When Was Hell Created?

[CST]

Another interesting verse - Rev 12:9 refers to "the great dragon, serpent of old, called the devil and Satan/adversary, who deceives the whole world.. and his angels.."

Again if you are using that to show that the Devil exists I have to ask if you also believe that Thanatos and Hades exist? In the other thread you wrote 'And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?' Satan causes huge problems for that reasoning.

Not if one believes angels too were given rationality with an offshoot of it being the ability to make choices.. Since it's written some angels "left their first place" (position)... And isn't that part of the problem with choice before God's law (love. purity) is deeply engraved upon every heart and mind?

When i read in Revelation chapter 12 by using the interlinear Greek New Testament - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Revelation%2012:9 - "the dragon who is called slanderer and adversary who leads astray, deceives, causes to wander, the complete, whole, entire, inhabited-world" I can't think of it as metaphor for a part of mankind's psyche, mostly because the fallen nature in man is plainly gone into elsewhere in the scripture. I usually figure if something is plainly spoken, why then veil it in metaphor?

..that's my thinking anyway! :gsmile:

"Hades" before legend, i believe simply meant unseen.. and thanatos before legend, or the actual word, means merely death.. "Tartarus" I believe is metaphor for darkness, even darkness of a very dark nature :faint: .. but man will build his myths and legends.. I believe the angels which sinned are locked into their darkness, not able to reverse their course, now being corrupt and are thus locked into judgment..

I do think the slanderer and adversary influences all psyche's.. engineered that way by our heavenly Father so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson all at once, together (all in heaven and earth).. kind of speeding things up that way?

You're trying to cite the Epistle of Jude there:

'And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;' (Jude. 1:6)

which continues:

'just as Sodom and Gomor'rah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.' (Jude 1:7)

Click! I'm not quite sure how comparable the angels actually are to Sodom and Gomorrah here but apparently Jude is trying.

Do you need to invoke some sort hyper angles to explain the fall of the angels themselves or do you believe that angels conceived their rebellious thoughts independently? Because man didn't and this is the start of the problem. If you believe in a literal Satan who, unlike his followers has no yet been bound in those chains but allowed to roam three throughout the world than the fall of man is not comparable to the fall of angels. Eve never conceived a rebellious though herself neither did Adam but it was put into her head by the serpent and she in turn passed it on to Adam. Which would suggest that if God had just kept the serpent out of Eden man would have been incapable of sinning, we certainly can't know otherwise.

As it is we don't know if having sinned once man now is capable of devising independent acts of rebellion or will still only rebel when Satan puts into his head to do so. This is a problem because it undermines justice at the judgement. If people are sinning because Satan is putting into their head to do so as soon as he goes into the lake of Fire it's job done. There's no point judging anyone because it can't be done fairly. Putting Satan out the picture will stop them sinning but will also mean the no longer know who they are. You can't punish people for listening to Satan when you've put Satan away. It won't be corrective because the removal of the one making them sin has already solved the problem. As it is with Satan in the equation I have no way of knowing my own thoughts, no one does. If I have a rebellious thought regardless of whether I follow it or not, is it my thought from my dark character or is it something Satan put into my head? How can I know? How can any of us know?

Thanatos does mean 'death', but it is also the name of the Greek God of death and is personified in the book of Revelation, that personification doesn't make you think it's a real being either any more than you thing Hades, Greek God of the Dead who's name, yes, may mean 'unseen' but I understand we're less sure about that. He apparently has a hat that could make him invisible and got cross if you used his name. Apparently, he was a Greek Voldemort. You don't believe in hades, you're on record in not believing in the Beasts of the sea and the Earth even though, they're also presented as beings. I doubt you believe in Abbadon/Appolyon or the Whole of Babylon either, so why make an exception for Satan?

Ah, Tartarus, now you're citing Peter's second epistle: 'For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;' (2 Peter 2:4) which is actually a shadow for: 'and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, (2 Peter 2:9b). Those two reflect each other but here's the thing. I read quite recently the appearance of the word 'Tartarus' isn't entirely accidental Peter appears to be citing a non canonical work in the inspired text. I which I could find where I read that.

As I said above I don't believe that, we're more free if the decisions we make on that journey good or bad are entirely our own, it's fairer for justice and judgement.

[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]

HI Micah!

If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?

...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..

I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..

The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:

I don't think I need to add much here that I haven't already said but for clarify I feel I should mention, in case there's any misunderstanding on my part or your part and Micah doesn't. When the Bible talks about sparrows falling I'm pretty sure Jesus means their deaths and not anything do with them specifically sinning. He was saying how much God values the lives of all the things He's made rather more than we do. 'Fear not, you are worth more than many sparrows.'

[eaglesway]

Yes, I agree with that. Hell is a complicated subject.

First of all, it is a fiction that has evolved from several pagan religions. It is named with a word that has no legitimate chain of connection to the words it is used for(sheol, gehenna, tartarus). The idea of hell being ruled by Satan comes from the Greeks and Romans, whose "underworlds" were ruled by gods, Hades(grk) and Pluto(rom). Inferno was the word the Latin Vulgate translators used for(sheol, gehenna, tararus), so that is where the whole Hell of flames idea was incorporated with the "lake of fire", because "Hel" is the Norse mythic underworld and there was no fire connected to it at all. Dante's "Inferno"(1300's), along with paintings by guys like Hieronymous Bosch and Boticelli(late 1400s) had begun to popularize a concept of these torments- along with Roman Catholic enforced paganized views of hell -before the word hell was ever translated into the KJV- even before the Reformation began.

So it would be like as if a modern translation was being done and the translators decided that Todd McFarlane's Spawn was a good source material to work from  :laugh:

Thus we have the Hell of Eternal Torment that ignores this tremendous body of scripture we have that insists with great clarity that God will save all and become "all in all"- and that death will be abolished.

[marie glen]

The falling of the sparrow was just that, the falling to the ground.. (I didn't recognize the possible play on falling as to be like man's falling.)

I agree Satan is not an omnipotent being directing every one's thoughts and choices.. nor as a hyper angel but only an angel but of somewhat of a high standing (originally).. perhaps mostly because of the verse, singling him out "I saw Satan like lightning fall from heaven" and how he is also singled out in other verses.. Not a godlike one, even if scripture calls him "the 'god' of this world", but not a mere force either (imo) - I believe the machinations of the fallen angels work to greatly speed things along.. Not that it makes man innocent of evil doing and tendencies.

"The dragon" of the Book of Revelation I believe to be metaphor for Satan whom it is believed 1/3 of the angels joined his rebellion, told in Rev 12 as "stars dragged by the dragon's tail.." a vision shown to John but I think of as still allegory in part.. But having originated the revolt/falling away he became in essence leader of it.. And is why I believe the king of tyre and babylon are types of him in scripture.. Especially because of the accusation/claim of the "I will be like the Most High, I will ascend above His throne" - which I believe yes, to a degree, is included in the human psyche, our own little 'gods' until we bend the knee to Him..

from Matthew 4

"Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser)

..."And the Tempter ("peirazō" test, prove, challenge) having come to him said" ("epō" to speak, say)..

"Then doth the Devil ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser) take him to the [holy] city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple.."

"Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
..and saith to him `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'

The way this is presented.. the beginning of Jesus did this and thus.. I don't think of it as a parable any more than His baptism which preceded it..

But definitely not as the adversary as one almost on a par with Yahweh, not even remotely. So I think we are agreed there..(?)

------------------

Jude 6 - Angels who kept ("toreo" watch, guard) not their own first ("origin, original") state, but left their own ("idios" ones own) dwelling ("oiketerion" dwelling place, residence), unto the judgment, of the great day in bonds eternal ("aidios" said to be everduring(?) under darkness ("zophos" darkness) He keeps.

[CST]

Here's the thing I see CST. Jesus said, "If I cast out demons by the finger of God then the kingdom of God has come upon you".

He said, "These signs will follow those who believe" and listed, they will cast out demons. So in the context of the whole scripture, any metaphors for Satan, the adversary, the wickedness of men- do not preclude the flat statements of Jesus, or the narrative history of the gospel. My point is not that there are no metaphorical references to any of the things you mentioned. My point is that those metaphors do not trump the plain statements of our Lord, nor the record of His and the apostles actions in relationship to Satan and demons.

So, Satan and demons cannot be limited to metaphor without excising a lot of scriptures and directly devaluing the testimony of the Lord and the writers of the gospels. The sorcerer Bar- Jesus(Acts) was not metephorically blinded by the Holy Spirit at Paul's word(Acts 13). Annanias and Saphira were not metaphorically slain by the Holy Spiri(Acts t. The madman of the Gadarenes was not metaphorically delivered and made whole by the casting out of Legion. Job is not a fairy tale. Mark's gospel is not a fairy tale or an allegory, it is a record of actual events. Among those events are the parables spoken by the Lord, but Mark was not speaking in parables, he was recording actual events. Luke was not espousing hyperbole- he was recording actual events.

In Thessalonians Paul speaks of the anti-christ,

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

This power and deception does not occur in a vacuum. Satan operates through man's co-operation, and it is a union of spirit, not unlike our union with the Lord. A mutual, consensual integration of works and attitudes. The scriptures make this clear. The only way around all this is:

1) To say Jesus, Paul knew better but were speaking to primitive men in primitive terms

This does not work because Jesus and Paul turned the world upside down and did not need to, or care to, speak down to us.

2) Jesus and Paul were ignorant in relationship to what we modern educated elevated Christians understand about Satan and demons.

This does not work because Jesus is the chief cornerstone and the fountainhead of all spiritual revelation and Paul was one of the foundation stones of the kingdom of God.

2) The scriptures are largely hyperbole and mythical exaggerations made to make a point- not to be believed as history or actual events and actual words of the persons written of within them.

This does not work because if this is the case they have no authority and all debate and doctrine is nonsense and speculation based in allegorical understandings.

IMO, This is the point where biblical universalism often begins to mutate into the kind of universalism that thinks it transcends the testimony of the scriptures and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Interesting you should pick that verse to make your point about the literal usage of terms in historic narrative.

'And the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them; as the LORD had said.' (Exodus 8:19)

Now this is from the Old Testament, when Jesus 'uses the term 'finger of God' you can imagine Him pointing at things and performing exorcisms whether He actually pointed at all. The three uses in the OT this, when the magicians of Egypt fail to summon Gnats like Moses has done suddenly concede, 'Oh, it must be God then'. The other two refer to drawing up the Ten Commandments which God obviously is held to have written with His literal finger, it's a metaphor.

Jesus, in the quote you use, was giving His response to the Pharisees when the accused Him of expelled devils by the power of the Devil in Luke (the one where the story isn't directly connected to the 'Unpardonable Sin' warning) let's see what Jesus argued immediately before that:

'And if I cast out demons by Be-el'zebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.' (Luke 11:19)

Good question, yes? By who do the Pharisees cast out demons? Our Lord suggests that the Pharisees cast out demons themselves so by who do they do it? Because it's not going to be 'Jesus', is it?

So who, by Satan, as they've just accused Jesus of doing? Given Jesus' response that doesn't seem likely:

'And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Be-el'zebul.' (Luke 11:18)

So if Jesus' argument is reasonable in this case then I suspect they won't be doing that.

So what? What power is left? Not the Devil, it seems, and certainly not God, so what? I can't think of any other supernatural agency the Pharisees could be calling on so what's left?

The only other thing I can imagine the Pharisees could be calling on then is themselves and, so far as I can tell there's only one circumstance in which they could do that: it's a racket!  The Pharisees aren't expelling any 'demons' and they're not healing anyone but they're using every trick they know to trick the populace and underscore the legitimacy of their spurious sect that Jesus opposes, this of course makes perfect sense just look at another occasion the Pharisees made this accusation against Jesus:

'But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."' (Matthew 9:34) And what prompted this declaration:

'And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel."' (Matthew 9:33) Yup, I'd say that'll do it. Jesus performing the sort of healing that is beyond the Pharisees duplicitous abilities. It's a racket like the magicians of Egypt when operating a racket. And both were embarrassed when the real 'finger of God' was displayed in their midst. Jesus knows it's a racket but Jesus was always very careful about what He said, He didn't accuse the Pharisees openly of operating a racket at that level but it's implied, it seems to me, in the question.

