In the ancient Aramaic text of the gospel, Mark 13:30 reads literally, "Amen, I say to you, this שרבתא ("tribe") will not pass until all of these things will occur."
The Messiah refers to שרבתא ("tribe") in the same manner that the prophet Jeremiah referred to all of Israel as one "tribe/staff". Jer. 51:19.
So the Mark 13:30 prophecy is actually not speaking of one "generation" (i.e. 70-years). That word "generation" is just a mistranslation of שרבתא out of context. More specifically, "generation" is an alternate translation of שרבתא as the word means all of these things depending on the context, "tribe, family, race, nation, generation, and genealogy."
So the Mark 13:30 prophecy cannot be narrowly-read as only "generation", because the word שרבתא is inherently about something larger -- the tribe/nation/genealogy of Israel. Indeed, the tribal context specifically of Mark 13:30 can be found in Mark 13:27, "Then he will send his angels and assemble his chosen from the four winds from the beginning of the earth and up to the beginning of heaven" -- note how this verse (Mark 13:27) appears to match the tribal reference in Revelation 7:1-4, "And after this, I saw four Angels standing over the four corners of the Earth and holding the four winds... And I heard the number who were sealed - one hundred and forty four thousand, from all the tribes of Israel."
Personally, I don't know who the tribes are today. I can only trust the Father knows, and that's a happy thought. If my neighbor is descended from an ancient Israelite, awesome. If not, he's still my neighbor.
John 1:47, "Yahshua saw Nathaniel when he came to him and said about him: 'Behold, truly a son of Israel in whom is no deceit.'"
John 8:39, "Yahshua said to them, 'If you were children of Abraham, you would have been doing the works of Abraham.'"
Mark 3:33-35, "And he answered and said to them, 'Who is my mother and who are my brothers?' And he looked on those who were sitting with him and he said, 'Here is my mother and here are my brethren. For whoever shall do the will of אלהא is my brother and my sister and my mother.'"
That is an interesting find greg. It sure fits better with the context.
Of all the literal translations of the Greek, the only one I found that fits the Aramaic is the Analytical Literal Translation:
ALT(i) 30 "Positively, I say to you, this generation [or, race] shall by no means pass away until all these [things] happen.
:Peace2:
Right on, thank you for that added perspective.
Matthew 23:36 is also very insightful here because we see the word שרבתא covering a massive time period: from Cain & Abel all the way through Zechariah, "Truly I say to you that all these things will come upon this שרבתא ("tribe/genealogy")."
When Cain killed Abel, that was from an earlier generation. It was also a crime committed before the tribe of Israel existed. So I think that ultimately the matter being described in Matthew 23:36 is the genealogy of Cain.
The Messiah comes from the genealogy of Seth, and probably his apostles were from that genealogy as well, though maybe not all of them.
Quote from: greg on June 25, 2016, 04:31:17 AM
Right on, thank you for that added perspective.
Matthew 23:36 is also very insightful here because we see the word שרבתא covering a massive time period: from Cain & Abel all the way through Zechariah, "Truly I say to you that all these things will come upon this שרבתא ("tribe/genealogy")."
When Cain killed Abel, that was from an earlier generation. It was also a crime committed before the tribe of Israel existed. So I think that ultimately the matter being described in Matthew 23:36 is the genealogy of Cain.
The Messiah comes from the genealogy of Seth, and probably his apostles were from that genealogy as well, though maybe not all of them.
Hi Greg ,
I hope we could consider this also , God willing .
Perhaps I am way to simple with understanding and see things maybe with a broad brush , collectively.
But what if Jesus is just speaking of the human race or the types of kings of the earth or the tribe of human beings , or the genealogy of simply Adam in which all come to judgment and die ?
We are ALL here in the corruptible state born of Adam , and this is the generation of ''all these things will come upon '' because of human effort and futility .
And there is nothing new under the Sun .... Making GODS word true in every way , because it applies to the human race as a whole though time and stages and always ''in effect ''
We were given from Adam 930 years to the promise of ''shorting the days '' in the Psalms to 70 or 80 by grace . and than we fly away .
