Does God drawing us to salvation violate our free will

[ask21771]

if God causes a change in us to draw us toward salvation doesn't that violate free will

[marie glen]

If so, I believe he will violate the free will of all, ultimately, able to reach every heart.. I don't think of it so much as free-will, but as choice.. or that is the ability to make choices.. which I believe He is letting run its course.. I really figure the only reason I believe, is because He does the choosing and it was a lucky heavenly throw of the dice.. Needing different players in this, his truth proving drama..?

[ask21771]

If God enlightened everyone's mind to the truth would all accept it and change?

[ask21771]

If God wanted to make the world perfect and he did so by revealing himself and threatening everyone with hell if they didn't embrace the holly spirit, would it work?

[Shev]

The scriptures nowhere say we had a free will unto salvation. Mankind has a will, but it is not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death. The irony of all this "free will" talk is that instead of God violating our "free will", He actually set us free from our previous bondage!

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,  6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.  7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:5-7)

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?  17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. (Romans 6:16-17)

There is no freedom in sin or death. There was therefore no freedom to violate, rather a freedom to accomplish.

[marie glen]

If God wanted to make the world perfect and he did so by revealing himself and threatening everyone with hell if they didn't embrace the holly spirit, would it work?

No i don't think so!!  :laugh:

The scriptures nowhere say we had a free will unto salvation. Mankind has a will, but it is not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death.

That is especially true!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The irony of all this "free will" talk is that instead of God violating our "free will", He actually set us free from our previous bondage!

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,  6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.  7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:5-7)

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?  17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. (Romans 6:16-17)

There is no freedom in sin or death. There was therefore no freedom to violate, rather a freedom to accomplish.

...amen!! There was only freedom to give..! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[anti_nietzsche]

God created salvation without our consent. Our consent to God's doing is an act of righteousness. If we don't consent, that is a sin that is covered by the cross. It is a bif of a mystery - how does God save us without assaulting our freedom? Yet that is because we don't normally have a good vision of our freedom. God is coming to liberate us, that is part of the story of the bible which has examples like Israel being delivered from Egypt or the example of Israel being restored to the Holy Land after having been deported to Babylon. But since Christ's cross, the whole of mankind is Israel, as the cross and the will of the Jesus Christ who died on it, counts for the whole world. The old difference between Israel and the world has been abolished. God acts through love and forgiveness and exercising the justice of faithfulness. It is more about Christ's faith than our faith.

[Lazarus Short]

If God wanted to make the world perfect and he did so by revealing himself and threatening everyone with hell if they didn't embrace the holly spirit, would it work?

Would it interest you to know that God nowhere in the pages of Scripture, threatens anyone with death Hell?  If anyone thinks otherwise, they'd better start digging...

[Patinak]

If God wanted to make the world perfect and he did so by revealing himself and threatening everyone with hell if they didn't embrace the holly spirit, would it work?

Would it interest you to know that God nowhere in the pages of Scripture, threatens anyone with death?  If anyone thinks otherwise, they'd better start digging...

Laz, you do mean 'hell' not 'death' in your question, right?

[micah7:9]

The scriptures nowhere say we had a free will unto salvation. Mankind has a will, but it is not free, but in bondage to the law of sin and death. The irony of all this "free will" talk is that instead of God violating our "free will", He actually set us free from our previous bondage!

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,  6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.  7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:5-7)

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?  17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. (Romans 6:16-17)

There is no freedom in sin or death. There was therefore no freedom to violate, rather a freedom to accomplish.

:thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

If God wanted to make the world perfect and he did so by revealing himself and threatening everyone with hell if they didn't embrace the holly spirit, would it work?

Would it interest you to know that God nowhere in the pages of Scripture, threatens anyone with death?  If anyone thinks otherwise, they'd better start digging...

Laz, you do mean 'hell' not 'death' in your question, right?

:doh: Yes, I meant "hell."  Thanks for the heads-up!  :footmouth:

I'll go back and see if I can fix that...

[eaglesway]

However, Jesus does warn people about aionian kolassis(correction) and aionian pyr(fire).

[anti_nietzsche]

I translate aionian as "enduring", something is being experienced that will not end until it ends. Like, an enduring rainfall. Aionian life is a life that endures forever because won't stop to end that enduring llife. Enduring punishment stops eventually when its purpose is completed. God is love and simply cannot punish someone forever because that would go against his nature. Aionian kolasis stops when the evil from a person has been pruned off. Aionian fire stops when the evil of a person has been burned away. Aionian life doesn't stop and actually is part of aionian kolasis - the person who is pruned is also living forever. We can plead for God's mercy in the same time we are being punished. Jesus is the advocate not just of the righteous but also of the unrighteous. He is more faithful than us and on the cross decided to forgive everyone.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

God created salvation without our consent. Our consent to God's doing is an act of righteousness. If we don't consent, that is a sin that is covered by the cross. It is a bif of a mystery - how does God save us without assaulting our freedom? Yet that is because we don't normally have a good vision of our freedom. God is coming to liberate us, that is part of the story of the bible which has examples like Israel being delivered from Egypt or the example of Israel being restored to the Holy Land after having been deported to Babylon. But since Christ's cross, the whole of mankind is Israel, as the cross and the will of the Jesus Christ who died on it, counts for the whole world. The old difference between Israel and the world has been abolished. God acts through love and forgiveness and exercising the justice of faithfulness. It is more about Christ's faith than our faith.

Agreed, we also must remember that Lord Jesus told his disciples that he chose them, not the other way around. Thankfully God is the one on the throne, not us. We may think we know what is best for ourselves but ultimately God knows what is best for all of us. That is why we must trust him at all times.

[eaglesway]

The superiority of love, compared with self-centeredness, will eventually manifest in such kindness that even the wickedest soul will eventually be "drawn" into the light. There could only be so far into darkness that one may go before one must recognize the need to go the other wat, because there is nothing there in the drkness. It is the ultimate separation from all that gives lif meaning, so it must, eventually end.

Life and light and love, on the other hand- are always increasing. Filling all who taste it with relief and release and joy.

I think Christians get too caught up in the will thing  :laughing7:

"One thing I hav asked, that shall I also seek, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to meditate in His temple.

Jesus on that cross for me is so beautiful. No one could refuse forever. It is not about the actions but the essence. Darkness can not obscure such light indefintely.

"If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me."

[Ross]

I.M.O we have no say in our physical birth; where, when, how, why, gender, size, health, prosperity.... Does that make birth a choice?
The spiritual is greater than the physical.