon , behind him and raced to complete his course  ,  spreading   the seeds of hope in  the good news of the gospel of Jesus life in Christ for the TRUE AND LIVING GOD OF ALL...

All dwelled in darkness till the Light fully come  THE DAY and Light of the world  , JESUS CHRIST in the fulness of time come as a babe born of a woman under the same law  of sin and death  , but was our example of GODS HOLINESS TO SALVATION  HAD COME to us ]  this being   why there is no more excuse... all this is in my own opinion and what I believe to be the Holy Spirit teaching personally  ...

For me , after reading the script  of the Pharisees and the publican https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18:9-14

After reading  this   ,   I could more clearly see it is those whom KNOW , by the Holy Spirit conviction  , that they need JESUS CHRIST  and HIS MERCY 

and to become merciful to others  whom are in the same condition  that   the publican  found himself in ,

as we ALL NEED JESUS  , I know not one who does not need salvation  though the Lord Jesus Christ ... 
and saw the ''religious  spirit'' of Babylon  still in   the Pharisee's  heart ruling over him as a god to his own belly and the sin of idolatry    and still sacrificing to demons ,    the same innocent blood of the lambs  , When the LAMB OF GOD  was already   given , so the law of sin and death  is still  considered   as those  of the world    and still trapped in Babylon  till they have  paid their dues along with the rest of the world  still in darkness because they have not yet come into the LIGHT
  This wrath of God to me  is the punishment  for sin to never know the love of God   in their earthly mortal lives [all the days of their life ,  being  the mistranslated word forever but it only means ,aion is an AGE or a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL  of  Gehenna fire   ]

For me at this time I can surly see how the serpent / carnal mind [death]   does eat the dust all the days of his life ...  the gods of their own belly  does not have living waters  flowing  out of them , but scattered dust of the flesh they have destroyed along  with their own  bodies that have sinned against . dust devils  in the fire and torment  of their own  doings [fruits bared ]
 
Here are more scriptures that also are in agreement  with 2Thess 1;8



Christ's Coming
...7and to grant relief to you who are oppressed, and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

8in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,...[we now know it is age during and not forever as some have believed  and still  believe ]

Psalm 79:6
Pour out Your wrath upon the nations which do not know You, And upon the kingdoms which do not call upon Your name.

Isaiah 1:28
But transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, And those who forsake the LORD will come to an end.[ that does not sound like forever to me ]

Jeremiah 10:25
Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You And on the families that do not call Your name; For they have devoured Jacob; They have devoured him and consumed him And have laid waste his habitation.

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.

1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?

Jude 1:7
In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

  The Fire does not end in this world , it is perpetual    , it has its times and days and seasons    ,  that all for that ''time appointed'' have to endure  fiery trials  that   produce  fruit  and increase   faith .. our very substance  of things hoped for

In   their DAY OF THE LORD   here is an example God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah 'forever' - until... the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)until  God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez. 16:53-55);

ONLY GOD can deliver  any of us out   of the fires of torment  or the waves   of destruction  .... 
I do believe Babylon is falling in many  in this DAY of the Lord  !      hallelujah  !!!   :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Interestingly to this point, in verse 9- another ET proof verse.....

olethron aionion apo prosopou tou Kyrion

apo, in 650 occurences always indicates "because of" or "out of" and is almost always translated "from" or "by"

In just these few examples of apo from Matthew.......

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."                  Fruits come "out of" a person.

"spirit is gone out from the man"                      The spirit comes "out of" the man

there came wise men from the east to             The wise men came "out of" the east

you should not fear because of those who kill   

straightway out of the water:                         

And so it is throughout all of the uses, I've looked at hundreds...

But in 2 Thess 1:9 It is translated as if apo means that these transgressors are punished by being "away from" or "shut out" of the presence of the Lord

NIV- They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might


Actually, in like every other occurrence of apo.... Not one or two, but hundreds- they are "punished with aionian destruction "out of" or, "because of", or "from" the presence of the Lord.

The presence of the Lord is the source of their destruction, because our God is a consuming fire and light is fire to darkness..

This is confirmed for me in Revelation 14:10  "And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."

The destruction that comes upon them will destroy their works and principles and attitudes- and bring them to repentance, because "every knee shall bow", every adversay will be subjected, God will be all in all.

[anti_nietzsche]

Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!

[rosered]

Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!

  You are making me  think !!!  I thanked God for this ,  LOVE   fulfills the   HOLY Law  :HeartThrob: 





  "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one`s life for his friends" (John 15:13).

7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.   [So wanting to good only to please  God  , God  sees  this in our hearts  and  gives us opportunities by His Holy Spirit to  glorify Him]

8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.under the teaching of the Holy Spirit or under His feet , spreading new seeds  of hope  in the hearts of mankind   in  the gospel of peace ]    :HeartThrob:
9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love.[ our focus is to  plant and water as the Father gives the  spiritual growth ]
10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.[  It is Gods will that none should perish ]
11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled.  joy is gladness  , making one happy and this joy is unspeakable and full of glory ]
12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.!!!!
14 You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.

This made me also think of Paul's  words fulfilling the  Royal Holy Law ..and THIS GOSPEL preached and teached to all the world as a witness WOW!!!

Laying your life down is working death in you so life in others can  have the same joy  , Jesus has given to you ...  that all can rejoice  in the LOVE OF GOD  :HeartThrob:

    life for you but death  for us , laying down your life , same as Jesus did  , to have it taken back up Again .....  the higher LAW OF LOVE  being the PERFECT BOND OF  UNITY    is found in Colossians  3 ... :HeartThrob:



3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency may be of the power of God, and not of us.

8 In all things we suffer tribulation, but are not distressed; we are straitened, but are not destitute;
9 We suffer persecution, but are not forsaken; we are cast down, but we perish not:
10 Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.
11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake; that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then death works in us, but life in you.  laying your life down   only to be taken back up again  by Gods Spirit giving  spiritual growth and increase of more grace  and truth  in love  as   fruits   making new  believers in Christ  , Jesus Christ gave us this knowing though His own Spirit of prophecy .telling us what happens when you obey  HIS GOSPEL IN  GLORIFYING HIS FATHER  ...


13 But having the same spirit of faith, as it is written: I believed, for which cause I have spoken; we also believe, for which cause we speak also:


14 Knowing that he who raised up Jesus, will raise us up also with Jesus, and place us with you.  wow!!! :HeartThrob:

15 For all things are for your sakes; that the grace abounding through many, may abound in thanksgiving unto the glory of God.


16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man is corrupted, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


17 For that which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, works for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory.


18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen.[LORD INCREASE OUR FAITH ] For the things which are seen, are temporal; but the things which are not seen, are eternal.[  AS HOPE AND LOVE ABOUND without ending ]

So desiring to Live this  and die in this to a better resurrection   by the inner man being renewed day by  day , as more Light of the gospel  increases , who loves the Lord and all   , for our hope for mankind   in the love of Christ that compels us  :HeartThrob:  Hebrews 11

  :HeartThrob:   :cloud9:

[Shev]

Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!

For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.  4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.  5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."[a]

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?  8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.  9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?  10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.  11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:3-11)

Not to be too contrary, but I do believe God does give us pain and suffering, per the above scriptures, just like He gave Christ the cup pain and suffering to fulfill His purposes:

And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mark 14:36)

I may be taking what you said out of context though.

[sheila]

I believe the Lord chasten's all..even those on the 'outside' of the church.and He uses the authorities to do it..a man driving drunk is

chastened and not without discipline when he is caught.and other acts of gross lawlessness also.Divorce,loss of jobs,alienation from the

family,long prison terms..even death sentences.these are correctional and stripes too. If a man turn from it...then he can finish his days

free from such.Learning to 'quit touching it". many alcoholics call on a'Higher Power" to help them turn from it/resist it etc.

  what do we know about  the 'secret man of the heart" in these people to say they are not sons? Adam is a son of God/prodigal

but named a son..all mankind is. being adopted is partial light seeing through a glass darkly.] God is man's natural spiritual Father.

[rosered]

 
SO many folks are not spiritually  awakened out of sleep  yet ,,
 
they remain in  the

  sleep of Adam    ,    and God did this , made the woman come out of the man  , what God has joined together  let no man separate    .. in every  soul /life  born [Gen 1]   God was showing them  the two   were One  in the beginning ..   

   the woman/  the hidden within every man born  of woman ,   that comes out of mankind is  deceived by the serpent  [beast ]    and never ever even realize it , they never "catch on  to what is happening to them "   spiritually speaking    , I am not talking  about flesh and blood here at all .

the Creation of Woman
20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.

note   please  ,  God  sealed it up  what was  hidden  inside .  mankind /Adam  and brought out of  mankind / Adam     his wife /Eve  mother of all the living .

22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man....


1 Corinthians 11:8
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man.  being the weaker "condition     breath "

Genesis 15:12
Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him.   AS  his soul "breath " come  forth  out of him   unto the awaking of the LORDS SPIRIT .  Father of  faith and  upon all nations   this seed  would be blessed ....

  Spirit  is the Life force  and soul  is" the breath" as the Life force gives it " existence /Life   , birthing /offspring " soul /woman    in a body .

Romans   11
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."     HOLY SEED   to  remain  in the earth   as anointed / Christ   to come  forth   as to  the LIVING  GOD  ...

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.


6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8 just as it is written,

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, SLUMBER a pricking, piercing

severe sorrow, extreme grief

insensibility or torpor a state of physical or mental inactivity; lethargy. of mind, such as extreme grief easily produces

hence a "spirit of stupor", which renders their souls torpid (of an animal) dormant, especially during hibernation.so insensible that they are not affected at all by the offer made them of salvation through the Messiah   :eek:
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day."
9 And David says,

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever."
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.


AMEN !!!!  no one  even  realizes they are Lawless   , without the Law   written in their Hearts by God Himself ...

   Being under the   spirit of sleep / stupor  TO THIS DAY ...

Yes,  the Light has come to the gentiles / all nations   to whom so  ever  will be awakened by the Light  out of sleep  , spiritually speaking    Gods is showing mercy  in this time  on all ..
  Until the  fulness of the  nations comes in  and  than  last Israel   whom was first shall come in , till  all   be fulfilled ..

Gods  mercy to  all ... not all shall sleep   but be changed  !!!    newness of Life  1 Corh 15 Where O Death is Your Victory?
50 Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed —

52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed....:HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!

Suffering and pain are the consequences of being in an adverarial relationship with God.

My point in adressing "apo" in 2 Thess 1:9 is not that God is tormenting people, but that His presence is a torment to His adversaries. The light attacks the darkness by nature. Those who love darkness are discomfitted, ruined, destroyed by the Day. Their destruction is the ruination of the strongholds and fortresses that they have erected against the true(unveiled) knowledge of God- which is the manifestation of His divine nature.

Everyone loves to say, "I believe this"...." I believe that". So be it- we all may believe as we will. :o)

But it is profitable for a man or woman of God- a disciple of Jesus Christ -to reconcile their beliefs with the scriptures.

Does God inflict pain?

Loaded question. Some people present as if for God to inflict pain at all is the same as if Gd inflicts pain for the sake of pain.

Is pain the worst thing one can do to another?

Loaded question. To inflict pain to prevent destruction? To inflict pain to change direction?

Why would the Father allow the Son to endure so much pain? Why would the Son call us to pick up His cross and come follow Him?

The chaos of this world is all within God's ability to control and eradicate. The suffering in this world is all within God's ability to resolve- and He will.

But why does He wait?

Peter says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Or as Paul said, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive!

When? Each in his own order. How? When the knee bows and the tongue confesses- "Jesus Christ is Lord"

How did Jesus become Lord? Because He humbled Himself to the point of death on a cross.

How do we become His disciples. Taking His yoke upon us. Taking up His cross. Filling up His sufferings?

The world refuses this, so the world gets to experience it in other ways that are not according to their pleasure or their will.

It is mostly the result of reaping what they so, but God is not mocked. Sometimes He does inflict suffering, on you, on me, on the world.....


Chaos, futility, it is the furnace from within which the gold will be refined- the glorious liberty of the children of God, which is loving so much they will die for it.

One day the whole creation will have seen and embraced the beauty of this love.

Along the way there will be futility. And that futility, that chaos, that schoolroom- was not set up by man, or by the devil.

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

We fret about the futility and miss the lessons of it. We pick at God for the jots and tittles and miss the grand design.

All will be redeemed. All will be reconciled. All will set free from futility.

How?

Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Some will suffer for righteousness and inherit a better resurrection. Some will suffer for unrighteousness. Some will suffer in this life. SOme in the next.

How?

Why try to define it? Jesus, Paul, James, the author of Hebrews, Peter- all have warned of the judgment to come.

Why? Because even tho God's plan is prepared t bring ALL into reconciliation, their is a reckoning for unrighteousness, and that reckoning stands until one bows the knee, in a broken and a contrite heart, and confesses from a humble and grateful heart, that Jesus Christ, in the love that He displayed upon the cross- is Lord of them- each one.

According to the scriptures there is an easy way on a narrow path and there is a hard way on a wide path.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
.....for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. .......in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Some will stand accused, some will stand excused- in the mirror of their own conscience. I believe that image, for the accused, will cause torment until the knee is bowed, the acknowledgment made- and I believe many will resist that acknowedgment.

For whatever that span is- they will endure aionian kolassis in aionian pyr- or "olam esch" as a hebrew would put it.

The fire of His eyes, searching the innermost being until every hidden thing is brought to light- and it will hurt, according to Him, their is a consequence for refusing the grace offerred in mortal time, and a consequence for carrying one's rebellion into aionian time.

Paul agrees. James agrees. I agree. The scriptures agree in my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire.

Will we instruct James?

Did not James understand that it is a metaphor? OF COURSE, HE SAID, "AS IT WERE FIRE"

But is a metaphor for a difficult experience to endure and one from which we WARN THE WICKED TO AMEND HIS WAY, because the message of redemtion is not the whole gospel.....

To proclaim the judgment to come is not judging in itself....

"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God." 1 Cor 4:5

This verse clearly shows that the nature of judgment is to reveal that which is hidden. The process of judgment is not always pleasant. Where there is no judgment/discernment/justice there is chaos, futility and suffering, according to God's design.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ involves the subjection of every adversary and death will not be anulled unti the last adversary is sujected. Death is the wage of sin. As long as there is death- somewhere sin is still found. The second death will be a dealing with sin. When death is destroyed there must therefore be NO MORE SIN.
All the adversaries will have been subjected, and God will be all in all(as I read it anyway). In the meantime, in this age and the one to come- there will still be sin, chaos, futility and judgment.

A tree of wickedness, watered and cultivated in the heart, will grow roots and tho it may be cut down in a moment, often the roots will require more pain of extrication and cling powerfully within the heart, and bring with them as they are pulled out- much substance of the ground in which they were sown.

Beware lest any root of bitterness spring up among you, by which many may be defiled.

[Dandelion]

Yes.....

How can light exist with darkness; how can the carnal exist in a spiritual realm, understanding the things of God, not with the intellect, but within each person, in the Spirit?

How can we rise with Christ, when we have not died with Him?

To be part of the body of Christ requires a oneness with Him and the body.....unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it remains alone.

We cannot share the glory, without sharing the pain. That is not love. If love is to never fail, then it must be there for the joy and the sorrow.

How can we enter Heaven, and yet, not know how to love?

Then Heaven will not be Heaven, but a repeat of the earth we knew.

How can we exist in the perfection of Heaven, if we cannot bear one another's burdens, before we get there?

The greater good is for God to cleanse us, so we can all know the joy of Heaven, for eternity, with Him.

Just as we let our children cry, if we stop them from danger, so our Father allows us pain and sorrow, in exchange for an eternity of joy.

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." John 3:3

D.

[sheila]

  He told the disciples He had much more to tell them..but they could not bear it at present.

    He showed in the parable of the prodigal's son return and the workers in the vineyard that the 'elder' sons would not take it well.

   Just as the religious leaders in His day balked at the free forgiveness  of the sins of the people under the law,so,too religious

  leaders exhibit in christendom the same attitude against those that haven't repented and confessed on this side.


   maybe it is hard to bear unjust stripes,pick up your  cross.and be mocked.,spit on..and be crucified and be mocked....and still say

  Father forgive them,they know not what they do? But if you follow Him,you must

   He also said ...I judge no man..but these words I speak shall judge you on the last day

[eaglesway]

All who have been forgiven in this age have repented.

All who will be forgiven in the age to come will "bow the knee" and "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"

The question is not about God's forgiveness. God has forgiven all, but no one reaps the benefit of that until they see Christ crucified and submit to His love.

Forgiveness has been provided for ALL the adversaries, but until they come under the Lordship of Jesus, they are ruled by the god of this age, the lusts of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind etc.

Of course we love and forgive them. We are the messengers of reconciliation, as sheep led to slaughter all the day long.

The question is, if Jesus alluded to aionian kolassis in several places and Paul taught it, and Peter, and John revealed it in Revelation, by what scripture can one refute it?

Dont misunderstand me... I dont have a problem with someone who believes that everyone else will get a free pass at the great white throne, or that no one will be able to stand against His glory and every knee will bow instantly.

That is an opinion some folks hold. I think it is an error, but only time will tell for sure.

What I have a problem with is when someone teaches it as if they have a "special revelation" that transcends the scriptures. Because the scriptures definitely have many references to aionian kolassis.

To me, the only acceptable way to teach otherwise is to provides scriptures that show that what Jesus taught in Matthew 25 and what John said in Rev 14:10  does not apply to the Great White Throne judgment and beyond.

