From Gary;
"If salvation is deliverance from Hell in which most of mankind will be tormented forever, according to the Bible, when in God's plan of creation did He create this place?"
"This place," as you describe aint and never was in His plan. Is this a trick question?
There a work by Thomas B. Thayer on endless punishment, all the way from OT to NT that noting is mentioned.
:Sparkletooth: I don't think it's a trick question. I think since so many claim there's an eternal hell, Gary's wondering if it makes sense in terms of when was it supposedly created.
It still doesn't say when it was created, but some say "hell" is actually this [WhiteWing's recent thread]; "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41; and that God decided at some point to put mankind there.
Yes, I would like to know the same thing. I would think the OT would mention of this eternal burning chamber, at least the "Jews" would know something of it. ( I would think). :dontknow:
Salvation is not deliverance from hell in the first place.
Interesting that the verse describes sheep and goats. Aren't goats considered a type of sheep?. If these bad people were completely outside Gods definition of sheep as his children, then why use goats? Would it not make more sense to use cattle or even better, swine?
To me a goat is a symbol of a rebellious sheep, and the scripture says that God will save All his sheep. This verse might indicate punishment but not eternally lost goats.
It depends on what Jesus, His definition of what he meant by 'goats'.
When it comes to MAthew 25:41
I see it as hell being upon the earth, not in some underworld region. It could be that through time, God will bring the devil and his angels upon the earth out in the open. The book of Isiah or ezekiel says that all kings shall behold thee and thou shalt be brought to ashes upon the earth in the sight of those that beheld the.
It could be that all the sheep who are saved will be safe in Gods kingdom his safety upon the earth, while the devil and his angels will be left outside the city gates, who will face HELL fire upon the earth.
Peter said that all the earth will burn with fervent heat.
If this is old testament type Sodom and Gomorah fire then they will be consumed and destroyed, but if it is spiritual fire of God, then they will be tormented in the presence of the lamb and holy angels, both the goats and the devil and his angels.
But the sheep, the saints will be safe in the kingdom of God
Jesus said something in the region of"You will see abraham and the prophets, but you will be cast outside, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
None of these judgments indicate eternal torment, they only indicate torment or distress for a period of time.
If it indicates an old testment fire of destruction, then this indicates ED. In the context of All men be saved, this could mean, that, they will be destroyed but brought back to life at some point, or it means that Jesus accomplish his mission and will save all men and not one person will be a goat and so mankind = zero goats, but the devil and his angels will be eternally destroyed, in this judgment that the scripture says was prepared for him.
:2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 03, 2010, 07:48:39 AM
"This place," as you describe aint and never was in His plan. Is this a trick question?
There a work by Thomas B. Thayer on endless punishment, all the way from OT to NT that noting is mentioned.
Interesting choice of words, but can there ever be anythig that was "never was in His plan"? If God knows everything (and He does :wink: ) then how can anything be outside of His plan? :happy3:
IF hell was created, it would have been during creation week. It's not mentioned. The old testament does not ever mention the kind of hell envisioned by many christians today. Remember in revelation God says, "Behold, I make all things new", he does NOT say, "Behold, I make all new things"
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 04, 2010, 03:16:04 PM
IF hell was created, it would have been during creation week. It's not mentioned. The old testament does not ever mention the kind of hell envisioned by many christians today. Remember in revelation God says, "Behold, I make all things new", he does NOT say, "Behold, I make all new things"
And if hell was created during the creation week, it was probably on a Monday. They always feel like hell to me. :laughing7:
THE
ORIGIN AND HISTORY
OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY
THOMAS B. THAYER:
http://www.godfire.net/Doctrine%20of%20Endless%20Punishment%20.htm
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 04, 2010, 04:52:28 PM
THE
ORIGIN AND HISTORY
OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY
THOMAS B. THAYER:
http://www.godfire.net/Doctrine%20of%20Endless%20Punishment%20.htm
:thumbsup: Thanks my friend :bigGrin:
My pleasure, dear Micah.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 04, 2010, 10:33:58 PM
My pleasure, dear Micah.
To use a less heard affirmitive on this sire "COOL" :bigGrin:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 04, 2010, 03:16:04 PM
IF hell was created, it would have been during creation week. It's not mentioned.
Depends. Some say hell is in the core of earth (or sun).
:dsunny:
(Matt. 25:41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED {or made ready} for the devil and his angels.
Well, from this we know it was created, prepared, or made ready. Wouldn't you think it was made ready when everything else was?
Has anyone noticed this before? In (Matt. 13:41,43) it says "The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND, AND THEM WHICH DO INIQUITY. In verse 43 it says "THEN THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN. Sounds like these are the same people doesn't it? Once things that offend and do iniquity are thrown out, then they will be righteous and shine forth.
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2010, 05:40:51 AM
From Gary;
"If salvation is deliverance from Hell in which most of mankind will be tormented forever, according to the Bible, when in God's plan of creation did He create this place?"
James
Hell= the DEAD and the Grave- this came into Place the second Eve gave birth to Thought- Call is a STATE of MIND\existance- The dead live within this Realm= The dead KNOW nothing= UNTIL LFE , Christ raises within-Hence we ALL move from DEATH to LIFE through the renewing of the soul :icon_flower:
The Hell[ETS] beilive just doesnt exist - Never have -
Quote from: CHB on January 18, 2011, 06:27:01 PM
(Matt. 25:41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED {or made ready} for the devil and his angels.
Well, from this we know it was created, prepared, or made ready. Wouldn't you think it was made ready when everything else was?
Has anyone noticed this before? In (Matt. 13:41,43) it says "The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND, AND THEM WHICH DO INIQUITY. In verse 43 it says "THEN THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN. Sounds like these are the same people doesn't it? Once things that offend and do iniquity are thrown out, then they will be righteous and shine forth.
CHB
That can easily be twisted into:
41 Sinners are collected and saints stay behind.
42 Sinners are cast in the fire.
43 Now the kingdom shines because only the saints are left (and sinners are in hell)
WW,
You are right, I always saw it like you said even until just now. :laughing7: All of a sudden it jumped out at me that this was talking about the righteous in verse 43. I always thought these in verse 41 weren't even allowed into the kingdom in the first place.
CHB
Ok big C,
Let's shake hands
(http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/597/597848/evans_torch_ff1_1111462331.jpg)
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 18, 2011, 07:00:11 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 18, 2011, 06:27:01 PM
(Matt. 25:41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED {or made ready} for the devil and his angels.
Well, from this we know it was created, prepared, or made ready. Wouldn't you think it was made ready when everything else was?
Has anyone noticed this before? In (Matt. 13:41,43) it says "The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND, AND THEM WHICH DO INIQUITY. In verse 43 it says "THEN THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN. Sounds like these are the same people doesn't it? Once things that offend and do iniquity are thrown out, then they will be righteous and shine forth.
CHB
That can easily be twisted into:
41 Sinners are collected and saints stay behind.
42 Sinners are cast in the fire.
43 Now the kingdom shines because only the saints are left (and sinners are in hell)
It "can" and it "is". It's conformed to a belief system of the very adversarial nature in man that the fire was "prepared" for. However, because we are all temples of his Holy Spirit, we are ALL heirs to this kingdom it speaks of. And as such, we ourselves are not to be destroyed, only the offensive nature . . .the adversarial parts of us . . .the carnailty "in" us will be purged. It may not be a pleasant thing . . .but it's definitely a temporary thing and it's definitely an act of love. The kingdom shines becuase it's inhabitants have NOT been separated from unbelieving inhabitants . . .but because the carnality in the existing inhabitants has been cleansed.
On a side note . . .we often refer to nonchristians as "unbelievers". Even our own perspective of these people has a negative tone. What if instead of them being nonbelievers, what they actually are, are "prebelievers". That just has a much more positive pronouncement with it don't ya think??
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
such HAY stubble and WOOD will perish in the Fire- those being the attributes of man [ carnal Mind - ]BUT it SAYS SAVED through the FIRE- this fires sounding GOOD- PTL IT """""""""""""""SAVES"""""""""""""
:icon_flower:
SUH-WEEET!!!
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 18, 2011, 09:25:59 PM
Ok big C,
Let's shake hands
(http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/597/597848/evans_torch_ff1_1111462331.jpg)
Wow WW!!! You must be one hot dude. :laughing7:
Hell was created in latin, by the Romans, somewhere between the 3rd and 6th century as they decided to transcribe early scriptures and texts from greek and hebrew into their language. But it will always make the majority of Christians very happy to preach hell, because that means they can one up other people, and use that to convert them. That always precedes having the person state the magic words, and then they feel this glorious power since they've been instrumental in bringing that poor hapless soul to salvation. Remember, no one knows another one's heart quite as well as evangelicals.
Odd thing with this hell doctrine is . . .it's based on fear and those that embrace it use that fear tactic to get their listener to react. And for us who don't beleive, they "become" afraid because they can't seem to fathom a gospel without hell as it's base. Can't take the "dangerous drop-off" sign down . . .people will blindly fall off the cliff. What they can't seem to grasp is, it's at the edge of the cliff that we learn how to fly.
'Hell' was created, as 'hell' is commonly understood to be, very early on, but not by God! As a place of torment it has been a part of ancient Pagan (non-Hebrew) beliefs and reached its epiphany in Greece. But Israel acquainted "hellfire" with fiery (national) judgment. And Sheol, of course, the place of the dead, was the grave and the dust of - Isaiah 14:11; Genesis 3:19 (Philippians 2:10).
"Hell" is being without God. But that can't happen! God is Life. Every little drop of Life is God - Genesis 1:1 - so to be without God is to not be. Period. "And the last thing to be vanquished is death" - 1 Corinthians 15:26. (The opposite of Life, is non-life.)
Jude, in verse 7, said "the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.. is the example of eternal fire" - Jude 7. Is there flames and fire there now, where Sodom and Gomorrah once were? Rather it is mounds of dust and ashes. Revelation 19:3 speaks of destruction as a "smoke that rises forever and ever." It is an eternal lesson which is remembered forever and ever, and then some. The smoke (memory) of it will rise forever in our memory and psyche. We cannot walk away from God in any means or fashion, because God is both Life and Perfection. To turn from Him in any little thing is to cease to be. It's an eternal "note to self (a great gift) which says "CANNOT BE DONE".
But this journey and lesson of hell (death) and hellfire, this narrative of God is/was unavoidable, unless God is creating an ant farm and robots. But He's not. He's of course creating the absolutely best thing possible, because He is, after all, Perfection. So the 'end' result of all this can only be Perfect. Nothing else is possible.
If Hell actually existed, it would have been created in the Beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth.
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2010, 05:40:51 AM
From Gary;
"If salvation is deliverance from Hell in which most of mankind will be tormented forever, according to the Bible, when in God's plan of creation did He create this place?"
To the Point.......Hell is a lie of the mother Church ( organized religion )... IMO
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on September 16, 2011, 03:06:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2010, 05:40:51 AM
From Gary;
"If salvation is deliverance from Hell in which most of mankind will be tormented forever, according to the Bible, when in God's plan of creation did He create this place?"
To the Point.......Hell is a lie of the mother Church ( organized religion )... IMO
Very good IMO :thumbsup:
Hell was created in the late 1500s and early 1600s, mostly by the King James Translators. They took the Hades of the Greeks, mixed it with the Inferno of the Romans, took the name Hel from their own Norse and Danish forefathers and stamped it on the words "sheol" and "gehenna" (around 70 times) and published it in such a way as to continue to intimidate the uneducated and fearful common people with the threat of eternal torment should they get bold enough to seek God for the truth for the "good news".
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 03:32:25 AM
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on September 16, 2011, 03:06:13 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2010, 05:40:51 AM
From Gary;
"If salvation is deliverance from Hell in which most of mankind will be tormented forever, according to the Bible, when in God's plan of creation did He create this place?"
To the Point.......Hell is a lie of the mother Church ( organized religion )... IMO
Very good IMO :thumbsup:
The church did not invent it, but rather some men did, then fed the poison to the church. I think the church was ET free for a while
Maybe that's why purgatory has been invented to return back to the old thoughts, that evil men get punished, but are eventually restored.
There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Hell has been and gone.
Hell was a place from where one could, while weeping and gnashing there teeth
watch the start of the great feast.They would observe the seating arragments .
While weeping and gnasing there teeth they would be told to get to the back of the line.
When was darkness invented? When was cold invented? You don't have to create void...or absence of. See I believe in "hell". Worship of self as god is "hell" because it is void of relationship with God. Living in a place of self worship is what I believe Jesus spoke about when he used the word Gehenna. It's that void that causes a weeping a gnashing of teeth...depression and anxiety. It's outside the gates...a trashed life...waste...hell. But, I do not believe that to be the end, because the gates to the Holy city are always open...He won't lose one even if it takes ages upon ages.
Hell was created along with everything else . . . it 'DOES' exist, just not in the tradtions of men mentality. Jesus stated IN THIS WORLD you will have TRIALS AND TRIBULATION . . .this world is hell. The bad things happening to good people is hell. The bad choices we make and others make is hell. Earth is hell . . .but be of good cheer . . .in other words . . .don't let it become your identity or an emphasis. I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD . . .
Hell came to fully manifest the day Adam was driven from the garden . . .but hell is not a permanent place. It will be cleansed, purified, cast into the lake of fire.
Nathan! Where have you been? Nice to see you back brother!
I find things come in seasons . . .
What's the worst that can happen?
The answer to that question is related to mans' imagination.
The person with the greatest intellectual capacity,
fueled by fear can tell you.
What hell is, where hell is, and when was hell created.
How fearful is hell, eternal torment?
It is as terrible as one can imagine.
You have to imagine hell because it does not exist in reality
The frustration comes when you "try" to explain to the general population of Christians that the hell that's been ingrained in them is man's "image" of hell. They've got all the Scriptures that "appear" to support their ideas because that's what came straight from their pulpits. No faith necessary, it's plain as day right there in the Bible!! An "idea" was planted in their minds, then it was watered with an "interpretation" of the Scripture. They "become" what they "behold" because they received a word from a man, not from the spirit of truth in them. There's no revelation, only an understanding of what Scripture appears to be saying. how many times have you seen their eyes glaze over at the very idea that hell . . .the hell they believe in . . .doesn't exist?
Quote from: Nathan on August 26, 2012, 09:56:40 AM
The frustration comes when you "try" to explain to the general population of Christians that the hell that's been ingrained in them is man's "image" of hell. They've got all the Scriptures that "appear" to support their ideas because that's what came straight from their pulpits. No faith necessary, it's plain as day right there in the Bible!! An "idea" was planted in their minds, then it was watered with an "interpretation" of the Scripture. They "become" what they "behold" because they received a word from a man, not from the spirit of truth in them. There's no revelation, only an understanding of what Scripture appears to be saying. how many times have you seen their eyes glaze over at the very idea that hell . . .the hell they believe in . . .doesn't exist?
Amen...and good to have you back.
:beerburp:
Does one ever "really" get away?? Took me forever to remember what my password was though.
MAN'S IMAGE OF HELL..........YEAH...WHEN SHADRACH MESHAK AND ABENDAGO REFUSED TO BOW TO BABYLON'S IMAGE OF
GOLD SILVER BRONZE AND IRON..THEY WERE THREATENED WITH IT TOO..
THAT FURNACE WAS A HELL OF THEIR OWN MAKING
H. O. G.
Head Of Gold
Bow Or Burn
B. O. B.
Babylon Or Bust
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
) land, earth
a) earth
1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)
2) earth (as opposed to heaven)
3) earth (inhabitants)
b) land
1) country, territory
2) district, region
3) tribal territory
4) piece of ground
5) land of Canaan, Israel
6) inhabitants of land
7) Sheol, land without return, (under) world
8) city (-state)
c) ground, surface of the earth
1) ground
2) soil
HEY EVERYONE!!!!!
Isa 30:33 For Tophet [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
Exodus 20;4 you shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or the earth below. you shall not bow down to them
or worship them.
when men of sin start making a false image of God in the heaven....it mars man in the image of God[serve what you bow down too]
is baal the lord? is Molech? Ashtoreth?...the coming of Christ and the revealing of Christ..He of which you have seen one you have seen the other
the Faithful and TRUE WITTNESS of the Father. to know God and to know the son is eternal life.
all false imag3es[dead idols as misrepresentations of the one true God] shall be set on fire/consumed by the breath of His coming...the man of lawlessness...
prophesied of in Jude[idol-image doctrines of liars]
purifying by fire so that an acceptable offering can be unto God in righteousness[man in the image og Christ/God]
and just as we have bore the corruptible image..so too..shall we all made over new into the incorruptible image of the one true God and His son
I have heard on various Christian talk shows that
God would not send people to hell.
Rather that these certain people would hate
God and his loving Kindness so much that they don't
want to spend eternity with him.
The fact that God would forgive everyone is anathema to them.
These people are now separated from God.
They do not know the Spirit of God.
These people worship the doctrine of hell
With-out hell these people have no reason to worship Jesus.
The doctrine of hell is the most blasphemous and
grieves the Holy Spirit the most.
Praise the lord Jesus and his faith in God the Father.
The Holy Spirit is refreshing all the children who have come out from under
this satanic doctrine.
We are free now to love Jesus simply because he is the most lovely of all.
Beautifully said
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
— Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)
and thus....'how could I have not seen that..it was right in front of my face..I must have been blind!"
Quote from: sheila on September 19, 2012, 11:50:02 PM
and thus....'how could I have not seen that..it was right in front of my face..I must have been blind!"
:nod:
It such a beautiful circumstance to be in.
To be blind and then to be touched by the Spirit of God and now see.
Jesus promised this and much more the Comforter would do.
Tell us Sheila what do you now see.
IT IS TOO WONDERFUL!! JUDGES 13;18
I saw the angel of the Lord ascend in fire. the strong man that binds the tares for burning....they marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded
the camp of God's people..the city He loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. This is the ascenion/rapture of the bride
as He destroys all the power of the enemy.[what if you saw the angels of heaven ascending and descending on the Son of Man
[come up here]
Then I saw a new heaven and a New earth I saw the Holy city coming down out of heaven prepared as a bride[it was granted unto her to be clothed in clean white
linen]
[
Now the dwelling of God is with men..and He will dwell with them......when the Glory returns unto the temple...truth God reigns...the man of sin
that had desolated and sit on the throne is done away with by the breath of His coming[satan rebuked in truth]
Acts 6;15 All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked 'intently" at Stephen,
AND THEY SAW THAT HIS FACE WAS LIKE THE FACE OF AN ANGEL.......
FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION ARE AS THE ANGELS
2 COR 3;18...... AND WE WHO WITH UNVEILED FACES ALL REFLECT THE LORD'S GLORY ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO HIS LIKENESS WITH EVER
INCREASING GLORY WHICH COMES FROM THE LORD WHO IS THE SPIRIT
July 24, 1903
Quote from: sheila on September 21, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
Acts 6;15 All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked 'intently" at Stephen,
AND THEY SAW THAT HIS FACE WAS LIKE THE FACE OF AN ANGEL.......
FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION ARE AS THE ANGELS
2 COR 3;18...... AND WE WHO WITH UNVEILED FACES ALL REFLECT THE LORD'S GLORY ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO HIS LIKENESS WITH EVER
INCREASING GLORY WHICH COMES FROM THE LORD WHO IS THE SPIRIT
Awesome!
Quote from: sheila on September 21, 2012, 11:26:24 PM
Acts 6;15 All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked 'intently" at Stephen,
AND THEY SAW THAT HIS FACE WAS LIKE THE FACE OF AN ANGEL.......
Guess that was pure gold shining in that fire.
Genesis 1:1 states that God made the heaven & the earth, not Hell.
John 1:3 states that apart from YHVH (Jesus) nothing was created. No exception was made for Hell.
Therefore, Hell never existed, does not now exist, and cannot exist. The Lake of Fire is not Hell, btw.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 24, 2015, 07:47:00 PM
Genesis 1:1 states that God made the heaven & the earth, not Hell.
John 1:3 states that apart from YHVH (Jesus) nothing was created. No exception was made for Hell.
Therefore, Hell never existed, does not now exist, and cannot exist. The Lake of Fire is not Hell, btw.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/hellisamyth.htm (http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/hellisamyth.htm)
Quote from: pollypinks on January 28, 2011, 04:31:14 PM
Hell was created in latin, by the Romans, somewhere between the 3rd and 6th century as they decided to transcribe early scriptures and texts from greek and hebrew into their language. But it will always make the majority of Christians very happy to preach hell, because that means they can one up other people, and use that to convert them. That always precedes having the person state the magic words, and then they feel this glorious power since they've been instrumental in bringing that poor hapless soul to salvation. Remember, no one knows another one's heart quite as well as evangelicals.
yayaa..'eternal hell' is real useful for it's proponents..makes 'em feel like mini saviors, like they got 'power', like one day they'll 'get even ', like the 'god' they worship got burning raging vengeance and boiling furious wrath on his mind :eek:..kind of like 'the sons of thunder' who wanted to rain down fire on the unbelievers :eek: u can sense Jesus exasperation with those guys :sigh: ..we all know what Jesus told those guys..yup. :laughing7:
One of the problems (just one of the problems) with fire-forever is that Christians seem to almost gloat to think that their personal enemies are headed to Hell. Just as the pagans say that when you point a finger at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you, these same Christians, I'm sure, have their own personal enemies who would like them to be headed to Hell. So it goes, a sort of passive-aggresive eye-for-an-eye, and in those terms we would all go to Hell. Happily, there is no such place except in people's minds, and God would save us from it if it did exist.
Pagans werent taught to love their enemies. Hell made perfect sense to them since their gods were made in their own image. Vengeful, remorseless, cruel.
Oh, and something I found in my recent research - the pagan "Hel" became the [?]Christian[?] "Hell." Syncretism at its finest.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 02, 2016, 01:52:18 AM
One of the problems (just one of the problems) with fire-forever is that Christians seem to almost gloat to think that their personal enemies are headed to Hell. Just as the pagans say that when you point a finger at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you, these same Christians, I'm sure, have their own personal enemies who would like them to be headed to Hell. So it goes, a sort of passive-aggresive eye-for-an-eye, and in those terms we would all go to Hell. Happily, there is no such place except in people's minds, and God would save us from it if it did exist.
As I have said before, I find this to be so true. Totally opposed to the verses to love our enemies; pray for those who sin against you, and so on.
Luke 6:
27 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful".
D.
Hell is a place of personal torment , you can run from everyone and everything , but you cannot run away from yourself , your own thoughts can torment you to death , worries and cares of the life , fear driven , without reason or purpose etc ...
Being bound up in disobedience like Cain was , It was only until he talked to God did he get any relief , Expressing his punishment was to much for him to bear and the Lord spared his life , even as miserable as it was aimlessly wandering in no mans land and hoping no one would find him and kill him , that fear of death was BORN in Cain from thought and guilt of disobedience , there is your sign :sigh:
Gen 4 14"Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
15So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold."
And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.
16Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Alas, how the word "hell" has and is continued to be used as hell, such as, " Hell is a place of personal torment ...." No offense intended rosered. :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2016, 02:09:18 PM
Alas, how the word "hell" has and is continued to be used as hell, such as, " Hell is a place of personal torment ...." No offense intended rosered. :Peace2:
Not at all Micah , I am speaking from experience not just a thought , though many thoughts have been hell to live through .
Such humbling experiences for sure ha ha :laughing7:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 24, 2015, 07:47:00 PM
Genesis 1:1 states that God made the heaven & the earth, not Hell.
John 1:3 states that apart from YHVH (Jesus) nothing was created. No exception was made for Hell.
Therefore, Hell never existed, does not now exist, and cannot exist. The Lake of Fire is not Hell, btw.
Happily, there is no such place except in people's minds, and God would save us from it if it did exist.
Oh, and something I found in my recent research - the pagan "Hel" became the [?]Christian[?] "Hell." Syncretism at its finest.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 02, 2016, 04:08:18 AM
Pagans werent taught to love their enemies. Hell made perfect sense to them since their gods were made in their own image. Vengeful, remorseless, cruel.
Quote from: Dandelion on February 02, 2016, 12:37:10 PM
Totally opposed to the verses to love our enemies; pray for those who sin against you, and so on.
Luke 6:
27 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful".
:banana: :dsunny: :cloud9: :thumbsup:
Rev 20:14 (Concordant Literal Version) - And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.
Young's Literal - And the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death
King James - And death and 'hell' (very poor translation!:) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I was thinking this morning how the fire-forever folks must pick and choose [hunt and peck] so-called "proof" texts, and we know they must also ignore a boatload of contrary texts. In my reading through my KJV, I find that nearly all texts can be easily fitted into a "No-Hell" model, while very few can be shoehorned into the "Hell" model, mostly by way of bad translation.
Yeah it is amazing how the people who believe in "eternal a torment called hell" makes them almost gleeful they ain't a going and are very comfortable that a great many are. :sigh:
Quote from: rosered on February 02, 2016, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 02, 2016, 02:09:18 PM
Alas, how the word "hell" has and is continued to be used as hell, such as, " Hell is a place of personal torment ...." No offense intended rosered. :Peace2:
Not at all Micah , I am speaking from experience not just a thought , though many thoughts have been hell to live through .
Such humbling experiences for sure ha ha :laughing7:
Hey I kid. But when you say, ...."though many thoughts have been hell to live through" You are saying..thoughts have been (grave, pit, unseen) to live through?
Have we all not taken the misinterpetation of the word and worked it into our vocabulary? If there is no hell why do we who don't believe in hell use it represent such a place?
I'm just rambling :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
coz 'hell' is a pit and the grave...........he who digs a pit will fall into it....
if I make my bed in 'hell' Thou art there...if the blind lead the blind they will both fall in the ditch.
hell is a real word that has a real meaning. because men have given it a definition that is in error..doesn't
take away the truth of it's real meaning.
juat as metaphorically we can 'paint ourselves into a corner' metaphorically we can fail to see what lies ahead
and our actions/decisions land is in a hole/ditch etc.
sin, death and the grave is a pit and snare of which Our Father and Jesus have had to pull us from.....
OH.
Of course the real word is sheol or hades, not hell which now days means torture in fire.
Quote from: bushy on February 03, 2016, 09:05:47 PM
Of course the real word is sheol or hades, not hell which now days means torture in fire.
:thumbsup: Bushy H e double hockey sticks , sheol , grave , unseen in the old and Gehenna in the new ''after the cross '' Judgement come .
Just translation errors Bibles have improved greatly , I do feel pity on those whom will not examine any other translation that just one ,
The one they think is perfect and very one else is deceived :sigh:
Quote from: marie glen on February 09, 2011, 04:50:33 AM
Jude, in verse 7, said "the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.. is the example of eternal fire" - Jude 7.
Pretty much my thoughts when I think about Sodom & Gomorrah and when I believed (reluctantly) in ET this was what I thought of. There was a thing in Genesis when a mass judgement by water was later followed by a localized judgement by fire and because, although God is ultimately beyond all things, the Bible anthropomorphizes Him so much He does things that look at first glance like He's got human character flaws. So when He acts in anger it can look as though He's lost His temper and acted rashly. Even though God has perfect anger so He acts perfectly. This however leads to the feeling that like His gifts are irrevocable and so eternal His judgments are also so because He never has cause to change them. Of course, the catch in that is that it presupposes He only had an eternal sentence at His disposal because that's the only sentance that would be just, a concept that is not supported.
I always have a problem with Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain in that I don't know what to do with their story. They're in the Bible and clearly meant to teach and illustrate something but I've struggled to know what to do with the information that it's righteous to destroy a city or cities if that contain less than ten righteous people, but if they contain that number or more it's not. What am I supposed to do with that?
When I was stuck in the ET camp and didn't know how to get out of it a lot of things bothered me, like Israel and the covenant and the fact that following the covenant (as was believed at the time) was meant to turn Israel into a model nation and an object lesson for the world, the surrounding nations were meant to, (except no because Israel were sure to fail) see the prosperity of Israel as it followed its covenant and be inspired to follow its example. There is also the idea that it was meant to be a reflection of the Kingdom of God.
So, we can use that, some people in Israel were unclean, if you were unclear you were supposed to be put outside the city until such time as you were clean again and then there was a process to follow for you to return when you were (if ever). Now this looks an awful lot like an object lesson for sin, separation, forgiveness and reconciliation. So far so good.
But what about capital crimes. This bothered me in the past, if a person was caught committing a capital crime in Israel and put to death obviously there was no chance of then coming back into the city, the gates weren't left open for then.
The object lesson here bothered me a lot more because it seemed to suggest that there were offenses where forgiveness and reconciliation were not possible and the final verdict was eternal separation, a concept that sounds very like the state historic Christianity calls 'Hell'.
So what do we do. Having thought about this I have realized that we invoke the resurrection of Jesus to change the way things are. Because before the resurrection of Jesus death was death, presumably everyone stayed dead so even people who never committed capital crimes (or were never caught committing capital crimes) would still eventually die due to being in the sin trap. So the line of reasoning doesn't work so well except to show that capital crimes can bring around receiving your wage a lot more quickly. Other than that there's no reason those who commit capital crimes and are executed should receive any especially large lack of mercy when they are raised at the judgement and will be judged by the same criteria as everyone else.
This was an interesting thread a few things I particularly took note of. The argument that the Bible doesn't say when God created Hell for one. I'm not sure I can give that much credence myself, the Bible doesn't say when God created the angels or when Satan and some of that number fell either, but many Christians accept it happened. Still this probably isn't really the thread for that.
Also someone mentioned the Sheep and the Goats, I have a lot to say about that but this is definitely not the place for that.
I will say though that as far as I know goats are not considered a type of sheep. They are however, as I understand, the most valuable piece of livestock a Jewish farmer can own the the possible exception of cattle.
How do you get that, Satan isn't even mentioned? And it says it's about the king of Tyre who I imagine to be a human male.
Quote from: Nathan on January 18, 2011, 09:36:28 PM
On a side note . . .we often refer to nonchristians as "unbelievers". Even our own perspective of these people has a negative tone. What if instead of them being nonbelievers, what they actually are, are "prebelievers". That just has a much more positive pronouncement with it don't ya think??
.."prebelievers"..yes, I like that. :dsunny:
Quote from: CST on July 22, 2016, 01:32:26 PM
How do you get that, Satan isn't even mentioned? And it says it's about the king of Tyre who I imagine to be a human male.
:thumbsup:
Thank you CST and Micah, I stand corrected. Just looked up the commentaries on this passage, and you guys are correct.
So sorry. I know I should never get on the computer when I am very tired. Bad things happen. :dunno2:
I will remove it.
D.
Oh, don't do that. You make us look stupid and create a discontinuous thread which others come to and have no idea what we're talking about. Given how the Bible is written there could be allegorical references to Satan all over the place, the phrasing here is sure dramatic, I just can't see how you can get it and apparently you can't now either.
Also remember the commentaries aren't the first and foremost authority, 'the many' of them will still argue for the doctrine of eternal torment from the text they're commenting on.
"satan" is not a who(proper name)....satan means adversary or opponent. Today we see that the USA a is called the great satan meaning we are considered an adversary. :Peace2:
Well, yes and no. Clearly there is a very large proportion of the established Christian church that believes in the spiritual reality of a being called 'Satan' who wanders the world trying to get humans to commit sin. The mechanism may be debated but not the existence of the being who is actually called Satan. Many Biblical names are descriptors that doesn't mean they're not also names.
Satan is also called Satanail, which I think is a corruption of Satanael which would, I imagine, mean adversary of God. Of course, curiously that name is not found anywhere in canon but only in pseudopigraphal text though I'm not sure what to do with that, surely it does not mean that because, in the Bible, this being is only called 'adversary' and not 'adversary of God' makes him any less an adversary of God?
Either way the term 'Satan' is in the Bible, often in places where it seems to suggest a proper noun. Therefore I see only two possibilities. The term 'Satan' does refer to an actual being that exists and attempts to undermine God's purposes in the world in ways often understood as, or completely different from, those describe my modern Christianity. Or else the term 'satan' refers to some capacity in human reasoning that enables them to persuade themselves to make decisions in opposition to God's purposes from them and others even if you asked them directly they would say this is the last thing they wanted to do.
I find the second much more appealing, a lot of 'official' churches, however, much prefer the first. Not sure why it doesn't really help anyone any.
I am not sure that "whether it helps anyone in anyway" is at issue. What helps is knowing the mind of God and being appropriated by the truth in a renewed mind. As far as I can tell the scriptures show the adversary as an entity, who works in a system that is permeated by a spirit, that is shared among men and among verious levels of spirits that are defined as demons, principalities and powere, etc.
If this is not in fact true then much of the scripture is not true, including the gospels and Acts, Job, Daniel, and portions of the epistles.
If the adversary is only an aspect of man, then Paul was an ignorant believer in myths and fairy tales who took advantage of the ignorance of men to foist a false cosmology upon them.
If Jesus did not cast out demons He was not who He said He was, or the record we have of Him is untrue- exagerated myths and allegories. If that is the case then the record from which we draw faith in supernatural events such as the virgin birth, are unreliable. Why then should we believe in the resurrection?
Perhaps it is just an allegory for a better way of living by the teachings of Jesus- not an actual fact of history upon which we base our salvation.
My point is that if the scriptures are unreliable at one point, they are unreliable at all points, because we are not speaking of a a minor exception or a variation of wording between two accoints, here. Satan and demons are a frequent part of the gospel narrative.
If it remains for us to separate out the parts where Paul, or Jesus, or the writers of the gospel were just pulling our legs- or just ignorant... then why attribute to the scriptures any more authority than the writings of other religions, or even the myths of other nations?
You seem to be arguing here against all forms of allegory and parable. Like the parable of the sower doesn't work unless thee's an actual sower who sows actual seeds remember the devil is referenced in the explanation to the parable of the sower two but only in relation to the seed that fell on the path. The reason the other seeds don't take is explained by other factors. This would seriously limit what Satan can actually do.
At several point this thread has made the argument that Hell doesn't exist because nowhere does the Bible say when God made it. Well the Bible doesn't say when God made Satan either so by the same reasoning Satan does exist. But even using that sort of reasoning it's much more likely that Hell exists than Satan.
The Bible teaches that God reveals His truth to people gradually, He opens their eyes gradually. How to we know that the historic belief in 'the Devil and his angels' wasn't simply God wasn't prepared to open peoples eyes to the truth of at that time? That they couldn't get their head around the idea of mental illness and tectonic shifts and gravity. He had to let the grow and learn it to serve His purposes so He used the metaphor of the evil spirits to explain when Jesus cured the mentally ill. There are a lot of theological problems with the doctrine of Satan. It certainly isn't possible to believe in Satan and free will at the same time, not after you've read what happened in Eden. But I'm starting to feel we're going way off topic and i may also be missing what you actually just said. I may have misled you in what I wrote initially, looking back there seems to be something missing but I can't quite remember what I was going to write.
I'm also not sure you've understood my last remark either, if you're trying to paraphrase it you don't seem to have caught the correct spirit of it. I was trying to say that the only reason I can think of for the 'official church' to like the idea of Satan is because they like the idea of Satan going to Hell like all the bad people. I didn't say that but my point was that if Satan's like that we're got ourselves an enemy we can struggle to see or identify and there's no reason other than pride that the 'official church' should think they'd be immune to His manipulations and so not end up in Hell themselves.
One other argument people here like to make against Hell is that it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament. Now the term 'satan' is used in the Old Testament of course, but not in anyway where he could clearly be identified as a real being. Without exception, when used in the OT the term either seems to or could be taken to mean a human agency. Or it could be taken poetically as a symbol to mean something else. The name 'Lucifer' in the book of Isaiah tends these days to be conceded as a mistranslation of how the text should be understood.
I do get your final point and am very sympathetic to it. However, I would point out that what your suggesting that because of the actually infallibility of the New Testament writers the Bible is infallible in the text its self it means we know longer need to depend on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth of the Bible because what it says on the page is true without qualification or explanation. I don't accept that.
We have to distinguish between what is allegory and metaphor and what is narrative. The Holy Spirit is the writer of the scriptures (the scriptures are God-breathed,....holy men moved of Gd etc.)
So the existence of Satan and demons is not an issue of metaphor, unless the gospels are in themselves metaphors, not narratives. When Jesus tells a parable it is a metaphor. When Mark records Jesus' actions and words, it is historical narrative.
When Jesus frees the Gadarene madman from demonic bondage, that is narrative. When Paul casts a spirit of divination out of the prophetess of Diana, that is narrative. If those acts are allegories, or metaphors for elements of man's character, then the whole Bible is an allegory written by uninformed men of myth and monster and psychology rules over their spiritual insights(my opinion).
If Satan is a metaphor in Job, then the whole book of Job is an allegory. If Satn is an allegory at the mount of temptation, then the entire gospel must be an allegory. If God has left us to guess what is allegory and what is historical narrative, then imo, the Holy Spirit doesnt have much to do with the scriptures.
So this is simple common sense that I believe the Holy Spirit confirms, because He is wisdom.
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
I think it is clear that we battle against the powers and spirits of darkness, and not against men (flesh and blood). The devil is clearly stated to be, at the very least, part of the evil we battle.
D.
Quote from: CST on July 25, 2016, 08:54:35 PM
At several point this thread has made the argument that Hell doesn't exist because nowhere does the Bible say when God made it. Well the Bible doesn't say when God made Satan either so by the same reasoning Satan does exist. But even using that sort of reasoning it's much more likely that Hell exists than Satan.
One other argument people here like to make against Hell is that it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament.
slight change of subject but if an eternal hell exists, (which I believe it does not) a place where God torments humans without end..even if God leaves humans there in their own misery forever without actually tormenting them..well, we are all lost because a god capable of doing such a thing could only be evil.This is the point the hellists miss.
:thumbsup:
Another interesting verse - Rev 12:9 refers to "the great dragon, serpent of old, called the devil and Satan/adversary, who deceives the whole world.. and his angels.."
Quote from: eaglesway on July 26, 2016, 12:52:05 AM
We have to distinguish between what is allegory and metaphor and what is narrative. The Holy Spirit is the writer of the scriptures (the scriptures are God-breathed,....holy men moved of Gd etc.)
So the existence of Satan and demons is not an issue of metaphor, unless the gospels are in themselves metaphors, not narratives. When Jesus tells a parable it is a metaphor. When Mark records Jesus' actions and words, it is historical narrative.
When Jesus frees the Gadarene madman from demonic bondage, that is narrative. When Paul casts a spirit of divination out of the prophetess of Diana, that is narrative. If those acts are allegories, or metaphors for elements of man's character, then the whole Bible is an allegory written by uninformed men of myth and monster and psychology rules over their spiritual insights(my opinion).
If Satan is a metaphor in Job, then the whole book of Job is an allegory. If Satn is an allegory at the mount of temptation, then the entire gospel must be an allegory. If God has left us to guess what is allegory and what is historical narrative, then imo, the Holy Spirit doesnt have much to do with the scriptures.
So this is simple common sense that I believe the Holy Spirit confirms, because He is wisdom.
Why, that logic doesn't follow your saying that when the Bible is recording historical events in the Gospels they can't contain any symbolic language mixed in. It all represents something and, to my opinion you're making a category error. You are conflating the weight of what the Bible reveals about God with how it presents God's world.
As I said in the Parable of the sower Jesus says, 'And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:' (Matthew 13:3-4)
And explains it thus: 'When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.' (Matthew 13:19)
Obviously the 'wicked one' would be understood to be Satan even though Jesus doesn't use the word, represented one being by a multitude of 'fowls' and said that even prior to the evil one taking the 'word of the kingdom' away it is already not understood by the hearer, the evil one is described in having no part in the other two scenarios where it appears word that is 'understood' initially is later abandoned.
Why is it that you can't see that literal word and metaphor can be blended. You don't believe in Thanatos and Hades do you even though John records both beings appearing in the Revelation? Why not? Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire and than Death (Thanatos) and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Now two of those beings do not exist, not as actual beings. Why should I therefore believe the third one, Satan, does? Why should I view Satan differently from the other two?
When Jesus, rebukes, Peter saying 'Get behind me, Satan.' He's not trying to say that Peter has suddenly disappeared and been replaced with the Devil, He isn't using the term literally. But your argument that doesn't allow symbolic language to be mixed with literal narrative would suggest that's what's happened.
The miracle of the Gadarene swine is a very specialised miracle. Of course, the term used is Legion but the man has all the hallmarks of having a multiple personality disorder by the sounds of it. What happens there is that Jesus is making a point about Jewish racism, when He cites a Jewish idiom rather ironically, 'cast not your pearls before swine' meaning don't share God's precious election with Gentiles, basically. A few passages later and He's performing a miracle with swine. If I believe that Legion is an actual demon what happens to it after the swine drown? Does it return to Satan to be sent out again back into the world to torment someone else or indeed find its way back to the swineherd again? That rather limits Jesus's achievement if that can happen and so far as I know demons can't die that easily.
And what about the 'prophetess' of Diana (not sure where you get Diana from Acts 16 doesn't mention that detail). I see two options, either she made real prophesies that came true, in which case it's hard to see how she could be offensive to God's order or else she made false prophesies that did not come true in which case she's false prophet which technically, of course, is no prophet at all. As I recall though whatever was happening in the girls head she was very glad to be free of her 'gift' owing to the fact of other people, who were less happy, had been exploiting her. It's a strange story actually, because clearly she seems to fall into the first camp. She follows Paul around for days declaring, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." which, is perfect true and Paul eventually gets fed up and exorcises her. He doesn't seem to do it purely out the goodness of his heart.
It's very strange because it doesn't say Paul is expelling a demon, it doesn't say the 'spirit of divination' is evil. It seems to be proclaiming Jesus' apostles and their authority to the community which hardly seems to serve the Devils's purposes. Then Paul simply expels it due to a lack of patience and not for any obviously virtuous reasons. This is very paradoxical, if this woman did have a demon what was it's purpose. Jesus once said 'he who is not with us is for us' about people who cast out demons in His name when the disciples tried to stop people not of their group. If this woman has a demon, it's a demon whose message makes it seem to be 'for' Jesus. That makes no sense. And then Paul seems to expel it in a fit of pique. On lack of better evidence I have to understand that the purpose of this is of free this woman from bondage to her wicked masters the spirit in her having served its purpose. I don't know what else to do with it.
Now, Job. What you are saying doesn't logical follow. The book of Job has no clear setting anyway I'm not sure what it looses if it is allegory but even taken a history in the main body that doesn't mean the heavenly court bit in given that it would have to take place outside natural space-time.
Here's what I think about the Book of Job. First it says Job is righteous. How by works of the law or faith of Jesus. Well, pre-incarnation it may be but it has to be faith of Jesus. No one is righteous by works of the law and the way God talks to Satan certainly suggests He has some strong belief in Job. 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?' High praise, indeed. And than Satan has the audacity to try to tell God he's wrong. Well, this is certain interesting but it's not entirely helpful to most of us. God's description of Job would hardly suit any of us, surely. So that would suggest that there are plenty of humans Satan could accuse and God would have to concede his point. I hard to uphold the thought that God has it in Him just to bat away all Satan's accusations with some explanation for the accused 'real' intentions. Some of us are guilty. In fact the many of us are guilty Satan only has to point the finger and accuse and he'll find someone guilty of something. So I really don't know what to do with the fact Job is 'righteous' or indeed what Satan is trying to achieve. What would happen if Satan was shown to be right? Well he can't be, can he, it would contradict God.
So how do I understand Job? I understand it by the fact the after the beginning of the book Satan completely disappears from the text as Job starts to despair. And then three of his 'friends' show up who don't seem all that friendly and they try to get him to concede, as I recall, that all this misfortune has befallen him because he, in fact, is not righteous. My suspicion, is is that these friends have become envious of Job and have raised complaints against him in their hearts, in prayer quite possibly. And these complaints have gone up to God and the introduction is a mechanism by which it is shown how God receives and responds to these complaints.
After all Satan simply vanishes from the text when his role is complete. God isn't seen to rebuke Satan for his error, he does, however, rebuke the 'friends'.
I don't need a real Satan to explain Job when a poetic explanation employing the actual characters of the text will suffice. That said I prefer this presentation of Satan to other presentations, his role is so much less problematic than other ones.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 26, 2016, 01:24:50 AM
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
I think it is clear that we battle against the powers and spirits of darkness, and not against men (flesh and blood). The devil is clearly stated to be, at the very least, part of the evil we battle.
D.
That doesn't really prove the Devil exists, again 'the Devil' is simply a word meaning calumniator or slanderer, not necessarily a specific evil spirit. Very often in the Greek the singular and plural words look identical. Often times, as usual, the theology of the translator makes huge differences to what's written.
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2016, 01:59:25 PM
Another interesting verse - Rev 12:9 refers to "the great dragon, serpent of old, called the devil and Satan/adversary, who deceives the whole world.. and his angels.."
Again if you are using that to show that the Devil exists I have to ask if you also believe that Thanatos and Hades exist? In the other thread you wrote 'And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?' Satan causes huge problems for that reasoning.
Quote from: CST on July 26, 2016, 09:13:23 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2016, 01:59:25 PM
Another interesting verse - Rev 12:9 refers to "the great dragon, serpent of old, called the devil and Satan/adversary, who deceives the whole world.. and his angels.."
Again if you are using that to show that the Devil exists I have to ask if you also believe that Thanatos and Hades exist? In the other thread you wrote 'And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?' Satan causes huge problems for that reasoning.
Not if one believes angels too were given rationality with an offshoot of it being the ability to make choices.. Since it's written some angels "left their first place" (position)... And isn't that part of the problem with choice before God's law (love. purity) is deeply engraved upon every heart and mind?
When i read in Revelation chapter 12 by using the interlinear Greek New Testament - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2012:9 - "the dragon who is called slanderer and adversary who leads astray, deceives, causes to wander, the complete, whole, entire, inhabited-world" I can't think of it as metaphor for a part of mankind's psyche, mostly because the fallen nature in man is plainly gone into elsewhere in the scripture. I usually figure if something is plainly spoken, why then veil it in metaphor?
..that's my thinking anyway! :gsmile:
"Hades" before legend, i believe simply meant unseen.. and thanatos before legend, or the actual word, means merely death.. "Tartarus" I believe is metaphor for darkness, even darkness of a very dark nature :faint: .. but man will build his myths and legends.. I believe the angels which sinned are locked into their darkness, not able to reverse their course, now being corrupt and are thus locked into judgment..
I do think the slanderer and adversary influences all psyche's.. engineered that way by our heavenly Father so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson all at once, together (all in heaven and earth).. kind of speeding things up that way?
Pursue or not to pursue :sigh:
Here's the thing I see CST. Jesus said, "If I cast out demons by the finger of God then the kingdom of God has come upon you".
He said, "These signs will follow those who believe" and listed, they will cast out demons. So in the context of the whole scripture, any metaphors for Satan, the adversary, the wickedness of men- do not preclude the flat statements of Jesus, or the narrative history of the gospel. My point is not that there are no metaphorical references to any of the things you mentioned. My point is that those metaphors do not trump the plain statements of our Lord, nor the record of His and the apostles actions in relationship to Satan and demons.
So, Satan and demons cannot be limited to metaphor without excising a lot of scriptures and directly devaluing the testimony of the Lord and the writers of the gospels. The sorcerer Bar- Jesus(Acts) was not metephorically blinded by the Holy Spirit at Paul's word(Acts 13). Annanias and Saphira were not metaphorically slain by the Holy Spiri(Acts t. The madman of the Gadarenes was not metaphorically delivered and made whole by the casting out of Legion. Job is not a fairy tale. Mark's gospel is not a fairy tale or an allegory, it is a record of actual events. Among those events are the parables spoken by the Lord, but Mark was not speaking in parables, he was recording actual events. Luke was not espousing hyperbole- he was recording actual events.
In Thessalonians Paul speaks of the anti-christ,
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
This power and deception does not occur in a vacuum. Satan operates through man's co-operation, and it is a union of spirit, not unlike our union with the Lord. A mutual, consensual integration of works and attitudes. The scriptures make this clear. The only way around all this is:
1) To say Jesus, Paul knew better but were speaking to primitive men in primitive terms
This does not work because Jesus and Paul turned the world upside down and did not need to, or care to, speak down to us.
2) Jesus and Paul were ignorant in relationship to what we modern educated elevated Christians understand about Satan and demons.
This does not work because Jesus is the chief cornerstone and the fountainhead of all spiritual revelation and Paul was one of the foundation stones of the kingdom of God.
2) The scriptures are largely hyperbole and mythical exaggerations made to make a point- not to be believed as history or actual events and actual words of the persons written of within them.
This does not work because if this is the case they have no authority and all debate and doctrine is nonsense and speculation based in allegorical understandings.
IMO, This is the point where biblical universalism often begins to mutate into the kind of universalism that thinks it transcends the testimony of the scriptures and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]
HI Micah!
If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?
...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..
I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..
The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:
I wonder.. Is it the thought of some believers that angels are metaphor?
Quote from: darryl on July 26, 2016, 01:37:49 AM
Quote from: CST on July 25, 2016, 08:54:35 PM
At several point this thread has made the argument that Hell doesn't exist because nowhere does the Bible say when God made it. Well the Bible doesn't say when God made Satan either so by the same reasoning Satan does exist. But even using that sort of reasoning it's much more likely that Hell exists than Satan.
One other argument people here like to make against Hell is that it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament.
slight change of subject but if an eternal hell exists, (which I believe it does not) a place where God torments humans without end..even if God leaves humans there in their own misery forever without actually tormenting them..well, we are all lost because a god capable of doing such a thing could only be evil.This is the point the hellists miss.
That's less a change of subject and more a return to the proper subject. Obviously 'hellists' don't believe God is evil, they rather think humans are more evil then we're inclined to imagine we are so it's perfectly just of God to push those that can't ever stop being evil ever out of His good presence.
But it might be a little bit more than leaving them in their own misery.
Firstly, imagine Hell is a real place, when was it created? Why does it have to be created yet? God could create it later perhaps it isn't needed till judgement anyway. Of course certain readings (the 'popular' ones) of the Sheep and the Goats suggest it is made but it's possible that could be presented as not yet complete.
But it doesn't need to exist and this is what is pertinent to what you said. Imagine that human beings are currently living in the light of God, in His mercy. God gives us countless blessings that are taste samples of the world to come. He gives them so much that they are essential to our welfare but we are acclimatized to them and don't see them for what they are. Come the judgment God distributes His gifts much more justly and only the righteous receive the blessings God intends for them while the unrighteous not only don't receive those blessings but God no longer gives the former blessings they had in life that they never really appreciated.
No obviously, your argument still stands. In fact I don't think we even need to go that far. We don't need to imagine that God as being evil we just need to ask is that really the best He can do? It's a process that serves the good of precisely no one although it could be a finite form of Hell without any difficulty I see. My only concern is for people's sanity if God were to execute justice to its fullest. I suspect that may therefore be a restriction too.
That's really something is t it?! How some believe hell is a place, I guess, created when the universe and earth was.. And is (likely?) a subterranean place of fiery torment where the devil ("slanderer") and his minions get to toast all unsaved people, large and small, and toss them around with their pitchforks.. Hmmm, oh dear. Yes, either Yahweh most high and al-mighty couldn't do any better, or He just doesn't care. And how is this punishment for Satan ("adversary")??
I'm being sarcastic aren't I? :Chinscratch:
Of course, I know that's not the vision of 'hell' all have - what with the pitchforks and all.. But indeed, many do believe unsaved folks are cast there upon their death.. Just imagine some poor 'soul' who lived under Audi (dang iPhone spellcheck!) Amin or the like all their life (and never heard the Good News of the Gospel) finding themselves there at their death.. Without ever facing their judge or being given the chance, well, of any kind..
And we wonder why atheism has flourished?? [Note: some of the nicest, most conscientious persons I know, are atheist. So the simple "they reject God's will because of their sinful, hard and rebellious heart", to me, simply does not fly and is in no way logical as a blanket reasoning. I believe the hell myth as become part of the whole package has made the gospel very hard to believe. And in atheist vs Christian discussion, God as mean maker of hell is a top comment- that and how modern scientific theory has disproved God :LH:
For those who believe the LOF is 'hell' and people are only cast there after judgment.. just imagine the subterranean fiery pit existing empty all this time..
(Never mind that 'hell' / hades, before legend, simply the grave?/unseen? are cast into the LOF, the 2nd death)
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 04:01:41 PM
That's really something is t it?! How some believe hell is a place, I guess, created when the universe and earth was.. And is (likely?) a subterranean place of fiery torment where the devil ("slanderer") and his minions get to toast all unsaved people, large and small, and toss them around with their pitchforks.. Hmmm, oh dear. Yes, either Yahweh most high and al-mighty couldn't do any better, or He just doesn't care. And how is this punishment for Satan ("adversary")??
I'm being sarcastic aren't I? :Chinscratch:
Of course, I know that's not the vision of 'hell' all have - what with the pitchforks and all.. But indeed, many do believe unsaved folks are cast there upon their death.. Just imagine some poor 'soul' who lived under Audi (dang iPhone spellcheck!) Amin or the like all their life (and never heard the Good News of the Gospel) finding themselves there at their death.. Without ever facing their judge or being given the chance, well, of any kind..
And we wonder why atheism has flourished?? [Note: some of the nicest, most conscientious persons I know, are atheist. So the simple "they reject God's will because of their sinful, hard and rebellious heart", to me, simply does not fly and is in no way logical as a blanket reasoning. I believe the hell myth as become part of the whole package has made the gospel very hard to believe. And in atheist vs Christian discussion, God as mean maker of hell is a top comment- that and how modern scientific theory has disproved God :LH:
For those who believe the LOF is 'hell' and people are only cast there after judgment.. just imagine the subterranean fiery pit existing empty all this time..
(Never mind that 'hell' / hades, before legend, simply the grave?/unseen? are cast into the LOF, the 2nd death)
And demons, atheists find the concept of demons particularly spurious. It's hard to know why people came to believe that Satan was ruler of Hell when the Bible specifically states he's in there to be tormented. If any of the characters described is likely to be representative of the torment going on in the Lake of Fire it would be Hades I'd have thought.
The fact we don't have to imagine Hell existing all the time was one of my above arguments. We only need to imagine it existing in time for the judgement.
Hell is a complicated concept, everlasting damnation isn't though - it's wrong.
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2016, 11:48:39 PM
Quote from: CST on July 26, 2016, 09:13:23 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2016, 01:59:25 PM
Another interesting verse - Rev 12:9 refers to "the great dragon, serpent of old, called the devil and Satan/adversary, who deceives the whole world.. and his angels.."
Again if you are using that to show that the Devil exists I have to ask if you also believe that Thanatos and Hades exist? In the other thread you wrote 'And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?' Satan causes huge problems for that reasoning.
Not if one believes angels too were given rationality with an offshoot of it being the ability to make choices.. Since it's written some angels "left their first place" (position)... And isn't that part of the problem with choice before God's law (love. purity) is deeply engraved upon every heart and mind?
When i read in Revelation chapter 12 by using the interlinear Greek New Testament - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2012:9 - "the dragon who is called slanderer and adversary who leads astray, deceives, causes to wander, the complete, whole, entire, inhabited-world" I can't think of it as metaphor for a part of mankind's psyche, mostly because the fallen nature in man is plainly gone into elsewhere in the scripture. I usually figure if something is plainly spoken, why then veil it in metaphor?
..that's my thinking anyway! :gsmile:
"Hades" before legend, i believe simply meant unseen.. and thanatos before legend, or the actual word, means merely death.. "Tartarus" I believe is metaphor for darkness, even darkness of a very dark nature :faint: .. but man will build his myths and legends.. I believe the angels which sinned are locked into their darkness, not able to reverse their course, now being corrupt and are thus locked into judgment..
I do think the slanderer and adversary influences all psyche's.. engineered that way by our heavenly Father so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson all at once, together (all in heaven and earth).. kind of speeding things up that way?
You're trying to cite the Epistle of Jude there:
'And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;' (Jude. 1:6)
which continues:
'just as Sodom and Gomor'rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.' (Jude 1:7)
Click! I'm not quite sure how comparable the angels actually are to Sodom and Gomorrah here but apparently Jude is trying.
Do you need to invoke some sort hyper angles to explain the fall of the angels themselves or do you believe that angels conceived their rebellious thoughts independently? Because man didn't and this is the start of the problem. If you believe in a literal Satan who, unlike his followers has no yet been bound in those chains but allowed to roam three throughout the world than the fall of man is not comparable to the fall of angels. Eve never conceived a rebellious though herself neither did Adam but it was put into her head by the serpent and she in turn passed it on to Adam. Which would suggest that if God had just kept the serpent out of Eden man would have been incapable of sinning, we certainly can't know otherwise.
As it is we don't know if having sinned once man now is capable of devising independent acts of rebellion or will still only rebel when Satan puts into his head to do so. This is a problem because it undermines justice at the judgement. If people are sinning because Satan is putting into their head to do so as soon as he goes into the lake of Fire it's job done. There's no point judging anyone because it can't be done fairly. Putting Satan out the picture will stop them sinning but will also mean the no longer know who they are. You can't punish people for listening to Satan when you've put Satan away. It won't be corrective because the removal of the one making them sin has already solved the problem. As it is with Satan in the equation I have no way of knowing my own thoughts, no one does. If I have a rebellious thought regardless of whether I follow it or not, is it my thought from my dark character or is it something Satan put into my head? How can I know? How can any of us know?
Thanatos does mean 'death', but it is also the name of the Greek God of death and is personified in the book of Revelation, that personification doesn't make you think it's a real being either any more than you thing Hades, Greek God of the Dead who's name, yes, may mean 'unseen' but I understand we're less sure about that. He apparently has a hat that could make him invisible and got cross if you used his name. Apparently, he was a Greek Voldemort. You don't believe in hades, you're on record in not believing in the Beasts of the sea and the Earth even though, they're also presented as beings. I doubt you believe in Abbadon/Appolyon or the Whole of Babylon either, so why make an exception for Satan?
Ah, Tartarus, now you're citing Peter's second epistle: 'For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;' (2 Peter 2:4) which is actually a shadow for: 'and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, (2 Peter 2:9b). Those two reflect each other but here's the thing. I read quite recently the appearance of the word 'Tartarus' isn't entirely accidental Peter appears to be citing a non canonical work in the inspired text. I which I could find where I read that.
As I said above I don't believe that, we're more free if the decisions we make on that journey good or bad are entirely our own, it's fairer for justice and judgement.
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 03:08:20 PM
[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]
HI Micah!
If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?
...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..
I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..
The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:
I don't think I need to add much here that I haven't already said but for clarify I feel I should mention, in case there's any misunderstanding on my part or your part and Micah doesn't. When the Bible talks about sparrows falling I'm pretty sure Jesus means their deaths and not anything do with them specifically sinning. He was saying how much God values the lives of all the things He's made rather more than we do. 'Fear not, you are worth more than many sparrows.'
Yes, I agree with that. Hell is a complicated subject.
First of all, it is a fiction that has evolved from several pagan religions. It is named with a word that has no legitimate chain of connection to the words it is used for(sheol, gehenna, tartarus). The idea of hell being ruled by Satan comes from the Greeks and Romans, whose "underworlds" were ruled by gods, Hades(grk) and Pluto(rom). Inferno was the word the Latin Vulgate translators used for(sheol, gehenna, tararus), so that is where the whole Hell of flames idea was incorporated with the "lake of fire", because "Hel" is the Norse mythic underworld and there was no fire connected to it at all. Dante's "Inferno"(1300's), along with paintings by guys like Hieronymous Bosch and Boticelli(late 1400s) had begun to popularize a concept of these torments- along with Roman Catholic enforced paganized views of hell -before the word hell was ever translated into the KJV- even before the Reformation began.
So it would be like as if a modern translation was being done and the translators decided that Todd McFarlane's Spawn was a good source material to work from :laugh:
Thus we have the Hell of Eternal Torment that ignores this tremendous body of scripture we have that insists with great clarity that God will save all and become "all in all"- and that death will be abolished.
The falling of the sparrow was just that, the falling to the ground.. (I didn't recognize the possible play on falling as to be like man's falling.)
I agree Satan is not an omnipotent being directing every one's thoughts and choices.. nor as a hyper angel but only an angel but of somewhat of a high standing (originally).. perhaps mostly because of the verse, singling him out "I saw Satan like lightning fall from heaven" and how he is also singled out in other verses.. Not a godlike one, even if scripture calls him "the 'god' of this world", but not a mere force either (imo) - I believe the machinations of the fallen angels work to greatly speed things along.. Not that it makes man innocent of evil doing and tendencies.
"The dragon" of the Book of Revelation I believe to be metaphor for Satan whom it is believed 1/3 of the angels joined his rebellion, told in Rev 12 as "stars dragged by the dragon's tail.." a vision shown to John but I think of as still allegory in part.. But having originated the revolt/falling away he became in essence leader of it.. And is why I believe the king of tyre and babylon are types of him in scripture.. Especially because of the accusation/claim of the "I will be like the Most High, I will ascend above His throne" - which I believe yes, to a degree, is included in the human psyche, our own little 'gods' until we bend the knee to Him..
from Matthew 4
"Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser)
..."And the Tempter ("peirazō" test, prove, challenge) having come to him said" ("epō" to speak, say)..
"Then doth the Devil ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser) take him to the [holy] city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple.."
"Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
..and saith to him `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'
The way this is presented.. the beginning of Jesus did this and thus.. I don't think of it as a parable any more than His baptism which preceded it..
But definitely not as the adversary as one almost on a par with Yahweh, not even remotely. So I think we are agreed there..(?)
------------------
Jude 6 - Angels who kept ("toreo" watch, guard) not their own first ("origin, original") state, but left their own ("idios" ones own) dwelling ("oiketerion" dwelling place, residence), unto the judgment, of the great day in bonds eternal ("aidios" said to be everduring(?) under darkness ("zophos" darkness) He keeps.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 27, 2016, 07:44:01 AM
Here's the thing I see CST. Jesus said, "If I cast out demons by the finger of God then the kingdom of God has come upon you".
He said, "These signs will follow those who believe" and listed, they will cast out demons. So in the context of the whole scripture, any metaphors for Satan, the adversary, the wickedness of men- do not preclude the flat statements of Jesus, or the narrative history of the gospel. My point is not that there are no metaphorical references to any of the things you mentioned. My point is that those metaphors do not trump the plain statements of our Lord, nor the record of His and the apostles actions in relationship to Satan and demons.
So, Satan and demons cannot be limited to metaphor without excising a lot of scriptures and directly devaluing the testimony of the Lord and the writers of the gospels. The sorcerer Bar- Jesus(Acts) was not metephorically blinded by the Holy Spirit at Paul's word(Acts 13). Annanias and Saphira were not metaphorically slain by the Holy Spiri(Acts t. The madman of the Gadarenes was not metaphorically delivered and made whole by the casting out of Legion. Job is not a fairy tale. Mark's gospel is not a fairy tale or an allegory, it is a record of actual events. Among those events are the parables spoken by the Lord, but Mark was not speaking in parables, he was recording actual events. Luke was not espousing hyperbole- he was recording actual events.
In Thessalonians Paul speaks of the anti-christ,
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
This power and deception does not occur in a vacuum. Satan operates through man's co-operation, and it is a union of spirit, not unlike our union with the Lord. A mutual, consensual integration of works and attitudes. The scriptures make this clear. The only way around all this is:
1) To say Jesus, Paul knew better but were speaking to primitive men in primitive terms
This does not work because Jesus and Paul turned the world upside down and did not need to, or care to, speak down to us.
2) Jesus and Paul were ignorant in relationship to what we modern educated elevated Christians understand about Satan and demons.
This does not work because Jesus is the chief cornerstone and the fountainhead of all spiritual revelation and Paul was one of the foundation stones of the kingdom of God.
2) The scriptures are largely hyperbole and mythical exaggerations made to make a point- not to be believed as history or actual events and actual words of the persons written of within them.
This does not work because if this is the case they have no authority and all debate and doctrine is nonsense and speculation based in allegorical understandings.
IMO, This is the point where biblical universalism often begins to mutate into the kind of universalism that thinks it transcends the testimony of the scriptures and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Interesting you should pick that verse to make your point about the literal usage of terms in historic narrative.
'And the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the LORD had said.' (Exodus 8:19)
Now this is from the Old Testament, when Jesus 'uses the term 'finger of God' you can imagine Him pointing at things and performing exorcisms whether He actually pointed at all. The three uses in the OT this, when the magicians of Egypt fail to summon Gnats like Moses has done suddenly concede, 'Oh, it must be God then'. The other two refer to drawing up the Ten Commandments which God obviously is held to have written with His literal finger, it's a metaphor.
Jesus, in the quote you use, was giving His response to the Pharisees when the accused Him of expelled devils by the power of the Devil in Luke (the one where the story isn't directly connected to the 'Unpardonable Sin' warning) let's see what Jesus argued immediately before that:
'And if I cast out demons by Be-el'zebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.' (Luke 11:19)
Good question, yes? By who do the Pharisees cast out demons? Our Lord suggests that the Pharisees cast out demons themselves so by who do they do it? Because it's not going to be 'Jesus', is it?
So who, by Satan, as they've just accused Jesus of doing? Given Jesus' response that doesn't seem likely:
'And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Be-el'zebul.' (Luke 11:18)
So if Jesus' argument is reasonable in this case then I suspect they won't be doing that.
So what? What power is left? Not the Devil, it seems, and certainly not God, so what? I can't think of any other supernatural agency the Pharisees could be calling on so what's left?
The only other thing I can imagine the Pharisees could be calling on then is themselves and, so far as I can tell there's only one circumstance in which they could do that: it's a racket! The Pharisees aren't expelling any 'demons' and they're not healing anyone but they're using every trick they know to trick the populace and underscore the legitimacy of their spurious sect that Jesus opposes, this of course makes perfect sense just look at another occasion the Pharisees made this accusation against Jesus:
'But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."' (Matthew 9:34) And what prompted this declaration:
'And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel."' (Matthew 9:33) Yup, I'd say that'll do it. Jesus performing the sort of healing that is beyond the Pharisees duplicitous abilities. It's a racket like the magicians of Egypt when operating a racket. And both were embarrassed when the real 'finger of God' was displayed in their midst. Jesus knows it's a racket but Jesus was always very careful about what He said, He didn't accuse the Pharisees openly of operating a racket at that level but it's implied, it seems to me, in the question.
The question mark over the nature of 'demons' is also implied when Jesus, later in the same exchange declares: '"When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."' (Luke 11:24-26)
Now I have no idea what the functional difference is between the phrase we translate as 'demon' and the one we translate as 'unclean spirit' but I strongly suspect it could be not insignificant. I do know that most of this is a symbolic phrasing the term 'house' doesn't mean house obviously and so obviously the phrase 'swept and put in order' is also less than literal. Jesus also makes it sound like the easiest thing in the world for the demon/unclean spirits to come back, go off again and then find seven evil friends and throw a party in the vacated 'house'. Why do I suspect Jesus is further imply that what the Pharisees are doing is a racket that doesn't heal anyone and in fact leaves them worse off than before?
Wow, that's taken longer than I'd hoped. maybe I'll address the rest of what you said later. Of course it's just an interpretation, it may not be the right one.
Casting out demons is done by faith in the authority of the name. Jesus said many will say on that day, "Didnt we cast out demons in your name" and He will reply, "Depart from me you lawless ones; I do not know you".
The Pharisees could cast out demons by faith just like Eli could still do the work of his priesthood even after his removal was declared prophetically through Samuel.
The finger of God is a metaphor for the authority of God, which the Pharisees and their fathers exercised in the name if YHWH. The authority of God is real, and their are many metaphors for it. Satan and demons are real, and their are metaphors for them, and for evil apart from them, and for evil in men. All of thse things are real and metaphors are used to amplify specific elements of their nature and how they operate.
Clouds without rain. Trees without fruit. Serpents. Dragons. All metaphors for existing principles and the men who walk in them in union with the adversary, who is not a metaphor. Neither are the humans for whom metaphors are used to expose elements of their nature and principles of their operation, like
"Now shall the ax be laid to the root of the trees.... Every branch that bears not fruit shall be withered and cut-off and thrown to into the fire."
The metaphorical trees to be cut down are the Pharisees and their dead religion.
But in all you wrote in the last post you seem to miss that the words were spoken by men who had seen demons cast out and were acknowledging the casting out of them. There was no questioning the event- only a debate over the source of an actual thing that all acknowledged, including Jesus, was actually happening.
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 03:08:20 PM
[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]
HI Micah!
If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?
...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..
I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..
The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:
Why was I drug into this? When did I spout this?
"HI Micah!
If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?
...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2016, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 03:08:20 PM
[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]
HI Micah!
If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?
...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..
I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..
The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:
Why was I drug into this? When did I spout this?
"HI Micah!
If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?
...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..
When you posted this rather paradoxical statement.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2016, 12:02:30 AM
Pursue or not to pursue :sigh:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 29, 2016, 05:06:31 AM
Casting out demons is done by faith in the authority of the name. Jesus said many will say on that day, "Didnt we cast out demons in your name" and He will reply, "Depart from me you lawless ones; I do not know you".
The Pharisees could cast out demons by faith just like Eli could still do the work of his priesthood even after his removal was declared prophetically through Samuel.
The finger of God is a metaphor for the authority of God, which the Pharisees and their fathers exercised in the name if YHWH. The authority of God is real, and their are many metaphors for it. Satan and demons are real, and their are metaphors for them, and for evil apart from them, and for evil in men. All of thse things are real and metaphors are used to amplify specific elements of their nature and how they operate.
Clouds without rain. Trees without fruit. Serpents. Dragons. All metaphors for existing principles and the men who walk in them in union with the adversary, who is not a metaphor. Neither are the humans for whom metaphors are used to expose elements of their nature and principles of their operation, like
"Now shall the ax be laid to the root of the trees.... Every branch that bears not fruit shall be withered and cut-off and thrown to into the fire."
The metaphorical trees to be cut down are the Pharisees and their dead religion.
But in all you wrote in the last post you seem to miss that the words were spoken by men who had seen demons cast out and were acknowledging the casting out of them. There was no questioning the event- only a debate over the source of an actual thing that all acknowledged, including Jesus, was actually happening.
Hmm, I do often wonder how much power God has given humans through faith. At my most extreme I've wondered if humans actually have the power to believe demons into existence if they have enough faith that they already do, but as I said that's when take the concept of faith moving mountains to its most literal extreme.
When I'm being more rational I struggle to believe that the Pharisees can just perform exorcisms through faith in the name of YHWH when most people's belief at the time was that only the high priest was allowed to invoke the Name of YHWH and on only one occasion. Like you say the tree metaphor was aimed strongly, though I think not exclusively at the Pharisees I explained elsewhere what I thought the relationship between faith and this metaphor was, which I don't think I've read in your translation but I'll check, in this case it will suffice to say that Jesus was performing healing by the Holy Spirit and so when they accused Him of doing so by the Devil, He was able to tell them they'd committed blasphemy against that Spirit the is surely what the also are using when they invoke the name YHWH as you suggest.
But for me I struggle to see how they can invoke the name of YHWH through faith when they don't actually live that faith out seems implausible to me, it's like they're trying to divide God, suggesting He has legitimised what they preach, even though Jesus makes clear they don't practice that, when I find it hard to believe He would. It would make God actively involved in the Pharisees deceiving Israel.
And by the same logic you could get God to legitimise a same sex marriage just by finding a clergy who believes in such a thing and has faith in the name of Jesus. I can't imagine you would accept that premise.
Who says anyone in Israel saw the demon being expelled, I may have written careless using the metaphor but they saw the event of a man who had formerly been mute start speaking and they had assigned that condition to the work of a demon. It doesn't mean they were correct in making that diagnosis, Jesus somehow healed the mute and it was miraculous. That's enough for me, why the man was mute and what Jesus changed to cure him is beyond my comprehension and I suspect it may be beyond yours.
At this point I need to ask you a question that has suddenly occurred to me about the nature of this debate which must have strong bearing on it to make sure we're on the same page. What do you think a demon actually is and where do you think they come from?
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 09:28:05 PM
The falling of the sparrow was just that, the falling to the ground.. (I didn't recognize the possible play on falling as to be like man's falling.)
I agree Satan is not an omnipotent being directing every one's thoughts and choices.. nor as a hyper angel but only an angel but of somewhat of a high standing (originally).. perhaps mostly because of the verse, singling him out "I saw Satan like lightning fall from heaven" and how he is also singled out in other verses.. Not a godlike one, even if scripture calls him "the 'god' of this world", but not a mere force either (imo) - I believe the machinations of the fallen angels work to greatly speed things along.. Not that it makes man innocent of evil doing and tendencies.
"The dragon" of the Book of Revelation I believe to be metaphor for Satan whom it is believed 1/3 of the angels joined his rebellion, told in Rev 12 as "stars dragged by the dragon's tail.." a vision shown to John but I think of as still allegory in part.. But having originated the revolt/falling away he became in essence leader of it.. And is why I believe the king of tyre and babylon are types of him in scripture.. Especially because of the accusation/claim of the "I will be like the Most High, I will ascend above His throne" - which I believe yes, to a degree, is included in the human psyche, our own little 'gods' until we bend the knee to Him..
from Matthew 4
"Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser)
..."And the Tempter ("peirazō" test, prove, challenge) having come to him said" ("epō" to speak, say)..
"Then doth the Devil ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser) take him to the [holy] city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple.."
"Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
..and saith to him `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'
The way this is presented.. the beginning of Jesus did this and thus.. I don't think of it as a parable any more than His baptism which preceded it..
But definitely not as the adversary as one almost on a par with Yahweh, not even remotely. So I think we are agreed there..(?)
------------------
Jude 6 - Angels who kept ("toreo" watch, guard) not their own first ("origin, original") state, but left their own ("idios" ones own) dwelling ("oiketerion" dwelling place, residence), unto the judgment, of the great day in bonds eternal ("aidios" said to be everduring(?) under darkness ("zophos" darkness) He keeps.
Falling to the ground in death, yes. Remember the verse is about death. The point was the sparrow are bought at minimal cost by Jews in Israel in order to be used in what have obviously become hollow sacrifices to God. Obviously these sacrifice end up with the death of the bird. I was curious if you had misunderstood because you used it to move on the talking about the thoughts and intents of God's creatures which He knows. Obviously the spparow does not intend to drop down dead on the ground.
Going from your next statement I again have ask you what you think the demons are. My point about 'hyperangels' was not to suggest that Satan might be of such a type it was that the concept of Satan suggests that humans need some sort of external prompting from the Devil to be persuaded to sin while as we understand the angels that feel need no such prompting except the reasoning in their own minds, therefore why do we need the Devil and a contingent of fallen angels and demons to lead us wrong? Aren't we perfectly capable of sinning due to our own flawed reasoning?
As I understand we only think that Satan's offence was to try to usurp God because we associate Jesus' lightning reference the the statement about the king of Babylon in Isaiah and so also ended up erroneously deciding Satan's natural name was Lucifer, which sounds unlikely when you think about it.
Other than that our data seems limited.
"Pursue or not to pursue " I made this statement simply because I was wondering if continuing was worth my time. And I really don't believe it is. The opening post "When Was Well Created?" for me, that's just me, seems to have gotten lost right around post #83.....my bad.
Post #83, me responding to you writing this:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 23, 2016, 05:59:34 PM
"satan" is not a who(proper name)....satan means adversary or opponent. Today we see that the USA a is called the great satan meaning we are considered an adversary. :Peace2:
Obviously Satan and Hell have long since developed co-extensive baggage seeing as how anyone who believes in the myth of the everlasting punishment of the wicked in there also believes Satan will be in there administering the punishment. Didn't really think that through either, did they?
I really dont want to get in a long circular debate about Satan and demons. Where they come from is speculative, beyond the fact that we know all things were created by God through Jesus. At the mount of temptation; in the gospels and the words of Jesus, as well as in the writings of John and Paul and Peter and James..... Satan is a who, and he is also an adversary and an opponent. I do believe in the "mystery of iniquty" and the principle and spirit of lawlessness and wickedness as well. I dont beleve Satan and demons are behind all evil or see demons around every corner either, but with all that said, from Genesis to Revelation the adversary is a who.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 (Jesus)
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14 (Paul)26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive [a]by him to do his will.
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:26
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Zechariah 3:1,2
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Jesus)
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
I believe "Satan" or "the adversary" and "the devil" are also used in some places as the representative word for the whole kingdom of evil, and context usually makes that pretty clear, but certainly in some of these verses(especially the first couple chapters of Job), it is clear that an individual is being referenced.
Speaking of Satan, in my survey of the KJV, I found NO connection between Satan and Hell, even the "Hell" of the KJV. I think he's only the Prince of Heck. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 30, 2016, 08:42:17 AM
Speaking of Satan, in my survey of the KJV, I found NO connection between Satan and Hell, even the "Hell" of the KJV. I think he's only the Prince of Heck. :winkgrin:
Surely you must have found a connection between Satan and the Hell that is understood to be presented as the Lake of Fire? They are, of course, commonly understood to be the same and Satan is definitely recorded as ending up there.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 30, 2016, 07:26:56 AM
I really dont want to get in a long circular debate about Satan and demons. Where they come from is speculative, beyond the fact that we know all things were created by God through Jesus. At the mount of temptation; in the gospels and the words of Jesus, as well as in the writings of John and Paul and Peter and James..... Satan is a who, and he is also an adversary and an opponent. I do believe in the "mystery of iniquty" and the principle and spirit of lawlessness and wickedness as well. I dont beleve Satan and demons are behind all evil or see demons around every corner either, but with all that said, from Genesis to Revelation the adversary is a who.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 (Jesus)
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14 (Paul)26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive [a]by him to do his will.
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:26
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Zechariah 3:1,2
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Jesus)
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
I believe "Satan" or "the adversary" and "the devil" are also used in some places as the representative word for the whole kingdom of evil, and context usually makes that pretty clear, but certainly in some of these verses(especially the first couple chapters of Job), it is clear that an individual is being referenced.
Well, I think we might know a bit more than that. In the KJV the word 'devils' is translated for two different words in the Old Testament both of which refer to false gods worshiped by the pagan nations that surround Israel generally we wouldn't give these any credence in any way. It's in the New Testament the word 'devils' appears to represents the beings we've come to understand as demons. Beings that somehow possess people and ruin their lives. The Bible contains no warnings about demons or how to avoid getting possessed by them but if you do get possessed by them you seem to be stuck. Why might that be I wonder?
In the Old Testament the things that most seem to be akin to the 'demons' of the New Testament are the 'evil spirit' that torments Saul and needs David's harp playing to placate (1 Samuel 16) and the 'lying spirit' that was in the mouth of Ahab's prophets (1 Kings 22, 2 Chronicles 18). And what to these spirits have in common? They're from God, the text specifically states they are from God. So why? God is Almighty, He can wave His hand and get the same result without involving another party why would He need to send a literal 'spirit' to do the job when He's more than capable of doing it Himself? And what happened between the Old and New Testament when the exact same sorts of beings suddenly started serving Satan, or so it seems, instead of God.
Satan is a 'who'? Perhaps. Satan is and adversary and opponent? No, not now not according to the Bible. At this site the Christians here like to quote John 12:32. 'And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.' Now I'm not entirely sure that passage has all the weight it's given but the statement is hardly debatable, Jesus will catch everyone in His immense net and haul them in. The line that precedes it, John 12:31, is quoted slightly less, 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.' Bye, bye. The prince of this world is generally taken to be Satan and Jesus just said that Satan's gone, 'cast out' as Jesus said when He was raised. Which strongly suggests He ain't going to be bothering us for awhile. So why do we need to worry about him at the moment? Was this a literal statement about the being the name Satan describes? In which case the previous statement seems pretty sound. Or is He declaring that His victory over death means that the things that symbolic being represents can no longer pose any threat to us?
What do you mean referring to those who are 'perishing' are you saying those who don't believe in the literal Satan are thus?
What does it mean Satan was a murderer from the beginning? Which beginning, his? That God made him as a murderer. Presumably not a literal murder it means he indroduced death into the world primarily, surely? Death first, murder of Abel by Cain second?
Quote from: CST on July 30, 2016, 02:54:59 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 30, 2016, 08:42:17 AM
Speaking of Satan, in my survey of the KJV, I found NO connection between Satan and Hell, even the "Hell" of the KJV. I think he's only the Prince of Heck. :winkgrin:
Surely you must have found a connection between Satan and the Hell that is understood to be presented as the Lake of Fire? They are, of course, commonly understood to be the same and Satan is definitely recorded as ending up there.
Yes, Satan gets tossed into the LoF, but I did not mention that place, as it is not Hell. I suppose there are lots of people who will insist that it is. It says right there in the KJV that Death & Hell are tossed into the LoF, but how can something be tossed into itself? You must dig under the mistranslated surface to see what is going on.
The KJV is a dubious translation as we've, all observed, although it has some great looking stuff in it too. Here actually it says Thanatos and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thanatos and Hades are the Greek gods of death and the dead and they're being used symbolically in the Revelation. Thanatos is also the Greek word for 'death' so translators tend to translate it as such. The translation of Hades seems to be 'the unseen one' but we're unsure of that and don't really know how to translate it so the KJV transalted it as 'Hell' while more modern translators just admit their ignorance and leave it as Hades.
The KJV translators didn't necessarily understand that 'Hell' was being destroyed in the Lake of Fire but simply added to it as a part of it so thus that is now where Death and Hell are found exclusively.
Quote from: CST on July 30, 2016, 04:58:58 PM
The KJV is a dubious translation as we've, all observed, although it has some great looking stuff in it too. Here actually it says Thanatos and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thanatos and Hades are the Greek gods of death and the dead and they're being used symbolically in the Revelation. Thanatos is also the Greek word for 'death' so translators tend to translate it as such. The translation of Hades seems to be 'the unseen one' but we're unsure of that and don't really know how to translate it so the KJV transalted it as 'Hell' while more modern translators just admit their ignorance and leave it as Hades.
The KJV translators didn't necessarily understand that 'Hell' was being destroyed in the Lake of Fire but simply added to it as a part of it so thus that is now where Death and Hell are found exclusively.
Thanatos and Hades are not capitalized as proper names. thanatos and hades is "death" and the "grave". Also, it is too easy to defend points with generalities like.....
"Well we know the KJV is not a great translation but it has some great stuff in it too"- without presenting any evidence. I presented a half dozen scriptures showing that the adversary is attributed personality in the scriptures, you have presented nothing scripturally, just vague references to translation issues and statements like "we know more than that".
Who is "we"?
I could present 20 more verses that show personality to the adversary, devils, evil spirits, etc, but it would make no difference.
In the meantime, no one has ever shown me any verses supporting this idea that Satn and demons are metaphors of principles operating within man. No one has ever attempted to explain away the many occurences in the gospel narrative of Jesus conversing with Satan and demons and His own references to casting them out and judging them.
:hijacked: ?
Not really
Here is where this discussion about Satan and demons ties back into the OP. :banana:
Mt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-41.htm (http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-41.htm) interlinear view
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/25-41.htm (http://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/25-41.htm) lexicon view
Into "to pyr to ainion"....the fire the ages.... or the fire ageduring.... or the fire of the world to come.
In the opening post the question is "when was Hell created", and I think the question is meant to refer to the "popular hell".
Properly hell is translated from "sheol"-"the grave"- or "the unseen" (seventy some times)
Popular Hell's only possible connections to scripture is "to pyr to aionion" (as in the Mt 25)and the lake of fire(as iin Rev19 and 20) and "basanisthesetai en pyri kai theoi enopion angelon hagion" which is "tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels/messengers and the Lamb." in Rev 14. In "en pyri kai theoi"- theoi is sulfur, or brimstone or "fire of God", which the intense fire of burning sulfur was considered to be in ancient times, hence "theoi" or theon. Andrew Jukes, in his book, "The Restitution of all Things", did a great exposition on this and it was one of the first major things that confirmed UR for me when I first ran into it in my 20's.
"On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot." Psalms 11:6
So, popular Hell is a distortion of "to pyr to aionion" and "en pyri kai theoi" and according to Jesus it was created for the devil and his angels- and apparently for those unto whom He speaks the words, "Depart from me I do not know you."
These scriptures are all speaking of the same experience in my opinion- of aionion kolassis- correction in the world to come. It is likened to fire, because our God is a consuming fire... and it takes place "in His presence". All that enters "pyri kai theoi" (sulfur fire/fire of the gods)comes out purified.
sulfur was produced from "pyrite" (and to some extent still is altho now most sulfur comes from oil and gas by-products)
Pyrite is fire rock, and by coincidence, it is also "fool's gold" because in its natural state it is sometimes mistaken for gold- but actually one of its main uses is to purify gold, because it is "brimstone"(burning rock), sulfur, and the ancients used it to create a hotter fire for smelting metals.
So the ETrs have "fools gold"- having replaced the fire of God which burns to purify because it is His glorious presence and it consumes darkness- with the fools gold of veangence and arbitrary revenge.
You appear to be reading my arguments as if I'm arguing that the whole of the Bible is a metaphor which I'm obviously not. From you previous post, which I haven't got much time to discuss, you seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed.
Of course the Bible says God made humans and describes the births and lives of many humans, it's easy to take it on trust that those humans once existed but demons as currently understood really seem to just spring up in the New Testament in Israel with any explanation and get expelled, until Jesus exclusively by the likes of the Pharisees it seems who seem to operate a system that looks akin to the Dark Age system, of selling relics, pardons and indulgences all of which tended to be spurious fakes. We use the word 'demons' to describe people's problems all the time and we're talking in our first language. The Greek texts of the Bible aren't even written in Jesus' first language how do we know we're understanding them correctly, how do we know the translation wasn't restricted by the availability of what was in Greek? How can we be sure this wasn't a metaphor. I had problems with the idea of demons when I believed that the final fate of most humans was Eternal Torment. I worried about what happened a judgement to someone who died with still possessed by a demon. Are they still possessed in the resurrection? How does the effect of that possession whether presently or formerly influence how they are judged? People should be judged according to their own actions, if their reasoning is being compromised by the fact they have a demon than that doesn't seem like they can be judged fairly.
You can say Thanatos and Hades are not capitalised as proper names and that's technically true I believe, but only because in Greek grammar proper names don't have capital letters like in English. In English translations of Revelation the words are translated 'Death' and 'Hades' with capital letters because they are clearly personified beings. I'm also not aware of any times in Greek where Hades wasn't used as a proper name either of the realm of the dead or the god of the dead. That's what the word seems to stand for. John can't be using it that way, but I strongly suspect he's using the weight of the word if not its meaning.
Sorry, when I said 'we' I meant us at Tentmaker owing to the fact that on the site are multiple published articles describing the failings of the KJV, not only the Hell heavy Old Testament but also the fact it contains words like unicorn, even though their are no unicorns to speak of. But the text also translations some other passages in ways that seem more honest and fair to the original language than many modern translations.
But you ask for 'evidence' this might take awhile but you've reference the parable of the sheep and the goats so I'll start there, even though I hardly think it's the strongest point, just a pause for thought.
A point that may well have passed a lot of readers of the Bible by, including me until I checked, is that it appears that in the four Gospels the word 'Satan' appears almost exclusively in the words of Jesus, in Mark, Luke and John it appears once in narration (there's one exception in Mark if you count the line that is probably the most dubious text in scripture) but in Matthew and in all the other Gospels the only character that speaks the name 'Satan' is Jesus. No one else says it, they all seem to use other names. Jesus uses Satan, except, in the parable of the sower and the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Why? What's the reason for the change. In parables, when he's definitely been figurative Jesus also uses the term 'the devil'. This is also true, when Jesus calls His Jewish enemies, 'of [their] father the Devil'. Obviously that's not literally true, it's a metaphor meant to demonstrate how far from God they are.
So what's the difference between when Jesus uses the word 'Devil' and when He uses the name 'Satan'? Well it seems to be that uses uses the term 'the Devil' when He's speaking in terms that are clearly meant to be figurative, no one could really take them otherwise. So what about when He uses the term Satan? He uses the term exactly as you would expect Him to use it, when He's addressing enemies, to some degree or another. This includes disciples who are having ideas He appears not to approve of, although He doesn't always direct them term at them when giving them the warning, but the consistency remains. The only exception is in Mark's Gospel because, for some reason there Mark does have Jesus use the name 'Satan' in the parable of the sower whereas in Matthew and Luke, He says 'the Devil'. In fact the title 'Devil' never appears in Mark.
I know there's not many references to angels/messengers in the Old Testament but there is some..
Thought I'd do a quick study..
Hebrews 1:6-7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers [#G32 - "messengers, angels"] of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'
"Messengers" - Young's Literal Version
Genesis 19:1
And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,
Genesis 22:11-12
And the messenger of Jehovah calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;'
and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth
Genesis 28:12
And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it;
Genesis 32:1
And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;
2 Kings 1:3
And a messenger of Jehovah hath spoken unto Elijah the Tishbite
Psalm 148:2
Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts.
-- edit - Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."
Matthew 4:6
and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God -- cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'
Matthew 4:11
Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.
Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Matthew 13:41
the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,
Matthew 13:49
so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,
Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Matthew 26:53
dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of messengers?
Luke 24:23
and not having found his body, they came, saying also to have seen an apparition of messengers, who say he is alive,
John 1:51
and he saith to him, `Verily, verily, I say to you, henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the messengers of God going up and coming down upon the Son of Man.'
John 20:11
and Mary was standing near the tomb, weeping without; as she was weeping, then, she stooped down to the tomb, and beholdeth two messengers in white, sitting,
Acts 7:53
who received the law by arrangement of messengers, and did not keep [it].'
1 Corinthians 13:1
If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
Hebrews 1:6
and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'
Hebrews 1:7
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Hebrews 1:13
And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
Hebrews 12:22
But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
2 Peter 2:4
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
Jude 1:6
messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.
Revelation 5:11
And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree; (after the split atom, a pause, aka, now)
Revelation 8:2 and I saw the seven messengers who before God have stood, and there were given to them seven trumpets (pause over)
Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'
Revelation 12:7
And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
Revelation 12:9
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven messengers, who were having the seven vials, and he spake with me, saying to me, `Come, I will shew to thee the judgment of the great whore, who is sitting upon the many waters,
==============================
Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.
Job 38:4-7 - New King James Version (NKJV)
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Well.. it's a little longer than I intended.. :laughing7:
hope to do a search on devils and demons next.. satan, devil.. Of course there's this one -
Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Quoteyou seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed
What I am suggesting is that if the narrative, which includes Jesus' acts and words regarding demons, is metaphor, then anything can be metaphor, and indeed it can all be a metaphor, because the gospels record those things as factual narrative, and Jesus and John and Paul teach about demons and the devil in ways that are definitely not metaphor. The same scriptures that teach about the Holy Spirit teach about angels, demons, etc.
However I am not asserting anything about what you believe about the Holy Spirit or God. I am just questioning and, I guess refuting, your application of scripture concerning demons, as an example of an inconsitent view of how to interpret scripture. I believe a person needs to apply the same basic principles across the board, not pick and choose what is convenient to ones preferences.
The Bible is rich with metaphors, but is not all metaphor, and we just simply disagree on how one determines what is metaphor and what isnt.
Quote from: marie glen on August 03, 2016, 01:59:15 AM
I know there's not many references to angels/messengers in the Old Testament but there is some..
Thought I'd do a quick study..
Hebrews 1:6-7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers [#G32 - "messengers, angels"] of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'
"Messengers" - Young's Literal Version
Genesis 19:1
And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,
Genesis 22:11-12
And the messenger of Jehovah calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;'
and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth
Genesis 28:12
And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it;
Genesis 32:1
And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;
2 Kings 1:3
And a messenger of Jehovah hath spoken unto Elijah the Tishbite
Psalm 148:2
Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts.
-- edit - Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."
Matthew 4:6
and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God -- cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'
Matthew 4:11
Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.
Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Matthew 13:41
the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,
Matthew 13:49
so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,
Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Matthew 26:53
dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of messengers?
Luke 24:23
and not having found his body, they came, saying also to have seen an apparition of messengers, who say he is alive,
John 1:51
and he saith to him, `Verily, verily, I say to you, henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the messengers of God going up and coming down upon the Son of Man.'
John 20:11
and Mary was standing near the tomb, weeping without; as she was weeping, then, she stooped down to the tomb, and beholdeth two messengers in white, sitting,
Acts 7:53
who received the law by arrangement of messengers, and did not keep [it].'
1 Corinthians 13:1
If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'
Hebrews 1:6
and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'
Hebrews 1:7
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Hebrews 1:13
And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
Hebrews 12:22
But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
2 Peter 2:4
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
Jude 1:6
messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.
Revelation 5:11
And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree; (after the split atom, a pause, aka, now)
Revelation 8:2 and I saw the seven messengers who before God have stood, and there were given to them seven trumpets (pause over)
Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'
Revelation 12:7
And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
Revelation 12:9
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven messengers, who were having the seven vials, and he spake with me, saying to me, `Come, I will shew to thee the judgment of the great whore, who is sitting upon the many waters,
==============================
Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.
Job 38:4-7 - New King James Version (NKJV)
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Well.. it's a little longer than I intended.. :laughing7:
hope to do a search on devils and demons next.. satan, devil.. Of course there's this one -
Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
The catch there is that messenger is a very broad term, it can be anything from a human God sends to deliver His instruction to another to an image that communicates His directives but has all the substance of the hologram of Princess Leia in Star Wars. That's part of my argument often, as soon as you translate these words to English suddenly they lose their mythical status. When they are called 'angels' they sound like they could be creatures that exist as a class of being, which is easy because that's how they're usually understood. As soon as you call them 'messengers' and they sound like that exist purely as couriers and have no independence of themselves. It's hard to see when they'd find the time to come up with the self-willed idea to rebel.
Again, as soon as you stop calling them 'angels' and start calling them messengers how you read the text changes because the word no longer has a special quality by which you would recognize beings with a special status.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 03, 2016, 07:26:19 AM
Quoteyou seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed
What I am suggesting is that if the narrative, which includes Jesus' acts and words regarding demons, is metaphor, then anything can be metaphor, and indeed it can all be a metaphor, because the gospels record those things as factual narrative, and Jesus and John and Paul teach about demons and the devil in ways that are definitely not metaphor. The same scriptures that teach about the Holy Spirit teach about angels, demons, etc.
However I am not asserting anything about what you believe about the Holy Spirit or God. I am just questioning and, I guess refuting, your application of scripture concerning demons, as an example of an inconsitent view of how to interpret scripture. I believe a person needs to apply the same basic principles across the board, not pick and choose what is convenient to ones preferences.
The Bible is rich with metaphors, but is not all metaphor, and we just simply disagree on how one determines what is metaphor and what isnt.
Yeah, but I do actually think about this. I reject the idea of Satan and demons as literal beings because the Bible is not written in any language Jesus spoke, doesn't offer any direct explanation for what they writers or speakers mean when they use these words and then doubt it given that it also defies logical. I give you and example from a passage in the Bible that I'm sure is commonly used to argue for the existence of Satan. It's Luke 10:18 this is recorded:
'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'
Jesus appears to be lends credence to the story of the fall of Satan. Before I address that you may remember I said that Jesus only uses the term 'Satan' when He is address enemies, or those who are behaving as enemies at the time, this is no exception. In context this is what happens:
'The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"
'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."' (Luke 10:17-20)
This is a reprimand, it may be a very gentle and subtle one but it's a reprimand. Jesus is telling the disciples not to rejoice at the defeat of their enemies but only at the salvation of themselves. And to support this argument He makes an allusion we imagine they were expected to understand to the defeat of His own enemy. Who fell to Earth, and created the mess that it's in now. So is the traditional understanding. Notice also that Jesus doesn't use the word 'demon' back to he disciples here, He says spirits here, is it a coincidence or is He being careful?
Here's the thing we are now, in the twenty first century, well beyond Babel. We have learned that there is no mountain we can climb or rocket we can build that will take us to Heaven because Heaven is not 'up there' in the sense it was understood to be my the people Jesus was address. As far as can be ascertained, Jesus is referring to something that the disciples understood from their Jewish teachings but doesn't appear to be mentioned in any of the Jewish works the Church holds as authoritative. Do we really take a story which we don't really know as true, based on a world view we know to be untrue because Jesus made reference to it while reprimanding His disciples for improper thinking? Heaven isn't literally 'up there' for Satan to fall 'down here'. I have no doubt the statement points to spiritual truth. But taking it literally seems pretty well impossible.
I forgot this one I was going to include under the Old Testament references -
Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."
t's likely you/all know the context..
That one doesn't contain the word 'messenger'. And I'm not sure how much of the context of that is determined by Christian presupposition bias. Not sure how it acts as evidence for literal supernatural beings (other than God) either.
Quote from: CST on August 03, 2016, 08:43:04 PM
That one doesn't contain the word 'messenger'. And I'm not sure how much of the context of that is determined by Christian presupposition bias. Not sure how it acts as evidence for literal supernatural beings (other than God) either.
you do not believe there are angels? and the context of what is happening should (imo) suggest these tho appearing as men, are not human men.. :)
"devil" references in the Young's Literal:Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil, - Mt 4:1, YLV -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"
what tempted Jesus?
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Rev 12:9 -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"
Matthew 4:8 -- Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Matthew 4:11 -- Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.
Matthew 13:39 -- and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Matthew 25:41 -- Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Luke 4:2 ---forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered,
Luke 4:3 -- and the Devil said to him, `If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.'
Luke 4:5 -- And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
Luke 4:6 -- and the Devil said to him, `To thee I will give all this authority, and their glory, because to me it hath been delivered, and to whomsoever I will, I do give it;
Luke 4:13 -- And having ended all temptation, the Devil departed from him till a convenient season.
Luke 8:12 -- and those beside the way are those hearing, then cometh the Devil, and taketh up the word from their heart, lest having believed, they may be saved.
John 6:70 -- Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you -- the twelve? and of you -- one is a devil.
John 8:44 -- `Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.
John 13:2 -- And supper being come, the devil already having put [it] into the heart of Judas of Simon, Iscariot, that he may deliver him up,
Acts 10:38 -- Jesus who [is] from Nazareth -- how God did anoint him with the Holy Spirit and power; who went through, doing good, and healing all those oppressed by the devil, because God was with him;
Acts 13:10 -- said, `O full of all guile, and all profligacy, son of a devil, enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease perverting the right ways of the Lord?
Ephesians 4:27 -- neither give place to the devil;
Ephesians 6:11 -- put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil,
1 Timothy 3:6 -- not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;
1 Timothy 3:7 -- and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil.
2 Timothy 2:26 -- and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.
Hebrews 2:14 -- Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --
James 4:7 -- be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;
1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,
CST, what is your reading on these verses? as to who or what..? thanks :smile:
Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
P.S. - Speaking for myself, I don't view demons as supernatural beings, but as "spirits" (rebel, etc) able to influence people.. interfering in their affairs, especially national or global.. work all sides to every issue, etc. The adversary Paul said is the "god of this world"...
Leading the world astray.. The world is covered with falsehood.. more so, I believe, than if man were let alone.. imo, speeding things up.. to make this unavoidable lesson not last half of forever.. (my own dumb phrase that:)
The King James includes these verses:
#H8163 - śâ‛ı̂yr śâ‛ir
saw-eer', saw-eer'
From H8175; shaggy; as noun, a he goat; by analogy a faun
1. hairy n m
2. he-goat, buck
a. as sacrificial animal
b. satyr, may refer to a demon possessed goat like the swine of Gadara
Leviticus 17:7 -- And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
Deuteronomy 32:17 -- They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
2 Chronicles 11:15 -- And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
Psalm 106:37 -- Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
"devils" - #H7700 - http://studybible.info/strongs/H7700 from #7736 - http://studybible.info/strongs/H7736
:Chinscratch:
1 Corinthians 10:20 -- Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
20 [no,] but that the things that the nations sacrifice -- they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not wish you to come into the fellowship of the demons.
Bible search demons - from the Young's Literal Translation
Matthew 8:31 -- and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'
Mark 1:34 -- and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.
1 Timothy 4:1 -- And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
James 2:19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!
Revelation 16:14 -- for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty;
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 4:24 -- and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them.
Matthew 7:22 -- Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
Matthew 8:16 -- And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill,
Matthew 8:28 -- And he having come to the other side, to the region of the Gergesenes, there met him two demoniacs, coming forth out of the tombs, very fierce, so that no one was able to pass over by that way,
Matthew 8:31 -- and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'
Matthew 8:33 and those feeding did flee, and, having gone to the city, they declared all, and the matter of the demoniacs.
Matthew 9:32 -- And as they are coming forth, lo, they brought to him a man dumb, a demoniac,
Matthew 9:33 -- and the demon having been cast out, the dumb spake, and the multitude did wonder, saying that `It was never so seen in Israel:'
Matthew 9:34 -- but the Pharisees said, `By the ruler of the demons he doth cast out the demons.'
Matthew 10:8 -- infirm ones be healing, lepers be cleansing, dead be raising, demons be casting out -- freely ye did receive, freely give.
Matthew 11:18 -- `For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon;
Matthew 12:22 -- Then was brought to him a demoniac, blind and dumb, and he healed him, so that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Matthew 12:24 -- but the Pharisees having heard, said, `This one doth not cast out demons, except by Beelzeboul, ruler of the demons.'
I
Matthew 12:27 -- `And if I, by Beelzeboul, do cast out the demons, your sons -- by whom do they cast out? because of this they -- they shall be your judges.
Matthew 12:28 -- `But if I, by the Spirit of God, do cast out the demons, then come already unto you did the reign of God.
Matthew 15:22 -- and lo, a woman, a Canaanitess, from those borders having come forth, did call to him, saying, `Deal kindly with me, Sir -- Son of David; my daughter is miserably demonized.'
Matthew 17:18 -- and Jesus rebuked him, and the demon went out of him, and the lad was healed from that hour.
Mark 1:32 -- And evening having come, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all who were ill, and who were demoniacs,
Mark 1:34 -- and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.
Mark 1:39 -- And he was preaching in their synagogues, in all Galilee, and is casting out the demons,
Mark 3:15 -- and to have power to heal the sicknesses, and to cast out the demons.
Mark 3:22 -- and the scribes who [are] from Jerusalem having come down, said -- `He hath Beelzeboul,' and -- `By the ruler of the demons he doth cast out the demons.'
Mark 5:12 -- and all the demons did call upon him, saying, `Send us to the swine, that into them we may enter;'
Mark 5:15 -- and they come unto Jesus, and see the demoniac, sitting, and clothed, and right-minded -- him having had the legion -- and they were afraid;
etc... many are repetitive in the gospels - snip
Luke 8:2 -- and certain women, who were healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary who is called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone forth,
Luke 8:29 -- For he commanded the unclean spirit to come forth from the man, for many times it had caught him, and he was being bound with chains and fetters -- guarded, and breaking asunder the bonds he was driven by the demons to the deserts.
Luke 11:18 -- and if also the Adversary against himself was divided, how shall his kingdom be made to stand? for ye say, by Beelzeboul is my casting forth the demons.
Luke 11:20 -- but if by the finger of God I cast forth the demons, then come unawares upon you did the reign of God.
John 8:49 -- Jesus answered, `I have not a demon, but I honour my Father, and ye dishonour me;
1 Corinthians 10:21 -- Ye are not able the cup of the Lord to drink, and the cup of demons; ye are not able of the table of the Lord to partake, and of the table of demons;
1 Timothy 4:1 -- And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
James 2:19 -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!
James 3:15 -- this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like,
Revelation 9:20 -- and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,
Revelation 16:14 -- for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty;
Revelation 18:2 -- and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,
wow, look at this one -
Isaiah 34:14
Amplified Bible
The creatures of the desert will encounter jackals And the hairy goat will call to its kind; Indeed, Lilith (night demon) will settle there And find herself a place of rest.
myth/legend of (some) men says lilith was the first vampire :faint: (no I am not making this claim nor even thinking it :laughing7: )
H3917 --
lı̂ylı̂yth
lee-leeth'
From H3915; a night spectre
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions
לילית
1. "Lilith", name of a female goddess known as a night demon who haunts the desolate places of Edom
a. might be a nocturnal animal that inhabits desolate places
(same verse) - Isaiah 34:14 -- King James Version (KJV)
14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
In context:
9 Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl...
-- -- why metaphor man's tendency to err.. when it's already plainly spoken about.. why would there be all the metaphor..? I heard even some in churches believe the resurrection was metaphor :mshock:
Quote from: CST on August 03, 2016, 08:02:45 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 03, 2016, 07:26:19 AM
Quoteyou seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed
What I am suggesting is that if the narrative, which includes Jesus' acts and words regarding demons, is metaphor, then anything can be metaphor, and indeed it can all be a metaphor, because the gospels record those things as factual narrative, and Jesus and John and Paul teach about demons and the devil in ways that are definitely not metaphor. The same scriptures that teach about the Holy Spirit teach about angels, demons, etc.
However I am not asserting anything about what you believe about the Holy Spirit or God. I am just questioning and, I guess refuting, your application of scripture concerning demons, as an example of an inconsitent view of how to interpret scripture. I believe a person needs to apply the same basic principles across the board, not pick and choose what is convenient to ones preferences.
The Bible is rich with metaphors, but is not all metaphor, and we just simply disagree on how one determines what is metaphor and what isnt.
Yeah, but I do actually think about this. I reject the idea of Satan and demons as literal beings because the Bible is not written in any language Jesus spoke, doesn't offer any direct explanation for what they writers or speakers mean when they use these words and then doubt it given that it also defies logical. I give you and example from a passage in the Bible that I'm sure is commonly used to argue for the existence of Satan. It's Luke 10:18 this is recorded:
'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'
Jesus appears to be lends credence to the story of the fall of Satan. Before I address that you may remember I said that Jesus only uses the term 'Satan' when He is address enemies, or those who are behaving as enemies at the time, this is no exception. In context this is what happens:
'The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"
'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."' (Luke 10:17-20)
This is a reprimand, it may be a very gentle and subtle one but it's a reprimand. Jesus is telling the disciples not to rejoice at the defeat of their enemies but only at the salvation of themselves. And to support this argument He makes an allusion we imagine they were expected to understand to the defeat of His own enemy. Who fell to Earth, and created the mess that it's in now. So is the traditional understanding. Notice also that Jesus doesn't use the word 'demon' back to he disciples here, He says spirits here, is it a coincidence or is He being careful?
Here's the thing we are now, in the twenty first century, well beyond Babel. We have learned that there is no mountain we can climb or rocket we can build that will take us to Heaven because Heaven is not 'up there' in the sense it was understood to be my the people Jesus was address. As far as can be ascertained, Jesus is referring to something that the disciples understood from their Jewish teachings but doesn't appear to be mentioned in any of the Jewish works the Church holds as authoritative. Do we really take a story which we don't really know as true, based on a world view we know to be untrue because Jesus made reference to it while reprimanding His disciples for improper thinking? Heaven isn't literally 'up there' for Satan to fall 'down here'. I have no doubt the statement points to spiritual truth. But taking it literally seems pretty well impossible.
You are saying "do we take the story which we really as true..." But we do know it is true. On this site we accept that the whole cannon of scripture IS TRUE, when properly translated. There is sufficient source material available to affirm the scriptures and to discuss translation issues, but WE DO NOT ALLOW THE ISNSPIRATION OF THE SCRIPTURE AS A TOPIC OF DEBATE, on this site. There are other sites where discussing the inspiration and dependability of the scriptures is appropriate. This is not such a site. Participation in the discussions on this site are based upon the authority and the validity of the scriptures as the word of God. We hold that the Bible, as a whole, contains the truth of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. The narratives in it are factual history. The metaphors in it are revelations- pictures of spiritual reality. If you want to debate the validity of the scriptures you will have to do so somewhere else.
Surely, in the interests of fairness that should be taken as true when properly translated and properly understood what if the word demon simply doesn't mean what we think it means?
I am a linguistic idealist, I would love it if the grammar of languages was so perfect that if the correct words and punctuation are used in the correct places it would be impossible for anyone to misconstrue or misunderstand anything anyone else said. I would love that and often try to find out how to get as close as possible to learning how to do that. But I know there's ultimately no way that can be done, they'll always be things that are translated as well as they can be and they can still be misunderstood and you might still struggle to find Biblical backing to show what they understand is 'wrong'.
Remember language is not just affected by the words and semantics the writer or speaker uses that mental attitude of the writer, reader or listener. Hebrew is a colourful language awash with symbolism, metaphor and hyperbole anyway. English isn't we assume that if Jesus isn't speaking the literal truth to His listeners He must either be mistaken or lying. Because that's how it is in English, their isn't a cultural onus on speaking your mind scientifically and literally. That isn't true in the Hebrew world. The argument your making just doesn't stand up to scrutiny given the source material.
Quote from: marie glen on August 03, 2016, 09:01:58 PM
CST, what is your reading on these verses? as to who or what..? thanks :smile:
Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
I'm glad you ask. It suggests your open to argument and are willing to provide material to work with. But you've provided a lot so I'll have to return to this when I have more time to give it my attention.
Thought I'd do a shorter summary -
Acts 27:23-24 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
23 for there stood by me this night a messenger of God -- whose I am, and whom I serve --
24 saying, Be not afraid Paul; before Caesar it behoveth thee to stand; and, lo, God hath granted to thee all those sailing with thee;
Matthew 8:31 -- and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'
Mark 1:34 -- and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.
1 Timothy 4:1 -- And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
James 2:19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!
Revelation 16:14 -- for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty;
Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
---------------------
Hebrews 1:6-7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers [#G32 - "messengers, angels"] of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'
"Messengers" - Young's Literal Version
Genesis 19:1
And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,
Genesis 22:11-12
And the messenger of Jehovah calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;'
and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth
Genesis 28:12
And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it;
Genesis 32:1
And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;
2 Kings 1:3
And a messenger of Jehovah hath spoken unto Elijah the Tishbite
Psalm 148:2
Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts.
-- edit - Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."
p.s - well it's a little shorter anyway.. main ones (lmo:) :laughing7:
my thoughts on this are..
Survival of the Strongest - He Knows All
Ps 80 - Asaph wrote a song about his nation, Israel. Her roots went deep, verdant like an emerald she spread upon the land.. But now the hedges were down, oppressors were oppressing. Thieves were stealing. "Why O Lord?" goes the psalm.
It's an example of life itself. There's two ways. Two paths. Love God, or don't love God. But life, you see, is God. Or more accurately, God is life. And His character is flawless. ("God is love." 1 Jn 4:8)
If we love Him, we will be a fountain of peace, joy and love. The peace and the joy depend upon the love. He is perfect. To not remain in Him is to develop flaw. There's two directions, toward God or away from God.
Society/life away from God will produce, eventually, every sort of abuse and oppression.
What better way to prove that, than to let it run its natural course. And what better way to speed along what could be a very long and laborious process, than to have invisible conscious forces - who in their moving away from God, have developed the hard veneer of being against God - working diligently over the ages to manipulate mankind's affairs..?
:Peace2: :gsmile:
That's an immensely beautiful sentiment there are I'm full of much truth. I'm not sure your logic about the last part is entirely thought through though.
Not sure that you summery is as helpful as you expected it to be either I seem to be left with a random, non-connected set of quotes my brain struugles to deal with. so I'll go back to one of the above sets.
Quote from: marie glen on August 03, 2016, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: CST on August 03, 2016, 08:43:04 PM
That one doesn't contain the word 'messenger'. And I'm not sure how much of the context of that is determined by Christian presupposition bias. Not sure how it acts as evidence for literal supernatural beings (other than God) either.
you do not believe there are angels? and the context of what is happening should (imo) suggest these tho appearing as men, are not human men.. :)
"devil" references in the Young's Literal:
Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil, - Mt 4:1, YLV -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"
what tempted Jesus?
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Rev 12:9 -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"
Matthew 4:8 -- Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Matthew 4:11 -- Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.
Matthew 13:39 -- and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
Matthew 25:41 -- Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
Luke 4:2 ---forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered,
Luke 4:3 -- and the Devil said to him, `If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.'
Luke 4:5 -- And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
Luke 4:6 -- and the Devil said to him, `To thee I will give all this authority, and their glory, because to me it hath been delivered, and to whomsoever I will, I do give it;
Luke 4:13 -- And having ended all temptation, the Devil departed from him till a convenient season.
Luke 8:12 -- and those beside the way are those hearing, then cometh the Devil, and taketh up the word from their heart, lest having believed, they may be saved.
John 6:70 -- Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you -- the twelve? and of you -- one is a devil.
John 8:44 -- `Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.
John 13:2 -- And supper being come, the devil already having put [it] into the heart of Judas of Simon, Iscariot, that he may deliver him up,
Acts 10:38 -- Jesus who [is] from Nazareth -- how God did anoint him with the Holy Spirit and power; who went through, doing good, and healing all those oppressed by the devil, because God was with him;
Acts 13:10 -- said, `O full of all guile, and all profligacy, son of a devil, enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease perverting the right ways of the Lord?
Ephesians 4:27 -- neither give place to the devil;
Ephesians 6:11 -- put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil,
1 Timothy 3:6 -- not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;
1 Timothy 3:7 -- and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil.
2 Timothy 2:26 -- and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.
Hebrews 2:14 -- Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --
James 4:7 -- be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;
1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,
So first your references to the Devil. Let's start with John 6:70. Jesus here is speaking of Judas He doesn't mean the Devil as is usually understood so translators translate it 'a devil'. But as far as can tell there's no article definite or indefinite in the Greek. Jesus could just as easily have called Judas 'the Devil. One way or another then, Jesus is not using the word as we usually understand it. He cannot literally mean that Judas is entirely and completely the Devil. More on his later hopefully. I'm going to pass over the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. I have many thoughts on that but there are already many threads for those. I won't discuss them here.
John 8:44 where Jesus is Jesus speaking metaphorically as I mentioned above. Jesus isn't saying Satan has literally sired the people His words are directed to. He's telling them their ways and spirit are deceitful and duplicitous and much more of the character of the Devil than of God or indeed Abraham who they claim as their father as if they don't have any sort of obligations to that ancestry. A nonsensical proposition. Matthew 13:39 and Luke 8:12 are Jesus explaining parables. The world isn't exactly like this. He's speaking metaphorically to explain something to teach a larger lesson. A real Devil is not automatically required.
Acts 10:38 speaks of oppression by the Devil. That presumably is taken to mean possessed by demons but it may not mean that, there are many ways people could be oppressed by 'the Devil' without the Devil needing to be an actual being. In Acts 13:10, like John 6:70, the text is translated as 'a devil' in Young's the KJV says 'the Devil' again it's difficult to take literally as mentioned above. Either the text doesn't refer to the Devil or it doesn't literally mean the being we know of as the Devil sired the person under discussion.
The rest of your quotes come from epistles. Paul's usage all seems the same. Warnings to the reader against being deceived, diabolos as you say is 'slanderer' or, more technically, 'calumniator'. That would be one who distorts the truth. Given how the Devil is understood is the context of the Bible and how we read the Word of God the point seems pretty self explanatory as does the warning with it. Resist those who would distort the truth. The Devil doesn't have to literally exist for the point to be made.
Hebrews seems a bit unique, the Devil has the power of death. Usually I was of the impression it was God who had that power seeing as it was Him who decided who lived and who dies. I'm not sure how to read that it feals a little out of place. It certainly doesn't encourage me to see the Devil as a literal being.
The epistle from James doesn't require me believing in a literal Devil either. But believing in one makes the passage more difficult that it already is. Yes, if you resist the Devil he might well flee from you. But in my experience he tends to keep coming back trying to wear you down, it's exhausting and is a battle you can end up fighting your whole life never winning because it never ends. At least if I take a literal Devil out the equation the only actual enemy is my own improper desires.
I don't need to mention the statement in the epistle of Peter, I don't think anyone would expect anyone to take that literally. The only question is how much meat is on the metaphor.
The hardest quote you invoke is John 13:2 which does appear to suggest that the actually Devil does enter Judas and somehow take him over to get him to betray Jesus. I'll address this and hopefully the temptation of Christ which is probably the strongest New Testament evidence for the existence of the Devil, next time.
Well, obviously I disagree with all that..
1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up
Quote from: CST on August 04, 2016, 08:02:37 PM
I don't need to mention the statement in the epistle of Peter, I don't think anyone would expect anyone to take that literally. The only question is how much meat is on the metaphor.
Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may devour.. destroy.. and make use of..
Yes, I believe that's literal.
:Peace2:
P.S. -examine the sentence.. the whatever.. walks about.. seeking..
If it were metaphor, what is it speaking of?
Unless the Devil is an actual lion, it's a metaphor. Since lions are rather physically limited being beings of flesh that don't speak Human the Devil, were he an actual lion, would be physically limited.
I'm sure you are also aware that 'well, obviously I disagree with all of that' is no sort of argument and I doubt you disagree on the meaning of 'calumniator' because that's just a fact, a very important fact I hope to come to later. But I would consider it a valid response given how trying to respond to every reference you gave rather limited my own arguments. Hopefully, my arguments from the temptation of Christ references will be stronger.
So the story of the temptation of Christ appears in two Gospels Matthew and Luke. Mark reports that it happened but does not give any account of it. As mentioned above Mark is the only Gospel writer to use the term Satan, in narrative here, Matthew and Luke both reserve the name Satan for the words of Jesus in their Gospels and never put it in narrative. They write 'the Devil' in narrative, Mark never uses the phrase 'the Devil' (diabolos).
So Matthew first:
'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
'But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
'Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
'Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
'Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
'Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.' (Matt. 4:1-11)
Now Luke:
'And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'"' (Luke 4:1-4)
So far so identical. Luke doesn't use the Hebrew idiom 'forty days and forty night' he writes in naturally. And he doesn't write the second part of the quote from Deuteronomy, which seems a little lapse but the story is the same. Jesus fasts and gets hungry. And the the Devil appears.
'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"' (Luke 4:5-8)
Now it starts the accounts start to diverge somewhat. What was the third temptation for Matthew is the second for Luke. According to Luke the Devil claims to have had all the kingdoms delivered to him, a lie Matthew does not reproduce, and while Matthew describes the glory of the kingdoms Luke says, more ambiguously, they are shown 'in a moment in time' a very ambiguous statement but some I suspect that only Jesus could have seen.
'And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,'and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"' (Luke 4:9-12)
Now it's diverged it can hardly go back, the second temptation in Matthew must now be the third in Luke. I'll explain my thoughts behind this transposition later, hopefully. Right now I'm just describing the differences in the Gospel accounts. Subtle, but present. Technically, because both Gospel writers describe the temptations as linear events one of them must be wrong. Technically that's true. Of course no one really cares because it doesn't seem to make much difference to the story which order the temptations occurred only that Jesus was able to resist them and, perhaps, how. The recording of the events here though seem the most identical of all three temptations recorded with only the most subtle of differences.
'And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.' (Luke 4:13)
Luke's ending to the story is almost in opposition to Matthew's while Luke has a somewhat ominous ending where the Devil is not finally defeated and expects to return later, the angels that come in Matthew seen to underscore Christ's victory over His enemy. I'm short on time now so before I discuss how I understand this in relation to what Satan means I'll give you sometime to read this and see if you can come up with any of your own ideas about the divergences that occur and why they do.
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
Unless the Devil is an actual lion, it's a metaphor. Since lions are rather physically limited being beings of flesh that don't speak Human the Devil, were he an actual lion, would be physically limited.
Actually, it is saying.. the enemy, like a lion, is prowling looking for someone to devour - whether we take it to mean the enemy is prowling or the lion is prowling, it's saying, the enemy like a lion is..
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
I'm sure you are also aware that 'well, obviously I disagree with all of that' is no sort of argument
I prefer to think in terms of conversation.. :gsmile:
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
So the story of the temptation of Christ appears in two Gospels Matthew and Luke. Mark reports that it happened but does not give any account of it. As mentioned above Mark is the only Gospel writer to use the term Satan, in narrative here, Matthew and Luke both reserve the name Satan for the words of Jesus in their Gospels and never put it in narrative. They write 'the Devil' in narrative, Mark never uses the phrase 'the Devil' (diabolos).
So Matthew first:
'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
'But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
'Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
'Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
'Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
'Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.' (Matt. 4:1-11)
Now Luke:
'And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'"' (Luke 4:1-4)
So far so identical. Luke doesn't use the Hebrew idiom 'forty days and forty night' he writes in naturally. And he doesn't write the second part of the quote from Deuteronomy, which seems a little lapse but the story is the same. Jesus fasts and gets hungry. And the the Devil appears.
'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"' (Luke 4:5-8)
Now it starts the accounts start to diverge somewhat. What was the third temptation for Matthew is the second for Luke. According to Luke the Devil claims to have had all the kingdoms delivered to him, a lie Matthew does not reproduce, and while Matthew describes the glory of the kingdoms Luke says, more ambiguously, they are shown 'in a moment in time' a very ambiguous statement but some I suspect that only Jesus could have seen.
'And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,'and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"' (Luke 4:9-12)
Now it's diverged it can hardly go back, the second temptation in Matthew must now be the third in Luke. I'll explain my thoughts behind this transposition later, hopefully. Right now I'm just describing the differences in the Gospel accounts. Subtle, but present. Technically, because both Gospel writers describe the temptations as linear events one of them must be wrong. Technically that's true. Of course no one really cares because
Eye witness accounts and testimonies always differ in some details, indeed when they don't authorities are very likely suspicious..
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
it doesn't seem to make much difference to the story which order the temptations occurred only that Jesus was able to resist them and, perhaps, how. The recording of the events here though seem the most identical of all three temptations recorded with only the most subtle of differences.
'And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.' (Luke 4:13)
Luke's ending to the story is almost in opposition to Matthew's while Luke has a somewhat ominous ending where the Devil is not finally defeated and expects to return later, the angels that come in Matthew seen to underscore Christ's victory over His enemy. I'm short on time now so before I discuss how I understand this in relation to what Satan means I'll give you sometime to read this and see if you can come up with any of your own ideas about the divergences that occur and why they do.
Oh. Been there, done that :laughing7: ..as we know, these testimonies were written many years later, even more reason for memories and details to differ..
Quote from: marie glen on August 05, 2016, 08:08:12 PM
I prefer to think in terms of conversation.. :gsmile:
Thank you marie, as you obviously are aware, that's the MO of TM discussion forum. Conversation, discussion..not argument or debate.
CST, this isn't a "I'm going to struggle with you til the cows come home" set-up. We prefer to generally state a belief, show why, discuss it a bit, then if someone sees it differently, shake hands and move on. So at some point in a discussion saying "I disagree" and moving on is perfectly acceptable here. Needless contention and striving is discouraged, and eventually likely moderated. Thanks.
Quote from: marie glen on August 04, 2016, 11:59:17 PM
1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up
That verse implies that there are those who the devil may
NOT swallow up.
Thank you jabcat! :hiya:
CST,
What I'm learning from this is a tool! ..so to speak.. and reinforcement that not all our temptations and bad thoughts proceed from the enemy, but our own imperfect and flawed self (not yet perfected, all the promises are by faith) when a person has a temptation, or a bad thought, instead of only "rebuking the devil" and "resisting the devil and he will flee from you" we can apply the blood of Jesus upon it, for temptations and bad thoughts are sins.. and that's what the blood is for! ....different 'washings' for different things.. the blood of Jesus for sins.. the prayer of thanksgiving for our foods, etc, that there be no harmful thing (effect?) and the submitting to His Spirit the things we seek to do for Him.. ..our studies, etc.. (If we only "resist" and "rebuke" said bad thought, threat.., temptation, will return..
:Peace2: :dsunny:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 06, 2016, 06:45:11 AM
Quote from: marie glen on August 04, 2016, 11:59:17 PM
1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up
That verse implies that there are those who the devil may NOT swallow up.
Amen, Laz! (And that's a
good thing! :smile: ) ..this verse, I actually like best in the King James.. "seeking to devour.." (reminds me of "breathing out threatenings")
to which i :icon_jokercolor: like to quote:
"Jesus is Lord!"
"God is love!"
"His kingdom never ends!"
Quote from: marie glen on August 05, 2016, 08:08:12 PM
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
Unless the Devil is an actual lion, it's a metaphor. Since lions are rather physically limited being beings of flesh that don't speak Human the Devil, were he an actual lion, would be physically limited.
Actually, it is saying.. the enemy, like a lion, is prowling looking for someone to devour - whether we take it to mean the enemy is prowling or the lion is prowling, it's saying, the enemy like a lion is..
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
I'm sure you are also aware that 'well, obviously I disagree with all of that' is no sort of argument
I prefer to think in terms of conversation.. :gsmile:
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
So the story of the temptation of Christ appears in two Gospels Matthew and Luke. Mark reports that it happened but does not give any account of it. As mentioned above Mark is the only Gospel writer to use the term Satan, in narrative here, Matthew and Luke both reserve the name Satan for the words of Jesus in their Gospels and never put it in narrative. They write 'the Devil' in narrative, Mark never uses the phrase 'the Devil' (diabolos).
So Matthew first:
'Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
'But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
'Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"
'Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
'Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
'Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.' (Matt. 4:1-11)
Now Luke:
'And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone.'"' (Luke 4:1-4)
So far so identical. Luke doesn't use the Hebrew idiom 'forty days and forty night' he writes in naturally. And he doesn't write the second part of the quote from Deuteronomy, which seems a little lapse but the story is the same. Jesus fasts and gets hungry. And the the Devil appears.
'And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours."
'And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"' (Luke 4:5-8)
Now it starts the accounts start to diverge somewhat. What was the third temptation for Matthew is the second for Luke. According to Luke the Devil claims to have had all the kingdoms delivered to him, a lie Matthew does not reproduce, and while Matthew describes the glory of the kingdoms Luke says, more ambiguously, they are shown 'in a moment in time' a very ambiguous statement but some I suspect that only Jesus could have seen.
'And he took him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,'and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
'And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"' (Luke 4:9-12)
Now it's diverged it can hardly go back, the second temptation in Matthew must now be the third in Luke. I'll explain my thoughts behind this transposition later, hopefully. Right now I'm just describing the differences in the Gospel accounts. Subtle, but present. Technically, because both Gospel writers describe the temptations as linear events one of them must be wrong. Technically that's true. Of course no one really cares because
Eye witness accounts and testimonies always differ in some details, indeed when they don't authorities are very likely suspicious..
Quote from: CST on August 05, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
it doesn't seem to make much difference to the story which order the temptations occurred only that Jesus was able to resist them and, perhaps, how. The recording of the events here though seem the most identical of all three temptations recorded with only the most subtle of differences.
'And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.' (Luke 4:13)
Luke's ending to the story is almost in opposition to Matthew's while Luke has a somewhat ominous ending where the Devil is not finally defeated and expects to return later, the angels that come in Matthew seen to underscore Christ's victory over His enemy. I'm short on time now so before I discuss how I understand this in relation to what Satan means I'll give you sometime to read this and see if you can come up with any of your own ideas about the divergences that occur and why they do.
Oh. Been there, done that :laughing7: ..as we know, these testimonies were written many years later, even more reason for memories and details to differ..
It says 'as a roaring lion' which is either a simile where 'as' stands for 'like' or else it is suggesting that the Devil has actually taken the form of a roaring lion, which I don't think anyone believes. Of course, the lion has to stop roaring while it's seeking or it warn it's pray that it's coming.
Oh, sorry. Would you prefer I say that it was blunt dismissive... and rude. 'Well, obviously, I disagree with all that' is a response that gives so little credence to what I said as to summarize all of it a the ravings of an ignorant blabbermouth.
Authorities can be as suspicious as they like it doesn't make the source false. But that wasn't my point, my point is that any argument that the Bible is faultless in its report of historical events and situation is called into question when one of the presents the correct history in a way that must be in part incorrect.
I haven't seen where you've been there and done that yet but as you say you have I going to go recourse to an observation from a different part of the Bible instead. It's the Greek word 'aletheia'.
This word appears in the Greek text of the New Testament 110 ten times. The main weapon in the arsenal of apologetics for defending the belief in demons is that the Bible says so and the Bible is inerrant and is, unless we can be sure otherwise speaks and tells literal history and it speaks of demons so literal demons must exist. Fine it's a good defence; I can see no reason to try and weaken the authority of the Bible. So how does the word 'aletheia' fit? Well, that is the shorthand people often use to make this apology, that is the major NT word for 'truth'. It appears in the NT 110 times, in the KJV 107 times as 'truth' plus a further three times translated as 'true', 'verity' and 'truly' all essentially similar.
But it appears in the Gospel according to John more frequently than any other book in the Bible. Twenty-Five times in all those times are as follows:
1. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and
truth. (1:14)
2. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and
truth came by Jesus Christ. (1:17)
3. But he that doeth
truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (3:21)
4. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in
truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (4:23)
5. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in
truth. (4:24)
6.Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the
truth. (5:33)
7/8. And ye shall know the
truth, and the
truth shall make you free. (8:32)
9. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the
truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (8:40)
10/11. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the
truth, because there is no
truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (8:44)
12. And because I tell you the
truth, ye believe me not. (8:45)
13. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the
truth, why do ye not believe me? (8:46)
14. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (14:6)
15. Even the Spirit of
truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (14:17)
16. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of
truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (15:26)
17. Nevertheless I tell you the
truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (16:7)
18/19. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of
truth, is come, he will guide you into all
truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (16:13)
20/21. Sanctify them through thy
truth: thy word is
truth. (17:17)
22. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the
truth. (17:19)
23/24. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the
truth. Every one that is of the
truth heareth my voice. (18:37)
That's twenty-four. Twenty-four of the twenty-five I said there were. Read them carefully then read the last which follows. Reference twenty-five here below:
25. Pilate saith unto him, What is
truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. (18:38)
And that's it, the last time that word 'truth' (aletheia) appears in the Gospel of John, where it appears more frequently that anywhere else in the New Testament. Fascinating isn't it? I'll repeat it, 'What-Is-Truth?' Do you know the answer, John's been spoon feeding it to you all the while but he's stopped short of spelling it out because an answer isn't directly forthcoming. Christ claims to be the truth Himself, but Christ is a man, and also God, a living being we don't usually think of the truth like that the truth is a concept, it's not alive, is it? Not flexible not to be reasoned with but simply accepted. What do we do with Jesus' claim to be some sort of living truth?
I used to think of truth the way a lot of people presenting the sort of apologetics being presented in this discussion only believing in absolute truth. That is to say in total opposition to what is false without flexibility. What the Bible says must therefore be true and cannot in anyway be less than literally absolutely true. It's the confusion of not understanding the difference between fact and truth. Then I discovered there was such a thing as relative truth. I have one example I always use for this.
Imagine that I say, 'frogs are green.' This is true I can prove it by producing a green frog thus showing its truth. But what if I say 'all frogs are green?' Well that's not true, a frog of any other colour can be produced to disprove it. Such is the difference between the first statement, a claim for relative truth: there are green frogs, and the second statement a claim for absolute truth: there are only green frogs. The first is acceptable as true in given parameters the second excludes all such parameters and must be false if it is not at all true. Relative and absolute truth. But are there examples of relative truth in the Bible? Well, yes there are?
In Isaiah 38:1 it is written:
'In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."'
"This is what the LORD says..." hear that? Isaiah is invoking the divine name YHWH it seems and telling Hezekiah he's going to die and not recover, God has spoken apparently. But what happens next?
'Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, "Remember, LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
'Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah: "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.' (Isaiah 38:2-5)
What, wait, you can't do that! You said, you just said...
Of course, God can and indeed did do that but anyone who reads the first statement must know it contradicts the second statement the second statement makes what God said untrue yet He still said it and He wasn't lying. The solution, relative truth, it was truth according to the situation God spoke to when He said it but Hezekiah's response changed the situation even though if would no doubt have remained the same if God hadn't spoken and Hezekiah would have died. So the result is that the Bible has a paradox in it where the future is changed due to a character being given knowledge of it. This is relative truth. Are there other examples of relative truth in the Bible? Yes, there's one very famous one where Jesus reveals in response to a very important question from the disciples:
'Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)
There, relative to man, impossible, to God, utterly possible. Relative absolute truth which overturns pretty much any apologetic going because that would literally suggest that Jesus can talk about demons truthfully while no demons exist, with God all things are possible.
What is truth? Do you really know the answer, do I? I know that if you don't you can't really claim to understand anything the Bible says, and the certainly can't put it above Jesus. Jesus is truth not the Bible.
:smile: "been there, done that" - I merely meant I figured I happened to answer your question before you asked it..
You quoted Jn 17:17 yourself "sanctify them" (us) "in thy truth, Thy word is truth"
We know John also wrote "in the beginning was the word and the word was with God.." referring to Jesus, the light which came into the world.. Into which all things were created and are being gathered into.
~ "This is the decree, thou art My Son" ps 2.
But there's also verses about rightly dividing the word and abiding in the word.. If every man is to simply glean the truth from the Spirit of Jesus alone we will have, well, something resembling YouTube, no offense to YouTube.. But some pretty wild and crazy ideas floating around.. tons and tons, all different. I do believe God's Word the bible is the measure and guideline of truth.
Which truth, I believe is the "rod of iron" Jesus will rule with, it being unbreakable. Which this life of learning good from evil, I believe is teaching us. Cannot be broken any more than gravity. (Yes one can build a rocket ship, but it uses gravity doesn't cancel it. And of course "with God all things are possible" but it's my belief He reigns and builds using law.. Natural law - including the wages of sin is death. Which I tend to think all of His natural laws and truth are not relative but unbreakable. We only break ourselves upon it, as the saying goes.
Also however, important to read all pertaining verses to an issue, not separate a few out. As so many things have two poles to them, putting, I believe, the ultimate truth somewhere in the middle.. So to speak.
To the issue at hand.. In my readings this morning was the account of Jesus casting demons out of the man who lived in the tombs of Gadarene.. If this account, which is quite detailed, is metaphor (myth?) how does anyone discern what is and what isn't? What did Jesus do and didn't really do? Did he raise the widow's son? Lazarus? It's a - imo - a very slippery slope and leads to all sorts of confusion and the contradicting of God's word and accounts..
That's just my opinion. I'm not angry over it or anything.
Only truth will remain standing in the 'end' - imo - I can't help but be enthusiastic for truth, since I believe that's the whole ball of wax "hath God really said..?" "The whole world lieth in" to my mind, untruth. And is pretty much the whole problem, at root, and what is being taught via this life/life as we presently know it.
Especially for UR, if it were, in someone's witness to be supported by men's words, thoughts and ideas only, not a fraction as successful as when supported by God's Word. And also not so easily dismissed or ridiculed by the rest of the Bible folks.. The more God's Word we back it up with the more credibility and success in the here and now.. Wander from the word and it will wilt.. Imo :smile:
I'm locking this thread for 24 hours, then when re-opened request it get back to the OP.
Quote from: CST on August 06, 2016, 07:26:41 PM
Oh, sorry. Would you prefer I say that it was blunt dismissive... and rude. 'Well, obviously, I disagree with all that' is a response that gives so little credence to what I said as to summarize all of it a the ravings of an ignorant blabbermouth.
Jesus is truth not the Bible.
The default at TM is that the scriptures, accurately translated and Spirit-revealed are trustworthy and not to be dismissed, i.e., truth.
This isn't a place to argue -
especially over non-essentials, just to try and prove who's right, or who's insulting who, etc. As mentioned a couple of posts back, "I disagree" is a perfectly good response, and not to be taken personally, as an insult. It's a way to express one's view without continuing what may be a fruitless struggle.
If there are any questions or response to this moderation post, please do not do so here. Instead, PM jabcat and eaglesway together for any further discussion of this. Otherwise, please post in accordance with defined forum expectations. Thank you.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/
Absolutely agree. All we know of Jesus comes from two sources. Our experience of fellowship with Him and the scriptures of the Bible.
Anyone who sets up a paradigm where one is in opposition to the other is immature and confused.... even tho they may be well intentioned, it is simply true that the Holy Spirit points to Jesus through the scriptures and reveals who He is in a way that should totally co-ordinate with our experience.
However, for the Word to be "rightly divided"- we , as readers and hearers must also be rightly be divided.
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Wisdom justifies her adherents.
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work....