A Believer in Christ and in the Word of God

[Herschel]

Hello,

My name is Herschel! I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, His death on the cross, and that God has raised Him from the dead. Jesus Christ said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No man comes to the Father but by me".(John 14:8) He was not speaking of His oneness with God, even though He, God, and the Holy Spirit are one. God sent Him to the earth to live as a man because God cannot be sacrificed in our stead, only a someone who is fully a man fits that qualification. Only a spotless, sinless man could pay the price for our sin.That man was and is, The Lord Jesus Christ.  Yes, He is FULLY GOD, but He is also FULLY MAN! In Romans, 10:9-10 We are told that If we shall "confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in our heart that God has raised him from the dead, we shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

If we do not believe in Him in our heart, we cannot confess Him as Lord. John 3:18, says, (Jesus Himself speaking) "He that believes on him is not condemned; but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." 

[CST]

Hi, Herschel. Were you aware that there is some debate over whether the passage you quote is actually the recorded words of Jesus or whether they are they commentary od John on what Jesus said in the passage above. I'm not actually sure what difference it would make but wanted to know if you knew of this dispute and were telling us which side you fell on, or didn't and were taking for granted how it's traditionally been presented.

Welcome anyway, Herschel. Hope you find many answers here.

[Dandelion]

Hi Herschel!

Welcome to Tentmakers!

We discuss many topics here, but the main focus is whether or not we all gain eternal life, with God, through Jesus.

I hope you come here often. The Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth, I trust.

:welcome:

D.

[Shev]

Welcome Herschel!

[Herschel]

CST,

Satan said to Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden: "Has God said "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden"? Satan did not say what God had said, but planted subversion, with the intent of deception, in his question.
Now, you are saying to me, "Did Jesus REALLY say……..."? As to whether Jesus said it or not. I will have to trust The Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, who spoke the words, and to His witness's, to write those words down correctly.

Satan does come to snatch the truth away, and, if we allow him, will turn the truth into a lie. My bible says that Jesus Christ said it. I have faith in God's word to speak truth to me. I must put my final faith in the Word of God and NOT in what men tell me unless it lines up perfectly with the Word of God. In order to do this, I must study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

The Word is the only authority I have by which to try the spirits to see if they be of God. (1 John 4:1-2) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know you the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." I will say to you now, that Jesus Christ HAS DEFINITELY come in the flesh! The Apostle Paul Said: Therefore I endure all things for the elects sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Verse 14 of 2 Timothy 2, tells us "of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers". God forbid that I cause subversion among hearers of the gospel with arguments about words. I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth, because according to 1 John 2:26-27, "These things have I (Paul) written to you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him."

[marie glen]

Hi, Herschel. Were you aware that there is some debate over whether the passage you quote is actually the recorded words of Jesus or whether they are they commentary od John on what Jesus said in the passage above. I'm not actually sure what difference it would make but wanted to know if you knew of this dispute and were telling us which side you fell on, or didn't and were taking for granted how it's traditionally been presented.

Welcome anyway, Herschel. Hope you find many answers here.

I never heard of that debate! But ones like it.. Or maybe they were the same ones..? :Chinscratch: Or different verses, one or the other! Silly people! ...that's my opinion anyway.. 2 strange tendencies, to doubt God's Word - the original, before mistranslation married to legend (or vice versa?)
    And 2, to believe strange extra-biblical writings, I mean the strange ones, and 3 ( :laughing7: to not understand God's Word and start talking in strange and weird theories about God's Word so when a seeker of God comes around it's just a bunch of babble. Am I being judgmental? I am aren't I..? (And what about folks who are all bored with God's Word so they're into some sort of or all sorts of weird whatnots..) Sorry! Must be some Midwest redneck leaking out.. Actually I'm being kind of tongue in cheek.. God bless us all!

[marie glen]

Welcome Hershel! to Tentmaker forum! Hope we hear a lot from you around here. :welcome:

[Lazarus Short]

WELCOME, HERSCHEL!

[marie glen]

P.S - I forgot to express shock :mshock: at the idea of anyone being bored with God's Word.. :faint:
   :smile:

[Dandelion]

Love those animated pictures! Hahaha.

D.

[marie glen]

I love to use those! :laughing7: humor lightens the :HeartThrob: !

[CST]

Hi, Herschel. Were you aware that there is some debate over whether the passage you quote is actually the recorded words of Jesus or whether they are they commentary od John on what Jesus said in the passage above. I'm not actually sure what difference it would make but wanted to know if you knew of this dispute and were telling us which side you fell on, or didn't and were taking for granted how it's traditionally been presented.

Welcome anyway, Herschel. Hope you find many answers here.

I never heard of that debate! But ones like it.. Or maybe they were the same ones..? :Chinscratch: Or different verses, one or the other! Silly people! ...that's my opinion anyway.. 2 strange tendencies, to doubt God's Word - the original, before mistranslation married to legend (or vice versa?)
    And 2, to believe strange extra-biblical writings, I mean the strange ones, and 3 ( :laughing7: to not understand God's Word and start talking in strange and weird theories about God's Word so when a seeker of God comes around it's just a bunch of babble. Am I being judgmental? I am aren't I..? (And what about folks who are all bored with God's Word so they're into some sort of or all sorts of weird whatnots..) Sorry! Must be some Midwest redneck leaking out.. Actually I'm being kind of tongue in cheek.. God bless us all!

It's hard to pin down because I don't directly have information about what it concerns either. So I have to speculate on it's exact nature all I have is a series of Bibles all of which contain a footnote or comment saying that some scholars 'hold that that quotation ends at verse 15' or similar it took me awhile to work out what this meant but I think it's due to the fact that the Greek text contains no punctuation marks for quotation so you have to use reason and common sense to try and work out when people stop speaking. This usually doesn't seem to be a problem but in John 3 you have this:

'Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.' (John: 3:10-21)

Following RSV. Now that's the full passage. The text in bold is held without dispute to be the words of Jesus spoken in response to Nicodemus. The second part is considered by some that it might well be John's explanatory commentary on Jesus' words. I would imagine this is because it contains phrases like 'only Son of God' (only begotten) and talks about the light coming into the world. Terms that would seem to echo John's introductory passage to his Gospel which we know are his words and not direct quotes from Jesus spoken during His Earthly lifetime.

At the same time it's a very bold and authoritative statement not something I'd have thought John could just claim just because it feels right. Obviously it's been revealed to Him by Jesus and has His full authority, it just changes the meaning of the passage as to what Jesus actually said on that day. Surely it means exactly the same think to readers, He just never said it to Nicodemus.

[marie glen]

Interesting! thank you! :gsmile:

[CST]

Yeah, that supposition mainly refers to the 'Only Begotten' lines which can not, so far as I can tell be traced to the lips of Jesus, light has come lines can just about be connected to 'Light of the World' phrases, although they don't seem quite so dramatic.Important, of course, but consist of fewer lines of exposition and explanation. It seems to be similar statements He's making but they're scattered across the Gospel.

[eaglesway]

CST,

Satan said to Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden: "Has God said "Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden"? Satan did not say what God had said, but planted subversion, with the intent of deception, in his question.
Now, you are saying to me, "Did Jesus REALLY say........."? As to whether Jesus said it or not. I will have to trust The Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, who spoke the words, and to His witness's, to write those words down correctly.

Satan does come to snatch the truth away, and, if we allow him, will turn the truth into a lie. My bible says that Jesus Christ said it. I have faith in God's word to speak truth to me. I must put my final faith in the Word of God and NOT in what men tell me unless it lines up perfectly with the Word of God. In order to do this, I must study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

The Word is the only authority I have by which to try the spirits to see if they be of God. (1 John 4:1-2) "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know you the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." I will say to you now, that Jesus Christ HAS DEFINITELY come in the flesh! The Apostle Paul Said: Therefore I endure all things for the elects sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Verse 14 of 2 Timothy 2, tells us "of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers". God forbid that I cause subversion among hearers of the gospel with arguments about words. I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth, because according to 1 John 2:26-27, "These things have I (Paul) written to you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him."

:iagree:  :thumbsup:  :goodpost:

[marie glen]

I agree! that was very well said!!

[CST]

It's only well said if Herchel understood what i was saying when I asked him a question about something that when i explained to you you called 'interesting' the Bible records God's instruction to us in the forms of many different forms of literature one of those is history. At the point in John that was being cited there is a question mark over what the historical truth is as to what Jesus said to Nicodemus on that day, the Bible doesn't tell us clearly because it doesn't include the necessary punctuation to make it clear. I continue to be unsure if I might be able to read to scene differently knowing whether or not Jesus said the last part to Nicodemus on that day, I don't know if their are people who have interpretations of the scene that depend on one or other situation being true.

I was challenging the truth of the sentiment but only wondering if it did or didn't have a different weight depending on if Jesus said it on the day or not because it's a supremely important passage. I currently can't really think what difference it would make but I'm curious about the possibility.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: Oh yes.. I was agreeing with and applauding about how God's Word is our rule(r) for truth, the measure for what is truth and what isn't.. that being said we believers do disagree on what it says at times and in particular places.. Nothing wrong with that! I'm sure we are all right, and not quite as right, about many things.. I have no doubt I will have to amend my thoughts on some, if not many things :mshock:  :doh:  on that perfect day.. :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

It's only well said if Herchel understood what i was saying when I asked him a question about something that when i explained to you you called 'interesting' the Bible records God's instruction to us in the forms of many different forms of literature one of those is history. At the point in John that was being cited there is a question mark over what the historical truth is as to what Jesus said to Nicodemus on that day, the Bible doesn't tell us clearly because it doesn't include the necessary punctuation to make it clear. I continue to be unsure if I might be able to read to scene differently knowing whether or not Jesus said the last part to Nicodemus on that day, I don't know if their are people who have interpretations of the scene that depend on one or other situation being true.

I was challenging the truth of the sentiment but only wondering if it did or didn't have a different weight depending on if Jesus said it on the day or not because it's a supremely important passage. I currently can't really think what difference it would make but I'm curious about the possibility.

I think it was well said in any case. I wasnt affrming it in connection to your post. I was affirming it as a statement about the scriptures in general. It is a firmly established foundation of this site that " All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

[CST]

:thumbsup: Oh yes.. I was agreeing with and applauding about how God's Word is our rule(r) for truth, the measure for what is truth and what isn't.. that being said we believers do disagree on what it says at times and in particular places.. Nothing wrong with that! I'm sure we are all right, and not quite as right, about many things.. I have no doubt I will have to amend my thoughts on some, if not many things :mshock:  :doh:  on that perfect day.. :gsmile:

No, doubt. When we learn what things we think are right are what are wrong.

It's only well said if Herchel understood what i was saying when I asked him a question about something that when i explained to you you called 'interesting' the Bible records God's instruction to us in the forms of many different forms of literature one of those is history. At the point in John that was being cited there is a question mark over what the historical truth is as to what Jesus said to Nicodemus on that day, the Bible doesn't tell us clearly because it doesn't include the necessary punctuation to make it clear. I continue to be unsure if I might be able to read to scene differently knowing whether or not Jesus said the last part to Nicodemus on that day, I don't know if their are people who have interpretations of the scene that depend on one or other situation being true.

I was challenging the truth of the sentiment but only wondering if it did or didn't have a different weight depending on if Jesus said it on the day or not because it's a supremely important passage. I currently can't really think what difference it would make but I'm curious about the possibility.

I think it was well said in any case. I wasnt affrming it in connection to your post. I was affirming it as a statement about the scriptures in general. It is a firmly established foundation of this site that " All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Hmm, fine. However I am confident Herschel was responding to what I was saying. Unfortunately I'm not entirely sure what he was trying to say except disagree with me and I suspect he didn't know what I was actually saying due to lack of the background.

I've always wondered when I read that passage how we're supposed to know what is scripture and what is Scripture. Obviously Paul was referring to certain religious works, probably no Gospels as they hadn't been written yet and probably none of his epistles either. The Old Testament is presumably what he meant but that obviously doesn't exclude all other texts.

[Herschel]

The big question, it seems, is whether God is going to save even those who haven't accepted and received Jesus as their Lord. My main interest is in truth and rightly applying the word of God. Did Jesus die for ALL men? Of course He did! The scriptures tell us, (the key to that is "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") (John 3:16) But what about the "whosoever"'s who do not believe in Him? Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Well, Herschel is a man. It is our responsibility to heed the instructions of Christ and make sure that "no man deceive us. It is my responsibility to make sure that I can back what I say up with scripture, and deceive no man, but to speak the truth of God as it is WRITTEN, and NOT of my own "interpretation". I have learned in my 74 years, and scripturally so, that the Word of God confirms itself, and it literally, will interpret itself, if we will seek and ask God for the truth and trust Him for it. Then, if we will continue in the Word of God in order to learn the truth and renew our minds. Jesus says that If I will continue in His word I will be His disciple indeed. I will know the truth, and the truth will make me free.
The Word of God tells us to let everything be established by two or three witnesses.  If God tells us something in one place in the scriptures, He will confirm that to us in another place in the scriptures, thereby "interpreting", and confirming His word to us. 1 John 2:26-27 says, "These things have I written unto you concerning then that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." This "anointing" John speaks of here is the Holy Spirit.
A confirmation of 1 John 2: 26-27 (written by the Apostle, John) is found in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Here, rather than calling it the "anointing" The Apostle Paul identifies that "anointing" as "his Spirit" i.e., The Holy Spirit.  And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which thing also we speak, not in the words that mans wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul goes on to say, in the last sentence of verse 16, "But we have the mind of Christ".  If we have Christ's mind, it behooves us to use that, and not lean to our own understanding. These letters, written by Paul and by John, are written to CHRISTIANS. To you, and to me if it be that we have accepted Christ as our Lord.
If we are Christ's, and if we will continue in His word, and if we will seek, knock and ask God for the truth, then, according to the Word of God, we SHALL know the truth, and the truth WILL make us free.
If we would KNOW, that we KNOW that we know, then we must look for the revelation of that thing from the Holy Spirit, the "anointing" of God. Once the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you, there is no doubt as to what the truth is, and NO MAN can convince you that it isn't true.
I have found no place in scripture where God tells us, through His Word, that He will save all mankind through a "refining" in the lake of fire. Nor do I find where any man comes out of the lake of fire "refined".  I do find, in Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Again, in Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It only stands to reason, that if (Rev. 20:10)  "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into that same lake of fire, will they too not likewise be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever?

We serve a good, an awesome and a loving God who gave His only begotten Son to die in our place. This same God has given and continues to give us EVERY opportunity to be reconciled back to Him. We make our choice here. Those who died before Christ were preached to by the ultimate Evangelist, Jesus Christ Himself. He openly defeated Satan and took the keys to the kingdom from him and gave those keys to we who acknowledge and confess Him. We too, like Adam, have the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or, to eat of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ himself. It is our choice, it our "free will" option. As for me and my house, we choose Jesus Christ, and Life more abundant!   

[marie glen]

I love your thinking and the use of scripture, Herschel. I too believe the Word of God confirms its own self. And I too can only believe the Word, and something once the Spirit of God shows it and says amen to it.. I do however, also believe "God is the savior of all" (1 Tim 4:10) and "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord" (Ps 22:27). When? I believe the Holy Spirit has shown me during judgment 'day'. I made an image of what I believe the Spirit and the Word reveal about this - (2nd image on the page) - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html - that the ancient fall holy days are a shadow and outline of His long 2nd advent like the spring ones were of His first.

I've never been taught by men how to read the Bible, and for that I'm glad (monastic in nature). I believe the idea God could lose any thing or anyone cannot be true, for His Word says He is perfect and all knowing and almighty. Because I believe by the end of judgment 'day' and after being resurrected, all will "believe", repent and thus be written in the book of life - "every knee shall bend". And so I don't believe any humans go to the lake of fire/2nd death. Those of Rev chapter 19, being, I believe institutions of man "active" at the time of His return. Any doctrine which does not fully glorify His pristine character and ability, I do not believe can be true.

And only because of God's Word do I believe "immortal soul" cannot be true. For it was the serpent who said surely you won't die? but God said, "thou art dust". And Ecclesiastes 9:10 says in sheol there is neither thought nor doing.. therefore the idea of death as another form of living does not ring true to me but smacks of the belief of all those pagan nations.. which too, had the first gloomy 'afterlife', even fiery in Egypt thought. "if I am lifted up from the earth" Jesus said, "I will draw all to me" Jn 12:32. And so very many more verses...
God bless you, dear one! I greatly admire your approach.. and faith!

[U.R. like any other doctrine needs a very clear presentation and defense/support. A little leaven (error) can leaven the whole lump.]

[CST]

The big question, it seems, is whether God is going to save even those who haven't accepted and received Jesus as their Lord. My main interest is in truth and rightly applying the word of God. Did Jesus die for ALL men? Of course He did! The scriptures tell us, (the key to that is "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") (John 3:16) But what about the "whosoever"'s who do not believe in Him? Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Well, Herschel is a man. It is our responsibility to heed the instructions of Christ and make sure that "no man deceive us. It is my responsibility to make sure that I can back what I say up with scripture, and deceive no man, but to speak the truth of God as it is WRITTEN, and NOT of my own "interpretation". I have learned in my 74 years, and scripturally so, that the Word of God confirms itself, and it literally, will interpret itself, if we will seek and ask God for the truth and trust Him for it. Then, if we will continue in the Word of God in order to learn the truth and renew our minds. Jesus says that If I will continue in His word I will be His disciple indeed. I will know the truth, and the truth will make me free.
The Word of God tells us to let everything be established by two or three witnesses.  If God tells us something in one place in the scriptures, He will confirm that to us in another place in the scriptures, thereby "interpreting", and confirming His word to us. 1 John 2:26-27 says, "These things have I written unto you concerning then that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." This "anointing" John speaks of here is the Holy Spirit.
A confirmation of 1 John 2: 26-27 (written by the Apostle, John) is found in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Here, rather than calling it the "anointing" The Apostle Paul identifies that "anointing" as "his Spirit" i.e., The Holy Spirit.  And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which thing also we speak, not in the words that mans wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul goes on to say, in the last sentence of verse 16, "But we have the mind of Christ".  If we have Christ's mind, it behooves us to use that, and not lean to our own understanding. These letters, written by Paul and by John, are written to CHRISTIANS. To you, and to me if it be that we have accepted Christ as our Lord.
If we are Christ's, and if we will continue in His word, and if we will seek, knock and ask God for the truth, then, according to the Word of God, we SHALL know the truth, and the truth WILL make us free.
If we would KNOW, that we KNOW that we know, then we must look for the revelation of that thing from the Holy Spirit, the "anointing" of God. Once the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you, there is no doubt as to what the truth is, and NO MAN can convince you that it isn't true.
I have found no place in scripture where God tells us, through His Word, that He will save all mankind through a "refining" in the lake of fire. Nor do I find where any man comes out of the lake of fire "refined".  I do find, in Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Again, in Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It only stands to reason, that if (Rev. 20:10)  "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into that same lake of fire, will they too not likewise be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever?

We serve a good, an awesome and a loving God who gave His only begotten Son to die in our place. This same God has given and continues to give us EVERY opportunity to be reconciled back to Him. We make our choice here. Those who died before Christ were preached to by the ultimate Evangelist, Jesus Christ Himself. He openly defeated Satan and took the keys to the kingdom from him and gave those keys to we who acknowledge and confess Him. We too, like Adam, have the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or, to eat of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ himself. It is our choice, it our "free will" option. As for me and my house, we choose Jesus Christ, and Life more abundant!   

I'm not sure I understand you here as you seem to be arguing against yourself. As Glenda points out there are many places in the Bible where it declares the salvation of all men by God. You say two or three is enough for confirmation and there's plenty more verses than that which confirm UR.

Conversely, you imagine that if it says the three monsters will be tormented day and night forever and ever why not the humans cast in with them? But the confirmation on that is a lot weaker than that which says God saves all. Maybe whatever happens to them in the Lake of Fire will be part of the process that torments the three monsters.

I should also point out that it's easy to say that we should speak the truth as written and not of our own interpretation but this doesn't work in practice. We only know how to read what is written because we have been taught how to interpret the written word both those lessons in school and lessons in life, there's no such thing as reading the written word without interpreting it somehow. And not necessarily correctly especially when it's not in the first language.