The question mark over the nature of 'demons' is also implied when Jesus, later in the same exchange declares: '"When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."' (Luke 11:24-26)

Now I have no idea what the functional difference is between the phrase we translate as 'demon' and the one we translate as 'unclean spirit' but I strongly suspect it could be not insignificant. I do know that most of this is a symbolic phrasing the term 'house' doesn't mean house obviously and so obviously the phrase 'swept and put in order' is also less than literal. Jesus also makes it sound like the easiest thing in the world for the demon/unclean spirits to come back, go off again and then find seven evil friends and throw a party in the vacated 'house'. Why do I suspect Jesus is further imply that what the Pharisees are doing is a racket that doesn't heal anyone and in fact leaves them worse off than before?

Wow, that's taken longer than I'd hoped. maybe I'll address the rest of what you said later. Of course it's just an interpretation, it may not be the right one.

[eaglesway]

Casting out demons is done by faith in the authority of the name. Jesus said many will say on that day, "Didnt we cast out demons in your name" and He will reply, "Depart from me you lawless ones; I do not know you".

The Pharisees could cast out demons by faith just like Eli could still do the work of his priesthood even after his removal was declared prophetically through Samuel.

The finger of God is a metaphor for the authority of God, which the Pharisees and their fathers exercised in the name if YHWH. The authority of God is real, and their are many metaphors for it. Satan and demons are real, and their are metaphors for them, and for evil apart from them, and for evil in men. All of thse things are real and metaphors are used to amplify specific elements of their nature and how they operate.

Clouds without rain. Trees without fruit. Serpents. Dragons. All metaphors for existing principles and the men who walk in them in union with the adversary, who is not a metaphor. Neither are the humans for whom metaphors are used to expose elements of their nature and principles of their operation, like

"Now shall the ax be laid to the root of the trees.... Every branch that bears not fruit shall be withered and cut-off and thrown to into the fire."

The metaphorical trees to be cut down are the Pharisees and their dead religion.

But in all you wrote in the last post you seem to miss that the words were spoken by men who had seen demons cast out and were acknowledging the casting out of them. There was no questioning the event- only a debate over the source of an actual thing that all acknowledged, including Jesus, was actually happening.

[micah7:9]

[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]

HI Micah!

If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?

...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..

I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..

The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:

Why was I drug into this? When did I spout this?

"HI Micah!

If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?

...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..

[CST]

[Amen Eaglesway! ...I believe it is when folks don't understand something that they go beyond scripture and, or do strange twistings of scripture, to a lot of babble(?) or folks do it to somehow show themselves to be wise/special with hidden gnosis/knowledge the rest of us don't have?]

HI Micah!

If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?

...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..

I'm not on my computer right now but I'll have to look up the interlinear on the verse which says "angels which left their first place" or "estate" (state?) as the KJ puts it..

The question here, to me, would be, do angels have thinking faculties, and if not are they like large nanobots.. Well, I guess nano means small :laughing7: but essentially they are forces completely controlled by God, doing only His will because they can do no other? Do they have consciousness? Self awareness? How do you believe man was able to fall/wander out of God's perfect will? Is it an idea we are made of an inferior substance?
:Peace2: :smile:

Why was I drug into this? When did I spout this?

"HI Micah!

If I remember right you find it hard to believe our Heavenly Father would or could create faulty angels or that is angels that could fall or rebel? As though Yahweh made some sort of mistake?

...but why would it not be foreknown by Him? Even used? Does not a sparrow fall but He knows.. How much more the thoughts and intents of His creatures..

When you posted this rather paradoxical statement.

Pursue or not to pursue  :sigh:

Casting out demons is done by faith in the authority of the name. Jesus said many will say on that day, "Didnt we cast out demons in your name" and He will reply, "Depart from me you lawless ones; I do not know you".

The Pharisees could cast out demons by faith just like Eli could still do the work of his priesthood even after his removal was declared prophetically through Samuel.

The finger of God is a metaphor for the authority of God, which the Pharisees and their fathers exercised in the name if YHWH. The authority of God is real, and their are many metaphors for it. Satan and demons are real, and their are metaphors for them, and for evil apart from them, and for evil in men. All of thse things are real and metaphors are used to amplify specific elements of their nature and how they operate.

Clouds without rain. Trees without fruit. Serpents. Dragons. All metaphors for existing principles and the men who walk in them in union with the adversary, who is not a metaphor. Neither are the humans for whom metaphors are used to expose elements of their nature and principles of their operation, like

"Now shall the ax be laid to the root of the trees.... Every branch that bears not fruit shall be withered and cut-off and thrown to into the fire."

The metaphorical trees to be cut down are the Pharisees and their dead religion.

But in all you wrote in the last post you seem to miss that the words were spoken by men who had seen demons cast out and were acknowledging the casting out of them. There was no questioning the event- only a debate over the source of an actual thing that all acknowledged, including Jesus, was actually happening.

Hmm, I do often wonder how much power God has given humans through faith. At my most extreme I've wondered if humans actually have the power to believe demons into existence if they have enough faith that they already do, but as I said that's when take the concept of faith moving mountains to its most literal extreme.

When I'm being more rational I struggle to believe that the Pharisees can just perform exorcisms through faith in the name of YHWH when most people's belief at the time was that only the high priest was allowed to invoke the Name of YHWH and on only one occasion. Like you say the tree metaphor was aimed strongly, though I think not exclusively at the Pharisees I explained elsewhere what I thought the relationship between faith and this metaphor was, which I don't think I've read in your translation but I'll check, in this case it will suffice to say that Jesus was performing healing by the Holy Spirit and so when they accused Him of doing so by the Devil, He was able to tell them they'd committed blasphemy against that Spirit the is surely what the also are using when they invoke the name YHWH as you suggest.