This period of time will cause'' all things'' to come upon a human life , life and death and even CHRIST coming and return , whom is God.
I am one whom has always considered the scriptures speaking from the earthly realm as temporal and the Spiritual realm as no end .
If 1000 years is to GOD one day , than the original Adam did not even live one day in Gods sight ...
How much more for the rest of the human[Adamic ] race or tribe / like or kind / birth etc ...
Hope to consider them thoughts as a repeated and continual progression as to seeing the futility of all being born in Adam and of the earthly condition , being subject to ''Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and its end results in Mark and Mathew and Luke with the warnings of being carnal or human in nature/likeness /birth / origin / race / creed / genealogy / tribe , of its own kind and how it is effected cause (something) to happen; bring about. and affected influenced or touched by an external factor..Being God Himself . whom is Spirit and Life and Love and a consuming fire .
:thumbsup: Rose......in one of the Lost books..there is a passage that speaks......'and when that race which is taken up that obeys
Him" I always accepted it as when all men were raised up in the image and likeness of Christ. By the same token..I have no problems
accepting 'that dying race' or rebellious race..as man bearing the corruptible image/disobedience/flesh and blood can not please God.
my :2c:
Thank you for the comments and insights rosered and sheila.
Interestingly, שרבתא is one of those words that is both singular and plural, like the word "sheep" or "deer" in English. So it requires context.
Often the word שרבתא is presented with a pronoun modifier such as הדא ("this tribe/genealogy/generation") or כלהין ("all/any tribes/genealogies/generations").
In both of the examples cited in my posts above (Mark 13:30 and Matthew 23:36, we see the modifier הדא ("this generation"). Indeed, that is its most common modifier of that noun in the gospel. If the gospel wanted to say "genealogy of Adam" then it would read just like Luke 2:4 שרבתה דדויד ("his genealogy of David"), or any of the examples from Revelation 7:5-8 (i.e., "his tribe of Benjamin")
Revelation 7:9 uses שרבא expansively to mean multiple generations spanning potentially the entire history of earth, "After this I saw many multitudes which were impossible to count, which were of all people, generations, nations, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, and wearing white garments and with palms in their hands."
Now, when there is no pronoun modifier before שרבתא and the context is expansive/interpretive (ie. Luke 1:50), then we are especially invited to consider the fundamental root word for meaning -- and the root word can indeed be suggestive of returning to the source (i.e., Adam, or house of Adam).
In Hebrew שר means "head" or "ruler". And בתא means "house" or "family" or "daughter".
So there is intellectual potential for an expansive reading to include the entire 'house of the head', but when we actually do the leg work and check that expansive theory against every example of the word שרבתא in a concordance, we see that the word primarily takes the meaning of a temporal, limited class of persons. Scholars find the same situation with the Greek as well (though the Greek uses more conjugations from its root, genea), which is why C.S. Lewis wrote regarding Mark 13:30, "It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the bible." Bible skeptics love Mark 13:30 because they rely solely on the greek genea. But when we observe that genea is a greek translation of the word שרבתא spoken by Yahshua, then the skeptics must go back to square one, because שרבתא means "tribe, family, race, nation, generation, and genealogy."
Indeed, Mark 8:38 comes to mind for the skeptics, "For everyone who shall be ashamed of me and my words in this sinful and adulterous generation, of him also shall The Son of Man be ashamed whenever he comes in the glory of his Father with his holy angels."
Actually, Greg, I had often wondered about that Bible verse, and it made me a bit uneasy, as obviously, that generation had long since passed away.
Thank you for sharing your insight with us! I appreciate it.
D.
Thanks .....Shelia ,
I have considered in the Day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall surly die , in Gods sight Adam lived 70 years shy of the DAY/1000 years being One Day being the life mankind [As 70yrs now being our life expectancy in Adam] 2 Peter 3;8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
And can be the corruptible or /perishable state /condition...That the lORD JESUS CHRIST /WORD OF GOD shared with every generation ..
Thanks Greg .... that was a good explanation as possibles ... :thumbsup:
This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, "Be saved from this corrupt generation." Acts 2
The Hebrew root of the Aramaic שרבתא ("tribe/genealogy") is שרבט ("rod/empire").
