This verse often serves as a prooftext for God's punishment of non-christians. But if you read it in the greek, it is not the people that are punished with eonian destruction here, but instead their justice, their righteousness. It is works being burned up, but people being saved again. It is about a justice that is not based on love and then 10 commandments, it is about a justice that is not real justice at all. But God does not punish people with pain and suffering, he just allows their systems of righteousness getting destroyed.
I think the context, having just read the passage, is not just all unbelievers in general, so I think you are right. But I think is does refer to unbelievers who tormented the church.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 14, 2016, 10:05:15 AM
This verse often serves as a prooftext for God's punishment of non-christians. But if you read it in the greek, it is not the people that are punished with eonian destruction here, but instead their justice, their righteousness. It is works being burned up, but people being saved again. It is about a justice that is not based on love and then 10 commandments, it is about a justice that is not real justice at all. But God does not punish people with pain and suffering, he just allows their systems of righteousness getting destroyed.
Quote from: Seth on August 14, 2016, 06:40:35 PM
I think the context, having just read the passage, is not just all unbelievers in general, so I think you are right. But I think is does refer to unbelievers who tormented the church.
Hi bros ,
I also see those still under the law of sin and death trying to kill the new life in Christ , by quenching the Holy SPirit in them that are just innocent babes .
We already know the world is on fire , it is full of iniquity ...
But it is the'' religious spirits ''of Babylon /confusion by mixing both law of death and life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil and idolatry that sacrifice to demons and call it God and that influence , that both Sauls were under , the Saul of Davids time was rejected because he was disobedient against God
taking the spoils of war for himself ,and did not glorify God , but was unfaithful by feeding the god of his own belly , the other Saul our Paul , given a new name and Nature , left death and the old law and Baylon , behind him and raced to complete his course , spreading the seeds of hope in the good news of the gospel of Jesus life in Christ for the TRUE AND LIVING GOD OF ALL...
All dwelled in darkness till the Light fully come THE DAY and Light of the world , JESUS CHRIST in the fulness of time come as a babe born of a woman under the same law of sin and death , but was our example of GODS HOLINESS TO SALVATION HAD COME to us ] this being why there is no more excuse... all this is in my own opinion and what I believe to be the Holy Spirit teaching personally ...
For me , after reading the script of the Pharisees and the publican https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18:9-14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18:9-14)
After reading this , I could more clearly see it is those whom KNOW , by the Holy Spirit conviction , that they need JESUS CHRIST and HIS MERCY
and to become merciful to others whom are in the same condition that the publican found himself in ,
as we ALL NEED JESUS , I know not one who does not need salvation though the Lord Jesus Christ ...
and saw the ''religious spirit'' of Babylon still in the Pharisee's heart ruling over him as a god to his own belly and the sin of idolatry and still sacrificing to demons , the same innocent blood of the lambs , When the LAMB OF GOD was already given , so the law of sin and death is still considered as those of the world and still trapped in Babylon till they have paid their dues along with the rest of the world still in darkness because they have not yet come into the LIGHT
This wrath of God to me is the punishment for sin to never know the love of God in their earthly mortal lives [all the days of their life , being the mistranslated word
forever but it only means ,aion is an AGE or a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL of Gehenna fire ]
For me at this time I can surly see how the serpent / carnal mind [death] does eat the dust all the days of his life ... the gods of their own belly does not have living waters flowing out of them , but scattered dust of the flesh they have destroyed along with their own bodies that have sinned against . dust devils in the fire and torment of their own doings [fruits bared ]
Here are more scriptures that also are in agreement with 2Thess 1;8
Christ's Coming
...7and to grant relief to you who are oppressed, and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels
8in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,...[we now know it is age during and not forever as some have believed and still believe ]
Psalm 79:6
Pour out Your wrath upon the nations which do not know You, And upon the kingdoms which do not call upon Your name.
Isaiah 1:28
But transgressors and sinners will be crushed together, And those who forsake the LORD
will come to an end.[ that does not sound like forever to me ]
Jeremiah 10:25
Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You And on the families that do not call Your name; For they have devoured Jacob; They have devoured him and consumed him And have laid waste his habitation.
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and
follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God
, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
Jude 1:7
In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
The Fire does not end in this world , it is perpetual , it has its times and days and seasons , that
all for that ''time appointed'' have to endure fiery trials that produce fruit and increase faith .. our very substance of things hoped for
In their DAY OF THE LORD here is an example God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah 'forever' - until... the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)until God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez. 16:53-55);
ONLY GOD can deliver any of us out of the fires of torment or the waves of destruction ....
I do believe Babylon is falling in many in this DAY of the Lord ! hallelujah !!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Interestingly to this point, in verse 9- another ET proof verse.....
olethron aionion apo prosopou tou Kyrion
apo, in 650 occurences always indicates "because of" or "out of" and is almost always translated "from" or "by"
In just these few examples of apo from Matthew.......
"Ye shall know them by their fruits." Fruits come "out of" a person.
"spirit is gone out from the man" The spirit comes "out of" the man
there came wise men from the east to The wise men came "out of" the east
you should not fear because of those who kill
straightway out of the water:
And so it is throughout all of the uses, I've looked at hundreds...
But in 2 Thess 1:9 It is translated as if apo means that these transgressors are punished by being "away from" or "shut out" of the presence of the Lord
NIV- They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Actually, in like every other occurrence of apo.... Not one or two, but hundreds- they are "punished with aionian destruction "out of" or, "because of", or "from" the presence of the Lord.
The presence of the Lord is the source of their destruction, because our God is a consuming fire and light is fire to darkness..
This is confirmed for me in Revelation 14:10 "And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."
The destruction that comes upon them will destroy their works and principles and attitudes- and bring them to repentance, because "every knee shall bow", every adversay will be subjected, God will be all in all.
Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 15, 2016, 11:48:15 AM
Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!
You are making me think !!! I thanked God for this , LOVE fulfills the HOLY Law :HeartThrob:
"
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one`s life for his friends" (John 15:13).
7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. [So wanting to good only to please God , God sees this in our hearts and gives us opportunities by His Holy Spirit to glorify Him]
8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and
become my disciples.under the teaching of the Holy Spirit or under His feet , spreading new seeds of hope in the hearts of mankind in the gospel of peace ] :HeartThrob:
9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love.[ our focus is to plant and water as the Father gives the spiritual growth ]
10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.[ It is Gods will that none should perish ]
11 These things I have spoken to you,
that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. joy is gladness , making one happy and this joy is unspeakable and full of glory ]
12 This is my commandment, tha
t you love one another, as I have loved you.13 Greater love than this no man hath, that
a man lay down his life for his friends.!!!!
14
You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. This made me also think of Paul's words fulfilling the Royal Holy Law ..and THIS GOSPEL preached and teached to
all the world as a witness WOW!!!
Laying your life down is working death in you so life in others can have the same joy , Jesus has given to you ... that all can rejoice in the LOVE OF GOD :HeartThrob:
life for you but death for us , laying down your life , same as Jesus did , to have
it taken back up Again ..... the higher LAW OF LOVE being the PERFECT BOND OF UNITY is found in Colossians 3 ... :HeartThrob:
3 And if our gospel be also hid,
it is hid to them that are lost,4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should not shine unto them.5 For we preach not ourselves,
but Jesus Christ our Lord; and ourselves your servants through Jesus.6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus.7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
that the excellency may be of the power of God, and not of us.
8 In all things we suffer tribulation, but are not distressed; we are straitened, but are not destitute;
9 We suffer persecution, but are not forsaken; we are cast down, but we perish not:
10 Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus,
that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake; that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12
So then death works in us, but life in you. laying your life down only to be taken back up again by Gods Spirit giving spiritual growth and increase of more grace and truth in love as fruits making new believers in Christ , Jesus Christ gave us this knowing though His own Spirit of prophecy .telling us what happens when you obey HIS GOSPEL IN GLORIFYING HIS FATHER ...
13 But having the
same spirit of faith, as it is written: I believed, for which cause I have spoken; we also believe, for which cause we speak also:
14 Knowing that he who raised up Jesus,
will raise us up also with Jesus, and place us with you. wow!!! :HeartThrob:
15 For all things are for your sakes; that
the grace abounding through many, may abound in thanksgiving unto the glory of God.16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man is corrupted,
yet the inward man is renewed day by day.17 For that which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation,
works for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory.18 While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen.[LORD INCREASE OUR FAITH ] For the things which are seen, are temporal;
but the things which are not seen, are eternal.[ AS HOPE AND LOVE ABOUND without ending ]
So desiring to Live this and die in this to a better resurrection by the inner man being renewed day by day , as more Light of the gospel increases , who loves the Lord and all , for our hope for mankind in the love of Christ that compels us :HeartThrob: Hebrews 11
:HeartThrob: :cloud9:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 15, 2016, 11:48:15 AM
Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!
For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:3-11)
Not to be too contrary, but I do believe God does give us pain and suffering, per the above scriptures, just like He gave Christ the cup pain and suffering to fulfill His purposes:
And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mark 14:36)
I may be taking what you said out of context though.
I believe the Lord chasten's all..even those on the 'outside' of the church.and He uses the authorities to do it..a man driving drunk is
chastened and not without discipline when he is caught.and other acts of gross lawlessness also.Divorce,loss of jobs,alienation from the
family,long prison terms..even death sentences.these are correctional and stripes too. If a man turn from it...then he can finish his days
free from such.Learning to 'quit touching it". many alcoholics call on a'Higher Power" to help them turn from it/resist it etc.
what do we know about the 'secret man of the heart" in these people to say they are not sons? Adam is a son of God/prodigal
but named a son..all mankind is. being adopted is partial light seeing through a glass darkly.] God is man's natural spiritual Father.
SO many folks are not spiritually awakened out of sleep yet ,,
they remain in the
sleep of Adam , and God did this , made the woman come out of the man , what God has joined together let no man separate .. in every soul /life born [Gen 1] God was showing them the two were One in the beginning ..
the woman/ the hidden within every man born of woman , that comes out of mankind is deceived by the serpent [beast ] and never ever even realize it , they never "catch on to what is happening to them " spiritually speaking , I am not talking about flesh and blood here at all .
the Creation of Woman
20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
note please , God sealed it up what was hidden inside . mankind /Adam and brought out of mankind / Adam his wife /Eve mother of all the living .
22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man....
1 Corinthians 11:8
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. being the weaker "condition breath "
Genesis 15:12
Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. AS his soul "breath " come forth out of him unto the awaking of the LORDS SPIRIT . Father of faith and upon all nations this seed would be blessed ....
Spirit is the Life force and soul is" the breath" as the Life force gives it " existence /Life , birthing /offspring " soul /woman in a body .
Romans 11
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." HOLY SEED to remain in the earth as anointed / Christ to come forth as to the LIVING GOD ...
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, SLUMBER a pricking, piercing
severe sorrow, extreme grief
insensibility or torpor a state of physical or mental inactivity; lethargy. of mind, such as extreme grief easily produces
hence a "spirit of stupor", which renders their souls torpid (of an animal) dormant, especially during hibernation.so insensible that they are not affected at all by the offer made them of salvation through the Messiah :eek:
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day."
9 And David says,
"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever."
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
AMEN !!!! no one even realizes they are Lawless , without the Law written in their Hearts by God Himself ...
Being under the spirit of sleep / stupor TO THIS DAY ...
Yes, the Light has come to the gentiles / all nations to whom so ever will be awakened by the Light out of sleep , spiritually speaking Gods is showing mercy in this time on all ..
Until the fulness of the nations comes in and than last Israel whom was first shall come in , till all be fulfilled ..
Gods mercy to all ... not all shall sleep but be changed !!! newness of Life 1 Corh 15 Where O Death is Your Victory?
50 Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed —
52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed....:HeartThrob:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 15, 2016, 11:48:15 AM
Hello eaglesway, I dont believe God gives us suffering and pain, but it is the guilt that some people have amassed that is paining them. As they do not care about the Gospel of love and forgiveness, their heart becomes too hard for these salvific feelings and thoughts, and they have no good conscience and some of them become worse and worse. By destroying their systems of bad justice, God is leading them to repentance. Some in this life, some in the next. But not everyone who speaks against christians is really evil. And Jesus tells not to repay evil with evil, but to overcome evil with good. This can sometimes mean that we have to be tolerant and insist on love, as love is more important than justice and righteousness. That's why the psalms say that in fact nobody is righteous before God. We can only be loving and go to Christ and act in his law. The conversion of true sinners can be very difficult, but we must remember that satan influences these people badly, even when they are not satanists really. We do not war with flesh and blood but with evil spirits and principalities. Christianity is not the world's police but instead should be an outpost of God's love. And love is patient. We must be a bit larger than sin and cover it with love. Jesus did the same with the whores and tax collectors that followed his call but may not always have been such good followers. Above all, love!
Suffering and pain are the consequences of being in an adverarial relationship with God.
My point in adressing "apo" in 2 Thess 1:9 is not that God is tormenting people, but that His presence is a torment to His adversaries. The light attacks the darkness by nature. Those who love darkness are discomfitted, ruined, destroyed by the Day. Their destruction is the ruination of the strongholds and fortresses that they have erected against the true(unveiled) knowledge of God- which is the manifestation of His divine nature.
Everyone loves to say, "I believe this"...." I believe that". So be it- we all may believe as we will. :o)
But it is profitable for a man or woman of God- a disciple of Jesus Christ -to reconcile their beliefs with the scriptures.
Does God inflict pain?
Loaded question. Some people present as if for God to inflict pain at all is the same as if Gd inflicts pain for the sake of pain.
Is pain the worst thing one can do to another?
Loaded question. To inflict pain to prevent destruction? To inflict pain to change direction?
Why would the Father allow the Son to endure so much pain? Why would the Son call us to pick up His cross and come follow Him?
The chaos of this world is all within God's ability to control and eradicate. The suffering in this world is all within God's ability to resolve- and He will.
But why does He wait?
Peter says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Or as Paul said, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive!
When? Each in his own order. How? When the knee bows and the tongue confesses- "Jesus Christ is Lord"
How did Jesus become Lord? Because He humbled Himself to the point of death on a cross.
How do we become His disciples. Taking His yoke upon us. Taking up His cross. Filling up His sufferings?
The world refuses this, so the world gets to experience it in other ways that are not according to their pleasure or their will.
It is mostly the result of reaping what they so, but God is not mocked. Sometimes He does inflict suffering, on you, on me, on the world.....
Chaos, futility, it is the furnace from within which the gold will be refined- the glorious liberty of the children of God, which is loving so much they will die for it.
One day the whole creation will have seen and embraced the beauty of this love.
Along the way there will be futility. And that futility, that chaos, that schoolroom- was not set up by man, or by the devil.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
We fret about the futility and miss the lessons of it. We pick at God for the jots and tittles and miss the grand design.
All will be redeemed. All will be reconciled. All will set free from futility.
How?
Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Some will suffer for righteousness and inherit a better resurrection. Some will suffer for unrighteousness. Some will suffer in this life. SOme in the next.
How?
Why try to define it? Jesus, Paul, James, the author of Hebrews, Peter- all have warned of the judgment to come.
Why? Because even tho God's plan is prepared t bring ALL into reconciliation, their is a reckoning for unrighteousness, and that reckoning stands until one bows the knee, in a broken and a contrite heart, and confesses from a humble and grateful heart, that Jesus Christ, in the love that He displayed upon the cross- is Lord of them- each one.
According to the scriptures there is an easy way on a narrow path and there is a hard way on a wide path.
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself
in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
.....for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. .......in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts
alternately accusing or else defending them, 16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.Some will stand accused, some will stand excused- in the mirror of their own conscience. I believe that image, for the accused, will cause torment until the knee is bowed, the acknowledgment made- and I believe many will resist that acknowedgment.
For whatever that span is- they will endure aionian kolassis in aionian pyr- or "olam esch" as a hebrew would put it.
The fire of His eyes, searching the innermost being until every hidden thing is brought to light- and it will hurt, according to Him, their is a consequence for refusing the grace offerred in mortal time, and a consequence for carrying one's rebellion into aionian time.
Paul agrees. James agrees. I agree. The scriptures agree in my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire.
Will we instruct James?
Did not James understand that it is a metaphor? OF COURSE, HE SAID, "
AS IT WERE FIRE"
But is a metaphor for a difficult experience to endure and one from which we WARN THE WICKED TO AMEND HIS WAY, because the message of redemtion is not the whole gospel.....
To proclaim the judgment to come is not judging in itself....
"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God." 1 Cor 4:5
This verse clearly shows that the nature of judgment is to reveal that which is hidden. The process of judgment is not always pleasant. Where there is no judgment/discernment/justice there is chaos, futility and suffering, according to God's design.
The Lordship of Jesus Christ involves the subjection of every adversary and death will not be anulled unti the last adversary is sujected. Death is the wage of sin. As long as there is death- somewhere sin is still found. The second death will be a dealing with sin. When death is destroyed there must therefore be NO MORE SIN.
All the adversaries will have been subjected, and God will be all in all(as I read it anyway). In the meantime, in this age and the one to come- there will still be sin, chaos, futility and judgment.
A tree of wickedness, watered and cultivated in the heart, will grow roots and tho it may be cut down in a moment, often the roots will require more pain of extrication and cling powerfully within the heart, and bring with them as they are pulled out- much substance of the ground in which they were sown.
Beware lest any root of bitterness spring up among you, by which many may be defiled.
Yes.....
How can light exist with darkness; how can the carnal exist in a spiritual realm, understanding the things of God, not with the intellect, but within each person, in the Spirit?
How can we rise with Christ, when we have not died with Him?
To be part of the body of Christ requires a oneness with Him and the body.....unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it remains alone.
We cannot share the glory, without sharing the pain. That is not love. If love is to never fail, then it must be there for the joy and the sorrow.
How can we enter Heaven, and yet, not know how to love?
Then Heaven will not be Heaven, but a repeat of the earth we knew.
How can we exist in the perfection of Heaven, if we cannot bear one another's burdens, before we get there?
The greater good is for God to cleanse us, so we can all know the joy of Heaven, for eternity, with Him.
Just as we let our children cry, if we stop them from danger, so our Father allows us pain and sorrow, in exchange for an eternity of joy.
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." John 3:3
D.
He told the disciples He had much more to tell them..but they could not bear it at present.
He showed in the parable of the prodigal's son return and the workers in the vineyard that the 'elder' sons would not take it well.
Just as the religious leaders in His day balked at the free forgiveness of the sins of the people under the law,so,too religious
leaders exhibit in christendom the same attitude against those that haven't repented and confessed on this side.
maybe it is hard to bear unjust stripes,pick up your cross.and be mocked.,spit on..and be crucified and be mocked....and still say
Father forgive them,they know not what they do? But if you follow Him,you must
He also said ...I judge no man..but these words I speak shall judge you on the last day
All who have been forgiven in this age have repented.
All who will be forgiven in the age to come will "bow the knee" and "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"
The question is not about God's forgiveness. God has forgiven all, but no one reaps the benefit of that until they see Christ crucified and submit to His love.
Forgiveness has been provided for ALL the adversaries, but until they come under the Lordship of Jesus, they are ruled by the god of this age, the lusts of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind etc.
Of course we love and forgive them. We are the messengers of reconciliation, as sheep led to slaughter all the day long.
The question is, if Jesus alluded to aionian kolassis in several places and Paul taught it, and Peter, and John revealed it in Revelation, by what scripture can one refute it?
Dont misunderstand me... I dont have a problem with someone who believes that everyone else will get a free pass at the great white throne, or that no one will be able to stand against His glory and every knee will bow instantly.
That is an opinion some folks hold. I think it is an error, but only time will tell for sure.
What I have a problem with is when someone teaches it as if they have a "special revelation" that transcends the scriptures. Because the scriptures definitely have many references to aionian kolassis.
To me, the only acceptable way to teach otherwise is to provides scriptures that show that what Jesus taught in Matthew 25 and what John said in Rev 14:10 does not apply to the Great White Throne judgment and beyond.
No one is doing that that I can see, so I will continue to disagree with both that conclusion and the method in which it is being presented--- that of a philosophical argument, or some "deeper revelation".
I believe the judgment to come will be difficult for many persisently wicked and predatory evil doers and the fire of His love w2ill be a torment to them until they repent before it and that that will take some different measures of experience depending upon their hardness of heart. Thats my opinion.
It is not my opinion that Jesus and Paul and John taught tht the judgment to come would be fearful for the wicked. That is a fact.
Believers, at least believers like me, need to see that the scriptures support whatever theories we, as universalists present- not just "oh these are deeper things you maybe are not ready for yet".
One big objection I have is that since death is the last adversary to be subjected, if God instantly becomes all in all at the GWT, the whole reference to the lake of fire in Rev 20 would be irrevelant and unnecessary. As would all other references to aionian pyr and aionian kolassis and the judgment to come, along with any warnings to repent in anticipation of it.
But there are many such references, including, "Blessed and holy are those who partake in the first ressurection, for the second death will have no power over them"
I think reducing all those warnings to the status of allegory simply disrespects the scriptures at a level where all becomes allegory, nothing has any authority, beyond the revelations of each individual.
THE PRODIGAL SON
The prodigal son repented. He humbled himself and returned as a servant on bended knee. The self-righteous son FAILED TO ACCEPT THE FATHER'S decision- but the Father recieved the son back because he had been "dead"(in rebellion and selfishness) but was now "alive"(in the humility of repentence).
There is no reconciliation without repentence.
The method of that humility may be disputable. The fact of it is not.
"Men and brethren what must we do?" Let everyone of you repent....."
Repenting is not coming under law, it is coming into the love of the Lord Jesus. Coming into one's right mind- as the prodigal did, and returning home, to serve, to wash one another's feet, to live in a community within the love of God.
The crystal sea before the throne is peace(reconciliation) the canopy over it is love(union and communion) the Door to the sheepfold is the cross(death to self) and the resurrection comes through the burial of the old man, so we must throw a couple shovels full of dirt on ourselves- "If anyone will be my disciple".....
I think the judgment to come will be more like birthpangs that stripes of a whip. Even as we presently hav these birthpangs as His image is formed in us, so will the adversaries of Christ in the ages to come- because it is all about transformation, not arbitrary punishment or leveling acounts.
Transformation can be painful and of varying duration according to the characteristics of individuals.
IMO that is what we ought to teach about judgment in the age to come(because that is what I see in the scriptures).
Not that it doesnt exist- but that whatever it is, it transforms.
I dont believe in teaching that there will be no judgment at all, because if there is no aionian pyr or aionian kolassis, then there is a whole bunch of words attributed to Jesus and the apostles that are basically meaningless... But I offer that as my opinion based on the scriptures.
As for anyone's "special revelation" or deeper revelation that does not require scripture for confirmation. I reject that completely, and I believe that method of presentation undercuts the validity biblical universalism in general.
:iagree:
I didn't say there was no judgement..I shared God's judgement...THE PRINCE of this world is judged that his works are wicked=satan
God's judgement after the tabernacle pattern= last act of HIGH PREIST=put all sin on Azazael's head. Judgement of Babylon=destruction
blood of all mankind/she is a female counterpart spirit that permeates the whole earth=sex maddness,idolatry,wars etc.
He tells us her judgement also in Revelations.
all mankind will enter Christ's body...given corrective doctrines...and there will no longer be an 'evil' contrast[cananite] in His house.
the whole world see's Him comeing in judgement/discerning the times..and when some-one speaks it...they can't hear it.
why do we not believe that He took all the sins away at the cross....why do we put the stripes He bore...and the cross and
put them back on men?TRUST/FAITH......why do we put men in the LOF with His judgement of satan and his angels[demons]
earth ripe for harvest..the sythe in His hand....reaping the spirits of men into His heavenly kingdom...and the chaff/straw weeds burned
weeds=the evil seed the enemy sowed=demons...the good seed God sowed in His image and likeness[see His statement..'it is good'
they're myriad scriptures...destroy this temple...and on the third day I will raise it up...men's bodies are stolen temple vessels..babylon
spirit drinks from them...idolaltry/immorality...and He reveals His judgement of her.....man of sin/satan and demons possesing His
vessels[man created for His spirit to dwell in} Will lose what they thought they had.....all the plagues,bowls etc worked against
the Prince of this world.to let my people go.
eternal correction=negative contrast destroyed...children in the Holy city/MT ZION/Jerusalem Above taught of Him without interference
then the spirits can become 'JUST" as to understanding His judgements..and become perfect in understanding.Total clarity as to
how He has kept us ALL spotless and blamless and free of any accusation of sin.
judging by appearance...we look at mankind and we 'see' sin...so we become confused...how did He take away all sin...when I see sin
running rampant in the earth? He too,will reveal how He kept us as 'virgins" of virgin daughter Babylon..how can a whore be a virgin?
if the inner spirit is virgin and outer vessel has the image/likeness/spirit of a whore..dwelling in it is how.
I invite you all to go to Him in prayer and ask Him about what I have shared with you....please..... :HeartThrob:
He is doing a SAUL/PAUL work...Paul likened himself as one born prematurely[the ploughman overtaking the reaper]
Saul's on the road to Dam[as] cu[r]s those whose sin have been atoned for/forgiven will have an expierence on that road.
there is a deaf and mute spirit..of which the disciple's were unable to cast out. it is know to seize 'son and cast them down in
water and fire to try and kill them. pray for those wh suffer this 'seizeure" of this spirit that thinks it is equal to God.
Jesus told the disciples this kind come out only by prayer and fasting[the fast He approves is quit pointing the finger...etc= fast from
demonic doctrins]
"Why do we not believe he took all sin away at the cross?"
Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit? If Jesus took all their sin away at the cross, shouldn't Peter have said, "you lied, but Jesus took away all your sin, so have a good day." Why should God send strong delusion to anyone? Why should Jerusalem have been judged in 70 AD when Christ already dealt with their sin by that time?
Obviously, there is something about what he did on the cross that still allows him to judge mankind literally, not just in types and shadows. I believe it has to do with the fact that the cross is realized in the earth as the death of the flesh. That we must all die on the cross through repentance, amd God's judgments pave the way for repentance.
It seems arbitrary to say that God will judge in this life post-Cross but not in the next one and the only reason being because he died on the cross for them. And that he loves them and forgives them. Believing in judgement after resurrection doesn't deny the cross any more than acknowledging judgment in this life denies it.
you left a very important piece out of the Annais and Sapphira example...namely satan/the Prince of this world who is judged.....
God's anger is not directed specifically at man...GRACE AND FREE GIFT OF LIFE to man. But..if we are joined to demons we may
get our vessel[flesh body] cracked when He deals with the demon.Their spirit returned to God...their flesh body with sin in it to the dust.
offspring of vipers sitting on religious leaders had those people in Jerusalem believing them...and they didn't leave when they saw
Jerusalem surrounded by armies because of it......and were starved out..........their spirit returned unto God and their flesh,too,was
was thrown into the valley..and returned unto dust
Moses..exasperated.into disobedience..satan argued he had the right to enter his body...before Father allowed that,he had Moses die
and his spirit return unto God.
Jesus come to 'break up" the works of the devil.......rod of iron to the potters vessel[our clay vessels] the spirit returns to God and
the vessel to dust..and satan finds another[seeking who he may devour]
Moses serpent turned into a bigger serpent and devoured the Eyptians serpent.......him who destroys God's temple..God will destroy.
Peter said to Ananias, YOU lied to the Holy Spirit, not "Satan lied through you, so, sorry you have to die so God can get at Satan." People are judged for what they do. Ananias and Sapphira were judged for what THEY did.
Again, if you acknowledge God's judgment after the cross in this life, there's no conflict between judgment and the cross in the next life either.
when He comes to reap the earth....the offspring of viper spirits are going to be on the run. These possesing men of sin will say
to the rocks" hide us from the wrath of the Lamb." Since man are little peices of the ROCK..your flesh is where they will seek to hide.
the caves and clefts of your flesh. The end of all flesh is come.
Not sure how that address the point I made but I don't believe that people have to be demon possessed to sin. They may be influenced, but that doesn't mean that God is hold demons solely responsible. The NT is really clear on this point. People are judged for what they do.
those negative thoughts that just 'appear' in our mind..that we have to bring into subjection to Christ? where do you think they come from?
our imagination or 'wicked image inations? the filthy images on the wall of the temple? that wall is your mind..and they project their
thoughts on it.
ps..already wrote the post before reading yours,Seth
I don't think those thoughts come from demon possession. I think they ar the result of us being human and wanting to please ourselves.
Satan is judged for the 'wicked works' he did in the body of man. sin entered through one man....sin is a demon crouched at the door,
he desire to rule over you..but you must rule over him. they can drive men insane/animals too! we will be seeing a lot more people
"loosing it" many are on the edge now,hanging on by a thread.
I don't believe that sin is a literal demon. I believe that sin is abstract and demons are literal beings.
mankind is so used to being captive to sin..it seems 'normal". what GREAT FREEDOM and LIBERTY will be ours when they are gone
the law was written to them[lawless ones] to restrain their evil works in men...and educate men to discern their negative imput.
I'm sorry, Sheila, I just can't agree that demon possession is the cause of sin. We may just need to agree to disagree on that.
Quote from: Seth on August 21, 2016, 03:12:09 AM
"Why do we not believe he took all sin away at the cross?"
Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit? If Jesus took all their sin away at the cross, shouldn't Peter have said, "you lied, but Jesus took away all your sin, so have a good day." Why should God send strong delusion to anyone? Why should Jerusalem have been judged in 70 AD when Christ already dealt with their sin by that time?
Obviously, there is something about what he did on the cross that still allows him to judge mankind literally, not just in types and shadows. I believe it has to do with the fact that the cross is realized in the earth as the death of the flesh. That we must all die on the cross through repentance, amd God's judgments pave the way for repentance.
Well, Jesus IS the Savior of the world...Jesus brought even the worst of the Christ deniers, ' But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.' 2 Peter 2:1. through His sacrifice, Jesus has dealt with the sins of these wicked heretics, but note they will still suffer 'swift destruction', as judgement ?..or as a consequence of their rebellion...either way, Peter tells us that even these wicked heretical sinners were brought and paid for by Jesus work on the cross !.Praise God!..nobody is 'too far gone' that they cannot be redeemed with Jesus blood. :dsunny: :banana:
Of course. I hope my words were clear that I am not saying Jesus is NOT the savior of the world. Why would I be here if I thought that, right? :laughing7: But that, because Christ died on the cross for them doesn't mean there is not judgment for those who trample the Son of God underfoot. And if there is judgment in this life, it doesn't deny the cross to believe there is judgment in the next.
Quote from: sheila on August 21, 2016, 01:38:46 AM
why do we not believe that He took all the sins away at the cross....why do we put the stripes He bore...and the cross and
put them back on men?TRUST/FAITH......why do we put men in the LOF with His judgement of satan and his angels[demons]
"we" dont put anyone anywhere. I believe Jesus took the sins of the whole world on Him at the cross. So.
Why do we see anything other than immediate universal reconciliation? Why is there any waiting at all?
But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. (Ro 8)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but
everyone to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3)
Everyone will come to repentance. Every knee shall bow. Every adversary will be subjected. Every repentant heart reconciled. An administration suitable to the fulness of times- the gathering of all into one in Christ.
The devil and the demons could possibly be the only ones cast into the lak of fire if Rev 20 was all there was in the scriptures concerning it but what about Matthew 25:41 and Rev 14:10? What of the saying "Blessed and holy are those who partake in the first resurrection, over them the second death has no power?"
These scriptures do not speak to angels and demons. They speak to men and women. Overcomers. Hypocrites. Those who receive the mark. Those who do not, etc.
Post mortem, post GWT, Pre All-in all, imo.
But again, this is not literal fire. It is the light driving out the darkness, the fire purging out impurity, the revelation of Christ crucified driving out selfishness and arrogance, until the knee bows and the heart is washed.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2016, 09:02:33 PM
THE PRODIGAL SON
The prodigal son repented. He humbled himself and returned as a servant on bended knee. The self-righteous son FAILED TO ACCEPT THE FATHER'S decision- but the Father recieved the son back because he had been "dead"(in rebellion and selfishness) but was now "alive"(in the humility of repentence).
There is no reconciliation without repentence.
The method of that humility may be disputable. The fact of it is not.
"Men and brethren what must we do?" Let everyone of you repent....."
Repenting is not coming under law, it is coming into the love of the Lord Jesus. Coming into one's right mind- as the prodigal did, and returning home, to serve, to wash one another's feet, to live in a community within the love of God.
The crystal sea before the throne is peace(reconciliation) the canopy over it is love(union and communion) the Door to the sheepfold is the cross(death to self) and the resurrection comes through the burial of the old man, so we must throw a couple shovels full of dirt on ourselves- "If anyone will be my disciple".....
I think the judgment to come will be more like birthpangs that stripes of a whip. Even as we presently hav these birthpangs as His image is formed in us, so will the adversaries of Christ in the ages to come- because it is all about transformation, not arbitrary punishment or leveling acounts.
Transformation can be painful and of varying duration according to the characteristics of individuals.
IMO that is what we ought to teach about judgment in the age to come(because that is what I see in the scriptures).
Not that it doesnt exist- but that whatever it is, it transforms.
Transformation.....a key word. :iagree:
D.
the real vessels of wrath fitted for destruction is satan and his evil spirits....the vessels fitted for mercy are mankind...my people
are sheep being led to the slaughter. God chose the 'weak'/flesh is weak and foolish[man easily fooled]..in order to put the
'wise/serpent' to shame. He delivers us from our enemy that is stronger than us....by my spirit.
thus He 'fit's' man for mercy.....
all men expierence the 'first' resurrection...as what was sown in weakness is raised up in power...and the 'secound' resurrection
is for the evil spirits only..as they come forth from the abyss to cover the earth[man's vessel of clay...again...this is also shown in
parabolic form of the beast that received the death blow and come up out of the earth...that spirit does not return unto God like man's.
for it is resurrected up out of the sea/ under the earth/ out of the abyss onto the earth...where it goes forth in opposition to God.
it is appointed unto all men to die once..then the resurrection.......now the certain men that slipped in unawares..that teaches as a false
religious spirit makes judgement falsely unto man as two-fold the child of hell. Father says 'I will not leave you entirely unpunished...."
but with great mercy He restores man unto Himself. Prodigal's returning unto the Father always say....I am unworthy to be called your
son/ and recieve it as a gift. Just as all men have bore the image of the corrupt[serpent in our flesh] so,too shall all men bear the image
of the incorrupt. man does not bear the image of the corrupt more than once...that the corrupt image die once is enough/for this
reason in the new heaven and earth..there is no image of the corrupt/no harm on all His Holy mountain.
This sounds similar to the Serpent Seed doctrine, which I don't believe in. Again, the NT is very clear that people themselves are judged for what they do, without reference to demon possession. If Seth goes out an murders innocent people, Seth will be judged for it. If Seth tramples the Son of God underfoot, Seth will be judged for it.
When you quoted Hebrews, you said, "it is appointed once for man to die, and after this resurrection."
It actually says, "it is appointed once for man to die, and after this, judgment." Judgment for some would be the second death, which will humble and cause repentance. That's why it says that Jesus will appear a second time unto salvation "for those who await him."
Quote from: Seth on August 21, 2016, 07:18:05 PM
This sounds similar to the Serpent Seed doctrine, which I don't believe in. Again, the NT is very clear that people themselves are judged for what they do, without reference to demon possession. If Seth goes out an murders innocent people, Seth will be judged for it. If Seth tramples the Son of God underfoot, Seth will be judged for it.
When you quoted Hebrews, you said, "it is appointed once for man to die, and after this resurrection."
It actually says, "it is appointed once for man to die, and after this, judgment." Judgment for some would be the second death, which will humble and cause repentance. That's why it says that Jesus will appear a second time unto salvation "for those who await him."
yes, I like this..good point !. 'so the Christ also, having been once offered in sacrifice in order that He might bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, separated from sin, to those who are eagerly expecting Him, to make their salvation complete'.Hebrews 9 :28. in the next age, Jesus will appear to those formerly without but who are now eagerly expecting Him in order to complete their salvation...utterly marvelous. Praise God !. :banana: :dsunny: :banana: :dsunny:
no....never heard of serpent seed doctrine......I am making a seperate post on the Secound coming it's lengthy
Quote from: Seth on August 21, 2016, 05:22:38 AM
I don't think those thoughts come from demon possession. I think they ar the result of us being human and wanting to please ourselves.
:thumbsup:
2 Thessalonians 1:8, Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
This we know (?) is His return... it is end of this age, and just prior to His millennium, yes? It is not end of judgment day when those not believing will be sent into the lake of fire, the second dying.. (right?) As judgment 'day' follows not only His return, but His 1000 year millennium reign..
[ ET doctrine, it seems to me, doesn't discern the difference, but seem (imo) to believe ppl are sent into the lake of fire, the 2nd dying, at His return when He ushers in His millennial rule (or at their death).]
...with His angels and in flaming fire..
Obadiah 15, New International Version (NIV)
15 "The day of the Lord is near
for all nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you;
your deeds will return upon your own head.
...the "wages" of sin... without Him we are destroyed.. individual and collective.. It may hurt as it is occurring.. but it has a far surpassing weight of glory, in that it is a foundation lesson aLL must learn.. otherwise, there can be no paradise/kingdom/perfection.. ( ? :dontknow: )
Quote from: Seth on August 21, 2016, 07:18:05 PM
This sounds similar to the Serpent Seed doctrine, which I don't believe in. Again, the NT is very clear that people themselves are judged for what they do, without reference to demon possession. If Seth goes out an murders innocent people, Seth will be judged for it. If Seth tramples the Son of God underfoot, Seth will be judged for it.
When you quoted Hebrews, you said, "it is appointed once for man to die, and after this resurrection."
It actually says, "it is appointed once for man to die, and after this, judgment." Judgment for some would be the second death, which will humble and cause repentance. That's why it says that Jesus will appear a second time unto salvation "for those who await him."
One thing I have never understood about the Serpent Seed doctrine (sorry to get off topic): How did Cain's descendants survive the flood? It makes even less sense when put in that light.
Amen!! :thumbsup:
Amen , Looked it up the silly serpent seed doctrine is not biblically sound , many flaws :sigh:
I believe it is from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ..... that good & evil comes forth .
God told Adam in the DAY you eat you shall surly die ,,, To be carnally minded is death , carnal is animal like and a sure
mark of the beast is carnal mind /disobedience to the Father and slaves to sin , and the absolute need to have the mind of Christ obedience to the Father .
Pretty cut and dry , really , Nature teaches us about all the different animal like behaviors , a lamb is a good nature easy to tame , weak and needy and easy prey and goat cannot be tamed to stubborn and hard headed and are hard to keep in a fenced in area . kind of on the wild side
Strong's G4559 - sarkikos
σαρκικός
Transliteration
sarkikos
Pronunciation
sär-kē-ko's (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
From σάρξ (G4561)
TDNT Reference
7:98,1000
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
fleshly, carnal
having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
human: with the included idea of depravity
pertaining to the flesh
to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
Maybe as Universal Reconciliation people we should look forward more to Apokatastasis, the bringing back of all things, instead of to a terrible Day of the Lord. The bible writers are divided about it, some say don't look for a Day of the Lord because it would mean trouble for all people, at other places they actually say we should hasten Christ's coming.
I have read that the real Day of the Lord happened on Good Friday when Christ was crucified. And the real refinement is, God took the suffering of the Day of the Lord on himself, and forgave everyone on the cross. That's the power of God, turning something that was death and pain for HIM into a blessing for other people, because Christ saw his crucifixion as a love sacrifice for mankind. In the law in the regulation of sacrifices, there were no love sacrifices. There were lot's of different kinds, but not such. It was a duty to perform sacrifices, not a giving of God. But in Christ God gives Himself to us and ends the rule of the law of sin and death.
Hi Daniel A-N ..
THE DAY of the Lord is the beginning of true spiritual wisdom from the Spirit of truth by prophecy above in my own opinion .
The DAY OF THE LORD is darkness and not light but many clouds /witnesses ..
In Abraham's day he saw it and was glad .
John 8 Berean Study Bible
Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.
"Hebrews 11:13
All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
What Did Abraham did see in the DAY is that the Lord dealt with him on a personal level .
fear come upon abram Gen 15 12 God Confirms His Promise
...11The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away.
12Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. 13God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years....
The promises of God is the Spirit of prophecy and the foretelling it shall come by faith believing it will come to pass
The Day of the Lord
...13"Moreover, their wealth will become plunder And their houses desolate; Yes, they will build houses but not inhabit them, And plant vineyards but not drink their wine." 14Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD!
In it the warrior cries out bitterly. 15A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness,...
New American Standard Bible
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?"
Isaiah 8:22
Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.
Jeremiah 30:7
'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress, But he will be saved from it.
Ezekiel 7:7
'Your doom has come to you, O inhabitant of the land. The time has come, the day is near-- tumult rather than joyful shouting on the mountains.
Ezekiel 7:12
'The time has come, the day has arrived. Let not the buyer rejoice nor the seller mourn; for wrath is against all their multitude.
Ezekiel 7:16
'Even when their survivors escape, they will be on the mountains like doves of the valleys, all of them mourning, each over his own iniquity.
Ezekiel 12:23
"Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision.
Ezekiel 30:3
"For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, A time of doom for the nations.
Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Joel 2:1
Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,
Treasury of Scripture
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hastens greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
great.
Zephaniah 1:7 Hold your peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the ...
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even ...
Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; ...
Joel 2:1,11,31 Blow you the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: ...
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the ...
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before ...
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
it is.
Ezekiel 7:6,7,12 An end is come, the end is come: it watches for you; behold, it is come...
Ezekiel 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus said the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb ...
Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what see you? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. ...
Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brothers, lest you be condemned: ...
2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise ...
even.
Zephaniah 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, said the LORD, that there ...
Isaiah 22:4,5 Therefore said I, Look away from me; I will weep bitterly, labor ...
Isaiah 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice ...
Jeremiah 25:36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal ...
Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp ...
Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; ...
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with ...
Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, ...
the mighty.
Isaiah 15:4 And Heshbon shall cry, and Elealeh: their voice shall be heard even ...
Isaiah 33:7 Behold, their valiant ones shall cry without: the ambassadors of ...
Jeremiah 48:41 Kerioth is taken, and the strong holds are surprised...
Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, ...
I personally think it is not all finished yet for me , every generation gets more Light and knowledge of THIS DAY , BY THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST BEING THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY and are being revealed in many witnesses with His testimony by this same faith given by the FATHER HIMSELF , AS EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD and many things are YET to be fulfilled and yet are done and are in this day to know and understand By the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND WORD OF TRUTH BOTH WITNESSES found poured out in our flesh and taken root
Growing in Spirit and truth by Gods grace , allowing us to Know by the LIGHT and not leave us in the darkness /ignorance of what He is doing ..
Quote from: Seth on August 21, 2016, 03:12:09 AM
"Why do we not believe he took all sin away at the cross?"
Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit? If Jesus took all their sin away at the cross, shouldn't Peter have said, "you lied, but Jesus took away all your sin, so have a good day." Why should God send strong delusion to anyone? Why should Jerusalem have been judged in 70 AD when Christ already dealt with their sin by that time?
Obviously, there is something about what he did on the cross that still allows him to judge mankind literally, not just in types and shadows. I believe it has to do with the fact that the cross is realized in the earth as the death of the flesh. That we must all die on the cross through repentance, amd God's judgments pave the way for repentance.
..I'm trying to find a richer deeper experience of God, not one based on fear and terror of Him but one based on His deep and abiding love for His creation...if He truly loves ALL people we should love them too...if He will forgive ALL people we should forgive them too...if He accepted ALL people when He was here, in the form of a man, on earth we should accept ALL too and not look down on ANYBODY...its all about LOVE
A relationship with God is based on who he really is. He is Love, but love is not always benign. Discipline is also love, and a father who does not discipline his son does not love Him. Love protects the innocent from predators, even when it loves the predator. All these questions are quite complex. Simple answers are what most people like but they are often not really answers, they are suppositions and presumptions based in our own idea of what God is and Who, but then... Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor?
While the believer has no need for terror in the presence of the Lord, the wicked sometimes do, Just as for a time the Law was given as a restraint and a tutor for children(in understanding), the fear of the Lord is still in effect(imo), and serves a purpose, albeit temporary in nature.
"When that which is perfect is come that which is imperfect will be done away"
I totally Agree with you Eagleway/ John ,
Good to see you posting bro , hope all is well with you .
Seeing this older post is a blessing , Thanks Darryl :thumbsup: ,
I believe the evil come through the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and its seeds [evil being present as a constant reminder of sin that leads to death ] and not to eat of this tree ever again once the tree of Life is come but being completed in Christ [taste not , handle not touch not ] shrinking back from grace and to that old law of both natures warring against each other .
Not the serpent , he was only the tempter and confuser and accuser before God night and day and allowed to teach us that Sin is not ever a good thing and always results in death as a end .
this is the mind of the beast , carnal in nature that always results in death thinking ]leading to the broad path that
brings with it destruction [corruption ] and experiencing death results to me , Showing no mercy and receiving no mercy as the process of reaping what you have sown = evil seeds that good might come , Paul said, No way !
The mind of Christ is the narrow path way of escape , that leads to Life , that God made and escape for sin and error and missing the mark of the higher calling to rise up out of death and be with Him whom is the Life now and always .
Learning this knowledge and given understanding of God does raise a lot of complex questions .
Quote from: eaglesway on September 12, 2017, 05:08:41 AM
A relationship with God is based on who he really is. He is Love, but love is not always benign. Discipline is also love, and a father who does not discipline his son does not love Him. Love protects the innocent from predators, even when it loves the predator. All these questions are quite complex. Simple answers are what most people like but they are often not really answers, they are suppositions and presumptions based in our own idea of what God is and Who, but then... Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor?
While the believer has no need for terror in the presence of the Lord, the wicked sometimes do, Just as for a time the Law was given as a restraint and a tutor for children(in understanding), the fear of the Lord is still in effect(imo), and serves a purpose, albeit temporary in nature.
"When that which is perfect is come that which is imperfect will be done away"
Trying to read the bible carnally , which is a natural condition that we all posses first , till we are born again of the Holy Spirit , evokes a fear of God we do not understand yet ,darkness cannot comprehend the Light , the Light has come as being born again of the tree of Life [Word of Life ] as being babes in Christ our protector for sure .
Darkness and death is still reigning within , Till the law comes ,[tree of knowledge of good and evil ], Paul explains this condition in Romans 7 well..and very helpful in understanding the process and though experiences .
He was alive without the law once and when the law of sin came and he died , knowing that the sin nature results in death .
But His new mind [ mind of Christ ] was spiritual in nature and desired to please God .
Yet he went on to explain he was still undergoing a body of death where sin was still residing in him.
and waiting on deliverance of the Lord Jesus Christ completely [perfectly ] in Romans 8 .
Being disciplined in our new nature , has the desire NOT TO SIN against GOD by His Word cleansing our conscience and also comforted by the Holy Spirit our new teacher .
Our minds are changing , true repentance and begin experiencing the things of knowing God ,that were hidden from out natural eyes .
This important relationship in the Lord Jesus Christ, begins to experience the power of God's Love in your own life as we begin trusting in Him more effectively as He supplies the every need .
We begin to call upon the name of the Lord for help and a away of escape in the cruel world that does not know God or His loving saving grace .
I am convinced Jesus told us , this is making the tree good and it fruit good [ good seeds from that tree ] a tree is known by its fruit , sowing the good seeds , doing good and making the tree good so the perfecting in Christ continues ,
Just as Paul spoke of sowing the good seed and Apollos watered having those good seeds [Word of God incorruptible ] growing in truth and grace in him also .and anyone whom was hearing this WORD would faith come by eating the good fruit of your doings by the grace of God examples .
Quote Rosered:
Quote
Trying to read the bible carnally , which is a natural condition that we all posses first , till we are born again of the Holy Spirit , evokes a fear of God we do not understand..
:doh: That's what that was! I never realized or thought of that before! But so true! Very logical!
And other good and interesting posts in this thread.
Lately, i've been getting what seems to be to be some confirmations on ideas concerning the Word.. I have been praying about things I believe i've learned here alone with God's Word and what I've always hoped is His Spirit.. I can be pretty convinced of things once I think i've an answer or perception.
Today it was at the very end of a documentary I was watching with my husband. Now usually I don't watch a lot of tv, but in the room with my husband doing something and maybe half watching at times. Well this show I was engrossed in, and what should be the very last line of the show? "Nature follows its course." I noticed it and present was that feeling of communication.. I'm sure everyone knows that feeling.. but one of the things I repeat - a lot, is how God is, and has to, let things (imperfection/wandering) run their course. Why? To prove the truth. To all. On earth and in heaven.
It will one day seem like but a moment this letting the broad way to run its course.. this building on sand rather than the Rock.. to run its full course. Our / the world's foolishness will seem like but a moment compared to His glorious eternal Kingdom of peace, joy and beauty. But the lesson will not be forgotten.. in the mystery of metaphor, the smoke of it shall rise up forever and ever (ages to ages). The smoke of man or angel empire crashing shall never be forgotten that none can ever be God (ruler, higher/highest power) but God Almighty (who is Life).
We are not yet fuLLy perfected (fuLLy reconciled?) "until His return" and those not yet saved before their death, at the making of ALL things new when Jesus hands the Kingdom over to the Father.. and the Father says behold the tabernacle of God shall be with msnkind and God Himself will now tabernacle with msnkind on Earth made new.. ina universe made new! I have to wonder just HOW glorious it shall all be!
Well, I'm not sure what I've even been writing.. why am I on this tiny phone screen, punching all the wrong tiny letters? :laughing7: sorry this 'grannie' better go to
ed! bed!
:thumbsup: Its so true Marie !
I was terrified of UR , thinking this cannot be true . My first concerns was to tread lightly , and of course question everything !
Because carnally applied [death mode ] it did not seem logical , true .
But it came to me eventually after much prayer and much reading and seeking the Lords face and these discussions on Tentmaker as well as the old Kingdomtalk forum before the owner passed over to ask the elders seasoned in much Word and Spirit and the Comforter come and blessed us all ,many times over ..
That this carnal mind was an enemy against the Spirit of Life , no wonder the battle was so difficult :eek:
But LOVE / GOD wins though Jesus Christ victory and His cross . :HeartThrob:
Blessings sister :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Dandelion on August 21, 2016, 04:39:52 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2016, 09:02:33 PM
THE PRODIGAL SON
The prodigal son repented. He humbled himself and returned as a servant on bended knee. The self-righteous son FAILED TO ACCEPT THE FATHER'S decision- but the Father recieved the son back because he had been "dead"(in rebellion and selfishness) but was now "alive"(in the humility of repentence).
There is no reconciliation without repentence.
The method of that humility may be disputable. The fact of it is not.
"Men and brethren what must we do?" Let everyone of you repent....."
Repenting is not coming under law, it is coming into the love of the Lord Jesus. Coming into one's right mind- as the prodigal did, and returning home, to serve, to wash one another's feet, to live in a community within the love of God.
The crystal sea before the throne is peace(reconciliation) the canopy over it is love(union and communion) the Door to the sheepfold is the cross(death to self) and the resurrection comes through the burial of the old man, so we must throw a couple shovels full of dirt on ourselves- "If anyone will be my disciple".....
I think the judgment to come will be more like birthpangs that stripes of a whip. Even as we presently hav these birthpangs as His image is formed in us, so will the adversaries of Christ in the ages to come- because it is all about transformation, not arbitrary punishment or leveling acounts.
Transformation can be painful and of varying duration according to the characteristics of individuals.
IMO that is what we ought to teach about judgment in the age to come(because that is what I see in the scriptures).
Not that it doesnt exist- but that whatever it is, it transforms.
Transformation.....a key word. :iagree:
D.
Amen!!!