Christ's law - what happens to divine judgment when the law of Moses is removed?

[anti_nietzsche]

Hello,

some of what I have read on UR online seems to say that there are awful divine punishments in the afterlife, only they would be limited in duration. I would now posit an alternative model.

We read in St Pauls epistles that the law of Moses has been done away with in Christ and His cross. It does not fit to a God who is love. And when the law is gone, then sin is dead again in us because God does not have many commandments to say that would be against us anymore. So when sin is dead, then there is no reason for God to punish someone. I think this concurs with the reality that those who die are freed of sin. This means, after death we are totally different beings, loving, kind, spiritual - because we do not have this earthly body anymore where evil is always remembered and which can get used to evil. After death this body is gone and we are spiritual beings entirely.

When the law of Moses has been replaced by Christ, then now love and forgiveness rule when we come to God. Judge not that you may not be judged, condemn not that you may not be condemned, forgive that you may be forgiven. So judgment and condemnation are actually against Jesus Christ. God proves Himself to be love. The law only causes arguments and anger. Just read it, it is full of many judgments and there is little in terms of rights, mercy and faith.

So when you come to Jesus, realize that He will certainly want to make you free again, living not in the mosaic law but in Christ's law of universal love!

[Dandelion]

I don't know about that, anti_nietzsche.

Yes, the Law was fulfilled by Christ, and the ultimate law is Love. Amen to that.

But, look at this passage in Matthew 5:

14You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a lampstand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Law convicts us, but the Gospel saves us.

I think Jesus was clear that He was not doing away with the Law, but had come to complete it.

We are not to judge, but God looks at our hearts.

1 Samuel 16:7:

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

And, to love, is not an easy thing. Look at these verses of Matthew 5:

38You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.'h 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well; 41and if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'i 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,j 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?

48Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.

I don't pretend to know how all this will play out, but, as far as the Law ending....it is completed, rather than ended, in my opinion.

D.

[anti_nietzsche]

Jesus spoke that about the law when he was not crucified, raised and glorified yet. The law and the prophets count until John, since then we speak of the kingdom of God and not of the law of Moses anymore. But maybe you mean the 10 commandments? The 10 commandments never loose their status because they are hewn in stone by God himself and describe the universal law of conscience. They don't come from Moses but from God. The handwritings can be changed and overwritten because they are written on paper, but the law on the tablets can't be changed because of being hewn in stone. That's what Jesus means with the jot and tittle that cannot be erased as ink and pen can't undo something written in stone. The "least" commandment refers to the smallest commandments in their phonetic sound, like "you shall not kill". But all these of the 10 commandments do not have divine punishments associated to them on the tablets. The handwriting of Moses has many ordinances to that end, but Paul said this handwriting has been cancelled:

Colossians 2

13And you — being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh — He made alive together with him, having forgiven you all the trespasses, 14having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;


Think about it. The law had an ordinance that adultery was to be punished with death and no sin offering could be made for it. But when the adulteress was brought to Jesus he said that he would not condemn her and set her free. If the law of Moses were valid in Christ then he would have sinned by forgiving the woman. But in Christ there is another law, the law of the spirit, and that is also known as the law of love because Christ recognizes two greatest commandments, the commandment to love God and your neighbor like yourself.

Additionally, Paul anyway saw the law as a prophecy pointing to Christ, not as a binding moral code. How can a God who is love stone, burn, hurt or otherwise kill a human when he is considered a righteous God who said, do not kill? That is how the law is only a shadow of things to come. A shadow means darkness, means unlight, the light is completely different. Jesus always obeys the commandment not to kill, that is his gentle nature.

[rosered]

  Hi Anti-nietzsche,

  I love what  dandelion shared , it is Christ whom fulfills the law  ,  He sure did deal with   being born of a woman  under law...   I do believe we try to do the law to the best of our abilities  and fail  , this makes us repent and begin our  asking the Lord to save us ,   Do we save ourselves , many would argue that they do .
  But I wonder if they are under the strong delusion of believing a LIE    ? 

CAN WE LOVE GOD if we don't even know God at all ?

  Think about  the first time you actually heard about God ?    Were we  wee little ones and heard a  word ? 

I dont think anyone  can even fathom the greatness of God while still being mortal  ,  I do believe we  taste it and it makes us want more of Him ..

I do think this life is but a vapor in Gods sight  and  in  the incubation period   in our youth   and it is all vanity and counts for nothing ,

that would mean no sins are held against us  , After all the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the WORLD    and not holding tresspasses against them , Jesus died for them all  ,

they did not have  heaven so open and available to them   , like it is for us now ,

    and it is in our part to   open the door for others to hear the good news  , I do believe we are being prepared for such a thing now! Paul wrote this over 2000 years ago ! But is it always a now thing for the reader to  have the seals of the book opened by the Lords mercy , it is the book of Life and it is heaven opened  for us   to understand

  Over 2000 years ago and that is just two days in Gods sight   Oh my , can we even grasp that much ?!!  ..   I do believe the carnal mind of the serpent has  twisted many things concerning the WORD OF GOD ,  Thus the great need for the Holy Spirit to teach us the TRUTH  and does this in Love    not contention  ...

2Cor  5 ...18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.


20Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God....




I like where Paul pointed out  where sin abounds grace abounds the more  ,  we have to remember that Revelations was the  DAY OF THE LORD  and it was Johns account  of it , given by the Holy Spirit    and in Revelations they are singing the song of Moses and the  song of the Lamb   as both are important ,,, we have  Deuteronomy 32 - The Song of Moses
  Song of the Lamb     has anyone heard His voice at any time ? , This is my beloved Son , hear Him !    We also know the  testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy     ,  so that is a big clue for us whom believe   right now and  heaven is open  for us to receive by the grace of God ,,,

Here was have Paul's  revelation also   bearing witness


Romans 5 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,


so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase;

but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,


21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord....

  That is quite  a powerful message  and should move us to    thinking   what a wonderful SAVIOR  JESUS CHRIST IS !!! :HeartThrob:

  HE is the savior of the world and  especilly to those whom believe , we have this comfort now , great comfort it is !     and know the Love of God is greater  than all His creations  moaning ....          :banana:

[anti_nietzsche]

When righteousness doesn't come from the law, where did Jesus' righteousness come from? I would say it was from love and kindness, and faith in His father. Jesus himself obeys the 10 commandments and doesn't commit adultery, theft or killing.

He acquitted the adulteress to show us how to handle sin, as far as possible, with forgiveness. And judge not so that you are not judged too, condemn not so you are not condemned, forgive so you would be forgiven.

We have a good Lord in Jesus and if we take away the law of Moses, then the remaining commandments of Jesus are not hard to follow. Don't have other gods before Jesus, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't make idols, honor your parents and don't covet your neighbor's belongings, don't take the name of God in vain and keep the Sabbath. There is no grief involved in these commandments. And then the two love commandments which are also without grief, because love inspires us to joy and happiness and because it is about love then it is mutual love and we can rest in the love of God.

There is no danger in being with God and the 10 commandments are obeyed largely even by muslims and atheists, so in terms of Christ's law of love there is not THAT much evil and sin on this world. We have all we need and only have to increase the love that is present on this world.

God bless you!

[Lazarus Short]

Those who were born and lived under the Law either died by a penalty of that Law, or by natural means, and went to the uncertain fate of Sheol.  God took away the Law and placed Christ in its place:  an advocate.  Not only that, but He will take away the Accuser just before the GWT judgment.  In current judicial terms, there are no charges to bring, the Defense Attorney is present, and the Prosecutor's chair is empty.  I interpret the whole process as works only being burned up.

[Dandelion]

I just want to clarify that I am not saying that the Law saves anyone, or brings them to righteousness.

We are saved by grace, through faith.

Ephesians 2:7 - 9

...7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast....

The Law tells us God's ideal.....which we are not able to do on our own......otherwise, we would have been in no need of a Savior.

But, Jesus' death and resurrection, secured our Salvation, as He bore the consequences of our sins.

And, of course, when Pentacost came, we then acquired the Holy Spirit to help guide us, through grace, to make sound decisions and to understand Scripture.

D.

[anti_nietzsche]

The law of Moses can't have been God's ideal because it is a law of anger and wrath and only partially contains good things. Jesus let the adulteress go free and behaved very differently. I do not think Jesus' purity and righteousness came from obeying the law of Moses fully, as this law brings only condemnation whereas Jesus came as a Savior. Instead Jesus only seems to have followed the 10 commandments and the two love commandments, He came as Lord over the laws and ordinances and held love and forgiveness as his banner. It is faith, hope and love which are the most important thing, not righteousness. The Jews were after righteousness but this only made them kill Jesus for the sake of their law. Nobody really has the right to kill anyone, except in true self defense. And even that is debatable if we consider Jesus' sermon of the Mount.

[rosered]

The law of Moses can't have been God's ideal because it is a law of anger and wrath and only partially contains good things. Jesus let the adulteress go free and behaved very differently. I do not think Jesus' purity and righteousness came from obeying the law of Moses fully, as this law brings only condemnation whereas Jesus came as a Savior. Instead Jesus only seems to have followed the 10 commandments and the two love commandments, He came as Lord over the laws and ordinances and held love and forgiveness as his banner. It is faith, hope and love which are the most important thing, not righteousness. The Jews were after righteousness but this only made them kill Jesus for the sake of their law. Nobody really has the right to kill anyone, except in true self defense. And even that is debatable if we consider Jesus' sermon of the Mount.

  I do believe  Both laws are in effect    , this being the heavenly law Life and peace as LOVE reigns ABOVE  and Supreme  !LIVING WATERS

and the one being the earthly law  given by Moses  /sin and death [as you judge as shall you be judged ] Waters turned to blood  , being the bloodshed  of the innocents  , keeping them from being born again and filling to spiritual  maturity .

THE WORD working in you is the standard    of the CROSS   ,   for me the Cross represents    going from death into  Life in Christ
  This is why Jesus asks  anyone to take up their cross and follow Him    :HeartThrob: :dsunny: newness of  Life
and the reason  Paul said , I  no know  nothing  but Jesus Christ and Him crucified from now on     , he had left that earthly   law of condemnation and death behind  him ,those  powers and principalities and elemental things     ,   as the blood of Jesus Christ  being the perfect sacrifice and covering    for all sin and atonement  and went   on to follow Life  in Christ  as a vessel  of  honor  pouring out   waters of Life freely  that  was granted  him  ..

  The law of sin and death are all about being  burned up   as a dry and parched and thirsty  land  in need of living waters  , as Seth and I agree it is  a  progression from death  in Adam  that all die in  , to Life in Christ that all  will be made alive .

  The TWO edged SWORD /WORD  that divides the soul in Adam , from the LIFE giving Spirit in Christ     this can be considered as the great gulf fixed   ,  that no man can enter the promised Land,  till all these things be fulfilled  within us ..
GOD is making the LIGHT BRIGHTER as the DAY  approaches/comes nearer  ,   so we can see  the work of both  Laws being made effective  , as  death and life are ours   , all things are ours to experience   and that no man can enter  into the temple of the Living God only those whom are Christs and Christ is Gods 


16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless."

21 So then let no one boast in men.

For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

The temple is where the priests of God   come to worship Him and  must be  made new creatures in Christ to perform the  service of serving God in all His glory and no man is allowed till the smoke clears and the old man of sin is destroyed for good ....     2 Chroni 5 God's Glory Fills the Temple
...13in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one voice to praise and to glorify the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice accompanied by trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and when they praised the LORD saying,

"He indeed is good for His lovingkindness is everlasting," then the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud, 14 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.

  Now we read in Revelation the same exact thing until after all the bowls of Gods wrath was poured out  no man could enter the temple Rev 15 Preparation for Judgment
...7Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

these being under the law of sin and death . could not rise into power and glory till the  7 last plagues are poured out upon the man of sin ....

Not all are worthy of this  in this life , many are called but few are chosen to be the priests of God though the Living Spirit of the Living God   because they do love their lives and have not died  fully to sin  yet  ,     that wisdom of the world keeps them   bound to sin nature    , and  bound  to her the great whore of the earth   , the body of death  and not life in the TRUE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD   , until the  7 last plagues     completely destroy   Babylon in them  .

Revelation is all about showing us the destruction of Babylon  being the DAY OF THE LORD   COMING IN HIS fury and jealousy  to take back what belongs to Him ! in us and it is a very   painful process  to endure , a 2nd death  , but makes you whiter than snow  from the fire of His jealousy   ..  the first death being in Adam, unclean soul  the  2nd  death is  being released from Babylon  the unclean spirits    , that Gods Spirit of jealousy will not give His glory to another .. the unfaithful   wife   that was to be  cleansed and purified  by all Gods dealing with her  letting His  people go ...Found   in her is caged    every hateful and unclean bird  trapped

It is becoming  totally clean   , from all things that offend .....  in my sincere opinion /belief
God bless  us  all , as we Bless  HIM , with more of  Him the Light and Life of all that is Living  :HeartThrob: