A prophecy still holding true -- Mark 13:30 (“this tribe will not pass”)

[greg]

In the ancient Aramaic text of the gospel, Mark 13:30 reads literally, "Amen, I say to you, this שרבתא ("tribe") will not pass until all of these things will occur."

The Messiah refers to שרבתא  ("tribe")  in the same manner that the prophet Jeremiah referred to all of Israel as one "tribe/staff".   Jer. 51:19.

So the Mark 13:30 prophecy is actually not speaking of one "generation" (i.e. 70-years).  That word "generation" is just a mistranslation of שרבתא out of context.  More specifically, "generation" is an alternate translation of שרבתא as the word means all of these things depending on the context, "tribe, family, race, nation, generation, and genealogy."

So the Mark 13:30 prophecy cannot be narrowly-read as only "generation", because the word שרבתא is inherently about something larger -- the tribe/nation/genealogy of Israel.  Indeed, the tribal context specifically of Mark 13:30 can be found in Mark 13:27, "Then he will send his angels and assemble his chosen from the four winds from the beginning of the earth and up to the beginning of heaven"  -- note how this verse (Mark 13:27) appears to match the tribal reference in Revelation 7:1-4, "And after this, I saw four Angels standing over the four corners of the Earth and holding the four winds... And I heard the number who were sealed - one hundred and forty four thousand, from all the tribes of Israel."

Personally, I don't know who the tribes are today. I can only trust the Father knows, and that's a happy thought.   If my neighbor is descended from an ancient Israelite, awesome.  If not, he's still my neighbor.

John 1:47, "Yahshua saw Nathaniel when he came to him and said about him: 'Behold, truly a son of Israel in whom is no deceit.'"

John 8:39, "Yahshua said to them, 'If you were children of Abraham, you would have been doing the works of Abraham.'"

Mark 3:33-35, "And he answered and said to them, 'Who is my mother and who are my brothers?' And he looked on those who were sitting with him and he said, 'Here is my mother and here are my brethren. For whoever shall do the will of אלהא is my brother and my sister and my mother.'"

[joeteekay]

That is an interesting find greg. It sure fits better with the context.
Of all the literal translations of the Greek, the only one I found that fits the Aramaic is the Analytical Literal Translation:

ALT(i) 30 "Positively, I say to you, this generation [or, race] shall by no means pass away until all these [things] happen.
:Peace2:

[greg]

Right on, thank you for that added perspective.

Matthew 23:36 is also very insightful here because we see the word שרבתא  covering a massive time period: from Cain & Abel all the way through Zechariah, "Truly I say to you that all these things will come upon this שרבתא  ("tribe/genealogy")." 

When Cain killed Abel, that was from an earlier generation.  It was also a crime committed before the tribe of Israel existed.  So I think that ultimately the matter being described in Matthew 23:36 is the genealogy of Cain. 

The Messiah comes from the genealogy of Seth, and probably his apostles were from that genealogy as well, though maybe not all of them.

[rosered]

Right on, thank you for that added perspective.

Matthew 23:36 is also very insightful here because we see the word שרבתא  covering a massive time period: from Cain & Abel all the way through Zechariah, "Truly I say to you that all these things will come upon this שרבתא  ("tribe/genealogy")." 

When Cain killed Abel, that was from an earlier generation.  It was also a crime committed before the tribe of Israel existed.  So I think that ultimately the matter being described in Matthew 23:36 is the genealogy of Cain. 

The Messiah comes from the genealogy of Seth, and probably his apostles were from that genealogy as well, though maybe not all of them.

  Hi Greg ,
  I hope we could consider this  also  , God willing .
  Perhaps I am way to  simple   with   understanding  and see things  maybe with a broad brush , collectively.
But what if Jesus is just  speaking of the  human race     or   the types of kings of the earth    or the tribe of  human beings  , or the genealogy   of simply Adam in which  all come to judgment and die ?
We are  ALL  here in the   corruptible state   born of Adam  , and this is the  generation of   ''all these things will come upon ''  because of human effort  and futility .

And there is nothing new under the Sun ....     Making GODS word true in   every   way   , because it applies to the human race   as a whole   though time and stages and   always  ''in effect '' 

We were given    from Adam  930 years   to  the promise of ''shorting the days ''  in the Psalms  to 70 or 80 by grace . and than we  fly away .