Both words inherently refer to something that exists beyond any one generation, even though technically, an observer can also use שרבתא as a snapshot at any given time to describe his current "tribe" as a "tribe".
Perhaps in that sense the word שרבתא seems confusing when translated in English, but let me give an analogy for clarity: "family". "Family" has multiple definitions, yet one unified definition. It's just one word, but it can be a snapshot in current time & space, or travel across time & space in context.
For example, I can use the English word "family" easily to refer to my existing family now living ("my family is going to the beach tomorrow"), or I can use the word "family" in an ambiguous generational sense ("we are a farming family"). I can even say very generally, "I am part of the human family" to reach across the full spectrum of time and space.
שרבתא ("tribe") is just like that in Aramaic/Hebrew.
Even the pronoun modifier הדא ("this") doesn't trump greater context. For example, "This family has seen hard times." You would need to read the entire paragraph context to know if I'm taking a snapshot in time (this current living family) or speaking in a generational sense (this family lineage has seen hard times). Even the plural pronoun modifier כלהין ("all of them") can only be understood in context and does not trump context. For example, "all of the families attended the barbeque on Sunday" is not more expansive than "this family migrated from Israel." In Hebrew, an interpretation without context is like a flower without a top-- you don't even know what you're seeing, let alone enjoying and utilizing productively!
That is why the context of Mark 13:30 was so important. As I highlighted, "the tribal context specifically of Mark 13:30 can be found in Mark 13:27, "Then he will send his angels and assemble his chosen from the four winds from the beginning of the earth and up to the beginning of heaven" -- note how this verse (Mark 13:27) appears to match the tribal reference in Revelation 7:1-4, "And after this, I saw four Angels standing over the four corners of the Earth and holding the four winds... And I heard the number who were sealed - one hundred and forty four thousand, from all the tribes of Israel."
I again thank you for sharing your thoughts and studies Greg and John for adding some wonderful insights to them
I love the idea of family Greg ,
It made me think again of the family of God Though the Word and Spirit of God
and How Jesus whom was Gods Voice speaking to any at any time and to us even to this day as the written Word becomes a spoken Word and than a Living Word working in us
When He told the group of unbelievers they were of their father the devil in John 8
...43Why do you not understand what I am saying?
It is because you are unable to accept My message.
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies
. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!...
I have considered they were born of the tree of knowlege of good and evil with the power of life and death in their tongues , but death was its fruit of doings because they used the LAW unlawfully making them children of disobedience .
And if they do not become Born again of the TREE OF LIFE they have judged wickedly and will also be judged by the same measure they have judged
Because judgement begins in the house of God and they claim to know God but refuse to accept the WORD OF GOD / LORD JESUS CHRIST to become children of the light and obedience and day
Seeing both as a family of , either or , in the sense of this one being the offspring of snakes /vipers and darkness / blind night dwellers and the other offspring as lambs that follow their Master to be taken care of , in comparisons to scriptures .
I am child like in understanding all these things , but still enjoy learning better things of the Holy Spirit and Word of life .
It has been most helpful and thankful for everyone and their input :HeartThrob:
Thank you rosered. Nice insights -- perhaps its the word spacing in your posts, I find that your posts read best when I take time to read slowly and thoughtfully.
On the topic above here, it comes to mind that Cain & Abel were brothers/family.
Perhaps even on another more fundamental level, there are 'families of energy' as well in the universe.
Indeed, keeping true to the Hebrew root word שרבט , the matter is about lines of power. When those lines are people, they are lineages, which later took the meaning "tribes" in the context of the Hebrew experience.
Quote from: greg on July 01, 2016, 02:55:22 AM
Thank you rosered. Nice insights -- perhaps its the word spacing in your posts, I find that your posts read best when I take time to read slowly and thoughtfully.
On the topic above here, it comes to mind that Cain & Abel were brothers/family.
Perhaps even on another more fundamental level, there are 'families of energy' as well in the universe.
Indeed, keeping true to the Hebrew root word שרבט , the matter is about lines of power. When those lines are people, they are lineages, which later took the meaning "tribes" in the context of the Hebrew experience.
:dsunny: