Hello,
My name is Herschel! I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, His death on the cross, and that God has raised Him from the dead. Jesus Christ said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No man comes to the Father but by me".(John 14:8) He was not speaking of His oneness with God, even though He, God, and the Holy Spirit are one. God sent Him to the earth to live as a man because God cannot be sacrificed in our stead, only a someone who is fully a man fits that qualification. Only a spotless, sinless man could pay the price for our sin.That man was and is, The Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, He is FULLY GOD, but He is also FULLY MAN! In Romans, 10:9-10 We are told that If we shall "confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in our heart that God has raised him from the dead, we shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
If we do not believe in Him in our heart, we cannot confess Him as Lord. John 3:18, says, (Jesus Himself speaking) "He that believes on him is not condemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Hi, Herschel. Were you aware that there is some debate over whether the passage you quote is actually the recorded words of Jesus or whether they are they commentary od John on what Jesus said in the passage above. I'm not actually sure what difference it would make but wanted to know if you knew of this dispute and were telling us which side you fell on, or didn't and were taking for granted how it's traditionally been presented.
Welcome anyway, Herschel. Hope you find many answers here.
Hi Herschel!
Welcome to Tentmakers!
We discuss many topics here, but the main focus is whether or not we all gain eternal life, with God, through Jesus.
I hope you come here often. The Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth, I trust.
:welcome:
D.
Welcome Herschel!
CST,
Satan said to Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden: "Has God said "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden"? Satan did not say what God had said, but planted subversion, with the intent of deception, in his question.
Now, you are saying to me, "Did Jesus REALLY say……..."? As to whether Jesus said it or not. I will have to trust The Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, who spoke the words, and to His witness's, to write those words down correctly.
Satan does come to snatch the truth away, and, if we allow him, will turn the truth into a lie. My bible says that Jesus Christ said it. I have faith in God's word to speak truth to me. I must put my final faith in the Word of God and NOT in what men tell me unless it lines up perfectly with the Word of God. In order to do this, I must study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)
The Word is the only authority I have by which to try the spirits to see if they be of God. (1 John 4:1-2) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know you the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." I will say to you now, that Jesus Christ HAS DEFINITELY come in the flesh! The Apostle Paul Said: Therefore I endure all things for the elects sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Verse 14 of 2 Timothy 2, tells us "of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers". God forbid that I cause subversion among hearers of the gospel with arguments about words. I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth, because according to 1 John 2:26-27, "These things have I (Paul) written to you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him."
Quote from: CST on July 30, 2016, 05:14:47 PM
Hi, Herschel. Were you aware that there is some debate over whether the passage you quote is actually the recorded words of Jesus or whether they are they commentary od John on what Jesus said in the passage above. I'm not actually sure what difference it would make but wanted to know if you knew of this dispute and were telling us which side you fell on, or didn't and were taking for granted how it's traditionally been presented.
Welcome anyway, Herschel. Hope you find many answers here.
I never heard of that debate! But ones like it.. Or maybe they were the same ones..? :Chinscratch: Or different verses, one or the other! Silly people! ...that's my opinion anyway.. 2 strange tendencies, to doubt God's Word - the original, before mistranslation married to legend (or vice versa?)
And 2, to believe strange extra-biblical writings, I mean the strange ones, and 3 ( :laughing7: to not understand God's Word and start talking in strange and weird theories about God's Word so when a seeker of God comes around it's just a bunch of babble. Am I being judgmental? I am aren't I..? (And what about folks who are all bored with God's Word so they're into some sort of or all sorts of weird whatnots..) Sorry! Must be some Midwest redneck leaking out.. Actually I'm being kind of tongue in cheek.. God bless us all!
Welcome Hershel! to Tentmaker forum! Hope we hear a lot from you around here. :welcome:
WELCOME, HERSCHEL!
P.S - I forgot to express shock :mshock: at the idea of anyone being bored with God's Word.. :faint:
:smile:
Love those animated pictures! Hahaha.
D.
I love to use those! :laughing7: humor lightens the :HeartThrob: !
Quote from: marie glen on July 31, 2016, 06:37:08 AM
Quote from: CST on July 30, 2016, 05:14:47 PM
Hi, Herschel. Were you aware that there is some debate over whether the passage you quote is actually the recorded words of Jesus or whether they are they commentary od John on what Jesus said in the passage above. I'm not actually sure what difference it would make but wanted to know if you knew of this dispute and were telling us which side you fell on, or didn't and were taking for granted how it's traditionally been presented.
Welcome anyway, Herschel. Hope you find many answers here.
I never heard of that debate! But ones like it.. Or maybe they were the same ones..? :Chinscratch: Or different verses, one or the other! Silly people! ...that's my opinion anyway.. 2 strange tendencies, to doubt God's Word - the original, before mistranslation married to legend (or vice versa?)
And 2, to believe strange extra-biblical writings, I mean the strange ones, and 3 ( :laughing7: to not understand God's Word and start talking in strange and weird theories about God's Word so when a seeker of God comes around it's just a bunch of babble. Am I being judgmental? I am aren't I..? (And what about folks who are all bored with God's Word so they're into some sort of or all sorts of weird whatnots..) Sorry! Must be some Midwest redneck leaking out.. Actually I'm being kind of tongue in cheek.. God bless us all!
It's hard to pin down because I don't directly have information about what it concerns either. So I have to speculate on it's exact nature all I have is a series of Bibles all of which contain a footnote or comment saying that some scholars 'hold that that quotation ends at verse 15' or similar it took me awhile to work out what this meant but I think it's due to the fact that the Greek text contains no punctuation marks for quotation so you have to use reason and common sense to try and work out when people stop speaking. This usually doesn't seem to be a problem but in John 3 you have this:
'Jesus answered him,
"Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.' (John: 3:10-21)
Following RSV. Now that's the full passage. The text in bold is held without dispute to be the words of Jesus spoken in response to Nicodemus. The second part is considered by some that it might well be John's explanatory commentary on Jesus' words. I would imagine this is because it contains phrases like 'only Son of God' (only begotten) and talks about the light coming into the world. Terms that would seem to echo John's introductory passage to his Gospel which we know are his words and not direct quotes from Jesus spoken during His Earthly lifetime.