   This period of time  will cause'' all things''  to   come upon   a human life  , life and death   and even CHRIST  coming and return ,  whom is God.

I am one whom has always considered the scriptures   speaking from the earthly realm    as temporal    and the Spiritual  realm as  no end .

If 1000  years is to  GOD one day    , than  the original Adam   did not even live one day in Gods sight ...
  How much more for the rest of the human[Adamic ]   race or tribe / like or kind  / birth etc ...   

Hope to consider them  thoughts  as  a repeated   and continual   progression as to seeing the  futility of  all being   born in Adam  and of the earthly   condition  ,  being subject to   ''Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God   and its   end results  in Mark  and Mathew and Luke    with the warnings  of  being carnal  or human in nature/likeness /birth / origin / race / creed / genealogy / tribe  , of its own kind  and how it is effected cause (something) to happen; bring about. and affected influenced or touched by an external factor..Being God  Himself .  whom is Spirit and Life and  Love  and a consuming fire .

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: Rose......in one of the Lost books..there is a passage that speaks......'and when that race which is taken up that obeys

  Him"  I always accepted it as when all men were raised up in the image and likeness of Christ. By the same token..I have no problems

accepting 'that dying race' or rebellious race..as man bearing the corruptible image/disobedience/flesh and blood can not please God.

                                   my  :2c:

[greg]

Thank you for the comments and insights rosered and sheila.

Interestingly, שרבתא is one of those words that is both singular and plural, like the word "sheep" or "deer" in English.  So it requires context. 

Often the word שרבתא is presented with a pronoun modifier such as הדא ("this tribe/genealogy/generation") or כלהין ("all/any tribes/genealogies/generations").   

In both of the examples cited in my posts above (Mark 13:30 and Matthew 23:36, we see the modifier הדא ("this generation").  Indeed, that is its most common modifier of that noun in the gospel.  If the gospel wanted to say "genealogy of Adam" then it would read just like Luke 2:4 שרבתה דדויד ("his genealogy of David"), or any of the examples from Revelation 7:5-8 (i.e., "his tribe of Benjamin")

Revelation 7:9 uses שרבא expansively to mean multiple generations spanning potentially the entire history of earth, "After this I saw many multitudes which were impossible to count, which were of all people, generations, nations, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, and wearing white garments and with palms in their hands."

Now, when there is no pronoun modifier before שרבתא and the context is expansive/interpretive (ie. Luke 1:50), then we are especially invited to consider the fundamental root word for meaning -- and the root word can indeed be suggestive of returning to the source (i.e., Adam, or house of Adam).

In Hebrew שר means "head" or "ruler".  And בתא means "house" or "family" or "daughter".

So there is intellectual potential for an expansive reading to include the entire 'house of the head', but when we actually do the leg work and check that expansive theory against every example of the word שרבתא in a concordance, we see that the word primarily takes the meaning of a temporal, limited class of persons.  Scholars find the same situation with the Greek as well (though the Greek uses more conjugations from its root, genea), which is why C.S. Lewis wrote regarding Mark 13:30, "It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the bible."  Bible skeptics love Mark 13:30 because they rely solely on the greek genea.  But when we observe that genea is a greek translation of the word שרבתא spoken by Yahshua, then the skeptics must go back to square one, because שרבתא means "tribe, family, race, nation, generation, and genealogy."

Indeed, Mark 8:38 comes to mind for the skeptics, "For everyone who shall be ashamed of me and my words in this sinful and adulterous generation, of him also shall The Son of Man be ashamed whenever he comes in the glory of his Father with his holy angels."

[Dandelion]

Actually, Greg, I had often wondered about that Bible verse, and it made me a bit uneasy, as obviously, that generation had long since passed away.

Thank you for sharing your insight with us! I appreciate it.

D.

[rosered]

Thanks .....Shelia ,

I have considered  in the Day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall surly die , in Gods sight  Adam lived 70 years   shy of the DAY/1000 years being One Day  being the life   mankind [As  70yrs now being our life expectancy in Adam]   2 Peter 3;8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And can be the corruptible  or /perishable  state /condition...That the lORD JESUS CHRIST /WORD OF GOD   shared with every  generation   ..

Thanks Greg .... that was a good    explanation as possibles ... :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, "Be saved from this corrupt generation." Acts 2

[greg]

The Hebrew root of the Aramaic  שרבתא ("tribe/genealogy") is שרבט ("rod/empire"). 

Both words inherently refer to something that exists beyond any one generation, even though technically, an observer can also use שרבתא as a snapshot at any given time to describe his current "tribe" as a "tribe". 

Perhaps in that sense the word שרבתא seems confusing when translated in English, but let me give an analogy for clarity: "family".  "Family" has multiple definitions, yet one unified definition.  It's just one word, but it can be a snapshot in current time & space, or travel across time & space in context.

For example, I can use the English word "family" easily to refer to my existing family now living ("my family is going to the beach tomorrow"), or I can use the word "family" in an ambiguous generational sense ("we are a farming family").  I can even say very generally, "I am part of the human family" to reach across the full spectrum of time and space.   

שרבתא ("tribe") is just like that in Aramaic/Hebrew.

Even the pronoun modifier הדא ("this") doesn't trump greater context.  For example, "This family has seen hard times."  You would need to read the entire paragraph context to know if I'm taking a snapshot in time (this current living family) or speaking in a generational sense (this family lineage has seen hard times).   Even the plural pronoun modifier כלהין ("all of them") can only be understood in context and does not trump context.  For example, "all of the families attended the barbeque on Sunday" is not more expansive than "this family migrated from Israel."  In Hebrew, an interpretation without context is like a flower without a top-- you don't even know what you're seeing, let alone enjoying and utilizing productively!

That is why the context of Mark 13:30 was so important.  As I highlighted, "the tribal context specifically of Mark 13:30 can be found in Mark 13:27, "Then he will send his angels and assemble his chosen from the four winds from the beginning of the earth and up to the beginning of heaven"  -- note how this verse (Mark 13:27) appears to match the tribal reference in Revelation 7:1-4, "And after this, I saw four Angels standing over the four corners of the Earth and holding the four winds... And I heard the number who were sealed - one hundred and forty four thousand, from all the tribes of Israel."

[rosered]

I again   thank you for sharing your thoughts and  studies  Greg and John    for adding   some wonderful insights  to them


  I love the idea  of family  Greg ,
  It made me think again of the family of God    Though the Word and Spirit of God   
and How Jesus whom was Gods Voice   speaking  to  any at any time  and to us  even to this day   as the written Word becomes a spoken Word and  than a Living Word   working in us

  When He told the   group of  unbelievers     they were of their father the devil in  John  8

...43Why do you not understand what I am saying?

It is because you are unable to accept My message.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him.

When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies

. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!...

I have considered  they were born  of the tree of knowlege of good and evil      with the  power of life and death in their tongues  ,  but death    was its fruit of doings because they used the LAW    unlawfully      making them children of disobedience     .

And    if they do not become Born again of the TREE OF LIFE     they have   judged  wickedly  and will also be judged by the same measure  they have judged 
  Because judgement begins in the house of God and they claim   to know God but refuse  to accept    the WORD OF GOD / LORD JESUS CHRIST to  become children of the light and obedience and day

Seeing both as    a  family  of , either or  ,     in the sense of this one    being the offspring of  snakes /vipers  and darkness / blind night dwellers    and the other  offspring as lambs  that follow  their Master  to be taken care of   , in comparisons  to scriptures .

   I am child like in understanding  all these things , but still enjoy  learning better   things  of the Holy Spirit and Word of life .

It has been most helpful   and thankful for everyone   and their  input   :HeartThrob:

[greg]

Thank you rosered.  Nice insights -- perhaps its the word spacing in your posts, I find that your posts read best when I take time to read slowly and thoughtfully. 

On the topic above here, it comes to mind that Cain & Abel were brothers/family.

Perhaps even on another more fundamental level, there are 'families of energy' as well in the universe. 

Indeed, keeping true to the Hebrew root word שרבט , the matter is about lines of power.  When those lines are people, they are lineages, which later took the meaning "tribes" in the context of the Hebrew experience.

[rosered]

Thank you rosered.  Nice insights -- perhaps its the word spacing in your posts, I find that your posts read best when I take time to read slowly and thoughtfully. 

On the topic above here, it comes to mind that Cain & Abel were brothers/family.

Perhaps even on another more fundamental level, there are 'families of energy' as well in the universe. 

Indeed, keeping true to the Hebrew root word שרבט , the matter is about lines of power.  When those lines are people, they are lineages, which later took the meaning "tribes" in the context of the Hebrew experience.

:dsunny: