A Believer in Christ and in the Word of God

[CHB]

You know, I hear preachers say "God is awesome, he is good, he loves us" and then say "God has a place prepared, a burning hell, to torture his children which he loves so much". They don't say the last words exactly like that but actually that is what they mean. The Bible says " God loves us much more than we can ever love our children. If this is so, how many parents who love their children would build a fire to burn their children in forever while they are begging for mercy? Pray tell, how can this be?

If every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and it also says "no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit". These people that are bowing and confessing and burning is doing so by the Holy Spirit. Also it says that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. How do you who believe in hell explain this?

Oh, I pray for the day when all will know the truth.

CHB

[marie glen]

Amen! Amen!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree:

[Shev]

I have yet to find a scripture that indicates that salvation is by chance, or the choice of man.

What I have found, are scriptures that establish salvation as from God alone, and scriptures that indicate He is both willing and able to save all.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and to seek and save that which is lost. For Him to be triumphant is for Him to succeed in those aims. To call Him victorious otherwise is to call a 62-6 loss in football a great victory.

[Patinak]

CHB and Shev:

Amen! Amen!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree: :iagree:

[joeteekay]

Very good responses  :iagree:

[Herschel]

I have yet to find a scripture that indicates that salvation is by chance, or the choice of man.

What I have found, are scriptures that establish salvation as from God alone, and scriptures that indicate He is both willing and able to save all.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and to seek and save that which is lost. For Him to be triumphant is for Him to succeed in those aims. To call Him victorious otherwise is to call a 62-6 loss in football a great victory.

If there is no scripture indicating that salvation is by the choice of man in choosing to believe and confess the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing in ones heart that God has raised Him from the dead so that he might be saved, what is Romans 10:9-10? And if it is Gods plan to save every soul, regardless of whether they confess Jesus as Lord or not, but rather "refine" them in the lake of fire so that they will bow their knee to Christ regardless? What was Gods purpose in cruelly sending Christ to die a horrible and inhumane death on a cross after a horrendous bout of cruelty and inhumane torture? This makes Christ's sacrifice for all of mankind of no effect. God was going to save the whole world and all of mankind regardless. The thief on the cross didn't need Jesus, because God was going to save him anyway!

What of Ezekiel 18:1-32? What of 2 Peter 2;20-22; What of 2 Peter 3:9? If God is going to save us anyway, what is the need of repentance? Why do I need to be "found of him in peace, without spot and blameless"? 2 Peter 3:14 If God was going to save us all anyway, why the charade in the Garden of Eden? If Gods plan was to save all mankind regardless, why did he cruelly drown the entire world and save just Noah and his family? If God was going to save everyone anyway, then none of the bible makes any sense. If anyone can answer these questions, I am listening. I already know that I am not Jewish, so I won't be among the 144,000. So I guess I will have to be among the "multitude which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues who stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robe and palms in our hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."  Revelation 7:13-14; And one of the elders answered , saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."     

The Bible makes it quite clear that washing ones robes in the blood of the Lamb is by our acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ for who he is, and what he has done for us. There is none other name under heaven by which men might be saved and there is none other way under heaven by which men must be saved other than through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God and by his death on a cross, burial, and His resurrection from the dead, Our belief in Him, our confession of Him, and the belief in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead! To do this, is to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. The blood of Jesus is the only way to salvation. PERIOD! It is our dip in the blood of Jesus that hides our sin from God. No dip in the lake of fire can destroy our sin, nor hide it from God. As a matter of fact, It will be unconfessed sin and the failure to repent thereof that will put non believers into the lake of fire. Jesus said; "You must be born again".

I call upon the name, and the blood, of Jesus Christ! I confess Him as my Lord and Savior! I believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead! Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings! AMEN!

[Shev]

As for Romans 10:9-10, it is cause and effect. Our will is involved in salvation as effect, but God's will is the cause - "for it is God who works in your to will and to do for His good pleasure". Remember John wrote about those born NOT of the will of man, NOR of the will of the flesh, but of God? And that Jesus said "No man comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws Him"? And that faith is a gift, so that salvation is not of ourselves, "lest any man should boast?"

I am not sure why people need to go to hell for there to be a point to salvation? To me, Christ saving ALL is a greater, more far reaching victory...one which will lead to both death and enmity being destroyed..."for the last enemy to be destroyed is death".