At the same time it's a very bold and authoritative statement not something I'd have thought John could just claim just because it feels right. Obviously it's been revealed to Him by Jesus and has His full authority, it just changes the meaning of the passage as to what Jesus actually said on that day. Surely it means exactly the same think to readers, He just never said it to Nicodemus.
Interesting! thank you! :gsmile:
Yeah, that supposition mainly refers to the 'Only Begotten' lines which can not, so far as I can tell be traced to the lips of Jesus, light has come lines can just about be connected to 'Light of the World' phrases, although they don't seem quite so dramatic.Important, of course, but consist of fewer lines of exposition and explanation. It seems to be similar statements He's making but they're scattered across the Gospel.
Quote from: Herschel on July 30, 2016, 07:54:53 PM
CST,
Satan said to Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden: "Has God said "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden"? Satan did not say what God had said, but planted subversion, with the intent of deception, in his question.
Now, you are saying to me, "Did Jesus REALLY say........."? As to whether Jesus said it or not. I will have to trust The Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, who spoke the words, and to His witness's, to write those words down correctly.
Satan does come to snatch the truth away, and, if we allow him, will turn the truth into a lie. My bible says that Jesus Christ said it. I have faith in God's word to speak truth to me. I must put my final faith in the Word of God and NOT in what men tell me unless it lines up perfectly with the Word of God. In order to do this, I must study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)
The Word is the only authority I have by which to try the spirits to see if they be of God. (1 John 4:1-2) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know you the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." I will say to you now, that Jesus Christ HAS DEFINITELY come in the flesh! The Apostle Paul Said: Therefore I endure all things for the elects sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Verse 14 of 2 Timothy 2, tells us "of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers". God forbid that I cause subversion among hearers of the gospel with arguments about words. I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth, because according to 1 John 2:26-27, "These things have I (Paul) written to you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him."
:iagree: :thumbsup: :goodpost:
I agree! that was very well said!!
It's only well said if Herchel understood what i was saying when I asked him a question about something that when i explained to you you called 'interesting' the Bible records God's instruction to us in the forms of many different forms of literature one of those is history. At the point in John that was being cited there is a question mark over what the historical truth is as to what Jesus said to Nicodemus on that day, the Bible doesn't tell us clearly because it doesn't include the necessary punctuation to make it clear. I continue to be unsure if I might be able to read to scene differently knowing whether or not Jesus said the last part to Nicodemus on that day, I don't know if their are people who have interpretations of the scene that depend on one or other situation being true.
I was challenging the truth of the sentiment but only wondering if it did or didn't have a different weight depending on if Jesus said it on the day or not because it's a supremely important passage. I currently can't really think what difference it would make but I'm curious about the possibility.
:thumbsup: Oh yes.. I was agreeing with and applauding about how God's Word is our rule(r) for truth, the measure for what is truth and what isn't.. that being said we believers do disagree on what it says at times and in particular places.. Nothing wrong with that! I'm sure we are all right, and not quite as right, about many things.. I have no doubt I will have to amend my thoughts on some, if not many things :mshock: :doh: on that perfect day.. :gsmile:
Quote from: CST on August 03, 2016, 07:19:54 PM
It's only well said if Herchel understood what i was saying when I asked him a question about something that when i explained to you you called 'interesting' the Bible records God's instruction to us in the forms of many different forms of literature one of those is history. At the point in John that was being cited there is a question mark over what the historical truth is as to what Jesus said to Nicodemus on that day, the Bible doesn't tell us clearly because it doesn't include the necessary punctuation to make it clear. I continue to be unsure if I might be able to read to scene differently knowing whether or not Jesus said the last part to Nicodemus on that day, I don't know if their are people who have interpretations of the scene that depend on one or other situation being true.
I was challenging the truth of the sentiment but only wondering if it did or didn't have a different weight depending on if Jesus said it on the day or not because it's a supremely important passage. I currently can't really think what difference it would make but I'm curious about the possibility.
I think it was well said in any case. I wasnt affrming it in connection to your post. I was affirming it as a statement about the scriptures in general. It is a firmly established foundation of this site that " All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Quote from: marie glen on August 03, 2016, 10:56:22 PM
:thumbsup: Oh yes.. I was agreeing with and applauding about how God's Word is our rule(r) for truth, the measure for what is truth and what isn't.. that being said we believers do disagree on what it says at times and in particular places.. Nothing wrong with that! I'm sure we are all right, and not quite as right, about many things.. I have no doubt I will have to amend my thoughts on some, if not many things :mshock: :doh: on that perfect day.. :gsmile:
No, doubt. When we learn what things we think are right are what are wrong.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 04, 2016, 12:08:28 AM
Quote from: CST on August 03, 2016, 07:19:54 PM
It's only well said if Herchel understood what i was saying when I asked him a question about something that when i explained to you you called 'interesting' the Bible records God's instruction to us in the forms of many different forms of literature one of those is history. At the point in John that was being cited there is a question mark over what the historical truth is as to what Jesus said to Nicodemus on that day, the Bible doesn't tell us clearly because it doesn't include the necessary punctuation to make it clear. I continue to be unsure if I might be able to read to scene differently knowing whether or not Jesus said the last part to Nicodemus on that day, I don't know if their are people who have interpretations of the scene that depend on one or other situation being true.
I was challenging the truth of the sentiment but only wondering if it did or didn't have a different weight depending on if Jesus said it on the day or not because it's a supremely important passage. I currently can't really think what difference it would make but I'm curious about the possibility.