But for me I struggle to see how they can invoke the name of YHWH through faith when they don't actually live that faith out seems implausible to me, it's like they're trying to divide God, suggesting He has legitimised what they preach, even though Jesus makes clear they don't practice that, when I find it hard to believe He would. It would make God actively involved in the Pharisees deceiving Israel.

And by the same logic you could get God to legitimise a same sex marriage just by finding a clergy who believes in such a thing and has faith in the name of Jesus. I can't imagine you would accept that premise.

Who says anyone in Israel saw the demon being expelled, I may have written careless using the metaphor but they saw the event of a man who had formerly been mute start speaking and they had assigned that condition to the work of a demon. It doesn't mean they were correct in making that diagnosis, Jesus somehow healed the mute and it was miraculous. That's enough for me, why the man was mute and what Jesus changed to cure him is beyond my comprehension and I suspect it may be beyond yours.

At this point I need to ask you a question that has suddenly occurred to me about the nature of this debate which must have strong bearing on it to make sure we're on the same page. What do you think a demon actually is and where do you think they come from?

[CST]

The falling of the sparrow was just that, the falling to the ground.. (I didn't recognize the possible play on falling as to be like man's falling.)

I agree Satan is not an omnipotent being directing every one's thoughts and choices.. nor as a hyper angel but only an angel but of somewhat of a high standing (originally).. perhaps mostly because of the verse, singling him out "I saw Satan like lightning fall from heaven" and how he is also singled out in other verses.. Not a godlike one, even if scripture calls him "the 'god' of this world", but not a mere force either (imo) - I believe the machinations of the fallen angels work to greatly speed things along.. Not that it makes man innocent of evil doing and tendencies.

"The dragon" of the Book of Revelation I believe to be metaphor for Satan whom it is believed 1/3 of the angels joined his rebellion, told in Rev 12 as "stars dragged by the dragon's tail.." a vision shown to John but I think of as still allegory in part.. But having originated the revolt/falling away he became in essence leader of it.. And is why I believe the king of tyre and babylon are types of him in scripture.. Especially because of the accusation/claim of the "I will be like the Most High, I will ascend above His throne" - which I believe yes, to a degree, is included in the human psyche, our own little 'gods' until we bend the knee to Him..

from Matthew 4

"Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser)

..."And the Tempter ("peirazō" test, prove, challenge) having come to him said" ("epō" to speak, say)..

"Then doth the Devil ("diabolos" slanderer, accuser) take him to the [holy] city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple.."

"Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
..and saith to him `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'

The way this is presented.. the beginning of Jesus did this and thus.. I don't think of it as a parable any more than His baptism which preceded it..

But definitely not as the adversary as one almost on a par with Yahweh, not even remotely. So I think we are agreed there..(?)

------------------

Jude 6 - Angels who kept ("toreo" watch, guard) not their own first ("origin, original") state, but left their own ("idios" ones own) dwelling ("oiketerion" dwelling place, residence), unto the judgment, of the great day in bonds eternal ("aidios" said to be everduring(?) under darkness ("zophos" darkness) He keeps.

Falling to the ground in death, yes. Remember the verse is about death. The point was the sparrow are bought at minimal cost by Jews in Israel in order to be used in what have obviously become hollow sacrifices to God. Obviously these sacrifice end up with the death of the bird. I was curious if you had misunderstood because you used it to move on the talking about the thoughts and intents of God's creatures which He knows. Obviously the spparow does not intend to drop down dead on the ground.

Going from your next statement I again have ask you what you think the demons are. My point about 'hyperangels' was not to suggest that Satan might be of such a type it was that the concept of Satan suggests that humans need some sort of external prompting from the Devil to be persuaded to sin while as we understand the angels that feel need no such prompting except the reasoning in their own minds, therefore why do we need the Devil and a contingent of fallen angels and demons to lead us wrong? Aren't we perfectly capable of sinning due to our own flawed reasoning?

As I understand we only think that Satan's offence was to try to usurp God because we associate Jesus' lightning reference the the statement about the king of Babylon in Isaiah and so also ended up erroneously deciding Satan's natural name was Lucifer, which sounds unlikely when you think about it.

Other than that our data seems limited.

[micah7:9]

"Pursue or not to pursue   " I made this statement simply because I was wondering if continuing was worth my time. And I really don't believe it is. The opening post "When Was Well Created?" for me, that's just me, seems to have gotten lost right around post #83.....my bad.

[CST]

Post #83, me responding to you writing this:

"satan" is not a who(proper name)....satan means adversary or opponent. Today we see that the USA a is called the great satan meaning we are considered an adversary. :Peace2:

Obviously Satan and Hell have long since developed co-extensive baggage seeing as how anyone who believes in the myth of the everlasting punishment of the wicked in there also believes Satan will be in there administering the punishment. Didn't really think that through either, did they?

[eaglesway]

I really dont want to get in a long circular debate about Satan and demons. Where they come from is speculative, beyond the fact that we know  all things were created by God through Jesus. At the mount of temptation; in the gospels and the words of Jesus, as well as in the writings of John and Paul and Peter and James..... Satan is a who, and he is also an adversary and an opponent. I do believe in the "mystery of iniquty" and the principle and spirit of lawlessness and wickedness as well. I dont beleve Satan and demons are behind all evil or see demons around every corner either, but with all that said, from Genesis to Revelation the adversary is a who.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 (Jesus)

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14 (Paul)26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive [a]by him to do his will.

26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:26

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Zechariah 3:1,2

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Jesus)

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

I believe "Satan" or "the adversary" and "the devil" are also used in some places as the representative word for the whole kingdom of evil, and context usually makes that pretty clear, but certainly in some of these verses(especially the first couple chapters of Job), it is clear that an individual is being referenced.

