When Was Hell Created?

[marie glen]

P.S. - Speaking for myself, I don't view demons as supernatural beings, but as "spirits" (rebel, etc) able to influence people.. interfering in their affairs, especially national or global.. work all sides to every issue, etc. The adversary Paul said is the "god of this world"...


Leading the world astray.. The world is covered with falsehood.. more so, I believe, than if man were let alone.. imo, speeding things up.. to make this unavoidable lesson not last half of forever.. (my own dumb phrase that:)

[marie glen]

The King James includes these verses:

#H8163 - śâ‛ı̂yr śâ‛ir
saw-eer', saw-eer'
From H8175; shaggy; as noun, a he goat; by analogy a faun

1. hairy n m
   2. he-goat, buck
       a. as sacrificial animal
       b. satyr, may refer to a demon possessed goat like the swine of Gadara

Leviticus 17:7 -- And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Deuteronomy 32:17 -- They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

2 Chronicles 11:15 -- And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

Psalm 106:37 -- Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

          "devils" -  #H7700 - http://studybible.info/strongs/H7700 from #7736 - http://studybible.info/strongs/H7736

:Chinscratch:

1 Corinthians 10:20 -- Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

20 [no,] but that the things that the nations sacrifice -- they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not wish you to come into the fellowship of the demons.

[marie glen]

Bible search demons - from the Young's Literal Translation

Matthew 8:31 -- and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'

Mark 1:34 -- and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.

1 Timothy 4:1 -- And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

James 2:19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Revelation 16:14 -- for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty;

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 4:24 -- and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them.

Matthew 7:22 -- Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?

Matthew 8:16 -- And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill,

Matthew 8:28 -- And he having come to the other side, to the region of the Gergesenes, there met him two demoniacs, coming forth out of the tombs, very fierce, so that no one was able to pass over by that way,

Matthew 8:31 -- and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'

Matthew 8:33 and those feeding did flee, and, having gone to the city, they declared all, and the matter of the demoniacs.

Matthew 9:32 -- And as they are coming forth, lo, they brought to him a man dumb, a demoniac,

Matthew 9:33 -- and the demon having been cast out, the dumb spake, and the multitude did wonder, saying that `It was never so seen in Israel:'

Matthew 9:34 -- but the Pharisees said, `By the ruler of the demons he doth cast out the demons.'

Matthew 10:8 -- infirm ones be healing, lepers be cleansing, dead be raising, demons be casting out -- freely ye did receive, freely give.

Matthew 11:18 -- `For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon;

Matthew 12:22 -- Then was brought to him a demoniac, blind and dumb, and he healed him, so that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Matthew 12:24 -- but the Pharisees having heard, said, `This one doth not cast out demons, except by Beelzeboul, ruler of the demons.'
I
Matthew 12:27 -- `And if I, by Beelzeboul, do cast out the demons, your sons -- by whom do they cast out? because of this they -- they shall be your judges.

Matthew 12:28 -- `But if I, by the Spirit of God, do cast out the demons, then come already unto you did the reign of God.

Matthew 15:22 -- and lo, a woman, a Canaanitess, from those borders having come forth, did call to him, saying, `Deal kindly with me, Sir -- Son of David; my daughter is miserably demonized.'

Matthew 17:18 -- and Jesus rebuked him, and the demon went out of him, and the lad was healed from that hour.

Mark 1:32 -- And evening having come, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all who were ill, and who were demoniacs,

Mark 1:34 -- and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.

Mark 1:39 -- And he was preaching in their synagogues, in all Galilee, and is casting out the demons,

Mark 3:15 -- and to have power to heal the sicknesses, and to cast out the demons.

Mark 3:22 -- and the scribes who [are] from Jerusalem having come down, said -- `He hath Beelzeboul,' and -- `By the ruler of the demons he doth cast out the demons.'

Mark 5:12 -- and all the demons did call upon him, saying, `Send us to the swine, that into them we may enter;'

Mark 5:15 -- and they come unto Jesus, and see the demoniac, sitting, and clothed, and right-minded -- him having had the legion -- and they were afraid;

etc... many are repetitive in the gospels - snip

Luke 8:2 -- and certain women, who were healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary who is called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone forth,

Luke 8:29 -- For he commanded the unclean spirit to come forth from the man, for many times it had caught him, and he was being bound with chains and fetters -- guarded, and breaking asunder the bonds he was driven by the demons to the deserts.

Luke 11:18 -- and if also the Adversary against himself was divided, how shall his kingdom be made to stand? for ye say, by Beelzeboul is my casting forth the demons.

Luke 11:20 -- but if by the finger of God I cast forth the demons, then come unawares upon you did the reign of God.

John 8:49 -- Jesus answered, `I have not a demon, but I honour my Father, and ye dishonour me;

1 Corinthians 10:21 -- Ye are not able the cup of the Lord to drink, and the cup of demons; ye are not able of the table of the Lord to partake, and of the table of demons;

1 Timothy 4:1 -- And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

James 2:19 -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

James 3:15 -- this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like,

Revelation 9:20 -- and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,

Revelation 16:14 -- for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty;

Revelation 18:2 -- and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,


wow, look at this one -
Isaiah 34:14
Amplified Bible
The creatures of the desert will encounter jackals And the hairy goat will call to its kind; Indeed, Lilith (night demon) will settle there And find herself a place of rest.

myth/legend of (some) men says lilith was the first vampire :faint: (no I am not making this claim nor even thinking it :laughing7: )

H3917 --
    lı̂ylı̂yth
lee-leeth'
From H3915; a night spectre

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions

לילית

   1. "Lilith", name of a female goddess known as a night demon who haunts the desolate places of Edom
       a. might be a nocturnal animal that inhabits desolate places

(same verse) - Isaiah 34:14 -- King James Version (KJV)

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

In context:

9 Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
    her dust into burning sulfur;
    her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
    its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
    no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl...

-- -- why metaphor man's tendency to err.. when it's already plainly spoken about.. why would there be all the metaphor..? I heard even some in churches believe the resurrection was metaphor :mshock:

[eaglesway]

you seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed

What I am suggesting is that if the narrative, which includes Jesus' acts and words regarding demons, is metaphor, then anything can be metaphor, and indeed it can all be a metaphor, because the gospels record those things as factual narrative, and Jesus and John and Paul teach about demons and the devil in ways that are definitely not metaphor. The same scriptures that teach about the Holy Spirit teach about angels, demons, etc.

However I am not asserting anything about what you believe about the Holy Spirit or God. I am just questioning and, I guess refuting, your application of scripture concerning demons, as an example of an inconsitent view of how to interpret scripture. I believe a person needs to apply the same basic principles across the board, not pick and choose what is convenient to ones preferences.

The Bible is rich with metaphors, but is not all metaphor, and we just simply disagree on how one determines what is metaphor and what isnt.

Yeah, but I do actually think about this. I reject the idea of Satan and demons as literal beings because the Bible is not written in any language Jesus spoke, doesn't offer any direct explanation for what they writers or speakers mean when they use these words and then doubt it given that it also defies logical. I give you and example from a passage in the Bible that I'm sure is commonly used to argue for the existence of Satan. It's Luke 10:18 this is recorded:

'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'

Jesus appears to be lends credence to the story of the fall of Satan. Before I address that you may remember I said that Jesus only uses the term 'Satan' when He is address enemies, or those who are behaving as enemies at the time, this is no exception. In context this is what happens:

'The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"
'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."' (Luke 10:17-20)

This is a reprimand, it may be a very gentle and subtle one but it's a reprimand. Jesus is telling the disciples not to rejoice at the defeat of their enemies but only at the salvation of themselves.  And to support this argument He makes an allusion we imagine they were expected to understand to the defeat of His own enemy. Who fell to Earth, and created the mess that it's in now. So is the traditional understanding. Notice also that Jesus doesn't use the word 'demon' back to he disciples here, He says spirits here, is it a coincidence or is He being careful?

Here's the thing we are now, in the twenty first century, well beyond Babel. We have learned that there is no mountain we can climb or rocket we can build that will take us to Heaven because Heaven is not 'up there' in the sense it was understood to be my the people Jesus was address. As far as can be ascertained, Jesus is referring to something that the disciples understood from their Jewish teachings but doesn't appear to be mentioned in any of the Jewish works the Church holds as authoritative. Do we really take a story which we don't really know as true, based on a world view we know to be untrue because Jesus made reference to it while reprimanding His disciples for improper thinking? Heaven isn't literally 'up there' for Satan to fall 'down here'. I have no doubt the statement points to spiritual truth. But taking it literally seems pretty well impossible.

You are saying "do we take the story which we really as true..." But we do know it is true. On this site we accept that the whole cannon of scripture IS TRUE, when properly translated. There is sufficient source material available to affirm the scriptures and to discuss translation issues, but WE DO NOT ALLOW THE ISNSPIRATION OF THE SCRIPTURE AS A TOPIC OF DEBATE, on this site. There are other sites where discussing the inspiration and dependability of the scriptures is appropriate. This is not such a site. Participation in the discussions on this site are based upon the authority and the validity of the scriptures as the word of God. We hold that the Bible, as a whole, contains the truth of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. The narratives in it are factual history. The metaphors in it are revelations- pictures of spiritual reality. If you want to debate the validity of the scriptures you will have to do so somewhere else.

[CST]

Surely, in the interests of fairness that should be taken as true when properly translated and properly understood what if the word demon simply doesn't mean what we think it means?

I am a linguistic idealist, I would love it if the grammar of languages was so perfect that if the correct words and punctuation are used in the correct places it would be impossible for anyone to misconstrue or misunderstand anything anyone else said. I would love that and often try to find out how to get as close as possible to learning how to do that. But I know there's ultimately no way that can be done, they'll always be things that are translated as well as they can be and they can still be misunderstood and you might still struggle to find Biblical backing to show what they understand is 'wrong'.

Remember language is not just affected by the words and semantics the writer or speaker uses that mental attitude of the writer, reader or listener. Hebrew is a colourful language awash with symbolism, metaphor and hyperbole anyway. English isn't we assume that if Jesus isn't speaking the literal truth to His listeners He must either be mistaken or lying. Because that's how it is in English, their isn't a cultural onus on speaking your mind scientifically and literally. That isn't true in the Hebrew world. The argument your making just doesn't stand up to scrutiny given the source material.

[CST]

CST, what is your reading on these verses? as to who or what..? thanks :smile:

Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

I'm glad you ask. It suggests your open to argument and are willing to provide material to work with. But you've provided a lot so I'll have to return to this when I have more time to give it my attention.

[marie glen]

Thought I'd do a shorter summary -

Acts 27:23-24 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

23 for there stood by me this night a messenger of God -- whose I am, and whom I serve --
24 saying, Be not afraid Paul; before Caesar it behoveth thee to stand; and, lo, God hath granted to thee all those sailing with thee;

Matthew 8:31 -- and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'

Mark 1:34 -- and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.

1 Timothy 4:1 -- And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

James 2:19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Revelation 16:14 -- for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty;

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

---------------------

Hebrews 1:6-7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers [#G32 - "messengers, angels"] of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'

Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'

"Messengers" - Young's Literal Version

Genesis 19:1
And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,

Genesis 22:11-12
And the messenger of Jehovah calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;'
and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth

Genesis 28:12
And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it;

Genesis 32:1
And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;

2 Kings 1:3
And a messenger of Jehovah hath spoken unto Elijah the Tishbite

Psalm 148:2
Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts.

-- edit - Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."

p.s - well it's a little shorter anyway.. main ones (lmo:) :laughing7:

[marie glen]

my thoughts on this are..

Survival of the Strongest - He Knows All

Ps 80 - Asaph wrote a song about his nation, Israel. Her roots went deep, verdant like an emerald she spread upon the land.. But now the hedges were down, oppressors were oppressing. Thieves were stealing. "Why O Lord?" goes the psalm.

It's an example of life itself. There's two ways. Two paths. Love God, or don't love God. But life, you see, is God. Or more accurately, God is life. And His character is flawless. ("God is love." 1 Jn 4:8)

If we love Him, we will be a fountain of peace, joy and love. The peace and the joy depend upon the love. He is perfect. To not remain in Him is to develop flaw. There's two directions, toward God or away from God.

Society/life away from God will produce, eventually, every sort of abuse and oppression.

What better way to prove that, than to let it run its natural course. And what better way to speed along what could be a very long and laborious process, than to have invisible conscious forces - who in their moving away from God, have developed the hard veneer of being against God - working diligently over the ages to manipulate mankind's affairs..?
    :Peace2: :gsmile:

[CST]

That's an immensely beautiful sentiment there are I'm full of much truth. I'm not sure your logic about the last part is entirely thought through though.

Not sure that you summery is as helpful as you expected it to be either I seem to be left with a random, non-connected set of quotes my brain struugles to deal with. so I'll go back to one of the above sets.

That one doesn't contain the word 'messenger'. And I'm not sure how much of the context of that is determined by Christian presupposition bias. Not sure how it acts as evidence for literal supernatural beings (other than God) either.

you do not believe there are angels? and the context of what is happening should (imo) suggest these tho appearing as men, are not human men.. :)

"devil" references in the Young's Literal:

Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil, - Mt 4:1, YLV -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"

what tempted Jesus?

and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Rev 12:9 -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"


Matthew 4:8 -- Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,

Matthew 4:11 -- Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.

Matthew 13:39 -- and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.

Matthew 25:41 -- Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Luke 4:2 ---forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered,

Luke 4:3 -- and the Devil said to him, `If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.'

Luke 4:5 -- And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,

Luke 4:6 -- and the Devil said to him, `To thee I will give all this authority, and their glory, because to me it hath been delivered, and to whomsoever I will, I do give it;

Luke 4:13 -- And having ended all temptation, the Devil departed from him till a convenient season.

Luke 8:12 -- and those beside the way are those hearing, then cometh the Devil, and taketh up the word from their heart, lest having believed, they may be saved.

John 6:70 -- Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you -- the twelve? and of you -- one is a devil.

John 8:44 -- `Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.

John 13:2 -- And supper being come, the devil already having put [it] into the heart of Judas of Simon, Iscariot, that he may deliver him up,

Acts 10:38 -- Jesus who [is] from Nazareth -- how God did anoint him with the Holy Spirit and power; who went through, doing good, and healing all those oppressed by the devil, because God was with him;

Acts 13:10 -- said, `O full of all guile, and all profligacy, son of a devil, enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease perverting the right ways of the Lord?

Ephesians 4:27 -- neither give place to the devil;

Ephesians 6:11 -- put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil,

1 Timothy 3:6 -- not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;

1 Timothy 3:7 -- and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil.

2 Timothy 2:26 -- and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.

Hebrews 2:14 -- Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

James 4:7 -- be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;

1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,

So first your references to the Devil. Let's start with John 6:70. Jesus here is speaking of Judas He doesn't mean the Devil as is usually understood so translators translate it 'a devil'. But as far as can tell there's no article definite or indefinite in the Greek. Jesus could just as easily have called Judas 'the Devil. One way or another then, Jesus is not using the word as we usually understand it. He cannot literally mean that Judas is entirely and completely the Devil. More on his later hopefully. I'm going to pass over the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. I have many thoughts on that but there are already many threads for those. I won't discuss them here.

John 8:44 where Jesus is Jesus speaking metaphorically as I mentioned above. Jesus isn't saying Satan has literally sired the people His words are directed to. He's telling them their ways and spirit are deceitful and duplicitous and much more of the character of the Devil than of God or indeed Abraham who they claim as their father as if they don't have any sort of obligations to that ancestry. A nonsensical proposition. Matthew 13:39 and Luke 8:12 are Jesus explaining parables. The world isn't exactly like this. He's speaking metaphorically to explain something to teach a larger lesson. A real Devil is not automatically required.

Acts 10:38 speaks of oppression by the Devil. That presumably is taken to mean possessed by demons but it may not mean that, there are many ways people could be oppressed by 'the Devil' without the Devil needing to be an actual being. In Acts 13:10, like John 6:70, the text is translated as 'a devil' in Young's the KJV says 'the Devil' again it's difficult to take literally as mentioned above. Either the text doesn't refer to the Devil or it doesn't literally mean the being we know of as the Devil sired the person under discussion.

The rest of your quotes come from epistles. Paul's usage all seems the same. Warnings to the reader against being deceived, diabolos as you say is 'slanderer' or, more technically, 'calumniator'. That would be one who distorts the truth. Given how the Devil is understood is the context of the Bible and how we read the Word of God the point seems pretty self explanatory as does the warning with it. Resist those who would distort the truth. The Devil doesn't have to literally exist for the point to be made.

Hebrews seems a bit unique, the Devil has the power of death. Usually I was of the impression it was God who had that power seeing as it was Him who decided who lived and who dies. I'm not sure how to read that it feals a little out of place. It certainly doesn't encourage me to see the Devil as a literal being.

The epistle from James doesn't require me believing in a literal Devil either. But believing in one makes the passage more difficult that it already is. Yes, if you resist the Devil he might well flee from you. But in my experience he tends to keep coming back trying to wear you down, it's exhausting and is a battle you can end up fighting your whole life never winning because it never ends. At least if I take a literal Devil out the equation the only actual enemy is my own improper desires.

I don't need to mention the statement in the epistle of Peter, I don't think anyone would expect anyone to take that literally. The only question is how much meat is on the metaphor.

The hardest quote you invoke is John 13:2 which does appear to suggest that the actually Devil does enter Judas and somehow take him over to get him to betray Jesus. I'll address this and hopefully the temptation of Christ which is probably the strongest New Testament evidence for the existence of the Devil, next time.

[marie glen]

Well, obviously I disagree with all that..

1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up

I don't need to mention the statement in the epistle of Peter, I don't think anyone would expect anyone to take that literally. The only question is how much meat is on the metaphor.

Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may devour.. destroy.. and make use of..

Yes, I believe that's literal.

:Peace2:

P.S. -examine the sentence.. the whatever.. walks about.. seeking..

If it were metaphor, what is it speaking of?

[CST]

Unless the Devil is an actual lion, it's a metaphor. Since lions are rather physically limited being beings of flesh that don't speak Human the Devil, were he an actual lion, would be physically limited.

I'm sure you are also aware that 'well, obviously I disagree with all of that' is no sort of argument and I doubt you disagree on the meaning of 'calumniator' because that's just a fact, a very important fact I hope to come to later. But I would consider it a valid response given how trying to respond to every reference you gave rather limited my own arguments. Hopefully, my arguments from the temptation of Christ references will be stronger.

So the story of the temptation of Christ appears in two Gospels Matthew and Luke. Mark reports that it happened but does not give any account of it. As mentioned above Mark is the only Gospel writer to use the term Satan, in narrative here, Matthew and Luke both reserve the name Satan for the words of Jesus in their Gospels and never put it in narrative. They write 'the Devil' in narrative, Mark never uses the phrase 'the Devil' (diabolos).

So Matthew first:

'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
'But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
'Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
'Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
'Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
'Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.' (Matt. 4:1-11)

Now Luke:

'And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'"' (Luke 4:1-4)

So far so identical. Luke doesn't use the Hebrew idiom 'forty days and forty night' he writes in naturally. And he doesn't write the second part of the quote from Deuteronomy, which seems a little lapse but the story is the same. Jesus fasts and gets hungry. And the the Devil appears.

'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"' (Luke 4:5-8)

Now it starts the accounts start to diverge somewhat. What was the third temptation for Matthew is the second for Luke. According to Luke the Devil claims to have had all the kingdoms delivered to him, a lie Matthew does not reproduce, and while Matthew describes the glory of the kingdoms Luke says, more ambiguously, they are shown 'in a moment in time' a very ambiguous statement but some I suspect that only Jesus could have seen.

'And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,'and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"' (Luke 4:9-12)

Now it's diverged it can hardly go back, the second temptation in Matthew must now be the third in Luke. I'll explain my thoughts behind this transposition later, hopefully. Right now I'm just describing the differences in the Gospel accounts. Subtle, but present. Technically, because both Gospel writers describe the temptations as linear events one of them must be wrong. Technically that's true. Of course no one really cares because it doesn't seem to make much difference to the story which order the temptations occurred only that Jesus was able to resist them and, perhaps, how. The recording of the events here though seem the most identical of all three temptations recorded with only the most subtle of differences.

'And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.' (Luke 4:13)

Luke's ending to the story is almost in opposition to Matthew's while Luke has a somewhat ominous ending where the Devil is not finally defeated and expects to return later, the angels that come in Matthew seen to underscore Christ's victory over His enemy. I'm short on time now so before I discuss how I understand this in relation to what Satan means I'll give you sometime to read this and see if you can come up with any of your own ideas about the divergences that occur and why they do.

[marie glen]

Unless the Devil is an actual lion, it's a metaphor. Since lions are rather physically limited being beings of flesh that don't speak Human the Devil, were he an actual lion, would be physically limited.

Actually, it is saying.. the enemy, like a lion, is prowling looking for someone to devour - whether we take it to mean the enemy is prowling or the lion is prowling, it's saying, the enemy like a lion is..

I'm sure you are also aware that 'well, obviously I disagree with all of that' is no sort of argument

I prefer to think in terms of conversation.. :gsmile:

So the story of the temptation of Christ appears in two Gospels Matthew and Luke. Mark reports that it happened but does not give any account of it. As mentioned above Mark is the only Gospel writer to use the term Satan, in narrative here, Matthew and Luke both reserve the name Satan for the words of Jesus in their Gospels and never put it in narrative. They write 'the Devil' in narrative, Mark never uses the phrase 'the Devil' (diabolos).

So Matthew first:

'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
'But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
'Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
'Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
'Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
'Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.' (Matt. 4:1-11)

Now Luke:

'And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'"' (Luke 4:1-4)

So far so identical. Luke doesn't use the Hebrew idiom 'forty days and forty night' he writes in naturally. And he doesn't write the second part of the quote from Deuteronomy, which seems a little lapse but the story is the same. Jesus fasts and gets hungry. And the the Devil appears.

'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"' (Luke 4:5-8)

Now it starts the accounts start to diverge somewhat. What was the third temptation for Matthew is the second for Luke. According to Luke the Devil claims to have had all the kingdoms delivered to him, a lie Matthew does not reproduce, and while Matthew describes the glory of the kingdoms Luke says, more ambiguously, they are shown 'in a moment in time' a very ambiguous statement but some I suspect that only Jesus could have seen.

'And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,'and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"' (Luke 4:9-12)

Now it's diverged it can hardly go back, the second temptation in Matthew must now be the third in Luke. I'll explain my thoughts behind this transposition later, hopefully. Right now I'm just describing the differences in the Gospel accounts. Subtle, but present. Technically, because both Gospel writers describe the temptations as linear events one of them must be wrong. Technically that's true. Of course no one really cares because

Eye witness accounts and testimonies always differ in some details, indeed when they don't authorities are very likely suspicious..

it doesn't seem to make much difference to the story which order the temptations occurred only that Jesus was able to resist them and, perhaps, how. The recording of the events here though seem the most identical of all three temptations recorded with only the most subtle of differences.

'And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.' (Luke 4:13)

Luke's ending to the story is almost in opposition to Matthew's while Luke has a somewhat ominous ending where the Devil is not finally defeated and expects to return later, the angels that come in Matthew seen to underscore Christ's victory over His enemy. I'm short on time now so before I discuss how I understand this in relation to what Satan means I'll give you sometime to read this and see if you can come up with any of your own ideas about the divergences that occur and why they do.

Oh. Been there, done that :laughing7: ..as we know, these testimonies were written many years later, even more reason for memories and details to differ..

[jabcat]

I prefer to think in terms of conversation.. :gsmile:

Thank you marie, as you obviously are aware, that's the MO of TM discussion forum.  Conversation, discussion..not argument or debate. 

CST, this isn't a "I'm going to struggle with you til the cows come home" set-up.  We prefer to generally state a belief, show why, discuss it a bit, then if someone sees it differently, shake hands and move on.  So at some point in a discussion saying "I disagree" and moving on is perfectly acceptable here.   Needless contention and striving is discouraged, and eventually likely moderated.  Thanks.

[Lazarus Short]

1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up

That verse implies that there are those who the devil may NOT swallow up.

[marie glen]

Thank you jabcat! :hiya:



CST,
What I'm learning from this is a tool! ..so to speak.. and reinforcement that not all our temptations and bad thoughts proceed from the enemy, but our own imperfect and flawed self (not yet perfected, all the promises are by faith) when a person has a temptation, or a bad thought, instead of only "rebuking the devil" and "resisting the devil and he will flee from you" we can apply the blood of Jesus upon it, for temptations and bad thoughts are sins.. and that's what the blood is for! ....different 'washings' for different things.. the blood of Jesus for sins.. the prayer of thanksgiving for our foods, etc, that there be no harmful thing (effect?) and the submitting to His Spirit the things we seek to do for Him.. ..our studies, etc.. (If we only "resist" and "rebuke" said bad thought, threat.., temptation, will return..
   :Peace2: :dsunny:

[marie glen]

1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up

That verse implies that there are those who the devil may NOT swallow up.

Amen, Laz! (And that's a good thing! :smile: )  ..this verse, I actually like best in the King James.. "seeking to devour.." (reminds me of "breathing out threatenings")

to which i :icon_jokercolor: like to quote:
"Jesus is Lord!"
"God is love!"
"His kingdom never ends!"

[CST]

Unless the Devil is an actual lion, it's a metaphor. Since lions are rather physically limited being beings of flesh that don't speak Human the Devil, were he an actual lion, would be physically limited.

Actually, it is saying.. the enemy, like a lion, is prowling looking for someone to devour - whether we take it to mean the enemy is prowling or the lion is prowling, it's saying, the enemy like a lion is..

I'm sure you are also aware that 'well, obviously I disagree with all of that' is no sort of argument

I prefer to think in terms of conversation.. :gsmile:

So the story of the temptation of Christ appears in two Gospels Matthew and Luke. Mark reports that it happened but does not give any account of it. As mentioned above Mark is the only Gospel writer to use the term Satan, in narrative here, Matthew and Luke both reserve the name Satan for the words of Jesus in their Gospels and never put it in narrative. They write 'the Devil' in narrative, Mark never uses the phrase 'the Devil' (diabolos).

So Matthew first:

'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
'But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
'Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
'Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
'Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
'Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.' (Matt. 4:1-11)

Now Luke:

'And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'"' (Luke 4:1-4)

So far so identical. Luke doesn't use the Hebrew idiom 'forty days and forty night' he writes in naturally. And he doesn't write the second part of the quote from Deuteronomy, which seems a little lapse but the story is the same. Jesus fasts and gets hungry. And the the Devil appears.

'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"' (Luke 4:5-8)

Now it starts the accounts start to diverge somewhat. What was the third temptation for Matthew is the second for Luke. According to Luke the Devil claims to have had all the kingdoms delivered to him, a lie Matthew does not reproduce, and while Matthew describes the glory of the kingdoms Luke says, more ambiguously, they are shown 'in a moment in time' a very ambiguous statement but some I suspect that only Jesus could have seen.

'And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,'and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"' (Luke 4:9-12)

Now it's diverged it can hardly go back, the second temptation in Matthew must now be the third in Luke. I'll explain my thoughts behind this transposition later, hopefully. Right now I'm just describing the differences in the Gospel accounts. Subtle, but present. Technically, because both Gospel writers describe the temptations as linear events one of them must be wrong. Technically that's true. Of course no one really cares because

Eye witness accounts and testimonies always differ in some details, indeed when they don't authorities are very likely suspicious..

it doesn't seem to make much difference to the story which order the temptations occurred only that Jesus was able to resist them and, perhaps, how. The recording of the events here though seem the most identical of all three temptations recorded with only the most subtle of differences.

'And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.' (Luke 4:13)

Luke's ending to the story is almost in opposition to Matthew's while Luke has a somewhat ominous ending where the Devil is not finally defeated and expects to return later, the angels that come in Matthew seen to underscore Christ's victory over His enemy. I'm short on time now so before I discuss how I understand this in relation to what Satan means I'll give you sometime to read this and see if you can come up with any of your own ideas about the divergences that occur and why they do.

Oh. Been there, done that :laughing7: ..as we know, these testimonies were written many years later, even more reason for memories and details to differ..

It says 'as a roaring lion' which is either a simile where 'as' stands for 'like' or else it is suggesting that the Devil has actually taken the form of a roaring lion, which I don't think anyone believes. Of course, the lion has to stop roaring while it's seeking or it warn it's pray that it's coming.

Oh, sorry. Would you prefer I say that it was blunt dismissive... and rude. 'Well, obviously, I disagree with all that' is a response that gives so little credence to what I said as to summarize all of it a the ravings of an ignorant blabbermouth.

Authorities can be as suspicious as they like it doesn't make the source false. But that wasn't my point, my point is that any argument that the Bible is faultless in its report of historical events and situation is called into question when one of the presents the correct history in a way that must be in part incorrect.

I haven't seen where you've been there and done that yet but as you say you have I going to go recourse to an observation from a different part of the Bible instead. It's the Greek word 'aletheia'.

This word appears in the Greek text of the New Testament 110 ten times. The main weapon in the arsenal of apologetics for defending the belief in demons is that the Bible says so and the Bible is inerrant and is, unless we can be sure otherwise speaks and tells literal history and it speaks of demons so literal demons must exist. Fine it's a good defence; I can see no reason to try and weaken the authority of the Bible. So how does the word 'aletheia' fit? Well, that is the shorthand people often use to make this apology, that is the major NT word for 'truth'. It appears in the NT 110 times,  in the KJV 107 times as 'truth' plus a further three times translated as 'true', 'verity' and 'truly' all essentially similar.

But it appears in the Gospel according to John more frequently than any other book in the Bible. Twenty-Five times in all those times are as follows:

1. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (1:14)

2. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (1:17)

3. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (3:21)

4. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (4:23)

5. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (4:24)

6.Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. (5:33)

7/8. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (8:32)

9. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (8:40)

10/11. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (8:44)

12. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. (8:45)

13. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? (8:46)

14. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (14:6)

15. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (14:17)

16. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (15:26)

17. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (16:7)

18/19. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (16:13)

20/21. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (17:17)

22. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (17:19)

23/24. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. (18:37)

That's twenty-four. Twenty-four of the twenty-five I said there were. Read them carefully then read the last which follows. Reference twenty-five here below:

25. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. (18:38)

And that's it, the last time that word 'truth' (aletheia) appears in the Gospel of John, where it appears more frequently that anywhere else in the New Testament. Fascinating isn't it? I'll repeat it, 'What-Is-Truth?' Do you know the answer, John's been spoon feeding it to you all the while but he's stopped short of spelling it out because an answer isn't directly forthcoming. Christ claims to be the truth Himself, but Christ is a man, and also God, a living being we don't usually think of the truth like that the truth is a concept, it's not alive, is it? Not flexible not to be reasoned with but simply accepted. What do we do with Jesus' claim to be some sort of living truth?

I used to think of truth the way a lot of people presenting the sort of apologetics being presented in this discussion only believing in absolute truth. That is to say in total opposition to what is false without flexibility. What the Bible says must therefore be true and cannot in anyway be less than literally absolutely true. It's the confusion of not understanding the difference between fact and truth. Then I discovered there was such a thing as relative truth. I have one example I always use for this.

Imagine that I say, 'frogs are green.' This is true I can prove it by producing a green frog thus showing its truth. But what if I say 'all frogs are green?' Well that's not true, a frog of any other colour can be produced to disprove it. Such is the difference between the first statement, a claim for relative truth: there are green frogs, and the second statement a claim for absolute truth: there are only green frogs. The first is acceptable as true in given parameters the second excludes all such parameters and must be false if it is not at all true. Relative and absolute truth. But are there examples of relative truth in the Bible? Well, yes there are?

In Isaiah 38:1 it is written:

'In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."'

"This is what the LORD says..." hear that? Isaiah is invoking the divine name YHWH it seems and telling Hezekiah he's going to die and not recover, God has spoken apparently. But what happens next?

'Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, "Remember, LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
'Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah: "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.' (Isaiah 38:2-5)

What, wait, you can't do that! You said, you just said...

Of course, God can and indeed did do that but anyone who reads the first statement must know it contradicts the second statement the second statement makes what God said untrue yet He still said it and He wasn't lying. The solution, relative truth, it was truth according to the situation God spoke to when He said it but Hezekiah's response changed the situation even though if would no doubt have remained the same if God hadn't spoken and Hezekiah would have died. So the result is that the Bible has a paradox in it where the future is changed due to a character being given knowledge of it. This is relative truth. Are there other examples of relative truth in the Bible? Yes, there's one very famous one where Jesus reveals in response to a very important question from the disciples:

'Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

There, relative to man, impossible, to God, utterly possible. Relative absolute truth which overturns pretty much any apologetic going because that would literally suggest that Jesus can talk about demons truthfully while no demons exist, with God all things are possible.

What is truth? Do you really know the answer, do I? I know that if you don't you can't really claim to understand anything the Bible says, and the certainly can't put it above Jesus. Jesus is truth not the Bible.

[marie glen]

:smile: "been there, done that" - I merely meant I figured I happened to answer your question before you asked it..

You quoted Jn 17:17 yourself "sanctify them" (us) "in thy truth, Thy word is truth"

We know John also wrote "in the beginning was the word and the word was with God.." referring to Jesus, the light which came into the world.. Into which all things were created and are being gathered into.

~ "This is the decree, thou art My Son" ps 2.

But there's also verses about rightly dividing the word and abiding in the word.. If every man is to simply glean the truth from the Spirit of Jesus alone we will have, well, something resembling YouTube, no offense to YouTube.. But some pretty wild and crazy ideas floating around.. tons and tons, all different. I do believe God's Word the bible is the measure and guideline of truth.

Which truth, I believe is the "rod of iron" Jesus will rule with, it being unbreakable. Which this life of learning good from evil, I believe is teaching us. Cannot be broken any more than gravity. (Yes one can build a rocket ship, but it uses gravity doesn't cancel it. And of course "with God all things are possible" but it's my belief He reigns and builds using law.. Natural law - including the wages of sin is death. Which I tend to think all of His natural laws and truth are not relative but unbreakable. We only break ourselves upon it, as the saying goes.

Also however, important to read all pertaining verses to an issue, not separate a few out. As so many things have two poles to them, putting, I believe, the ultimate truth somewhere in the middle.. So to speak.

To the issue at hand.. In my readings this morning was the account of Jesus casting demons out of the man who lived in the tombs of Gadarene.. If this account, which is quite detailed, is metaphor (myth?) how does anyone discern what is and what isn't? What did Jesus do and didn't really do? Did he raise the widow's son? Lazarus? It's a - imo - a very slippery slope and leads to all sorts of confusion and the contradicting of God's word and accounts..

That's just my opinion. I'm not angry over it or anything.

Only truth will remain standing in the 'end' - imo - I can't help but be enthusiastic for truth, since I believe that's the whole ball of wax "hath God really said..?" "The whole world lieth in" to my mind, untruth. And is pretty much the whole problem, at root, and what is being taught via this life/life as we presently know it.

Especially for UR, if it were, in someone's witness to be supported by men's words, thoughts and ideas only, not a fraction as successful as when supported by God's Word. And also not so easily dismissed or ridiculed by the rest of the Bible folks.. The more God's Word we back it up with the more credibility and success in the here and now.. Wander from the word and it will wilt.. Imo :smile:

[jabcat]

I'm locking this thread for 24 hours, then when re-opened request it get back to the OP.

Oh, sorry. Would you prefer I say that it was blunt dismissive... and rude. 'Well, obviously, I disagree with all that' is a response that gives so little credence to what I said as to summarize all of it a the ravings of an ignorant blabbermouth.

Jesus is truth not the Bible.

The default at TM is that the scriptures, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed are trustworthy and not to be dismissed, i.e., truth.

  This isn't a place to argue - especially over non-essentials, just to try and prove who's right, or who's insulting who, etc.   As mentioned a couple of posts back, "I disagree" is a perfectly good response, and not to be taken personally, as an insult.  It's a way to express one's view without continuing what may be a fruitless struggle. 

If there are any questions or response to this moderation post, please do not do so here.  Instead, PM jabcat and eaglesway together for any further discussion of this.  Otherwise, please post in accordance with defined forum expectations.  Thank you. 

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/

[eaglesway]

Absolutely agree. All we know of Jesus comes from two sources. Our experience of fellowship with Him and the scriptures of the Bible.

Anyone who sets up a paradigm where one is in opposition to the other is immature and confused.... even tho they may be well intentioned, it is simply true that the Holy Spirit points to Jesus through the scriptures and reveals who He is in a way that should totally co-ordinate with our experience.

However, for the Word to be "rightly divided"- we , as readers and hearers must also be rightly be divided.

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Wisdom justifies her adherents.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work....