[Herschel]

The big question, it seems, is whether God is going to save even those who haven't accepted and received Jesus as their Lord. My main interest is in truth and rightly applying the word of God. Did Jesus die for ALL men? Of course He did! The scriptures tell us, (the key to that is "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") (John 3:16) But what about the "whosoever"'s who do not believe in Him? Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Well, Herschel is a man. It is our responsibility to heed the instructions of Christ and make sure that "no man deceive us. It is my responsibility to make sure that I can back what I say up with scripture, and deceive no man, but to speak the truth of God as it is WRITTEN, and NOT of my own "interpretation". I have learned in my 74 years, and scripturally so, that the Word of God confirms itself, and it literally, will interpret itself, if we will seek and ask God for the truth and trust Him for it. Then, if we will continue in the Word of God in order to learn the truth and renew our minds. Jesus says that If I will continue in His word I will be His disciple indeed. I will know the truth, and the truth will make me free.
The Word of God tells us to let everything be established by two or three witnesses.  If God tells us something in one place in the scriptures, He will confirm that to us in another place in the scriptures, thereby "interpreting", and confirming His word to us. 1 John 2:26-27 says, "These things have I written unto you concerning then that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him." This "anointing" John speaks of here is the Holy Spirit.
A confirmation of 1 John 2: 26-27 (written by the Apostle, John) is found in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Here, rather than calling it the "anointing" The Apostle Paul identifies that "anointing" as "his Spirit" i.e., The Holy Spirit.  And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God. Which thing also we speak, not in the words that mans wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Paul goes on to say, in the last sentence of verse 16, "But we have the mind of Christ".  If we have Christ's mind, it behooves us to use that, and not lean to our own understanding. These letters, written by Paul and by John, are written to CHRISTIANS. To you, and to me if it be that we have accepted Christ as our Lord.
If we are Christ's, and if we will continue in His word, and if we will seek, knock and ask God for the truth, then, according to the Word of God, we SHALL know the truth, and the truth WILL make us free.
If we would KNOW, that we KNOW that we know, then we must look for the revelation of that thing from the Holy Spirit, the "anointing" of God. Once the Holy Spirit reveals truth to you, there is no doubt as to what the truth is, and NO MAN can convince you that it isn't true.
I have found no place in scripture where God tells us, through His Word, that He will save all mankind through a "refining" in the lake of fire. Nor do I find where any man comes out of the lake of fire "refined".  I do find, in Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Again, in Revelation 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It only stands to reason, that if (Rev. 20:10)  "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." and of those whose names are not found written in the book of life are cast into that same lake of fire, will they too not likewise be 'tormented day and night for ever and ever?

We serve a good, an awesome and a loving God who gave His only begotten Son to die in our place. This same God has given and continues to give us EVERY opportunity to be reconciled back to Him. We make our choice here. Those who died before Christ were preached to by the ultimate Evangelist, Jesus Christ Himself. He openly defeated Satan and took the keys to the kingdom from him and gave those keys to we who acknowledge and confess Him. We too, like Adam, have the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or, to eat of the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ himself. It is our choice, it our "free will" option. As for me and my house, we choose Jesus Christ, and Life more abundant!   

I'm not sure I understand you here as you seem to be arguing against yourself. As Glenda points out there are many places in the Bible where it declares the salvation of all men by God. You say two or three is enough for confirmation and there's plenty more verses than that which confirm UR.

Conversely, you imagine that if it says the three monsters will be tormented day and night forever and ever why not the humans cast in with them? But the confirmation on that is a lot weaker than that which says God saves all. Maybe whatever happens to them in the Lake of Fire will be part of the process that torments the three monsters.

I should also point out that it's easy to say that we should speak the truth as written and not of our own interpretation but this doesn't work in practice. We only know how to read what is written because we have been taught how to interpret the written word both those lessons in school and lessons in life, there's no such thing as reading the written word without interpreting it somehow. And not necessarily correctly especially when it's not in the first language.

What did Jesus do when to Satan tempted Him? He quoted Scripture as it was written.  Jesus' reply to Satan to counter the temptations were, "IT IS WRITTEN", then He spoke the scriptures, and defeated Satan at his own game with the Word of God. Jesus gives us this authority now. We are able to defeat Satan with the Word of God. Jesus has returned our original authority over the earth that Adam gave to Satan, if we only will acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior. Perhaps I digress, but I thought it was important that this be said.

I know this! Jesus Christ is Lord, I am washed in His blood. Believers in Christ are the righteous of God in Christ Jesus.  We cannot accept Christ for anyone else. Whether I believe that God will refine and cleanse those who lost in a lake of fire or not, really doesn't matter because what I believe doesn't matter or change God's preordained plan, it only changes MY destiny. Jesus Christ is real. I don't just believe it, I KNOW IT!  It is The Holy Spirit who calls us to Him. It is the Blood of Christ that saves us and washes us. If I know that I am saved, reconciled to God and washed in the blood of Christ, then I know that because I believe, the works that Jesus did, I SHOULD DO ALSO! John 14:12

How many times have I had to say to myself and to God, "Father, what is YOUR truth? These people say this, those people say that, but Lord God, I need YOUR answer. Please reveal YOUR truth concerning this matter, to me? Father you have told me not to follow or chase after men, for you are with me.....................Well, Father God, No matter what other men say, you haven't let me down yet! If we truly seek HIM, and HIS TRUTH, and it isn't meant to be a mystery to us, God will reveal HIS truth to us. In the meantime, I just have to trust His Word in Ephesians 4:11-16, "that through apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors; and teachers, His goal is for us to be perfected. We are edify the body of Christ; Till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."   

Evidently, we,............... those of us who believe, even the Bride of Christ, haven't reached that point yet, because we still disagree on too many things? I say unto the Church, to the Bride of Christ,  Are we TRULY of the Bride of Christ, or, are we deceiving our own selves? Why is it that there is any question? We seriously need to think about this question, and ask, and seek, and knock for the door to be opened, and that  almighty GOD might give us HIS answer.  Remember the miracles of God wrought by the Apostles and the Church in the book of Acts. The baptism of the Holy Spirit came when the 120 disciples were ALL in the upper room, ALL of one mind, and ALL of one accord. It is when the Bride of Christ, the Church, is all together, of one mind and of one accord that the Holy Spirit moves and miracles are accomplished. Matthew 18:19-20 " Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Heavenly Father, I ask you in Jesus name, WHERE IS THE CHURCH OF THE BOOK OF ACTS? USE US DEAR FATHER TO BRING BACK THIS CHURCH! USE US DEAR FATHER TO DO YOUR WILL ON EARTH, AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN! USE US DEAR LORD AND HEAVENLY FATHER! WE ASK THIS IN THE NAME, AND UNDER THE BLOOD OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST! AMEN!

[marie glen]

Oh I surely do echo and agree with that prayer!!

It is a belief (wonder?) of mine, if there isn't a seal on the forehead to go along with the seal on our heart which cries "abba Father, my Father!" in rev. chapter seven.. Now I know the great crowd from every nation, etc, is not as noticed as the 144,000 from Israel - you will not see Me again, Jerusalem, until you say"blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" - "if their falling away is salvation for the nations, what shall their gathering be but life from the dead?" (Resurrection/His return!)

Wouldn't that be awesome? Sealed upon the forehead with God's Holy Spirit? Which surely, should be, 100% clarity?

"Til we all meet in the perfection of the saints.."

Mightn't that possibly include a light upon all doctrine strongly held to, whether new or long lived..? It seems to me there is imperfection in the church.. Not surprising to me, as the good news has been handed down through human hands for 2000 years.. And the body of believers made up of humans.. Not surprising to me if we have lost some of the glory of the message.. And even picked up some baggage along the way. (Which I humbly, cannot help but wonder if, or equate with, the Gnostics which were sorta overrunning the church even in the apistle's and Paul's day.. Capitol of being those churches in Asia/Turkey..?) so I researched the notions of "immortal soul" (inherent immortality vs? putting on immortality at His return; and the extension of that, an eternal hell..

Psalm 22:27 - Remember and return to Jehovah, do all the ends of the earth, and before thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations." - Young's Literal Translation

God bless!!