So the Biblical proof there is no hell?

[marie glen]

Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.

Yes.. isn't it just so sad how Yahweh is unable to save so many...  :laughing7: what kind of 'logic' is thAt!? What's actually sad is any believer suffering under such a delusion.. how truly sad..

[darryl]

how could a loving God fry people, burn them alive...torture human beings...forever ?....I say this to  King James Version fundamentalist Christians who believe in eternal punishment...its the religion of fear...God is LOVE...not hate.Jesus saves ALL, ultimately.Jesus IS the Savior of the World. :dsunny: :banana: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[chester-blowfold]

Darryl, Apparently it's justified if you don't believe in needing to go through Jesus to get to God.
mind they never actually explain how a God of justice would come up with a plan like that particularly as no one ever asks to born. So to be born in a KJV readers eyes is to be punished forever if you disagree with them......yep, that sure sounds like justice to me.

[chester-blowfold]

Is this on this site? I searched but couldn't find it.

https://www.godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm

[darryl]

Darryl, Apparently it's justified if you don't believe in needing to go through Jesus to get to God.
mind they never actually explain how a God of justice would come up with a plan like that particularly as no one ever asks to born. So to be born in a KJV readers eyes is to be punished forever if you disagree with them......yep, that sure sounds like justice to me.

I  believe in needing to get thru Jesus to get to God BUT I believe ALL will ultimately accept Christ...whether in this age or the next , and ALL will come to the Father thru Jesus !..but you're right..nobody asks to be born..faced with the choice of being tortured forever or never being born in the first place , I'm sure many people would have chosen to never being born.

[CST]

MATTHEW 7: 13-14  Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it.   But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it

Any idea if this is just a miss translation?

The word translated here as "hell" is -
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
ruin or loss, destruction

from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/MATTHEW%207:%2013-14 and http://studybible.info/strongs/G684

My KJV, which I think of as the SHT (Standard Hell Text)

   :laughing7: ...can't help but laugh.. :smile:

Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.

   :Chinscratch: interesting.. something to ponder.. no gate to the lake..

"gate to hell" -- gate to "ruin, loss, destruction" is wide.. (the direction away from God..?) and narrow the gate to life.. (one way, toward God :smile: narrower.. but ultimately wide, once in the gate?.. spacious green pastures..)

You're joking! If the word in Chester's translation that is being translated 'Hell' is actually the word for 'destruction' and neither of the common New Testament 'Hell' words either Gehenna or Hades (I was only using all three because I didn't know which it was) then there's actually nothing to ponder. What I said was meaningless and what Rose said was meaningless because it was based on an incorrect understanding of the text. There's no point me talking about the Lake of Fire or Rose arguing from Jame's use of Gehenna is those terms aren't involved. I suppose I kind of knew that but was led by the translation as given.

So, that's my bad then. I missed the meaning of the primary posts. Of course it's also possible the text Chester is using is not a mistranslation but simply a correct translation of an alternate version of Matthew which he has got. Oh no, I checked. He appears to be using the New Lying Translation. I should have known they love taking unjustified liberties like that.

I believe if you  learn to  trust God   and this IS a  learning experience    by all our trials  of faith [a substance being  the    Gift of God ]

  as to being exercised with ,  it is useless   buried in our earthly bodies   with out any   trials  of faith , hope is lost and we are lost without the HOPE being made alive  within us  , we just simply learn   /lean on our own understanding    and  remain   "trapped in a spiritual prison  "    same as those Jesus come  a preached to

While in the heart of the  earth for 3 days    [ this HELL]     and still listening to the letter of the law  that kills     as you continue to kill and BE KILLED  ,,,  Under the law of mankind[son of man ]      Moses and the prophets   , these   were always  "chosen "  and  sent  and were killed and mistreated   and treated with  contempt  , Although they had been sent  and was messengers  with    warnings  of the things to  come   upon mankind  , having the Spirit of   TRUTH [Spirit of prophecy in them ....
  Those voices below , still under the ministration of death   ,  that remains earthly sensual and devilish , still accusing     and not   made whole yet ...  none were  made perfect   in their day  without us
They are now  , for sure ...


The law  and prophets  represent   the TRUE   WORD SPOKEN ,  in the day  ,  Being    the seven thunders whom utter their voices   under the song of Moses [sent first ]
and now with the Song of the Lamb  also  , From Heaven[ HEAR MY SON ] last  , they are in the Body of Christ [ the anointing ]  HOLY SPIRIT    AND FIRE

What Jesus come to do was take  the fear of  death away    and this finished work of the cross , giving us the mind of Christ  BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIFE ,and HIS TESTIMONY   / WORD  OF LIFE   which is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, teaching us   everything   !!! This body of work   protects us from the evil one   in our minds   , by giving us His own   mind , obedience to the Will of God   the FATHER   and  the Holy Spirit is what convicts us of sin ,   being cast down to our earth [bodies [  Romans  6 , 7  8 . Paul expounds on this  perfectly   ,      But   woe unto the earth   and the devil has come down to  you ...  our weak   flesh  ,  what is the work of the   satan  ,  this adversary     cast out of heaven   ?     And now working in our  mortal bodies    for the utter  destruction of our flesh ?

  To tempt us to sin  ,    and now live lavishly   , thinking we have overcome    the world  / darkness    , but now our faith  is  really put to the test !!    We See Jesus    being  sent  to the wilderness  by the HOLY SPIRIT   and overcoming    satan by the WORD OF HIS TESTIMONY   ,by the SPIRIT OF GOD    that   that is how it is done    , by the narrow path that leads to Life   being  able  follow  His exact footsteps having this working within  you till the end     ...    But   many will go into  spiritual  captivity  , Babylon[satan's throne  is ]   instead     and be   sent to the broad path that leads to destruction   that ol religious  self righteous  spirit ,  thinking you have Jesus and no one else does  , and I am holy and no one else   has the truth  but me and   we will find out   FAST  , NO ONE IS HOLY BUT GOD HIMSELF !!     your  flesh  is weak  and beggarly of elements   and  are in the  consuming fire  with the liars   and  beast    and   satan   and  so  overcome !!!  oh there is repentance   and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth   !   Esau   lost his birthright in the same manner  and seeing corruption , we all get to see this corruption  ,  the destruction of the flesh     by refusing to let the HOLY SPIRIT  AND FIRE     BE  number ONE    and lead us to Life     , loving God first   and one another as himself      , This has always been the standard    that all things are judged by  , this WORD AND SPIRIT   judging us all from the  beginning to the end  because God is not mocked, we always reap what we sow ..    .

It is   GODS HOLY SPIRIT    HIMSELF   chastening you  , cannot blame this  fire working  on you   is  the devil , it is Gods  Spirit of  Jealousy CONSUMING US ,  not giving  His Glory to another  , but the SON ONLY   , we cannot refuse the chastening  of the Lord  , it is for our own good     , ONLY THE SON   HAS THE AUTHORITY      to snatch you out of that fire   ...Sending  those in the Body of Christ with a cup of cold water   to  comfort you  in the proper time as we all grow in truth and grace .


We    really  are blessed when God gives us eyes to see and   ears to hear and  finally a heart to understand what the Holy Spirit is teaching us  all   
  and  both the water and the fire   baptisms, being totally submerged   and overcome by  both , death/the watery  graves  and hell/ fires of  hurt  and loss   soon follows after it ,  blessed is the ones whom do not have to EXPERIENCE    THOSE depths  fully  ,  to be able  to come to Christ in GOD  Fully and perfectly   whom is ALL in ALL ..
Revelation  or revealing of Jesus Christ teaches us , the WORD MADE FLESH  ,  what is happening  to us  and until we learn  of Him and though Him Spirit of Life , we  have lots to learn and experience  because experience is also a good teacher/ Master   ,JESUS CHRIST BY  by saying and than  DOING   ... 

Earthly wisdom   does not work at all   ,   You must be Born again  to even be able to    experience the heavenly Wisdom    that comes down to us from ABOVE  and is in us   all    rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH   ...   As the SPIRIT   GIVES  LIFE back from the dead  .

  Hoping to bless  you all in the same ways  it has blessed me    ,  painful as this all has been , I would never want  it any other way  , it is what it took  to make me  change  according to His  desires   and  as unwilling as I was  at times , makes  me wonder why He didn't  just give  up on  on me , so glad he deals with us all  so  perfectly   and now knowing LOVE  is the greatest    thing  ever   was or is or will ever be  known  in our hearts     that  cannot be taken away   , how really blessed we truly are        :HeartThrob:

  Now,  about that  lake of fire ,    as the lake   touches the outer borders of our own  earth / flesh    it is to me the HOLY CITY    THAT COMES DOWN TO US ALL    AND DWELLS within us  that burns  all those things that offend  in the outer court   and can never enter      Her gates , but  her   Holy call  to rise up and be with Her    and enter gates are ALWAYS open to all the   true HOLY ONES that cannot be harmed or suffer loss     these are the Fathers own    that none can snatch them out of His hand /power  and   Wisdom has been justified by  them    offspring   as HOLY UNTO GOD in,  By and though  the LORD JESUS CHRIST  /THE HOLY WORD  seed  that grew   as incorruptible  .and cannot be  corrupted  ever . 
But  the fake jerusalem   teaching of  the false peace of the earth   is  Babylon  and  bound for destruction  /fire of Gehenna    correction ,  Matt 24 ...   built on the wrong and below wisdom  :sigh: and  is in the fires of torment   , we  must learn the difference  between the two wisdoms ...
and will be made  white     by   the great tribulation . rev 7     that comes upon the whole world as a witness  .

I do not think a one of us come out  unscathed   , except the holy one    that was born  within you , with great travail   , trials and error . 
  This is only mine own experience and  many have their own  experiences  as a  witness to the Glory of   God  in the earth .   
  Jut sharing in some details   as the Holy Spirit teaches us all  what Gods righteousness  means to us personally .     

Pardon, what now? Chester posted the NLT's spuriously over free form translation of Matthew, I then missed that it was a false translation and built an question around it which you then responded to, I was misled and in turn i managed to mislead you into a dead end conversation, at least based on this quote, I apologize to you Rose for unintentionally misleading you.

Yeah, I continue to be less than convinced that how you're understanding that part of Ecclesiastes is actually what it says but this probably isn't the thread to discuss that.

Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.

  I am  sorry but many will NOT have the abundant Life in Christ  here  in the short existance of being born flesh and  blood   ...

   Many  WILL   when they rise   up out of the earth   though only to be  taught of the HOLY SPIRIT AND WORD OF LIFE   as  we are learning what His righteousness in the earth is all about   NOW ..

  I am not so foolish to think  , i have it all figured out   yet , and still wait on the Lord   to complete His HOLY plan  .

It has always been the FATHER THAT GIVES THE INCREASE  OF TRUTH AND GRACE     and we all stand in hope  here , unless we stumble over the WORD and  get hurt  ourselves and fail and fall  from that   same truth and grace    ONLY GOD IS ABLE TO MAKE US STAND IN TRUTH  BY HIS GRACE  , I have experienced way to many fiery trials    to say  anything against anyone   , no matter where they are at in the LORDS PLAN   of the ages    and things to come ...   :HeartThrob:

Yeah, but the NLT is clearly arguing in favor of ET with that ridiculous quote in which they state that it is 'sad' that many will not be saved.

[Lazarus Short]

Is this on this site? I searched but couldn't find it.

https://www.godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm

Thanks - I printed that out, and will read later - 100+ pages!

[CST]

Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.

Yes.. isn't it just so sad how Yahweh is unable to save so many...  :laughing7: what kind of 'logic' is thAt!? What's actually sad is any believer suffering under such a delusion.. how truly sad..

Super sad! Though I think it's sadder that they write translations of Bibles with study notes that promote such beliefs to other people and then acknowledge that they're sad belief. How sad they some people might come to agree with them because of such sentiments. I'm not entirely sure how much the notes are reflective of the original translation decisions for the NLT, they contain a lot of stuff that it would be real hard to conclude from the text alone at that point yet surely they are already translating it to some group of theologies. Many, many of which a dubious.

Darryl, Apparently it's justified if you don't believe in needing to go through Jesus to get to God.
mind they never actually explain how a God of justice would come up with a plan like that particularly as no one ever asks to born. So to be born in a KJV readers eyes is to be punished forever if you disagree with them......yep, that sure sounds like justice to me.

Not just KJV readers, ET is not the exclusive belief system of those who promote the King James Version, that's just a further branch of dogmatism.

Is this on this site? I searched but couldn't find it.

https://www.godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm

Yes, is the answer to your question:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

[Lazarus Short]

Super sad! Though I think it's sadder that they write translations of Bibles with study notes that promote such beliefs to other people and then acknowledge that they're sad belief. How sad they some people might come to agree with them because of such sentiments. I'm not entirely sure how much the notes are reflective of the original translation decisions for the NLT, they contain a lot of stuff that it would be real hard to conclude from the text alone at that point yet surely they are already translating it to some group of theologies. Many, many of which a dubious.

I'm reminded of a recent issue of the SDA magazine Signs of the Times - the cover story was about Hell, and the writers adhered to the official Annihilationist party line.  Unlike people like me, they could not deviate from that and keep their jobs.  I think that's sad, and sadder still is that their prophetess, Ellen White, also wrote of people going to Hell, and that is because she cribbed from multiple sources, not all of them compatible.

[eaglesway]

I forgot about "tartarus".. deepest darkness? a state of character rather than place, is how I think of it.. thus the way it's used, as being locked into judgment..

I agree with this, and to me it gves some light on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Some acts are so adversarial to God they "lock" one into a judgment phase.

Perhaps it is because the subversion is so deep for someone to do certain things, there is no return from it in this age- like the reprobate mind.

Even if there were a "chamber" in sheol called "tartarus", or "the abyss" it would not be its location of features that would determine its nature- but rather the conditions of those who were contained within it, as Jude spoke of the angels who "left there proper domain" in the days of Noah.

Apparently(as I read it), it was not what they did so much as what they knowingly trampled in order to do what they did, that determined the level of containment necessary to "destroy" their works. They had become a toxic spill, a deadly bug, a corrupted nuclear reactor from which that power meant to serve, preserve and grow the community of the children of God, was instead used to consume, corrupt and defile them.

[CST]

Super sad! Though I think it's sadder that they write translations of Bibles with study notes that promote such beliefs to other people and then acknowledge that they're sad belief. How sad they some people might come to agree with them because of such sentiments. I'm not entirely sure how much the notes are reflective of the original translation decisions for the NLT, they contain a lot of stuff that it would be real hard to conclude from the text alone at that point yet surely they are already translating it to some group of theologies. Many, many of which a dubious.

I'm reminded of a recent issue of the SDA magazine Signs of the Times - the cover story was about Hell, and the writers adhered to the official Annihilationist party line.  Unlike people like me, they could not deviate from that and keep their jobs.  I think that's sad, and sadder still is that their prophetess, Ellen White, also wrote of people going to Hell, and that is because she cribbed from multiple sources, not all of them compatible.

I can't currently think what SDA magazine is. Is the doctrine of Hell compatible with the doctrine of Annihilation? Is that what you meant by incompatible sources? I'm not sure too many people who are prepared to defend such beliefs would really want to deviate from them and if they ever didn't surely their first thought would be, 'I have to leave my job'. The saddest thing about the doctrine of Hell though is that God declares he will judge people by their own standards, the measure you meet is the measure you receive. Surely, and paradoxically, anyone who argues for Hell, were it true, would be the first to deserve Hell. That's an argument that scares me. If God literally judged every single person by their own standards and was obligated to do that Eternal Torment would have to be at least theoretically true for some people. Fortunately, I expect that after experiencing it for a time they might could to reconsider whether anyone would actually deserve such a punishment. At which point I would expect God to judge them by their new standard. Unfortunately the counter to this is that people who genuinely don't think there's anything wrong with any sort of sin, who see the world as a complete free for all with no genuine morals, if their are any people who genuinely believe that they can get away with anything. Surely, at some point God has to execute justice to an actual standard that an acceptable number of people could agree upon. Or at least was uniformly fair even if everyone struggled to agree with it when it came to them or some of their loved ones.

[chester-blowfold]

CST, regarding those that think there's nothing wrong with sin:
Aren't you then looking at God as if God is man with man's thoughts and attitudes to crimes committed? And indeed what is sin and where does the line get drawn regarding the start of punishment and the end of punishment? God can be all loving and forgiving but can he be vengeful too?

[rosered]

   Chester  sin is the punishment   and the guilt  of   dealing with it ,    and the error   made  and missing out on what is Good and and What is God .

Sin is evil and never ever  good and to be  hated and despised in you  and in the world  . :sigh:

[marie glen]

I may be deceiving myself, but I think of God's "wrath" and "vengence" as (usually) one's very own consequences.. both individual and collective.

Missing many details I'm sure, but the overall 'story' and purpose seems to me to be very very simple. That we are learning good from evil which is also life from death.

-- That there's two directions in life - toward God, or away from God. This whole drama of life as we presently know it, is being let to run its course (thinking ability includes being able to make choices; except for the big choice, for HE chooses who is the elect/saved in this life, and who isn't, through no merit of any human.)

And the course the world is on and has been, is away from Him... therefore it can only 'crash and burn' (man's empire(s) built on sand, not the Rock... The final outcome, teaching all "in heaven and earth" that the direction "away from God" can never, ever succeed.

When I read Rev chapter 14.. and Jude 7, which (JUde 7) says Sodom and Gomorrah are the example of God's vengence of 'eternal' fire. An example. Is there flame there now? People writhing in the fire? And where did this example of gehenna(?), tartarus(?), hell(?) fire-#G4442 occur? "Set forth as an example.."

"As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the around them cities, in like with them manner... ...are set forth as an example of fire eternal 'the' penalty undergoing." Jude 7 Interlinear Greek from -  http://studybible.info/IGNT/Jude%201:7

Young's Literal - "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering."

Then taking into account Rev chapter 14 - two classes of people?

6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,

7 saying in a great voice, `Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.' [wheat to be gathered?]

8 And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, ("harlot/"pornos" polluting) because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'

9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,

10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. [Will they be tormented to ages of ages? even those who never heard the "good news" or heard a wrong version, hard to believe? or is this a poetic way of saying the memory will never be forgotten?]

12 Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' [works follow because His coming is SO close to their death]

14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

15 and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, `Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'

16 and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. [the wheat, sheep?]

17 And another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary that [is] in the heaven, having -- he also -- a sharp sickle,

18 and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, `Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection [ripeness] have her grapes;'

19 and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;

20 and trodden was the wine-press outside of the city, and blood [oil?] did come forth out of the wine-press -- unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.

Then, chapter 15 is seven angels with seven bowls to pour out on the earth..

15:1 - And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, because in these was completed the wrath of God..

16:1 - And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, `Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth..

I used to think Rev chapters 12 and 13 were inserts, then I realized (or imo) that 12 and 13 are an insert, 13 describing how the last verse of 12 is carried out (which is also Rev 16:14-16-the gathering to Armageddon). But just recently I've come to believe (imo:) that Rev 12,13 and 14 are an insert.

In the center of the earth is a lake of fire.. could enough thermonuclear type warfare.. release some of it upon earth?

[CST]

CST, regarding those that think there's nothing wrong with sin:
Aren't you then looking at God as if God is man with man's thoughts and attitudes to crimes committed? And indeed what is sin and where does the line get drawn regarding the start of punishment and the end of punishment? God can be all loving and forgiving but can he be vengeful too?

I think you may be misunderstanding me, understandably. God tells us He will judge us according to our own standards but evil people tend not to judge themselves evil, the world's biggest bullies, bigots and tyrants all believed they were justified in their beastly ways. I suspect they would come undone because they wouldn't accept the same arguments directed at them. So they are hypocrites and their standards come to nothing. Now so people those are nihilists, they claim there is no morality that people are free to do whatever they want so they could be as wicked to others as they wish as long as they acknowledge they have no right to complain when the world treats them wickedly. If anyone can hold that position without hypocrisy, and I wonder if anyone can, I'm not sure how God could condemn them for wrong doing they don't hold it as wrong by their standard. Of course, I also see how they could be praised or rewarded for any good work, I can't really see how the denial of the good wouldn't be a major hurdle to them. But I'm still not sure how God would be able to punish them.

The point here is that this isn't about people who think there's nothing wrong with sin. It's about those whose standard won't allow any concept of right/wrong, good/evil morality. And if I'm looking at God as a man with a man's attitude it's because that what 'I will judge you by your standards' suggests God will respond. It doesn't mean He's not greater just that He says He's going to use a pattern of justice we use as if He's justified in doing so because we believe it's justified.

[rosered]

In  simple and plain speech ,   
Until anyone of us realize the Kingdom of God is within you[Luke 17]   and God is not  very far away from anyone of us [Acts 17]
We are always looking   outside  and here , there and beyond     for TRUTH   
  TRUTH is the standard  everyone  is judged by  not everyone has   been set free yet.    THE WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS SHARP  as cutting us  and dividing us all ... GOD is the only  work that can put us back together again ,  just like humpty dumpty   .

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

What  no man can do , GOD can  , with God all things are possible   His grace is     what  gets things done .

God shows us examples in  the everyday things we experience , nature teaches us  things .
  I learned a really good example  with  6 baby chicks   and have raised them to  8 weeks  so far ..Rhode Island  reds .

I want  good things for all 6 of them   , no harm  , and work hard keeping them all   clean and fed and watered   and mostly loved  so they will trust me  completely ,   that I mean them no harm  , but want them to produce for me  some eggs in due time .

But they all have different personalities      , 3 of them are named already because of their  sweet   and trusting  characters   and respond  to my  interaction with them .

  They approach me boldly    and  let me  work with them quickly  and effectively  , they come  right up to me  without any  problems    and that  really pleases me to no end !! 
Oh how I want them all to be the same  , but I have two that are flighty    and  make it so much harder  to deal with them   and with lots of fuss and  extra work  ,  they are coming along ,  but this one little one , she is the littlest one and the most  fearful one  she  grieves me   the most  , she is hard to catch    and  runs away   and   does not cooperate   in any sense of the word .

But I love and deal with them all   because of the sweet ones  , making it   easier to love them all  ,  the pleasure of having them   twill at me and look up  and be so trusting      , I go ahead and deal with the rest of them   too. 

I wondered if this is how God must  deal with us ?


Can it be that a few , having the Christ nature in  loving trust  and obedience  are  keeping all    safe  in the grace of God  in every generation ?

All being  created in the WORD OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST  , by Him and for Him and though Him  do all things exist   ...   

  These things bless us to know  GODS LOVE is  everything  and can naturally   work  with ease   in us all  , even the  fearful and defiant  ones are blessed because of the few and will learn  as more  grace is  given .

  Makes me wonder  often , and am not saying  a bad nature cannot change  , if given the  patience  to work in them perfectly /completely .

We cannot rush to judgment  and say this or that when we ourselves  are not done yet ... I love learning  new things and trust God will teach us by His own WORD AND SPIRIT of Truth   doing the works in us,  as we   learn to accept the help with great  joy  and ease,     as it will become our very  nature   to trust   GOD  only  for the well being of all   :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

yes the eggs are important

[rosered]

yes the eggs are important

  :HeartThrob:    So  good to see you  again  Dajomaco 

[chester-blowfold]

CST, yes I get where you are coming from now.

Anyone,What is sin?

[jabcat]

According to the Bible, missing the mark.  Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed).  Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").

[rosered]

According to the Bible, missing the mark.  Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed).  Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").

    Yes it is   :thumbsup:

CST, yes I get where you are coming from now.

Anyone,What is sin?

Chester      Jabcat said , Sin is  missing the   mark        , error   where evil enters   the heart  and makes it hard , and not a heart of  flesh  , but like a  hard   cold stone  , and no love    for God first or your fellowman .

God loves us   and has never stopped   loving  ,Because God IS LOVE   , When  any  have lost our first Love .  The royal law  Love GOD first and your neighbour as yourself   all the law  and prophets  hung on these   two.
  But it is    mankind  that lost its way    that error on the  narrow path  that leads to life and peace and  joy .
Jesus  says in a simple truth sin enters though the heart   and defiles  everything   holy .

This is the theme   throughout the whole Bible   ,in the Beginning  Love God   first   He has never stopped loving us    , we have  stopped loving and even believing in Him by the hardness of sin   ,  and all the hate and killing   and lies  escalating   ,    and we HAVE THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST    manifesting the Love of God    to us by  Holy Spirit conviction   and   Paul running a race , we see the seven  churches  , these are the  seven eyes and spirits of God cleansing  them   with     chastening  and admonishments    and   rewarded  if they    do right and not sin , error   by hearing what the Spirit is say    to purify   into His body  the true church

We see the proof in the world  , If they Loved God first and everyone as themselves    their hearts would   remain holy unto the Lord .

[CST]

According to the Bible, missing the mark.  Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed).  Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").

According to the Bible? Remind me, please. It might define sin thus in the Bible but my memory is that it's a conclusion some linguists have come to by associating the word used for sin with a word used for missing the mark. I can't remember at this time where in the Bible it states that directly. I'll check even while I ask in case I get there faster, but as I don't know the relevant quote it could be quite hard

[CST]

I may be deceiving myself, but I think of God's "wrath" and "vengence" as (usually) one's very own consequences.. both individual and collective.

Missing many details I'm sure, but the overall 'story' and purpose seems to me to be very very simple. That we are learning good from evil which is also life from death.

-- That there's two directions in life - toward God, or away from God. This whole drama of life as we presently know it, is being let to run its course (thinking ability includes being able to make choices; except for the big choice, for HE chooses who is the elect/saved in this life, and who isn't, through no merit of any human.)

And the course the world is on and has been, is away from Him... therefore it can only 'crash and burn' (man's empire(s) built on sand, not the Rock... The final outcome, teaching all "in heaven and earth" that the direction "away from God" can never, ever succeed.

When I read Rev chapter 14.. and Jude 7, which (JUde 7) says Sodom and Gomorrah are the example of God's vengence of 'eternal' fire. An example. Is there flame there now? People writhing in the fire? And where did this example of gehenna(?), tartarus(?), hell(?) fire-#G4442 occur? "Set forth as an example.."

"As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the around them cities, in like with them manner... ...are set forth as an example of fire eternal 'the' penalty undergoing." Jude 7 Interlinear Greek from -  http://studybible.info/IGNT/Jude%201:7

Young's Literal - "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering."

Then taking into account Rev chapter 14 - two classes of people?

6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,

7 saying in a great voice, `Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.' [wheat to be gathered?]

8 And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, ("harlot/"pornos" polluting) because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'

9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,

10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. [Will they be tormented to ages of ages? even those who never heard the "good news" or heard a wrong version, hard to believe? or is this a poetic way of saying the memory will never be forgotten?]

12 Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' [works follow because His coming is SO close to their death]

14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;

15 and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, `Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'

16 and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. [the wheat, sheep?]

17 And another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary that [is] in the heaven, having -- he also -- a sharp sickle,

18 and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, `Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection [ripeness] have her grapes;'

19 and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;

20 and trodden was the wine-press outside of the city, and blood [oil?] did come forth out of the wine-press -- unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.

Then, chapter 15 is seven angels with seven bowls to pour out on the earth..

15:1 - And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, because in these was completed the wrath of God..

16:1 - And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, `Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth..

I used to think Rev chapters 12 and 13 were inserts, then I realized (or imo) that 12 and 13 are an insert, 13 describing how the last verse of 12 is carried out (which is also Rev 16:14-16-the gathering to Armageddon). But just recently I've come to believe (imo:) that Rev 12,13 and 14 are an insert.

In the center of the earth is a lake of fire.. could enough thermonuclear type warfare.. release some of it upon earth?

Oh, we are going there are we? Then I suppose I should too even though it's not really the proper board and I should explain what I previously alluded to about how I interpret a statement that seems to state the wicked are punished inside God's presence versus a series of statements that suggests that a big part of the punishment is excluding them from God's presence i.e. outside the city. Sorry I don't know what you mean by insert so can't gauge how much we may be saying the same things here.

But first that phrase 'forever and ever' that phrase is a problem. It's easy to just say that, that nonsense and it should be rendered 'ages of the ages' but that's nonsense too. Both words ages are equal so the cancel each other out. It may as well say, 'all the ages' for all the sense it makes. But here's the thing that may or may not have been previously observed (hence why I had intended to wait until later) the phrase 'forever' does not appear anywhere in the Book of Revelation. What I mean by that is that the phrase 'forever and ever' appears in the Book of Revelation about 12-14 times depending on the original source and the whim of the translator and that is the entire record of the term 'forever' in the book of Revelation, there's nothing that's simply described as lasting 'forever' everything that is said to last forever in the Revelation last 'forever and ever'. It's a motif and most usually it applies to God or Jesus in contexts that in any other circumstances we would take as 'forever' meaning 'without end' without question. It's only the apparent difficulties surrounding the eternal fate of man that causes hesitation.

So here's the thing. As mention by you above the Revelation here describes those who worship the Devil and the Beast, those whose name aren't written in the Book of Life and receive the mark of its name. It says they will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, tormented day and night, smoke from their torment going up forever and ever.

At the end of the Bible, it then says that the Devil is thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the false prophet are (having been put in earlier) and will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Same terms, it then says that all those whose names were not found in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Because all the same terms are involved it is usually taken that both passages refer to the same thing, one looking forward to the other. But the Revelation looks forward anyway. So what if they don't? There are these contradicts, the presense of the Lamb is presented as being inside the city while those in the LoF are presented as being outside, it says the Devil and Beasts will be tormented day and night it says there will be no night in the city due to God's presence. That's what it says and that seems to be a contradiction.

So what if they're not the same, what if Rev. 14 refers to those who follow the Beast during its reign on the Earth. God executes judgment on the Beast throughout the book and those follow it seem, for the most part to be the only ones who receive injury, the beast and false prophet are not caught and cast into the lake of Fire until the very end, Satan until even later, so forever and ever obvious isn't an identical time period for all three parties.

So what happens at the end? My theory, maybe yours or others here, God punishes the Devil, Beast and false prophet for deceiving His children and thus causing them injury. Because the punishment should be just and fit the crime the exact same terms are used, day and night, forever and ever. Forever and ever also likely has a special meaning in the Revelation pertaining to the Reign of God. The term is also used in reference to the punishment of the Devil, due to his direct opposition to God's reign and attempting to set himself up in God's place.

Just a theory from one reading of the Revelation and it may be a little messy. But I like it until it's corrected by better understanding of the text and it may have at least some correct readings in it. Hope it can be followed by the reader.

[jabcat]

According to the Bible, missing the mark.  Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed).  Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").

According to the Bible?

one example;  all have "hamartánō"  (a term in the Greek that comes from an archery term meaning to miss the bulls-eye/target)...missing God's will, requirement...

seems to be a pretty good general meaning, although specifics may vary according to useage and circumstance, etc...that's why i believe some things are clear and obvious (spelled out), while others seem to have more to do with conscience and each person's individual walk... :2c:

[Seth]

According to the Bible, "sin is lawlessness." The mark is, "believe in Jesus and love eachother." Missing the mark is to miss that.  :2c: