disproving the noetic effects of sin

[ask21771]

http://www.theopedia.com/noetic-effects-of-sin is there a way to disprove this

[rosered]

  Greetings ask21771 ,

For me  only at this time ,     the sin of Adam was  spiritual immaturity     ,  He was  blaming    the woman   for eating  of the tree and  hiding this within  himself
God gave Adam a direct    command NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the DAY   he ate of it death would  enter into  him

and instead of saying I was disobedient    and brought harm  in the garden of Life / Eden   Gods pleasure , He hid  himself from God  because it was soon a  reality he was naked before the Lord  and open to  error  /evil
no longer under a protection of innocence  or ignorance .
 

[GodIsLove]

Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.

I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.

I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.

This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.

Just my thoughts.

[Lazarus Short]

The link did not work well for me - very hard to read.  What does "noetic" refer to?

[rosered]

The link did not work well for me - very hard to read.  What does "noetic" refer to?

  here ya go Laz ,,no·et·ic
nōˈetik/Submit
adjective
of or relating to mental activity or the intellect.

[rosered]

Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.

I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.

I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.

This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.

Just my thoughts.

I agree in   so many aspects    Godislove   with all you are saying,,

  I just know when reading  Genesis 1 they were perfect   being spiritual  only   and One   male&female   as Adam ...  and what God joined  together no man can separate .   just as we shall  also return  in the same manner .
  it was not till God made them  dust of the ground and made them  a  living soul  by His breath  and took   the female  outside of Adam   and renaming it Eve    do we come into   the   ''corruption ''      in Gen 2  sure could have been Gods plan  all along  I reckon '

too me the serpent ''mind carnal ''   nature was something the both shared   from the dust of the earth , it is the serpent's food  source [destruction of the flesh/adversity ]

I guess I should read all the links and not just the one and may learn something new  ,  was way to busy  yesterday    , this is just   thoughts from the Word of God /Bible :dsunny:

I always enjoy reading your  thoughts  :thumbsup:


we can always change our minds  :thumbsup:

[ask21771]

Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.

I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.

I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.

This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.

Just my thoughts.

if sin corrupts the mind how do we know universal salvation is true

[GodIsLove]

Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.

I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.

I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.

This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.

Just my thoughts.

if sin corrupts the mind how do we know universal salvation is true

I guess I believe in universal salvation because I believe God showed it to me.

I think sin corrupts the mind because I have seen evidence in my own life and the life of others.

Things like:

2 Thessalonians 2 (YLT) ...and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 4 (YLT) ...in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

Matthew 13: (YLT)  FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Titus 1:15: (NIV) To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

So if we can't trust our minds and thoughts and feelings, I believe this is referring to the carnal mind.

Ephesians 4:
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

20That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.


So I believe that God puts a new mind, new heart, new attitude in us in our appointed times and this is what we can trust to be true.

Only then can we truly understand and believe in the amazing truth of God's unconditional love for all and the ultimate union of all with God.

This has need my own experience in my own life.

Hope this helps.

[rosered]

This is beautiful Godislove  :HeartThrob:

if sin corrupts the mind how do we know universal salvation is true

I agree with her ,   to repent is the change the mind ,  for the carnal mind that is death  ,being earthly  sensual and devilish .

to the mind of Christ that is peace and joy  in the Holy Spirit  and the things above


  Her is a simple verse    that can be taken literally  or spiritually ,   John 1 ;29   as the language  or power of the'' tongue  speaks  '''of life or death  , the tongue is an unruly little member   of our bodies   that no man can tame  , only Christ  can and He will !!...

Here is the verse  Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the whole world

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

King James Bible
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Darby Bible Translation
On the morrow he sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

World English Bible
The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Young's Literal Translation
on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;
 
equivalent to 264

to be without a share in

to miss the mark

to err, be mistaken

to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong

to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act

collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

The sin/error /work  of Adam was disobedience    , the  work and power of the Lord Jesus Christ /Word of God / Lamb of God is obedience

  the scripture   Ecc  9; 18  Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good.

  one sinner destroys much good , but one righteous [Christ]   brings much good 

  so in Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive ,  but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

One is the body of death ,the other IS the Body of Life  , as we all undergo    this transformation .

   This the   UR   thinking   in my  simple opinion , is what God is doing , He truly is reconciling the world to Himself though   '' all things '', that was made by Him and for Him and though Him the  very WORD OF LIFE   BY THE SPIRIT OF LIFE .

[ask21771]

what happens if you die before god renews your mind

[rosered]

what happens if you die before god renews your mind

I  think that is a great question  ask21771!!!!

And there many ways  to  consider   it ,  in my opinion   the  vastness of thoughts are   impossible to ''peg ''    but with God all things are possible .

what if many are dead    already while they live in the earth to God  ?    I have certainly consider this

He is the God of the living after all .

  I think the human flaw of   just what death means  and is described   as literally a dead carcass after the breath of God has left the body and    begins  to  rot   right?

That seems to be the means to an end ,in the  wide circles of human reasoning , but I dont think it is with God  at all .

I say this because,   in the day Adam  ate  of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he was dead ,

  Yet he went on  and lived another  930 years    in the earth .
   How can that be ?   

I personally believe death  is  opposing the Spirit of life   , like being born again  of Spirit and   water   , the waters of  life freely from above   and not below
  I have considered  everything is held in Christ being the  Lord of the dead and the living   and they can  rise in Christ   each in their own order .

God is in control    of everything  even Christ      the earth is His  footstool[enemies ] and the  heavens are His throne   [ Living ]   
It is how God will raise them up out of death and that is  to    His own  glory, to me

I did not use all them scriptures  , but a short answer   , if you want some scriptures I would gladly  add them    to help

  just sharing some of the   living things  and hope they help  .

[lastpost]

I am certainly no expert but there are a number of points of interest in this subject of The Noetic Effects of Sin, one of which is how a human being emotionally and psychologically filters information that they receive inwardly, whether this filtering is with or without a Christian theological application. There appear to be a number of different points of view among Christian writers.

While having the time to take a little look at a critical review article [by Dewey J. Hoitenga] of a book entitled: "The Noetic Effects of Sin" [by Steven K. Moroney, associate professor of theology at Malone Seminary], I came across some interesting social psychology research and its 'interdisciplinary Christian Theology application' on "thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought to think" in respect of others who are different... 

...[social human beings] "attribute our successes mostly to our own effort and ability (internal factors), but we explain our failures as the result of a difficult task or impossible situation (external factors)"; whereas "we typically blame others' failures on their enduring personality traits" and do not "give enough weight to situational constraints on others' [bad] behavior. In plain language, when I fail, it is because I was in an impossible situation, but when others fail, it is because that is just the sort of people they are"...

"...In addition and of considerable importance, researchers find that these attribution errors are well nigh universal; they show up in widely different social groups: children and adults, athletes and students, ministers, and divorcees. The explanation seems to be, in the language of one researcher, that "our very 'cognitive-processing mechanisms impose filters on incoming information that distort it'" in favor of ourselves and in disfavor of others (91).45 Some cultural factors seem to affect the degree to which these errors are manifested, for example, conservatives vs. liberals, privileged vs. underprivileged groups, individualistic (Western) vs. collectivist (Eastern) societies, males vs. females, and even people with high self-esteem vs. those with low self-esteem (90-92). Nevertheless, these differences (which loom large in contemporary consciousness) do not substantially affect the main conclusion. This conclusion is that "in the attributions we make, we are truly self-deceived . . . [and that] social psychological research indicates that most humans suffer more from pride than from low self-esteem" (92).


But what does all this "cannot see the plank in one's own eye" behaviour indicate?

Well, a part it has to play is considered as follows...

According to Maroney, Christian theology must reject certain prevailing ideas such as:

1)   The "...notion that self-serving cognitive distortions should [sometimes] actually be encouraged and cultivated"

2)   "The mentally healthy person appears to have the enviable capacity to distort reality in a direction that enhances self-esteem, maintains beliefs in personal efficacy, and promotes an optimistic view of the future . . . [so that] certain types of self-serving illusions should actually be viewed as 'adaptive for mental health and well-being"

Maroney also states that "any self-serving cognitive distortion is inherently evil—a noetic effect of sin"

He then says: "social psychology provides a helpful diagnosis of our woes, but provides little in the way of cure", and goes on to provide some "prescriptions".

Christian theology offers it [social psychology] at least three kinds of "admonishments," each of which Moroney elaborates upon, with references to some relevant Scriptural texts, to show how they are the starting points on the way to the cure: We are "to be self-critical, open to criticism by others, and humble" (103).

Hoitenga then quotes Moroney: 'Finally, "Christian theology offers us a compelling motivation to strive for holiness in our thinking, to seek what might be called noetic sanctification" (104). Happily, Moroney spells out this motivation... as an aspiration working from within us, to respond to the prescriptions that come to us from without, for it actually consists of the indwelling of the mind of Christ himself and of his Spirit, the Spirit of undistorted truth. Only with a profound inner change of mind and heart under the impact of divine grace will any prescriptions against the noetic effects of sin really work.'


Personally, I am in agreement. I would also add that, in my limited experience, taking time to enter the inner Silence and listen to the God within, the timeless inner Being of which the real Self is constituted and of which consists the Kingdom of God – Spirit, neither going to the extreme of straining or the other extreme of blankness but the balance between – this facilitates the dropping away of the external falsities which the personality has built up. I find great peace in spending a timed half an hour like this. (Incidentally, this is not the gift of Prayer in my opinion but a type of meditation).

These are just a few thoughts.

[eaglesway]

 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

I am not sure it should be disproved. As it was presented on the site it seemed pretty reasonable to me.

Seems to me "noetic effect of sin" depends somewhat on the nature of the sin. Some sins cause an immediate and substantial effect on the mind and the body. Some sins cause negative effects in the realm of familial affection and the ability to hold love in faithfulness and kindness.
As Paul said to Timothy, Some mens sins fo before them into judgment, some men's sins follow after.

[ask21771]

I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic  effect of sin

[eaglesway]

LOL. Funny.

Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.

Is that you scob?

[rosered]

I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic  effect of sin

You questions are   easy enough to answer   SCOOBY   :laugh:  the carnal mind is the  noetic / mental   illness and sin sickness unto death in my opinion  , it is the ENEMY AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF LIFE ........
  the WORD OF GOD     has two edges
  the letter of the law that kills  , we have all the sword slingers  and bible thumpers just bashing  everyone with hell fire and brimstone  , they are in fear themselves and   feed off it and  trap others with  fear of  hell and death   the carnally minded

  and the other  is the Spirit of life itself     the very teaching of Christ   that anointing of the Holy Spirit  that knows all things and   the Father gives us   whom ask  being evil /carnal [earthly sensual and devilish ] . you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will the  Father give  good gifts , the Holy spirit to those whom ask Him ?

  and of Course    Jesus stating  , '' Being careful how you hear''   .

The man in the tombs is a great example of   the noetic effects    mark 4 and Luke 8   ,    living in the tombs , being among the dead   and cutting himself with stones   being the law  on two tables of stone   and ministration of death  [ stony heart that the Word of Gods seed/Love  cannot  penetrate ] sin sickness not unto death  because Jesus did heal him and gave him a ''right mind ''   mind of Christ   obedience to what the Spirit is saying , Jesus/salvation  is all about sharing and serving everyone with the Fathers substance  of  TRUTH IN LOVE .
  the pigs /swines flesh is what eat   anything  and everything   went into the sea/dead  full of evil spirits ANGER, RAGE, VIOLENCE  , many peoples tongues and nations [ the Dead sea ] Where no love of God can be found  :sigh:
remember the  dragons flood of rage is what the earth swallowed up   to help the Woman / Church in the wilderness , where the waters are dried up  on barren land , till it is prepared of the Lord    for the sons of God /seed to be planted in the hearts of mankind .

  lots to learn God   be  willing  and permits   each one of us ......11In the day that you plant it you carefully fence it in, And in the morning you bring your seed to blossom; But the harvest will be a heap In a day of sickliness and incurable pain.

12Alas, the uproar of many peoples Who roar like the roaring of the seas, And the rumbling of nations Who rush on like the rumbling of mighty waters! 13The nations rumble on like the rumbling of many waters, But He will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like chaff in the mountains before the wind, Or like whirling dust before a gale....

Luke 21:25
"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Numbers 10:35
Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."

Psalm 18:4
The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.

Psalm 65:7
who stilled the roaring of the seas, the roaring of their waves, and the turmoil of the nations.

and the understanding a literal story/example /parables  with a spiritual meaning  are how we learn   what the Spirit is saying  in my own   faith believing

  and it is from The Lord Jesus Christ whom  gives the grace and truth  as a blessing to us  each and everyone individually  and serving one another with   what HE GIVES  sowing the seeds of Life in the hearts/minds   as God gives the increase  Light   waters of Life freely   and the cultivating and lopping off the  excess  branches  to bear more fruits of the SPIRIT OF LIFE    ..

[rosered]

LOL. Funny.

Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.

Is that you scob?

  By the SPIRIT   you shall know them ?

Proverbs 20:11
Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?

Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

[Lazarus Short]

I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic  effect of sin

I'll stand that on it's head:  How do we know that the foundation of eternal torture in Hell isn't a noetic effect of sin?

[GodIsLove]

I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic  effect of sin

I'll stand that on it's head:  How do we know that the foundation of eternal torture in Hell isn't a noetic effect of sin?

:thumbsup:

[ask21771]

LOL. Funny.

Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.

Is that you scob?

there are scriptures against universal salvation as well

[GodIsLove]

LOL. Funny.

Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.

Is that you scob?

there are scriptures against universal salvation as well

m

Ask, to argue that something is a noetic effect of sin, to me is a downward spiral that will eventually lead to "how to we know anything at all to be true."

We can believe minds are corrupted by sin (I'm sure even the secular world agrees---the more you are exposed to violence, the more desensitized you become, being one example). I don't follow your line of reasoning about how universal salvation can fit this category though.

[Seth]

http://www.theopedia.com/noetic-effects-of-sin is there a way to disprove this

It's odd to be asked to disprove it. That link doesn't prove anything to begin with. It just looks like an opinion about sin. Anyone can have an opinion. It's like saying, "Red is my favorite color, prove me wrong." In order to disprove it, I would need to see whether they are making a statement about a scriptural truth, using scriptural evidence to point to a doctrine, to see it rang true. If it didn't , then I would present scriptures as to why I think it's wrong.

I actually agree with others that it seems reasonable that sin has a corrupting affect on the mind. I also agree that if you think this disqualifies Universal Salvation, there is no reason it shouldn't disqualify the opposite as well.

[ask21771]

http://www.theopedia.com/noetic-effects-of-sin is there a way to disprove this

It's odd to be asked to disprove it. That link doesn't prove anything to begin with. It just looks like an opinion about sin. Anyone can have an opinion. It's like saying, "Red is my favorite color, prove me wrong." In order to disprove it, I would need to see whether they are making a statement about a scriptural truth, using scriptural evidence to point to a doctrine, to see it rang true. If it didn't , then I would present scriptures as to why I think it's wrong.

I actually agree with others that it seems reasonable that sin has a corrupting affect on the mind. I also agree that if you think this disqualifies Universal Salvation, there is no reason it shouldn't disqualify the opposite as well.

we believe hell is unjust but what if that's the noetic effect of sin talking

[Seth]

What if the doctrine of hell is the noetic effect of sin itself?

[ask21771]

why would it be