[CHB]

Herschel,

You are right saying this:

"The Bible makes it quite clear that washing ones robes in the blood of the Lamb is by our acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ for who he is, and what he has done for us. There is none other name under heaven by which men might be saved and there is none other way under heaven by which men must be saved other than through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God and by his death on a cross, burial, and His resurrection from the dead, Our belief in Him, our confession of Him, and the belief in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead! To do this, is to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. The blood of Jesus is the only way to salvation. PERIOD! It is our dip in the blood of Jesus that hides our sin from God. No dip in the lake of fire can destroy our sin, nor hide it from God. As a matter of fact, It will be unconfessed sin and the failure to repent thereof that will put non believers into the lake of fire. Jesus said; "You must be born again".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Only thing is, as I said before, "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess". This will be done and everyone will be saved. Everyone will accept him eventually in their own time appointed.

God had a plan from the beginning. It is all about him and none of us.

If I may ask a question? If burning in hell is ones destination for sin why didn't Jesus have to endure it, wouldn't he have had to, to keep anyone out of hell? Or, are we going to hell for something else?  Since that penalty has not been met,...Jesus didn't go there... and we all have sinned then stands to reason all will go to hell. If Jesus death paid for all sins what is hell for? Is it for unbelief? Isn't unbelief a sin and haven't all sins been paid for?

Well, maybe I should have said a few questions.

CHB

[marie glen]

Amen, brother Shev and CHB.. and Hershal,

None are saved except by believing in Jesus! Never, no, never! There's only One Way to the Father..

But I believe, Hershal, that by time the end of Judgment 'Day' that most, if not all, will "believe".

I first started to believe this while prayerfully studying the Book of Revelation. And began to imagine what it might be like to be in the 2nd resurrection. I feel confident that you know this is a resurrection of all those who died without believing. First, i would experience being awoken from my grave. That in itself, would find me, suddenly "believing"!

Then i would witness surely(?) what would be a rather long day of the review of all human history. What better way to really drive home what it is He is teaching!? To those of the 2nd resurrection, to those who are His (reinforcement) and to all angels watching..

In short however - What does it take to be written in the book of life? And where does it say it can only be written into during this life only? And not during the (long?) Judgment 'Day'? Is to rise "still in one's sins" the end of the line and beyond God's ability? Why not simply not do the 2nd resurrection?

And, I now believe we are given an outline of the two ages following His return in Revelation chapter 20. Not passing so quickly as it may seem written, but an outline/peaks of.
:Peace2: God bless..

[Shev]

ET tends to venerate the will of the creation over the will of God, who would have all to be saved, but cannot because of His stubborn creation. (Of course there is also the Calvinist ET version, where God could, but does not want to).

UR tends to venerate the will of God over the will of the creation, as He "subjected it to futility, in hope", and by the counsel of His own will, and through the righteous act of His own Son, not only wrought salvation for all, but more importantly, made it so Jesus Christ shall be preeminent in ALL THINGS.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:  :iagree:  :dsunny:

[CST]

What did Jesus do when to Satan tempted Him? He quoted Scripture as it was written.  Jesus' reply to Satan to counter the temptations were, "IT IS WRITTEN", then He spoke the scriptures, and defeated Satan at his own game with the Word of God. Jesus gives us this authority now. We are able to defeat Satan with the Word of God. Jesus has returned our original authority over the earth that Adam gave to Satan, if we only will acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. Perhaps I digress, but I thought it was important that this be said.

I know this! Jesus Christ is Lord, I am washed in His blood. Believers in Christ are the righteous of God in Christ Jesus.  We cannot accept Christ for anyone else. Whether I believe that God will refine and cleanse those who lost in a lake of fire or not, really doesn't matter because what I believe doesn't matter or change God's preordained plan, it only changes MY destiny. Jesus Christ is real. I don't just believe it, I KNOW IT!  It is The Holy Spirit who calls us to Him. It is the Blood of Christ that saves us and washes us. If I know that I am saved, reconciled to God and washed in the blood of Christ, then I know that because I believe, the works that Jesus did, I SHOULD DO ALSO! John 14:12

How many times have I had to say to myself and to God, "Father, what is YOUR truth? These people say this, those people say that, but Lord God, I need YOUR answer. Please reveal YOUR truth concerning this matter, to me? Father you have told me not to follow or chase after men, for you are with me.....................Well, Father God, No matter what other men say, you haven't let me down yet! If we truly seek HIM, and HIS TRUTH, and it isn't meant to be a mystery to us, God will reveal HIS truth to us. In the meantime, I just have to trust His Word in Ephesians 4:11-16, "that through apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors; and teachers, His goal is for us to be perfected. We are edify the body of Christ; Till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."   

Evidently, we,............... those of us who believe, even the Bride of Christ, haven't reached that point yet, because we still disagree on too many things? I say unto the Church, to the Bride of Christ,  Are we TRULY of the Bride of Christ, or, are we deceiving our own selves? Why is it that there is any question? We seriously need to think about this question, and ask, and seek, and knock for the door to be opened, and that  almighty GOD might give us HIS answer.  Remember the miracles of God wrought by the Apostles and the Church in the book of Acts. The baptism of the Holy Spirit came when the 120 disciples were ALL in the upper room, ALL of one mind, and ALL of one accord. It is when the Bride of Christ, the Church, is all together, of one mind and of one accord that the Holy Spirit moves and miracles are accomplished. Matthew 18:19-20 " Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Heavenly Father, I ask you in Jesus name, WHERE IS THE CHURCH OF THE BOOK OF ACTS? USE US DEAR FATHER TO BRING BACK THIS CHURCH! USE US DEAR FATHER TO DO YOUR WILL ON EARTH, AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN! USE US DEAR LORD AND HEAVENLY FATHER! WE ASK THIS IN THE NAME, AND UNDER THE BLOOD OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST! AMEN!

Quite, 'Man shall shall not live by bread alone but by every word but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' (Matt. 4:4) A very important quote it sets up the whole rest of the exchange and is probably one of the reasons both Matthew and Luke use it first, even though Luke doesn't finish the quote so it's mainly Matthew.

'And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know; that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but that man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Deut. 8:3)

Not quite the same, is it? Still I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect to always remember the text word for word but it does slightly reduce your argument He quoted everything 'as written'. because He cited it loosely but not perfectly it seems. But that seems to be splitting hairs I can't see much of a difference. Too be fair, on reflection this could simply and quite probably be demonstrating a discrepancy of the Septuagint that's the Greek Translation of the Old Testament which the Jews of Jesus' day used and knew rather better than the Hebrew ones. Which is a bit of a problem when you want to talk about the quoting the Bible, as written, because there's no such thing. There's just an awful lot of old documents that we imagine are translations of several first documents that disagree on numerous points on what they're meant to say including whether or not the original text had the divine name at certain points of other points. The only reason we can compile the Bible at all is that we have a lot of these texts and they tend to agree far more than they disagree, they're still a huge number of discrepancies and no real way to know which is the correct original.

Of course, the Devil quotes scripture too at one point. 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.' (Matt. 4:6) The Devil is clearly doing what the Devil does and trying to pervert the truth here but, that said, having been used for this temptation it's unclear how this verse of scripture plays anywhere.

And I agree that we can't accept Christ for anyone else (although there's the Baptism for the dead thing which is strange) but have to wonder why say you think it doesn't matter if you believe God will cleanse those in the Lake of Fire. If so than why are you here? It obviously matters to you on some level or you wouldn't be here challenging us about it.

Good, your asking the right question, the 'What is truth?' question I mentioned in the other thread. I'm being flippant about this Pilate asking that question is probably the most important statement by someone who doesn't serve Jesus in the Bible. And if you read what I'd put (I don't know if you did) which I hadn't actually finished you should understand that John makes 24 statements in his Gospel to answer that question and one to ask it.

There's a rather famous quote in the Western world now from a film I've not seen the nub of it which declares. "You can't handle the truth!" The story of God in the Bible seems to be that an awful lot of people can't handle the truth, God tells Adam not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He's persuaded to ignore that truth and eats from the tree. Lot and his family are told not to look back as they flee from Sodom and Gomorrah, his wife disbelieves... oh, dear. The Bible is full of things like this and then is the Gospels like St. John's Gospel, God sends His Son, who claims to be the Truth. The living actual Truth. And the people have so much trouble receiving and handling this Truth, are so threatened by it they conspire to murder God's Son our Lord Jesus. Which I think is part of the answer to you other question.

That's a strong post though from a clearly passionate believer. The ending is certainly a valid question although you should no there's a case against the word 'Church' often made on Tentmaker because it's believed to have a pagan origin. I haven't decided how much I care about this yet.

I have yet to find a scripture that indicates that salvation is by chance, or the choice of man.

What I have found, are scriptures that establish salvation as from God alone, and scriptures that indicate He is both willing and able to save all.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and to seek and save that which is lost. For Him to be triumphant is for Him to succeed in those aims. To call Him victorious otherwise is to call a 62-6 loss in football a great victory.

If there is no scripture indicating that salvation is by the choice of man in choosing to believe and confess the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing in ones heart that God has raised Him from the dead so that he might be saved, what is Romans 10:9-10? And if it is Gods plan to save every soul, regardless of whether they confess Jesus as Lord or not, but rather "refine" them in the lake of fire so that they will bow their knee to Christ regardless? What was Gods purpose in cruelly sending Christ to die a horrible and inhumane death on a cross after a horrendous bout of cruelty and inhumane torture? This makes Christ's sacrifice for all of mankind of no effect. God was going to save the whole world and all of mankind regardless. The thief on the cross didn't need Jesus, because God was going to save him anyway!

What of Ezekiel 18:1-32? What of 2 Peter 2;20-22; What of 2 Peter 3:9? If God is going to save us anyway, what is the need of repentance? Why do I need to be "found of him in peace, without spot and blameless"? 2 Peter 3:14 If God was going to save us all anyway, why the charade in the Garden of Eden? If Gods plan was to save all mankind regardless, why did he cruelly drown the entire world and save just Noah and his family? If God was going to save everyone anyway, then none of the bible makes any sense. If anyone can answer these questions, I am listening. I already know that I am not Jewish, so I won't be among the 144,000. So I guess I will have to be among the "multitude which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues who stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robe and palms in our hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."  Revelation 7:13-14; And one of the elders answered , saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."     

The Bible makes it quite clear that washing ones robes in the blood of the Lamb is by our acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ for who he is, and what he has done for us. There is none other name under heaven by which men might be saved and there is none other way under heaven by which men must be saved other than through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God and by his death on a cross, burial, and His resurrection from the dead, Our belief in Him, our confession of Him, and the belief in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead! To do this, is to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. The blood of Jesus is the only way to salvation. PERIOD! It is our dip in the blood of Jesus that hides our sin from God. No dip in the lake of fire can destroy our sin, nor hide it from God. As a matter of fact, It will be unconfessed sin and the failure to repent thereof that will put non believers into the lake of fire. Jesus said; "You must be born again".

I call upon the name, and the blood, of Jesus Christ! I confess Him as my Lord and Savior! I believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead! Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings! AMEN!

The question of why Jesus had to die and why God sent Him can't be answered in relation to God's intentions to otherwise let everyone perish if He doesn't God's capability to save doesn't depend on the sacrifice of Jesus or that would suggest that God is somehow beholden to Satan. That Satan has somehow bested Him and now He has to come up with some mechanism whereby He can save a small number of the people Satan has caught if they choose to escape. God didn't send Jesus to die. Or at least He didn't send Him purely to die as the way your phrasing it would seem to suggest. Remember God didn't kill Jesus we did. By our most monstrous mechanism because we're a monstrous species. Jesus came to save us but the way He died should stand to ever remind us why we need saving. There's loads of reasons for the crucifixion, that's just one that I can see.

Who is saying the events of the Garden of Eden were a charade, God gave a real warning with real consequences they just weren't consequences that were beyond His power to fix as the traditional doctrine would have us believe. Why the flood? Why not? If God had no concern for saving people than what was the point? Why not just let all the evil people live out their evil lives however long they are and they send them to Hell at the end. If God has no intent to save there's no real point of Him intervening at all.

I'm also of the opinion that the 144 000 aren't literally people from the House of Israel. There was a traditional belief that they were children as this would explain their virginity. But I'm not sure the 144 000 and the multitude are actually different I suspect they're just different way of saying the same thing but i'll have to recheck the details at some point. At present though it looks like a contradiction if they're different.

Again no one's arguing that they have to wash their robes in th blood of the lamb, which is a nice a paradoxical symbol. It technically suggests we don't have to wash our bodies and it also doesn't tell us where our robes came from and if they were filthy when we got them. The other question is against your assumption that the blood of the lamb and all opportunities to receive it stop at death, they don't or else their are statements of Jesus that make no sense.

[marie glen]

ET tends to venerate the will of the creation over the will of God, who would have all to be saved, but cannot because of His stubborn creation. (Of course there is also the Calvinist ET version, where God could, but does not want to).

UR tends to venerate the will of God over the will of the creation, as He "subjected it to futility, in hope", and by the counsel of His own will, and through the righteous act of His own Son, not only wrought salvation for all, but more importantly, made it so Jesus Christ shall be preeminent in ALL THINGS.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: Amen!

The other question is against your assumption that the blood of the lamb and all opportunities to receive it stop at death..

Of your points CST I agree with this one the most.. and the rest of it,

or else their are statements of Jesus that make no sense.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: that of course is not possible! I love how more and more we notice the many, many verses which support an all comprehensive totally victorious gospel - God's Great Plan of Salvation.. (Can one dare to believe it? God's total victory and supremacy?! Can we mortal, flawed creatures imagine an outcome better than He can?)