I think it was well said in any case. I wasnt affrming it in connection to your post. I was affirming it as a statement about the scriptures in general. It is a firmly established foundation of this site that " All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Hmm, fine. However I am confident Herschel was responding to what I was saying. Unfortunately I'm not entirely sure what he was trying to say except disagree with me and I suspect he didn't know what I was actually saying due to lack of the background.
I've always wondered when I read that passage how we're supposed to know what is scripture and what is Scripture. Obviously Paul was referring to certain religious works, probably no Gospels as they hadn't been written yet and probably none of his epistles either. The Old Testament is presumably what he meant but that obviously doesn't exclude all other texts.
The big question, it seems, is whether God is going to save even those who haven't accepted and received Jesus as their Lord. My main interest is in truth and rightly applying the word of God. Did Jesus die for ALL men? Of course He did! The scriptures tell us, (the key to that is "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") (John 3:16) But what about the "whosoever"'s who do not believe in Him? Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Well, Herschel is a man. It is our responsibility to heed the instructions of Christ and make sure that "no man deceive us. It is my responsibility to make sure that I can back what I say up with scripture, and deceive no man, but to speak the truth of God as it is WRITTEN, and NOT of my own "interpretation". I have learned in my 74 years, and scripturally so, that the Word of God confirms itself, and it literally, will interpret itself, if we will seek and ask God for the truth and trust Him for it. Then, if we will continue in the Word of God in order to learn the truth and renew our minds. Jesus says that If I will continue in His word I will be His disciple indeed. I will know the truth, and the truth will make me free.
The Word of God tells us to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. If God tells us something in one place in the scriptures, He will confirm that to us in another place in the scriptures, thereby "interpreting", and confirming His word to us. 1 John 2:26-27 says, "These things have I written unto you concerning then that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." This "anointing" John speaks of here is the Holy Spirit.
A confirmation of 1 John 2: 26-27 (written by the Apostle, John) is found in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Here, rather than calling it the "anointing" The Apostle Paul identifies that "anointing" as "his Spirit" i.e., The Holy Spirit. And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which thing also we speak, not in the words that mans wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul goes on to say, in the last sentence of verse 16, "But we have the mind of Christ". If we have Christ's mind, it behooves us to use that, and not lean to our own understanding. These letters, written by Paul and by John, are written to CHRISTIANS. To you, and to me if it be that we have accepted Christ as our Lord.
If we are Christ's, and if we will continue in His word, and if we will seek, knock and ask God for the truth, then, according to the Word of God, we SHALL know the truth, and the truth WILL make us free.
If we would KNOW, that we KNOW that we know, then we must look for the revelation of that thing from the Holy Spirit, the "anointing" of God. Once the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you, there is no doubt as to what the truth is, and NO MAN can convince you that it isn't true.
I have found no place in scripture where God tells us, through His Word, that He will save all mankind through a "refining" in the lake of fire. Nor do I find where any man comes out of the lake of fire "refined". I do find, in Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Again, in Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It only stands to reason, that if (Rev. 20:10) "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into that same lake of fire, will they too not likewise be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever?
We serve a good, an awesome and a loving God who gave His only begotten Son to die in our place. This same God has given and continues to give us EVERY opportunity to be reconciled back to Him. We make our choice here. Those who died before Christ were preached to by the ultimate Evangelist, Jesus Christ Himself. He openly defeated Satan and took the keys to the kingdom from him and gave those keys to we who acknowledge and confess Him. We too, like Adam, have the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or, to eat of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ himself. It is our choice, it our "free will" option. As for me and my house, we choose Jesus Christ, and Life more abundant!
I love your thinking and the use of scripture, Herschel. I too believe the Word of God confirms its own self. And I too can only believe the Word, and something once the Spirit of God shows it and says amen to it.. I do however, also believe "God is the savior of all" (1 Tim 4:10) and "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord" (Ps 22:27). When? I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me during judgment 'day'. I made an image of what I believe the Spirit and the Word reveal about this - (2nd image on the page) - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html - that the ancient fall holy days are a shadow and outline of His long 2nd advent like the spring ones were of His first.
I've never been taught by men how to read the Bible, and for that I'm glad (monastic in nature). I believe the idea God could lose any thing or anyone cannot be true, for His Word says He is perfect and all knowing and almighty. Because I believe by the end of judgment 'day' and after being resurrected, all will "believe", repent and thus be written in the book of life - "every knee shall bend". And so I don't believe any humans go to the lake of fire/2nd death. Those of Rev chapter 19, being, I believe institutions of man "active" at the time of His return. Any doctrine which does not fully glorify His pristine character and ability, I do not believe can be true.
And only because of God's Word do I believe "immortal soul" cannot be true. For it was the serpent who said surely you won't die? but God said, "thou art dust". And Ecclesiastes 9:10 says in sheol there is neither thought nor doing.. therefore the idea of death as another form of living does not ring true to me but smacks of the belief of all those pagan nations.. which too, had the first gloomy 'afterlife', even fiery in Egypt thought. "if I am lifted up from the earth" Jesus said, "I will draw all to me" Jn 12:32. And so very many more verses...
God bless you, dear one! I greatly admire your approach.. and faith!
[U.R. like any other doctrine needs a very clear presentation and defense/support. A little leaven (error) can leaven the whole lump.]
Quote from: Herschel on August 05, 2016, 07:30:13 PM
The big question, it seems, is whether God is going to save even those who haven't accepted and received Jesus as their Lord. My main interest is in truth and rightly applying the word of God. Did Jesus die for ALL men? Of course He did! The scriptures tell us, (the key to that is "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") (John 3:16) But what about the "whosoever"'s who do not believe in Him? Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Well, Herschel is a man. It is our responsibility to heed the instructions of Christ and make sure that "no man deceive us. It is my responsibility to make sure that I can back what I say up with scripture, and deceive no man, but to speak the truth of God as it is WRITTEN, and NOT of my own "interpretation". I have learned in my 74 years, and scripturally so, that the Word of God confirms itself, and it literally, will interpret itself, if we will seek and ask God for the truth and trust Him for it. Then, if we will continue in the Word of God in order to learn the truth and renew our minds. Jesus says that If I will continue in His word I will be His disciple indeed. I will know the truth, and the truth will make me free.