[Lazarus Short]

Speaking of Satan, in my survey of the KJV, I found NO connection between Satan and Hell, even the "Hell" of the KJV.  I think he's only the Prince of Heck.  :winkgrin:

[CST]

Speaking of Satan, in my survey of the KJV, I found NO connection between Satan and Hell, even the "Hell" of the KJV.  I think he's only the Prince of Heck.  :winkgrin:

Surely you must have found a connection between Satan and the Hell that is understood to be presented as the Lake of Fire? They are, of course, commonly understood to be the same and Satan is definitely recorded as ending up there.

I really dont want to get in a long circular debate about Satan and demons. Where they come from is speculative, beyond the fact that we know  all things were created by God through Jesus. At the mount of temptation; in the gospels and the words of Jesus, as well as in the writings of John and Paul and Peter and James..... Satan is a who, and he is also an adversary and an opponent. I do believe in the "mystery of iniquty" and the principle and spirit of lawlessness and wickedness as well. I dont beleve Satan and demons are behind all evil or see demons around every corner either, but with all that said, from Genesis to Revelation the adversary is a who.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 (Jesus)

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14 (Paul)26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive [a]by him to do his will.

26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:26

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Zechariah 3:1,2

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Jesus)

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

I believe "Satan" or "the adversary" and "the devil" are also used in some places as the representative word for the whole kingdom of evil, and context usually makes that pretty clear, but certainly in some of these verses(especially the first couple chapters of Job), it is clear that an individual is being referenced.

Well, I think we might know a bit more than that. In the KJV the word 'devils' is translated for two different words in the Old Testament both of which refer to false gods worshiped by the pagan nations that surround Israel generally we wouldn't give these any credence in any way. It's in the New Testament the word 'devils' appears to represents the beings we've come to understand as demons. Beings that somehow possess people and ruin their lives. The Bible contains no warnings about demons or how to avoid getting possessed by them but if you do get possessed by them you seem to be stuck. Why might that be I wonder?

In the Old Testament the things that most seem to be akin to the 'demons' of the New Testament are the 'evil spirit' that torments Saul and needs David's harp playing to placate (1 Samuel 16) and the 'lying spirit' that was in the mouth of Ahab's prophets (1 Kings 22, 2 Chronicles 18). And what to these spirits have in common? They're from God, the text specifically states they are from God. So why? God is Almighty, He can wave His hand and get the same result without involving another party why would He need to send a literal 'spirit' to do the job when He's more than capable of doing it Himself? And what happened between the Old and New Testament when the exact same sorts of beings suddenly started serving Satan, or so it seems, instead of God.

Satan is a 'who'? Perhaps. Satan is and adversary and opponent? No, not now not according to the Bible. At this site the Christians here like to quote John 12:32. 'And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.' Now I'm not entirely sure that passage has all the weight it's given but the statement is hardly debatable, Jesus will catch everyone in His immense net and haul them in. The line that precedes it, John 12:31, is quoted slightly less, 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.' Bye, bye. The prince of this world is generally taken to be Satan and Jesus just said that Satan's gone, 'cast out' as Jesus said when He was raised. Which strongly suggests He ain't going to be bothering us for awhile. So why do we need to worry about him at the moment? Was this a literal statement about the being the name Satan describes? In which case the previous statement seems pretty sound. Or is He declaring that His victory over death means that the things that symbolic being represents can no longer pose any threat to us?

What do you mean referring to those who are 'perishing' are you saying those who don't believe in the literal Satan are thus?

What does it mean Satan was a murderer from the beginning? Which beginning, his? That God made him as a murderer. Presumably not a literal murder it means he indroduced death into the world primarily, surely? Death first, murder of Abel by Cain second?

[Lazarus Short]

Speaking of Satan, in my survey of the KJV, I found NO connection between Satan and Hell, even the "Hell" of the KJV.  I think he's only the Prince of Heck.  :winkgrin:

Surely you must have found a connection between Satan and the Hell that is understood to be presented as the Lake of Fire? They are, of course, commonly understood to be the same and Satan is definitely recorded as ending up there.

Yes, Satan gets tossed into the LoF, but I did not mention that place, as it is not Hell.  I suppose there are lots of people who will insist that it is.  It says right there in the KJV that Death & Hell are tossed into the LoF, but how can something be tossed into itself?  You must dig under the mistranslated surface to see what is going on.

[CST]

The KJV is a dubious translation as we've, all observed, although it has some great looking stuff in it too. Here actually it says Thanatos and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thanatos and Hades are the Greek gods of death and the dead and they're being used symbolically in the Revelation. Thanatos is also the Greek word for 'death' so translators tend to translate it as such. The translation of Hades seems to be 'the unseen one' but we're unsure of that and don't really know how to translate it so the KJV transalted it as 'Hell' while more modern translators just admit their ignorance and leave it as Hades.

The KJV translators didn't necessarily understand that 'Hell' was being destroyed in the Lake of Fire but simply added to it as a part of it so thus that is now where Death and Hell are found exclusively.

[eaglesway]

The KJV is a dubious translation as we've, all observed, although it has some great looking stuff in it too. Here actually it says Thanatos and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Thanatos and Hades are the Greek gods of death and the dead and they're being used symbolically in the Revelation. Thanatos is also the Greek word for 'death' so translators tend to translate it as such. The translation of Hades seems to be 'the unseen one' but we're unsure of that and don't really know how to translate it so the KJV transalted it as 'Hell' while more modern translators just admit their ignorance and leave it as Hades.

The KJV translators didn't necessarily understand that 'Hell' was being destroyed in the Lake of Fire but simply added to it as a part of it so thus that is now where Death and Hell are found exclusively.

Thanatos and Hades are not capitalized as proper names. thanatos and hades is "death" and the "grave". Also, it is too easy to defend points with generalities like.....

"Well we know the KJV is not a great translation but it has some great stuff in it too"- without presenting any evidence. I presented a half dozen scriptures showing that the adversary is attributed personality in the scriptures, you have presented nothing scripturally, just vague references to translation issues and statements like "we know more than that".

Who is "we"?

I could present 20 more verses that show personality to the adversary, devils, evil spirits, etc, but it would make no difference.

In the meantime, no one has ever shown me any verses supporting this idea that Satn and demons are metaphors of principles operating within man. No one has ever attempted to explain away the many occurences in the gospel narrative of Jesus conversing with Satan and demons and His own references to casting them out and judging them.

:hijacked: ?

Not really

Here is where this discussion about Satan and demons ties back into the OP.   :banana:

Mt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-41.htm interlinear view

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/25-41.htm lexicon view

Into "to pyr to ainion"....the fire the ages.... or the fire ageduring.... or the fire of the world to come.

In the opening post the question is "when was Hell created", and I think the question is meant to refer to the "popular hell".

Properly hell is translated from "sheol"-"the grave"- or "the unseen" (seventy some times)

Popular Hell's only possible connections to scripture is "to pyr to aionion" (as in the Mt 25)and the lake of fire(as iin Rev19 and 20) and "basanisthesetai en pyri kai theoi enopion angelon hagion" which is "tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels/messengers and the Lamb." in Rev 14. In "en pyri kai theoi"- theoi is sulfur, or brimstone or "fire of God", which the intense fire of burning sulfur was considered to be in ancient times, hence "theoi" or theon. Andrew Jukes, in his book, "The Restitution of all Things", did a great exposition on this and it was one of the first major things that confirmed UR for me when I first ran into it in my 20's.

"On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot." Psalms 11:6

So, popular Hell is a distortion of "to pyr to aionion" and "en pyri kai theoi" and according to Jesus it was created for the devil and his angels- and apparently for those unto whom He speaks the words, "Depart from me I do not know you."

These scriptures are all speaking of the same experience in my opinion- of aionion kolassis- correction in the world to come. It is likened to fire, because our God is a consuming fire... and it takes place "in His presence". All that enters "pyri kai theoi" (sulfur fire/fire of the gods)comes out purified.

sulfur was produced from "pyrite" (and to some extent still is altho now most sulfur comes from oil and gas by-products)

Pyrite is fire rock,  and by coincidence, it is also "fool's gold" because in its natural state it is sometimes mistaken for gold- but actually one of its main uses is to purify gold, because it is "brimstone"(burning rock), sulfur, and the ancients used it to create a hotter fire for smelting metals.

So the ETrs have "fools gold"- having replaced the fire of God which burns to purify because it is His glorious presence and it consumes darkness- with the fools gold of veangence and arbitrary revenge.

[CST]

You appear to be reading my arguments as if I'm arguing that the whole of the Bible is a metaphor which I'm obviously not. From you previous post, which I haven't got much time to discuss, you seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed.

Of course the Bible says God made humans and describes the births and lives of many humans, it's easy to take it on trust that those humans once existed but demons as currently understood really seem to just spring up in the New Testament in Israel with any explanation and get expelled, until Jesus exclusively by the likes of the Pharisees it seems who seem to operate a system that looks akin to the Dark Age system, of selling relics, pardons and indulgences all of which tended to be spurious fakes. We use the word 'demons' to describe people's problems all the time and we're talking in our first language. The Greek texts of the Bible aren't even written in Jesus' first language how do we know we're understanding them correctly, how do we know the translation wasn't restricted by the availability of what was in Greek? How can we be sure this wasn't a metaphor. I had problems with the idea of demons when I believed that the final fate of most humans was Eternal Torment. I worried about what happened a judgement to someone who died with still possessed by a demon. Are they still possessed in the resurrection? How does the effect of that possession whether presently or formerly influence how they are judged? People should be judged according to their own actions, if their reasoning is being compromised by the fact they have a demon than that doesn't seem like they can be judged fairly.

You can say Thanatos and Hades are not capitalised as proper names and that's technically true I believe, but only because in Greek grammar proper names don't have capital letters like in English. In English translations of Revelation the words are translated 'Death' and 'Hades' with capital letters because they are clearly personified beings. I'm also not aware of any times in Greek where Hades wasn't used as a proper name either of the realm of the dead or the god of the dead. That's what the word seems to stand for. John can't be using it that way, but I strongly suspect he's using the weight of the word if not its meaning.

Sorry, when I said 'we' I meant us at Tentmaker owing to the fact that on the site are multiple published articles describing the failings of the KJV, not only the Hell heavy Old Testament but also the fact it contains words like unicorn, even though their are no unicorns to speak of. But the text also translations some other passages in ways that seem more honest and fair to the original language than many modern translations.

But you ask for 'evidence' this might take awhile but you've reference the parable of the sheep and the goats so I'll start there, even though I hardly think it's the strongest point, just a pause for thought.

A point that may well have passed a lot of readers of the Bible by, including me until I checked, is that it appears that in the four Gospels the word 'Satan' appears almost exclusively in the words of Jesus, in Mark, Luke and John it appears once in narration (there's one exception in Mark if you count the line that is probably the most dubious text in scripture) but in Matthew and in all the other Gospels the only character that speaks the name 'Satan' is Jesus. No one else says it, they all seem to use other names. Jesus uses Satan, except, in the parable of the sower and the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Why? What's the reason for the change. In parables, when he's definitely been figurative Jesus also uses the term 'the devil'. This is also true, when Jesus calls His Jewish enemies, 'of [their] father the Devil'. Obviously that's not literally true, it's a metaphor meant to demonstrate how far from God they are.

So what's the difference between when Jesus uses the word 'Devil' and when He uses the name 'Satan'? Well it seems to be that uses uses the term 'the Devil' when He's speaking in terms that are clearly meant to be figurative, no one could really take them otherwise. So what about when He uses the term Satan? He uses the term exactly as you would expect Him to use it, when He's addressing enemies, to some degree or another. This includes disciples who are having ideas He appears not to approve of, although He doesn't always direct them term at them when giving them the warning, but the consistency remains. The only exception is in Mark's Gospel because, for some reason there Mark does have Jesus use the name 'Satan' in the parable of the sower whereas in Matthew and Luke, He says 'the Devil'. In fact the title 'Devil' never appears in Mark.

[marie glen]

I know there's not many references to angels/messengers in the Old Testament but there is some..

Thought I'd do a quick study..

Hebrews 1:6-7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers [#G32 - "messengers, angels"] of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'

Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'

"Messengers" - Young's Literal Version

Genesis 19:1
And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,

Genesis 22:11-12
And the messenger of Jehovah calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;'
and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth

Genesis 28:12
And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it;

Genesis 32:1
And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;

2 Kings 1:3
And a messenger of Jehovah hath spoken unto Elijah the Tishbite

Psalm 148:2
Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts.

-- edit - Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."

Matthew 4:6
and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God -- cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'

Matthew 4:11
Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.

Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.

Matthew 13:41
the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,

Matthew 13:49
so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Matthew 26:53
dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of messengers?

Luke 24:23
and not having found his body, they came, saying also to have seen an apparition of messengers, who say he is alive,

John 1:51
and he saith to him, `Verily, verily, I say to you, henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the messengers of God going up and coming down upon the Son of Man.'

John 20:11
and Mary was standing near the tomb, weeping without; as she was weeping, then, she stooped down to the tomb, and beholdeth two messengers in white, sitting,

Acts 7:53
who received the law by arrangement of messengers, and did not keep [it].'

1 Corinthians 13:1
If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'

Hebrews 1:6
and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'

Hebrews 1:7
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'

Hebrews 1:13
And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'

Hebrews 12:22
But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,

2 Peter 2:4
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

Jude 1:6
messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.

Revelation 5:11
And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree; (after the split atom, a pause, aka, now)

Revelation 8:2 and I saw the seven messengers who before God have stood, and there were given to them seven trumpets (pause over)

Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'

Revelation 12:7
And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

Revelation 12:9
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven messengers, who were having the seven vials, and he spake with me, saying to me, `Come, I will shew to thee the judgment of the great whore, who is sitting upon the many waters,

==============================

Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.

Job 38:4-7 - New King James Version (NKJV)

4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Well.. it's a little longer than I intended.. :laughing7:

hope to do a search on devils and demons next.. satan, devil.. Of course there's this one -

Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

[eaglesway]

you seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed

What I am suggesting is that if the narrative, which includes Jesus' acts and words regarding demons, is metaphor, then anything can be metaphor, and indeed it can all be a metaphor, because the gospels record those things as factual narrative, and Jesus and John and Paul teach about demons and the devil in ways that are definitely not metaphor. The same scriptures that teach about the Holy Spirit teach about angels, demons, etc.

However I am not asserting anything about what you believe about the Holy Spirit or God. I am just questioning and, I guess refuting, your application of scripture concerning demons, as an example of an inconsitent view of how to interpret scripture. I believe a person needs to apply the same basic principles across the board, not pick and choose what is convenient to ones preferences.

The Bible is rich with metaphors, but is not all metaphor, and we just simply disagree on how one determines what is metaphor and what isnt.

[CST]

I know there's not many references to angels/messengers in the Old Testament but there is some..

Thought I'd do a quick study..

Hebrews 1:6-7 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers [#G32 - "messengers, angels"] of God;'
7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'

Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'

"Messengers" - Young's Literal Version

Genesis 19:1
And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,

Genesis 22:11-12
And the messenger of Jehovah calleth unto him from the heavens, and saith, `Abraham, Abraham;' and he saith, `Here [am] I;'
and He saith, `Put not forth thine hand unto the youth

Genesis 28:12
And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it;

Genesis 32:1
And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;

2 Kings 1:3
And a messenger of Jehovah hath spoken unto Elijah the Tishbite

Psalm 148:2
Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts.

-- edit - Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."

Matthew 4:6
and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God -- cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'

Matthew 4:11
Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.

Matthew 13:39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.

Matthew 13:41
the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness,

Matthew 13:49
so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Matthew 26:53
dost thou think that I am not able now to call upon my Father, and He will place beside me more than twelve legions of messengers?

Luke 24:23
and not having found his body, they came, saying also to have seen an apparition of messengers, who say he is alive,

John 1:51
and he saith to him, `Verily, verily, I say to you, henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the messengers of God going up and coming down upon the Son of Man.'

John 20:11
and Mary was standing near the tomb, weeping without; as she was weeping, then, she stooped down to the tomb, and beholdeth two messengers in white, sitting,

Acts 7:53
who received the law by arrangement of messengers, and did not keep [it].'

1 Corinthians 13:1
If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'

Hebrews 1:6
and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'

Hebrews 1:7
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'

Hebrews 1:13
And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'

Hebrews 12:22
But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,

2 Peter 2:4
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

Jude 1:6
messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.

Revelation 5:11
And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree; (after the split atom, a pause, aka, now)

Revelation 8:2 and I saw the seven messengers who before God have stood, and there were given to them seven trumpets (pause over)

Revelation 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, `Wo, wo, wo, to those dwelling upon the land from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to sound.'

Revelation 12:7
And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,

Revelation 12:9
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven messengers, who were having the seven vials, and he spake with me, saying to me, `Come, I will shew to thee the judgment of the great whore, who is sitting upon the many waters,

==============================

Revelation 1:20
the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.

Job 38:4-7 - New King James Version (NKJV)

4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Well.. it's a little longer than I intended.. :laughing7:

hope to do a search on devils and demons next.. satan, devil.. Of course there's this one -

Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

The catch there is that messenger is a very broad term, it can be anything from a human God sends to deliver His instruction to another to an image that communicates His directives but has all the substance of the hologram of Princess Leia in Star Wars. That's part of my argument often, as soon as you translate these words to English suddenly they lose their mythical status. When they are called 'angels' they sound like they could be creatures that exist as a class of being, which is easy because that's how they're usually understood. As soon as you call them 'messengers' and they sound like that exist purely as couriers and have no independence of themselves. It's hard to see when they'd find the time to come up with the self-willed idea to rebel.