No one is doing that that I can see, so I will continue to disagree with both that conclusion and the method in which it is being presented--- that of a philosophical argument, or some "deeper revelation".

I believe the judgment to come will be difficult for many persisently wicked and predatory evil doers and the fire of His love w2ill be a torment to them until they repent before it and that that will take some different measures of experience depending upon their hardness of heart. Thats my opinion.

It is not my opinion that Jesus and Paul and John taught tht the judgment to come would be fearful for the wicked. That is a fact.

Believers, at least believers like me, need to see that the scriptures support whatever theories we, as universalists present- not just "oh these are deeper things you maybe are not ready for yet".

One big objection I have is that since death is the last adversary to be subjected, if God instantly becomes all in all at the GWT, the whole reference to the lake of fire in Rev 20 would be irrevelant and unnecessary. As would all other references to aionian pyr and aionian kolassis and the judgment to come, along with any warnings to repent in anticipation of it.

But there are many such references, including, "Blessed and holy are those who partake in the first ressurection, for the second death will have no power over them"

I think reducing all those warnings to the status of allegory simply disrespects the scriptures at a level where all becomes allegory, nothing has any authority, beyond the revelations of each individual.

THE PRODIGAL SON

The prodigal son repented. He humbled himself and returned as a servant on bended knee. The self-righteous son FAILED TO ACCEPT THE FATHER'S decision- but the Father recieved the son back because he had been "dead"(in rebellion and selfishness) but was now "alive"(in the humility of repentence).

There is no reconciliation without repentence.

The method of that humility may be disputable. The fact of it is not.

"Men and brethren what must we do?" Let everyone of you repent....."

Repenting is not coming under law, it is coming into the love of the Lord Jesus. Coming into one's right mind- as the prodigal did, and returning home, to serve, to wash one another's feet, to live in a community within the love of God.

The crystal sea before the throne is peace(reconciliation) the canopy over it is love(union and communion) the Door to the sheepfold is the cross(death to self) and the resurrection comes through the burial of the old man, so we must throw a couple shovels full of dirt on ourselves- "If anyone will be my disciple".....

I think the judgment to come will be more like birthpangs that stripes of a whip. Even as we presently hav these birthpangs as His image is formed in us, so will the adversaries of Christ in the ages to come- because it is all about transformation, not arbitrary punishment or leveling acounts.

Transformation can be painful and of varying duration according to the characteristics of individuals.

IMO that is what we ought to teach about judgment in the age to come(because that is what I see in the scriptures).

Not that it doesnt exist- but that whatever it is, it transforms.

I dont believe in teaching that there will be no judgment at all, because if there is no aionian pyr or aionian kolassis, then there is a whole bunch of words attributed to Jesus and the apostles that are basically meaningless... But I offer that as my opinion based on the scriptures.

As for anyone's "special revelation" or deeper revelation that does not require scripture for confirmation. I reject that completely, and I believe that method of presentation undercuts the validity biblical universalism in general.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[sheila]

I didn't say there was no judgement..I shared God's judgement...THE PRINCE of this world is judged that his works are wicked=satan

   God's judgement after the tabernacle pattern= last act of HIGH PREIST=put all sin on Azazael's head. Judgement of Babylon=destruction

  blood of all mankind/she is a female counterpart spirit that permeates the whole earth=sex maddness,idolatry,wars etc.

   He tells us her judgement also in Revelations.

    all mankind will enter Christ's body...given corrective doctrines...and there will no longer be an 'evil' contrast[cananite] in His house.

  the whole world see's Him comeing in judgement/discerning the times..and when some-one speaks it...they can't hear it.

   why do we not believe that He took all the sins away at the cross....why do we put the stripes He bore...and the cross and

put them back on men?TRUST/FAITH......why do we put men in the LOF with His judgement of satan and his angels[demons]

  earth ripe for harvest..the sythe in His hand....reaping the spirits of men into His heavenly kingdom...and the chaff/straw weeds burned

  weeds=the evil seed the enemy sowed=demons...the good seed God sowed in His image and likeness[see His statement..'it is good'

   they're myriad scriptures...destroy this temple...and on the third day I will raise it up...men's bodies are stolen temple vessels..babylon

spirit drinks from them...idolaltry/immorality...and He reveals His judgement of her.....man of sin/satan and demons possesing His

vessels[man created for His spirit to dwell in} Will lose what they thought they had.....all the plagues,bowls etc worked against

the Prince of this world.to let my people go.

  eternal correction=negative contrast destroyed...children  in the Holy city/MT ZION/Jerusalem Above taught of Him without interference

  then the spirits can become 'JUST" as to understanding His judgements..and become perfect in understanding.Total clarity as to

how He has kept us ALL spotless and blamless and free of any accusation of sin.

   judging by appearance...we look at mankind and we 'see' sin...so we become confused...how did He take away all sin...when I see sin

running rampant in the earth?  He too,will reveal how He kept us as 'virgins"  of virgin daughter Babylon..how can a whore be a virgin?

    if the inner spirit is virgin and outer vessel has the image/likeness/spirit of a whore..dwelling in it is how.

[sheila]

I invite you all to go to Him in prayer and ask Him about what I have shared with you....please..... :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

He is doing a SAUL/PAUL work...Paul likened himself as one born prematurely[the ploughman overtaking the reaper]

   Saul's on the road to Dam[as] cu[r]s those whose sin have been atoned for/forgiven will have an expierence on that road.

[sheila]

there is a deaf and mute spirit..of which the disciple's were unable to cast out.  it is know to seize 'son and cast them down in

  water and fire to try and kill them. pray for those wh suffer this 'seizeure" of this spirit that thinks it is equal to God.

     Jesus told the disciples this kind come out only by prayer and fasting[the fast He approves is quit pointing the finger...etc= fast from

    demonic doctrins]

[Seth]

"Why do we not believe he took all sin away at the cross?"

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit? If Jesus took all their sin away at the cross, shouldn't Peter have said, "you lied, but Jesus took away all your sin, so have a good day." Why should God send strong delusion to anyone? Why should Jerusalem have been judged in 70 AD when Christ already dealt with their sin by that time?

Obviously, there is something about what he did on the cross that still allows him to judge mankind literally, not just in types and shadows. I believe it has to do with the fact that the cross is realized in the earth as the death of the flesh. That we must all die on the cross through repentance, amd God's judgments pave the way for repentance.

[Seth]

It seems arbitrary to say that God will judge in this life post-Cross but not in the next one and the only reason being because he died on the cross for them. And that he loves them and forgives them. Believing in judgement after resurrection doesn't deny the cross any more than acknowledging judgment in this life denies it.

[sheila]

you left a very important piece out of the Annais and Sapphira example...namely satan/the Prince of this world who is judged.....

    God's anger is not directed specifically at man...GRACE AND FREE GIFT OF LIFE to man. But..if we are joined to demons we may

get our vessel[flesh body] cracked when He deals with the demon.Their spirit returned to God...their flesh body with sin in it to the dust.

   offspring of vipers sitting on religious leaders had those people in Jerusalem believing them...and they didn't leave when they saw

    Jerusalem surrounded by armies because of it......and were starved out..........their spirit returned unto God and their flesh,too,was

    was thrown into the valley..and returned unto dust

   Moses..exasperated.into disobedience..satan argued he had the right to enter his body...before Father allowed that,he had Moses die

and his spirit return unto God.

   Jesus come to 'break up" the works of the devil.......rod of iron to the potters vessel[our clay vessels] the spirit returns to God and

  the vessel to dust..and satan finds another[seeking who he may devour]

   Moses serpent turned into a bigger serpent and devoured the Eyptians serpent.......him who destroys God's temple..God will destroy.

[Seth]

Peter said to Ananias, YOU lied to the Holy Spirit, not "Satan lied through you, so, sorry you have to die so God can get at Satan." People are judged for what they do. Ananias and Sapphira were judged for what THEY did.

Again, if you acknowledge God's judgment after the cross in this life, there's no conflict between judgment and the cross in the next life either.

[sheila]

when He comes to reap the earth....the offspring of viper spirits are going to be on the run. These possesing men of sin will say

  to the rocks" hide us from the wrath of the Lamb." Since man are little peices of the ROCK..your flesh is where they will seek to hide.

    the caves and clefts of your flesh.  The end of all flesh is come.

[Seth]

Not sure how that address the point I made but I don't believe that people have to be demon possessed to sin. They may be influenced, but that doesn't mean that God is hold demons solely responsible. The NT is really clear on this point. People are judged for what they do.

[sheila]

those negative thoughts that just 'appear' in our mind..that we have to bring into subjection to Christ? where do you think they come from?

  our imagination or 'wicked image inations?   the filthy images on the wall of the temple? that wall is your mind..and they project their

thoughts on it.

  ps..already wrote the post before reading yours,Seth