The Word of God tells us to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. If God tells us something in one place in the scriptures, He will confirm that to us in another place in the scriptures, thereby "interpreting", and confirming His word to us. 1 John 2:26-27 says, "These things have I written unto you concerning then that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." This "anointing" John speaks of here is the Holy Spirit.
A confirmation of 1 John 2: 26-27 (written by the Apostle, John) is found in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Here, rather than calling it the "anointing" The Apostle Paul identifies that "anointing" as "his Spirit" i.e., The Holy Spirit. And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which thing also we speak, not in the words that mans wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul goes on to say, in the last sentence of verse 16, "But we have the mind of Christ". If we have Christ's mind, it behooves us to use that, and not lean to our own understanding. These letters, written by Paul and by John, are written to CHRISTIANS. To you, and to me if it be that we have accepted Christ as our Lord.
If we are Christ's, and if we will continue in His word, and if we will seek, knock and ask God for the truth, then, according to the Word of God, we SHALL know the truth, and the truth WILL make us free.
If we would KNOW, that we KNOW that we know, then we must look for the revelation of that thing from the Holy Spirit, the "anointing" of God. Once the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you, there is no doubt as to what the truth is, and NO MAN can convince you that it isn't true.
I have found no place in scripture where God tells us, through His Word, that He will save all mankind through a "refining" in the lake of fire. Nor do I find where any man comes out of the lake of fire "refined". I do find, in Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Again, in Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It only stands to reason, that if (Rev. 20:10) "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into that same lake of fire, will they too not likewise be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever?
We serve a good, an awesome and a loving God who gave His only begotten Son to die in our place. This same God has given and continues to give us EVERY opportunity to be reconciled back to Him. We make our choice here. Those who died before Christ were preached to by the ultimate Evangelist, Jesus Christ Himself. He openly defeated Satan and took the keys to the kingdom from him and gave those keys to we who acknowledge and confess Him. We too, like Adam, have the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or, to eat of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ himself. It is our choice, it our "free will" option. As for me and my house, we choose Jesus Christ, and Life more abundant!
I'm not sure I understand you here as you seem to be arguing against yourself. As Glenda points out there are many places in the Bible where it declares the salvation of all men by God. You say two or three is enough for confirmation and there's plenty more verses than that which confirm UR.
Conversely, you imagine that if it says the three monsters will be tormented day and night forever and ever why not the humans cast in with them? But the confirmation on that is a lot weaker than that which says God saves all. Maybe whatever happens to them in the Lake of Fire will be part of the process that torments the three monsters.
I should also point out that it's easy to say that we should speak the truth as written and not of our own interpretation but this doesn't work in practice. We only know how to read what is written because we have been taught how to interpret the written word both those lessons in school and lessons in life, there's no such thing as reading the written word without interpreting it somehow. And not necessarily correctly especially when it's not in the first language.
Quote from: CST on August 06, 2016, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: Herschel on August 05, 2016, 07:30:13 PM
The big question, it seems, is whether God is going to save even those who haven't accepted and received Jesus as their Lord. My main interest is in truth and rightly applying the word of God. Did Jesus die for ALL men? Of course He did! The scriptures tell us, (the key to that is "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") (John 3:16) But what about the "whosoever"'s who do not believe in Him? Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Well, Herschel is a man. It is our responsibility to heed the instructions of Christ and make sure that "no man deceive us. It is my responsibility to make sure that I can back what I say up with scripture, and deceive no man, but to speak the truth of God as it is WRITTEN, and NOT of my own "interpretation". I have learned in my 74 years, and scripturally so, that the Word of God confirms itself, and it literally, will interpret itself, if we will seek and ask God for the truth and trust Him for it. Then, if we will continue in the Word of God in order to learn the truth and renew our minds. Jesus says that If I will continue in His word I will be His disciple indeed. I will know the truth, and the truth will make me free.
The Word of God tells us to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. If God tells us something in one place in the scriptures, He will confirm that to us in another place in the scriptures, thereby "interpreting", and confirming His word to us. 1 John 2:26-27 says, "These things have I written unto you concerning then that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." This "anointing" John speaks of here is the Holy Spirit.
A confirmation of 1 John 2: 26-27 (written by the Apostle, John) is found in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Here, rather than calling it the "anointing" The Apostle Paul identifies that "anointing" as "his Spirit" i.e., The Holy Spirit. And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which thing also we speak, not in the words that mans wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul goes on to say, in the last sentence of verse 16, "But we have the mind of Christ". If we have Christ's mind, it behooves us to use that, and not lean to our own understanding. These letters, written by Paul and by John, are written to CHRISTIANS. To you, and to me if it be that we have accepted Christ as our Lord.
If we are Christ's, and if we will continue in His word, and if we will seek, knock and ask God for the truth, then, according to the Word of God, we SHALL know the truth, and the truth WILL make us free.
If we would KNOW, that we KNOW that we know, then we must look for the revelation of that thing from the Holy Spirit, the "anointing" of God. Once the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you, there is no doubt as to what the truth is, and NO MAN can convince you that it isn't true.
I have found no place in scripture where God tells us, through His Word, that He will save all mankind through a "refining" in the lake of fire. Nor do I find where any man comes out of the lake of fire "refined". I do find, in Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Again, in Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It only stands to reason, that if (Rev. 20:10) "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into that same lake of fire, will they too not likewise be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever?
We serve a good, an awesome and a loving God who gave His only begotten Son to die in our place. This same God has given and continues to give us EVERY opportunity to be reconciled back to Him. We make our choice here. Those who died before Christ were preached to by the ultimate Evangelist, Jesus Christ Himself. He openly defeated Satan and took the keys to the kingdom from him and gave those keys to we who acknowledge and confess Him. We too, like Adam, have the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or, to eat of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ himself. It is our choice, it our "free will" option. As for me and my house, we choose Jesus Christ, and Life more abundant!
I'm not sure I understand you here as you seem to be arguing against yourself. As Glenda points out there are many places in the Bible where it declares the salvation of all men by God. You say two or three is enough for confirmation and there's plenty more verses than that which confirm UR.
Conversely, you imagine that if it says the three monsters will be tormented day and night forever and ever why not the humans cast in with them? But the confirmation on that is a lot weaker than that which says God saves all. Maybe whatever happens to them in the Lake of Fire will be part of the process that torments the three monsters.
I should also point out that it's easy to say that we should speak the truth as written and not of our own interpretation but this doesn't work in practice. We only know how to read what is written because we have been taught how to interpret the written word both those lessons in school and lessons in life, there's no such thing as reading the written word without interpreting it somehow. And not necessarily correctly especially when it's not in the first language.
What did Jesus do when to Satan tempted Him? He quoted Scripture as it was written. Jesus' reply to Satan to counter the temptations were, "IT IS WRITTEN", then He spoke the scriptures, and defeated Satan at his own game with the Word of God. Jesus gives us this authority now. We are able to defeat Satan with the Word of God. Jesus has returned our original authority over the earth that Adam gave to Satan, if we only will acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. Perhaps I digress, but I thought it was important that this be said.
I know this! Jesus Christ is Lord, I am washed in His blood. Believers in Christ are the righteous of God in Christ Jesus. We cannot accept Christ for anyone else. Whether I believe that God will refine and cleanse those who lost in a lake of fire or not, really doesn't matter because what I believe doesn't matter or change God's preordained plan, it only changes MY destiny. Jesus Christ is real. I don't just believe it, I KNOW IT! It is The Holy Spirit who calls us to Him. It is the Blood of Christ that saves us and washes us. If I know that I am saved, reconciled to God and washed in the blood of Christ, then I know that because I believe, the works that Jesus did, I SHOULD DO ALSO! John 14:12
How many times have I had to say to myself and to God, "Father, what is YOUR truth? These people say this, those people say that, but Lord God, I need YOUR answer. Please reveal YOUR truth concerning this matter, to me? Father you have told me not to follow or chase after men, for you are with me.....................Well, Father God, No matter what other men say, you haven't let me down yet! If we truly seek HIM, and HIS TRUTH, and it isn't meant to be a mystery to us, God will reveal HIS truth to us. In the meantime, I just have to trust His Word in Ephesians 4:11-16, "that through apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors; and teachers, His goal is for us to be perfected. We are edify the body of Christ; Till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."
Evidently, we,............... those of us who believe, even the Bride of Christ, haven't reached that point yet, because we still disagree on too many things? I say unto the Church, to the Bride of Christ, Are we TRULY of the Bride of Christ, or, are we deceiving our own selves? Why is it that there is any question? We seriously need to think about this question, and ask, and seek, and knock for the door to be opened, and that almighty GOD might give us HIS answer. Remember the miracles of God wrought by the Apostles and the Church in the book of Acts. The baptism of the Holy Spirit came when the 120 disciples were ALL in the upper room, ALL of one mind, and ALL of one accord. It is when the Bride of Christ, the Church, is all together, of one mind and of one accord that the Holy Spirit moves and miracles are accomplished. Matthew 18:19-20 " Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Heavenly Father, I ask you in Jesus name, WHERE IS THE CHURCH OF THE BOOK OF ACTS? USE US DEAR FATHER TO BRING BACK THIS CHURCH! USE US DEAR FATHER TO DO YOUR WILL ON EARTH, AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN! USE US DEAR LORD AND HEAVENLY FATHER! WE ASK THIS IN THE NAME, AND UNDER THE BLOOD OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST! AMEN!
Oh I surely do echo and agree with that prayer!!
It is a belief (wonder?) of mine, if there isn't a seal on the forehead to go along with the seal on our heart which cries "abba Father, my Father!" in rev. chapter seven.. Now I know the great crowd from every nation, etc, is not as noticed as the 144,000 from Israel - you will not see Me again, Jerusalem, until you say"blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" - "if their falling away is salvation for the nations, what shall their gathering be but life from the dead?" (Resurrection/His return!)
Wouldn't that be awesome? Sealed upon the forehead with God's Holy Spirit? Which surely, should be, 100% clarity?
"Til we all meet in the perfection of the saints.."
Mightn't that possibly include a light upon all doctrine strongly held to, whether new or long lived..? It seems to me there is imperfection in the church.. Not surprising to me, as the good news has been handed down through human hands for 2000 years.. And the body of believers made up of humans.. Not surprising to me if we have lost some of the glory of the message.. And even picked up some baggage along the way. (Which I humbly, cannot help but wonder if, or equate with, the Gnostics which were sorta overrunning the church even in the apistle's and Paul's day.. Capitol of being those churches in Asia/Turkey..?) so I researched the notions of "immortal soul" (inherent immortality vs? putting on immortality at His return; and the extension of that, an eternal hell..
Psalm 22:27 - Remember and return to Jehovah, do all the ends of the earth, and before thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Young's Literal Translation
God bless!!
You know, I hear preachers say "God is awesome, he is good, he loves us" and then say "God has a place prepared, a burning hell, to torture his children which he loves so much". They don't say the last words exactly like that but actually that is what they mean. The Bible says " God loves us much more than we can ever love our children. If this is so, how many parents who love their children would build a fire to burn their children in forever while they are begging for mercy? Pray tell, how can this be?
If every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and it also says "no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit". These people that are bowing and confessing and burning is doing so by the Holy Spirit. Also it says that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. How do you who believe in hell explain this?
Oh, I pray for the day when all will know the truth.
CHB
Amen! Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree:
I have yet to find a scripture that indicates that salvation is by chance, or the choice of man.
What I have found, are scriptures that establish salvation as from God alone, and scriptures that indicate He is both willing and able to save all.
Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and to seek and save that which is lost. For Him to be triumphant is for Him to succeed in those aims. To call Him victorious otherwise is to call a 62-6 loss in football a great victory.
CHB and Shev:
Amen! Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree: :iagree:
Very good responses :iagree:
Quote from: Shev on August 07, 2016, 12:38:11 AM
I have yet to find a scripture that indicates that salvation is by chance, or the choice of man.
What I have found, are scriptures that establish salvation as from God alone, and scriptures that indicate He is both willing and able to save all.
Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and to seek and save that which is lost. For Him to be triumphant is for Him to succeed in those aims. To call Him victorious otherwise is to call a 62-6 loss in football a great victory.
If there is no scripture indicating that salvation is by the choice of man in choosing to believe and confess the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing in ones heart that God has raised Him from the dead so that he might be saved, what is Romans 10:9-10? And if it is Gods plan to save every soul, regardless of whether they confess Jesus as Lord or not, but rather "refine" them in the lake of fire so that they will bow their knee to Christ regardless? What was Gods purpose in cruelly sending Christ to die a horrible and inhumane death on a cross after a horrendous bout of cruelty and inhumane torture? This makes Christ's sacrifice for all of mankind of no effect. God was going to save the whole world and all of mankind regardless. The thief on the cross didn't need Jesus, because God was going to save him anyway!
What of Ezekiel 18:1-32? What of 2 Peter 2;20-22; What of 2 Peter 3:9? If God is going to save us anyway, what is the need of repentance? Why do I need to be "found of him in peace, without spot and blameless"? 2 Peter 3:14 If God was going to save us all anyway, why the charade in the Garden of Eden? If Gods plan was to save all mankind regardless, why did he cruelly drown the entire world and save just Noah and his family? If God was going to save everyone anyway, then none of the bible makes any sense. If anyone can answer these questions, I am listening. I already know that I am not Jewish, so I won't be among the 144,000. So I guess I will have to be among the "multitude which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues who stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robe and palms in our hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:13-14; And one of the elders answered , saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The Bible makes it quite clear that washing ones robes in the blood of the Lamb is by our acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ for who he is, and what he has done for us. There is none other name under heaven by which men might be saved and there is none other way under heaven by which men must be saved other than through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God and by his death on a cross, burial, and His resurrection from the dead, Our belief in Him, our confession of Him, and the belief in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead! To do this, is to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. The blood of Jesus is the only way to salvation. PERIOD! It is our dip in the blood of Jesus that hides our sin from God. No dip in the lake of fire can destroy our sin, nor hide it from God. As a matter of fact, It will be unconfessed sin and the failure to repent thereof that will put non believers into the lake of fire. Jesus said; "You must be born again".
I call upon the name, and the blood, of Jesus Christ! I confess Him as my Lord and Savior! I believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead! Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings! AMEN!
As for Romans 10:9-10, it is cause and effect. Our will is involved in salvation as effect, but God's will is the cause - "for it is God who works in your to will and to do for His good pleasure". Remember John wrote about those born NOT of the will of man, NOR of the will of the flesh, but of God? And that Jesus said "No man comes to me unless the Father who sent me draws Him"? And that faith is a gift, so that salvation is not of ourselves, "lest any man should boast?"
I am not sure why people need to go to hell for there to be a point to salvation? To me, Christ saving ALL is a greater, more far reaching victory...one which will lead to both death and enmity being destroyed..."for the last enemy to be destroyed is death".
Herschel,
You are right saying this:
"The Bible makes it quite clear that washing ones robes in the blood of the Lamb is by our acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ for who he is, and what he has done for us. There is none other name under heaven by which men might be saved and there is none other way under heaven by which men must be saved other than through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God and by his death on a cross, burial, and His resurrection from the dead, Our belief in Him, our confession of Him, and the belief in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead! To do this, is to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. The blood of Jesus is the only way to salvation. PERIOD! It is our dip in the blood of Jesus that hides our sin from God. No dip in the lake of fire can destroy our sin, nor hide it from God. As a matter of fact, It will be unconfessed sin and the failure to repent thereof that will put non believers into the lake of fire. Jesus said; "You must be born again".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Only thing is, as I said before, "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess". This will be done and everyone will be saved. Everyone will accept him eventually in their own time appointed.
God had a plan from the beginning. It is all about him and none of us.
If I may ask a question? If burning in hell is ones destination for sin why didn't Jesus have to endure it, wouldn't he have had to, to keep anyone out of hell? Or, are we going to hell for something else? Since that penalty has not been met,...Jesus didn't go there... and we all have sinned then stands to reason all will go to hell. If Jesus death paid for all sins what is hell for? Is it for unbelief? Isn't unbelief a sin and haven't all sins been paid for?
Well, maybe I should have said a few questions.
CHB
Amen, brother Shev and CHB.. and Hershal,
None are saved except by believing in Jesus! Never, no, never! There's only One Way to the Father..
But I believe, Hershal, that by time the end of Judgment 'Day' that most, if not all, will "believe".
I first started to believe this while prayerfully studying the Book of Revelation. And began to imagine what it might be like to be in the 2nd resurrection. I feel confident that you know this is a resurrection of all those who died without believing. First, i would experience being awoken from my grave. That in itself, would find me, suddenly "believing"!
Then i would witness surely(?) what would be a rather long day of the review of all human history. What better way to really drive home what it is He is teaching!? To those of the 2nd resurrection, to those who are His (reinforcement) and to all angels watching..
In short however - What does it take to be written in the book of life? And where does it say it can only be written into during this life only? And not during the (long?) Judgment 'Day'? Is to rise "still in one's sins" the end of the line and beyond God's ability? Why not simply not do the 2nd resurrection?
And, I now believe we are given an outline of the two ages following His return in Revelation chapter 20. Not passing so quickly as it may seem written, but an outline/peaks of.
:Peace2: God bless..
ET tends to venerate the will of the creation over the will of God, who would have all to be saved, but cannot because of His stubborn creation. (Of course there is also the Calvinist ET version, where God could, but does not want to).
UR tends to venerate the will of God over the will of the creation, as He "subjected it to futility, in hope", and by the counsel of His own will, and through the righteous act of His own Son, not only wrought salvation for all, but more importantly, made it so Jesus Christ shall be preeminent in ALL THINGS.
:thumbsup: :iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: Herschel on August 06, 2016, 08:06:39 PM
What did Jesus do when to Satan tempted Him? He quoted Scripture as it was written. Jesus' reply to Satan to counter the temptations were, "IT IS WRITTEN", then He spoke the scriptures, and defeated Satan at his own game with the Word of God. Jesus gives us this authority now. We are able to defeat Satan with the Word of God. Jesus has returned our original authority over the earth that Adam gave to Satan, if we only will acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. Perhaps I digress, but I thought it was important that this be said.
I know this! Jesus Christ is Lord, I am washed in His blood. Believers in Christ are the righteous of God in Christ Jesus. We cannot accept Christ for anyone else. Whether I believe that God will refine and cleanse those who lost in a lake of fire or not, really doesn't matter because what I believe doesn't matter or change God's preordained plan, it only changes MY destiny. Jesus Christ is real. I don't just believe it, I KNOW IT! It is The Holy Spirit who calls us to Him. It is the Blood of Christ that saves us and washes us. If I know that I am saved, reconciled to God and washed in the blood of Christ, then I know that because I believe, the works that Jesus did, I SHOULD DO ALSO! John 14:12
How many times have I had to say to myself and to God, "Father, what is YOUR truth? These people say this, those people say that, but Lord God, I need YOUR answer. Please reveal YOUR truth concerning this matter, to me? Father you have told me not to follow or chase after men, for you are with me.....................Well, Father God, No matter what other men say, you haven't let me down yet! If we truly seek HIM, and HIS TRUTH, and it isn't meant to be a mystery to us, God will reveal HIS truth to us. In the meantime, I just have to trust His Word in Ephesians 4:11-16, "that through apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors; and teachers, His goal is for us to be perfected. We are edify the body of Christ; Till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."
Evidently, we,............... those of us who believe, even the Bride of Christ, haven't reached that point yet, because we still disagree on too many things? I say unto the Church, to the Bride of Christ, Are we TRULY of the Bride of Christ, or, are we deceiving our own selves? Why is it that there is any question? We seriously need to think about this question, and ask, and seek, and knock for the door to be opened, and that almighty GOD might give us HIS answer. Remember the miracles of God wrought by the Apostles and the Church in the book of Acts. The baptism of the Holy Spirit came when the 120 disciples were ALL in the upper room, ALL of one mind, and ALL of one accord. It is when the Bride of Christ, the Church, is all together, of one mind and of one accord that the Holy Spirit moves and miracles are accomplished. Matthew 18:19-20 " Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Heavenly Father, I ask you in Jesus name, WHERE IS THE CHURCH OF THE BOOK OF ACTS? USE US DEAR FATHER TO BRING BACK THIS CHURCH! USE US DEAR FATHER TO DO YOUR WILL ON EARTH, AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN! USE US DEAR LORD AND HEAVENLY FATHER! WE ASK THIS IN THE NAME, AND UNDER THE BLOOD OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST! AMEN!
Quite, 'Man shall shall not live by bread alone but by every word but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' (Matt. 4:4) A very important quote it sets up the whole rest of the exchange and is probably one of the reasons both Matthew and Luke use it first, even though Luke doesn't finish the quote so it's mainly Matthew.
'And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know;
that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but that man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Deut. 8:3)
Not quite the same, is it? Still I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect to always remember the text word for word but it does slightly reduce your argument He quoted everything 'as written'. because He cited it loosely but not perfectly it seems. But that seems to be splitting hairs I can't see much of a difference. Too be fair, on reflection this could simply and quite probably be demonstrating a discrepancy of the Septuagint that's the Greek Translation of the Old Testament which the Jews of Jesus' day used and knew rather better than the Hebrew ones. Which is a bit of a problem when you want to talk about the quoting the Bible, as written, because there's no such thing. There's just an awful lot of old documents that we imagine are translations of several first documents that disagree on numerous points on what they're meant to say including whether or not the original text had the divine name at certain points of other points. The only reason we can compile the Bible at all is that we have a lot of these texts and they tend to agree far more than they disagree, they're still a huge number of discrepancies and no real way to know which is the correct original.
Of course, the Devil quotes scripture too at one point. 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.' (Matt. 4:6) The Devil is clearly doing what the Devil does and trying to pervert the truth here but, that said, having been used for this temptation it's unclear how this verse of scripture plays anywhere.
And I agree that we can't accept Christ for anyone else (although there's the Baptism for the dead thing which is strange) but have to wonder why say you think it doesn't matter if you believe God will cleanse those in the Lake of Fire. If so than why are you here? It obviously matters to you on some level or you wouldn't be here challenging us about it.
Good, your asking the right question, the 'What is truth?' question I mentioned in the other thread. I'm being flippant about this Pilate asking that question is probably the most important statement by someone who doesn't serve Jesus in the Bible. And if you read what I'd put (I don't know if you did) which I hadn't actually finished you should understand that John makes 24 statements in his Gospel to answer that question and one to ask it.
There's a rather famous quote in the Western world now from a film I've not seen the nub of it which declares. "You can't handle the truth!" The story of God in the Bible seems to be that an awful lot of people can't handle the truth, God tells Adam not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He's persuaded to ignore that truth and eats from the tree. Lot and his family are told not to look back as they flee from Sodom and Gomorrah, his wife disbelieves... oh, dear. The Bible is full of things like this and then is the Gospels like St. John's Gospel, God sends His Son, who claims to be the Truth. The living actual Truth. And the people have so much trouble receiving and handling this Truth, are so threatened by it they conspire to murder God's Son our Lord Jesus. Which I think is part of the answer to you other question.
That's a strong post though from a clearly passionate believer. The ending is certainly a valid question although you should no there's a case against the word 'Church' often made on Tentmaker because it's believed to have a pagan origin. I haven't decided how much I care about this yet.
Quote from: Herschel on August 07, 2016, 07:36:31 PM
Quote from: Shev on August 07, 2016, 12:38:11 AM
I have yet to find a scripture that indicates that salvation is by chance, or the choice of man.
What I have found, are scriptures that establish salvation as from God alone, and scriptures that indicate He is both willing and able to save all.
Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, and to seek and save that which is lost. For Him to be triumphant is for Him to succeed in those aims. To call Him victorious otherwise is to call a 62-6 loss in football a great victory.
If there is no scripture indicating that salvation is by the choice of man in choosing to believe and confess the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing in ones heart that God has raised Him from the dead so that he might be saved, what is Romans 10:9-10? And if it is Gods plan to save every soul, regardless of whether they confess Jesus as Lord or not, but rather "refine" them in the lake of fire so that they will bow their knee to Christ regardless? What was Gods purpose in cruelly sending Christ to die a horrible and inhumane death on a cross after a horrendous bout of cruelty and inhumane torture? This makes Christ's sacrifice for all of mankind of no effect. God was going to save the whole world and all of mankind regardless. The thief on the cross didn't need Jesus, because God was going to save him anyway!
What of Ezekiel 18:1-32? What of 2 Peter 2;20-22; What of 2 Peter 3:9? If God is going to save us anyway, what is the need of repentance? Why do I need to be "found of him in peace, without spot and blameless"? 2 Peter 3:14 If God was going to save us all anyway, why the charade in the Garden of Eden? If Gods plan was to save all mankind regardless, why did he cruelly drown the entire world and save just Noah and his family? If God was going to save everyone anyway, then none of the bible makes any sense. If anyone can answer these questions, I am listening. I already know that I am not Jewish, so I won't be among the 144,000. So I guess I will have to be among the "multitude which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues who stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robe and palms in our hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:13-14; And one of the elders answered , saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The Bible makes it quite clear that washing ones robes in the blood of the Lamb is by our acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ for who he is, and what he has done for us. There is none other name under heaven by which men might be saved and there is none other way under heaven by which men must be saved other than through Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God and by his death on a cross, burial, and His resurrection from the dead, Our belief in Him, our confession of Him, and the belief in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead! To do this, is to wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb. The blood of Jesus is the only way to salvation. PERIOD! It is our dip in the blood of Jesus that hides our sin from God. No dip in the lake of fire can destroy our sin, nor hide it from God. As a matter of fact, It will be unconfessed sin and the failure to repent thereof that will put non believers into the lake of fire. Jesus said; "You must be born again".
I call upon the name, and the blood, of Jesus Christ! I confess Him as my Lord and Savior! I believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead! Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings! AMEN!
The question of why Jesus had to die and why God sent Him can't be answered in relation to God's intentions to otherwise let everyone perish if He doesn't God's capability to save doesn't depend on the sacrifice of Jesus or that would suggest that God is somehow beholden to Satan. That Satan has somehow bested Him and now He has to come up with some mechanism whereby He can save a small number of the people Satan has caught if they choose to escape. God didn't send Jesus to die. Or at least He didn't send Him purely to die as the way your phrasing it would seem to suggest. Remember God didn't kill Jesus we did. By our most monstrous mechanism because we're a monstrous species. Jesus came to save us but the way He died should stand to ever remind us why we need saving. There's loads of reasons for the crucifixion, that's just one that I can see.
Who is saying the events of the Garden of Eden were a charade, God gave a real warning with real consequences they just weren't consequences that were beyond His power to fix as the traditional doctrine would have us believe. Why the flood? Why not? If God had no concern for saving people than what was the point? Why not just let all the evil people live out their evil lives however long they are and they send them to Hell at the end. If God has no intent to save there's no real point of Him intervening at all.
I'm also of the opinion that the 144 000 aren't literally people from the House of Israel. There was a traditional belief that they were children as this would explain their virginity. But I'm not sure the 144 000 and the multitude are actually different I suspect they're just different way of saying the same thing but i'll have to recheck the details at some point. At present though it looks like a contradiction if they're different.
Again no one's arguing that they have to wash their robes in th blood of the lamb, which is a nice a paradoxical symbol. It technically suggests we don't have to wash our bodies and it also doesn't tell us where our robes came from and if they were filthy when we got them. The other question is against your assumption that the blood of the lamb and all opportunities to receive it stop at death, they don't or else their are statements of Jesus that make no sense.
Quote from: Shev on August 08, 2016, 03:08:42 AM
ET tends to venerate the will of the creation over the will of God, who would have all to be saved, but cannot because of His stubborn creation. (Of course there is also the Calvinist ET version, where God could, but does not want to).
UR tends to venerate the will of God over the will of the creation, as He "subjected it to futility, in hope", and by the counsel of His own will, and through the righteous act of His own Son, not only wrought salvation for all, but more importantly, made it so Jesus Christ shall be preeminent in ALL THINGS.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: Amen!
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 03:11:50 PM
The other question is against your assumption that the blood of the lamb and all opportunities to receive it stop at death..
Of your points CST I agree with this one the most.. and the rest of it,
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 03:11:50 PM
or else their are statements of Jesus that make no sense.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: that of course is not possible! I love how more and more we notice the many, many verses which support an all comprehensive totally victorious gospel - God's Great Plan of Salvation.. (Can one dare to believe it? God's total victory and supremacy?! Can we mortal, flawed creatures imagine an outcome better than He can?)