Again, as soon as you stop calling them 'angels' and start calling them messengers how you read the text changes because the word no longer has a special quality by which you would recognize beings with a special status.

[CST]

you seem to suggest that if I claim that the Bible uses figurative language when it invokes the idea of demons I may as well say it invokes figurative language when it invokes the Holy Spirit. That's not very fair given that to accept the Bible as saying anything especially worth hearing you need to accept the existence of God and thus the Holy Spirit who is God. You accept that and the God created the world which includes you and all the exists, but unless you have personal experience of it it's very hard to be sure what that the Bible describes actually exists or existed

What I am suggesting is that if the narrative, which includes Jesus' acts and words regarding demons, is metaphor, then anything can be metaphor, and indeed it can all be a metaphor, because the gospels record those things as factual narrative, and Jesus and John and Paul teach about demons and the devil in ways that are definitely not metaphor. The same scriptures that teach about the Holy Spirit teach about angels, demons, etc.

However I am not asserting anything about what you believe about the Holy Spirit or God. I am just questioning and, I guess refuting, your application of scripture concerning demons, as an example of an inconsitent view of how to interpret scripture. I believe a person needs to apply the same basic principles across the board, not pick and choose what is convenient to ones preferences.

The Bible is rich with metaphors, but is not all metaphor, and we just simply disagree on how one determines what is metaphor and what isnt.

Yeah, but I do actually think about this. I reject the idea of Satan and demons as literal beings because the Bible is not written in any language Jesus spoke, doesn't offer any direct explanation for what they writers or speakers mean when they use these words and then doubt it given that it also defies logical. I give you and example from a passage in the Bible that I'm sure is commonly used to argue for the existence of Satan. It's Luke 10:18 this is recorded:

'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'

Jesus appears to be lends credence to the story of the fall of Satan. Before I address that you may remember I said that Jesus only uses the term 'Satan' when He is address enemies, or those who are behaving as enemies at the time, this is no exception. In context this is what happens:

'The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!"
'And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."' (Luke 10:17-20)

This is a reprimand, it may be a very gentle and subtle one but it's a reprimand. Jesus is telling the disciples not to rejoice at the defeat of their enemies but only at the salvation of themselves.  And to support this argument He makes an allusion we imagine they were expected to understand to the defeat of His own enemy. Who fell to Earth, and created the mess that it's in now. So is the traditional understanding. Notice also that Jesus doesn't use the word 'demon' back to he disciples here, He says spirits here, is it a coincidence or is He being careful?

Here's the thing we are now, in the twenty first century, well beyond Babel. We have learned that there is no mountain we can climb or rocket we can build that will take us to Heaven because Heaven is not 'up there' in the sense it was understood to be my the people Jesus was address. As far as can be ascertained, Jesus is referring to something that the disciples understood from their Jewish teachings but doesn't appear to be mentioned in any of the Jewish works the Church holds as authoritative. Do we really take a story which we don't really know as true, based on a world view we know to be untrue because Jesus made reference to it while reprimanding His disciples for improper thinking? Heaven isn't literally 'up there' for Satan to fall 'down here'. I have no doubt the statement points to spiritual truth. But taking it literally seems pretty well impossible.

[marie glen]

I forgot this one I was going to include under the Old Testament references -

Ezekiel 9:4 - "And He calleth unto the man who is clothed with linen, who hath the scribe's inkhorn at his loins, and Jehovah saith unto him, `Pass on into the midst of the city, into the midst of Jerusalem, and thou hast made a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and who are groaning for all the abominations that are done in its midst'.."

t's likely you/all know the context..

[CST]

That one doesn't contain the word 'messenger'. And I'm not sure how much of the context of that is determined by Christian presupposition bias. Not sure how it acts as evidence for literal supernatural beings (other than God) either.

[marie glen]

That one doesn't contain the word 'messenger'. And I'm not sure how much of the context of that is determined by Christian presupposition bias. Not sure how it acts as evidence for literal supernatural beings (other than God) either.

you do not believe there are angels? and the context of what is happening should (imo) suggest these tho appearing as men, are not human men.. :)

"devil" references in the Young's Literal:

Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil, - Mt 4:1, YLV -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"

what tempted Jesus?

and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Rev 12:9 -- #G1228 - "diabolos - slanderer"


Matthew 4:8 -- Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,

Matthew 4:11 -- Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.

Matthew 13:39 -- and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.

Matthew 25:41 -- Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Luke 4:2 ---forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered,

Luke 4:3 -- and the Devil said to him, `If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.'

Luke 4:5 -- And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,

Luke 4:6 -- and the Devil said to him, `To thee I will give all this authority, and their glory, because to me it hath been delivered, and to whomsoever I will, I do give it;

Luke 4:13 -- And having ended all temptation, the Devil departed from him till a convenient season.

Luke 8:12 -- and those beside the way are those hearing, then cometh the Devil, and taketh up the word from their heart, lest having believed, they may be saved.

John 6:70 -- Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you -- the twelve? and of you -- one is a devil.

John 8:44 -- `Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.

John 13:2 -- And supper being come, the devil already having put [it] into the heart of Judas of Simon, Iscariot, that he may deliver him up,

Acts 10:38 -- Jesus who [is] from Nazareth -- how God did anoint him with the Holy Spirit and power; who went through, doing good, and healing all those oppressed by the devil, because God was with him;

Acts 13:10 -- said, `O full of all guile, and all profligacy, son of a devil, enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease perverting the right ways of the Lord?

Ephesians 4:27 -- neither give place to the devil;

Ephesians 6:11 -- put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil,

1 Timothy 3:6 -- not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;

1 Timothy 3:7 -- and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil.

2 Timothy 2:26 -- and they may awake out of the devil's snare, having been caught by him at his will.

Hebrews 2:14 -- Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

James 4:7 -- be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;

1 Peter 5:8 -- Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,

[marie glen]

CST, what is your reading on these verses? as to who or what..? thanks :smile:

Revelation 12:7-9 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon,
and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,'
and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world --
he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.