http://www.theopedia.com/noetic-effects-of-sin is there a way to disprove this
Greetings ask21771 ,
For me only at this time , the sin of Adam was spiritual immaturity , He was blaming the woman for eating of the tree and hiding this within himself
God gave Adam a direct command NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the DAY he ate of it death would enter into him
and instead of saying I was disobedient and brought harm in the garden of Life / Eden Gods pleasure , He hid himself from God because it was soon a reality he was naked before the Lord and open to error /evil
no longer under a protection of innocence or ignorance .
Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.
I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.
I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.
This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.
Just my thoughts.
The link did not work well for me - very hard to read. What does "noetic" refer to?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 17, 2016, 07:08:58 AM
The link did not work well for me - very hard to read. What does "noetic" refer to?
here ya go Laz ,,no·et·ic
nōˈetik/Submit
adjective
of or relating to mental activity or the intellect.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2016, 03:40:40 AM
Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.
I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.
I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.
This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.
Just my thoughts.
I agree in so many aspects Godislove with all you are saying,,
I just know when reading Genesis 1 they were perfect being spiritual only and One male&female as Adam ... and what God joined together no man can separate . just as we shall also return in the same manner .
it was not till God made them dust of the ground and made them a living soul by His breath and took the female outside of Adam and renaming it Eve do we come into the ''corruption '' in Gen 2 sure could have been Gods plan all along I reckon '
too me the serpent ''mind carnal '' nature was something the both shared from the dust of the earth , it is the serpent's food source [destruction of the flesh/adversity ]
I guess I should read all the links and not just the one and may learn something new , was way to busy yesterday , this is just thoughts from the Word of God /Bible :dsunny:
I always enjoy reading your thoughts :thumbsup:
we can always change our minds :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2016, 03:40:40 AM
Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.
I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.
I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.
This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.
Just my thoughts.
if sin corrupts the mind how do we know universal salvation is true
Quote from: ask21771 on April 17, 2016, 03:33:55 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2016, 03:40:40 AM
Hi!
So I looked at the link and it looks like it says basically that sin harms the mind. I think the statement is true.
I have a different view of the "fall" though, I don't believe it was a fall in the sense that Adam and Eve were perfect and then imperfect. They were created with no knowledge of good and evil and then the stage was set for them to eat the tree. God knew it would happen and orchestrated it to happen therefore logically I think he wanted it to happen.
I believe this exact story is playing out in all of our lives. We are eating from the tree of good and evil and learning about good and evil as a lesson.
This Adam and Eve story is the story of creation and we are being created. It is a process, not a one time event.
Just my thoughts.
if sin corrupts the mind how do we know universal salvation is true
I guess I believe in universal salvation because I believe God showed it to me.
I think sin corrupts the mind because I have seen evidence in my own life and the life of others.
Things like:
2 Thessalonians 2 (YLT) ...and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.
2 Corinthians 4 (YLT) ...in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;
Matthew 13: (YLT) FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
Titus 1:15: (NIV) To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
So if we can't trust our minds and thoughts and feelings, I believe this is referring to the carnal mind.
Ephesians 4:
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
20That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
So I believe that God puts a new mind, new heart, new attitude in us in our appointed times and this is what we can trust to be true.
Only then can we truly understand and believe in the amazing truth of God's unconditional love for all and the ultimate union of all with God.
This has need my own experience in my own life.
Hope this helps.
This is beautiful Godislove :HeartThrob:
Quoteif sin corrupts the mind how do we know universal salvation is true
I agree with her , to repent is the change the mind , for the carnal mind that is death ,being earthly sensual and devilish .
to the mind of Christ that is peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and the things above
Her is a simple verse that can be taken literally or spiritually , John 1 ;29 as the language or power of the'' tongue speaks '''of life or death , the tongue is an unruly little member of our bodies that no man can tame , only Christ can and He will !!...
Here is the verse Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the whole world
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
King James Bible
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Darby Bible Translation
On the morrow he sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
World English Bible
The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Young's Literal Translation
on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;
equivalent to 264
to be without a share in
to miss the mark
to err, be mistaken
to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many
The sin/error /work of Adam was disobedience , the work and power of the Lord Jesus Christ /Word of God / Lamb of God is obedience
the scripture Ecc 9; 18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good.
one sinner destroys much good , but one righteous [Christ] brings much good
so in Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made alive , but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. One is the body of death ,the other IS the Body of Life , as we all undergo this transformation .
This the UR thinking in my simple opinion , is what God is doing , He truly is reconciling the world to Himself though '' all things '', that was made by Him and for Him and though Him the very WORD OF LIFE BY THE SPIRIT OF LIFE .
what happens if you die before god renews your mind
Quote from: ask21771 on April 17, 2016, 09:19:22 PM
what happens if you die before god renews your mind
I think that is a great question ask21771!!!!
And there many ways to consider it , in my opinion the vastness of thoughts are impossible to ''peg '' but with God all things are possible .
what if many are dead already while they live in the earth to God ? I have certainly consider this
He is the God of the living after all .
I think the human flaw of just what death means and is described as literally a dead carcass after the breath of God has left the body and begins to rot right?
That seems to be the means to an end ,in the wide circles of human reasoning , but I dont think it is with God at all .
I say this because, in the
day Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he was dead ,
Yet he went on and lived another 930 years in the earth .
How can that be ?
I personally believe death is opposing the Spirit of life , like being born again of Spirit and water , the waters of life freely from above and not below
I have considered everything is held in Christ being the Lord of the dead and the living and they can rise in Christ each in their own order .
God is in control of everything even Christ the earth is His footstool[enemies ] and the heavens are His throne [ Living ]
It is how God will raise them up out of death and that is to His own glory, to me
I did not use all them scriptures , but a short answer , if you want some scriptures I would gladly add them to help
just sharing some of the living things and hope they help .
I am certainly no expert but there are a number of points of interest in this subject of The Noetic Effects of Sin, one of which is how a human being emotionally and psychologically filters information that they receive inwardly, whether this filtering is with or without a Christian theological application. There appear to be a number of different points of view among Christian writers.
While having the time to take a little look at a critical review article [by Dewey J. Hoitenga] of a book entitled: "The Noetic Effects of Sin" [by Steven K. Moroney, associate professor of theology at Malone Seminary], I came across some interesting social psychology research and its 'interdisciplinary Christian Theology application' on "thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought to think" in respect of others who are different...
...[social human beings] "attribute our successes mostly to our own effort and ability (internal factors), but we explain our failures as the result of a difficult task or impossible situation (external factors)"; whereas "we typically blame others' failures on their enduring personality traits" and do not "give enough weight to situational constraints on others' [bad] behavior. In plain language, when I fail, it is because I was in an impossible situation, but when others fail, it is because that is just the sort of people they are"...
"...In addition and of considerable importance, researchers find that these attribution errors are well nigh universal; they show up in widely different social groups: children and adults, athletes and students, ministers, and divorcees. The explanation seems to be, in the language of one researcher, that "our very 'cognitive-processing mechanisms impose filters on incoming information that distort it'" in favor of ourselves and in disfavor of others (91).45 Some cultural factors seem to affect the degree to which these errors are manifested, for example, conservatives vs. liberals, privileged vs. underprivileged groups, individualistic (Western) vs. collectivist (Eastern) societies, males vs. females, and even people with high self-esteem vs. those with low self-esteem (90-92). Nevertheless, these differences (which loom large in contemporary consciousness) do not substantially affect the main conclusion. This conclusion is that "in the attributions we make, we are truly self-deceived . . . [and that] social psychological research indicates that most humans suffer more from pride than from low self-esteem" (92).
But what does all this "cannot see the plank in one's own eye" behaviour indicate?
Well, a part it has to play is considered as follows...
According to Maroney, Christian theology must reject certain prevailing ideas such as:
1) The "...notion that self-serving cognitive distortions should [sometimes] actually be encouraged and cultivated"
2) "The mentally healthy person appears to have the enviable capacity to distort reality in a direction that enhances self-esteem, maintains beliefs in personal efficacy, and promotes an optimistic view of the future . . . [so that] certain types of self-serving illusions should actually be viewed as 'adaptive for mental health and well-being"
Maroney also states that "any self-serving cognitive distortion is inherently evil—a noetic effect of sin"
He then says: "social psychology provides a helpful diagnosis of our woes, but provides little in the way of cure", and goes on to provide some "prescriptions".
Christian theology offers it [social psychology] at least three kinds of "admonishments," each of which Moroney elaborates upon, with references to some relevant Scriptural texts, to show how they are the starting points on the way to the cure: We are "to be self-critical, open to criticism by others, and humble" (103).
Hoitenga then quotes Moroney: 'Finally, "Christian theology offers us a compelling motivation to strive for holiness in our thinking, to seek what might be called noetic sanctification" (104). Happily, Moroney spells out this motivation... as an aspiration working from within us, to respond to the prescriptions that come to us from without, for it actually consists of the indwelling of the mind of Christ himself and of his Spirit, the Spirit of undistorted truth. Only with a profound inner change of mind and heart under the impact of divine grace will any prescriptions against the noetic effects of sin really work.'
Personally, I am in agreement. I would also add that, in my limited experience, taking time to enter the inner Silence and listen to the God within, the timeless inner Being of which the real Self is constituted and of which consists the Kingdom of God – Spirit, neither going to the extreme of straining or the other extreme of blankness but the balance between – this facilitates the dropping away of the external falsities which the personality has built up. I find great peace in spending a timed half an hour like this. (Incidentally, this is not the gift of Prayer in my opinion but a type of meditation).
These are just a few thoughts.
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
I am not sure it should be disproved. As it was presented on the site it seemed pretty reasonable to me.
Seems to me "noetic effect of sin" depends somewhat on the nature of the sin. Some sins cause an immediate and substantial effect on the mind and the body. Some sins cause negative effects in the realm of familial affection and the ability to hold love in faithfulness and kindness.
As Paul said to Timothy, Some mens sins fo before them into judgment, some men's sins follow after.
I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic effect of sin
LOL. Funny.
Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.
Is that you scob?
Quote from: ask21771 on April 18, 2016, 03:57:11 AM
I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic effect of sin
You questions are easy enough to answer SCOOBY :laugh: the carnal mind is the noetic / mental illness and sin sickness unto death in my opinion , it is the ENEMY AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF LIFE ........
the WORD OF GOD has two edges
the letter of the law that kills , we have all the sword slingers and bible thumpers just bashing everyone with hell fire and brimstone , they are in fear themselves and feed off it and trap others with fear of hell and death the carnally minded
and the other is the Spirit of life itself the very teaching of Christ that anointing of the Holy Spirit that knows all things and the Father gives us whom ask being evil /carnal [earthly sensual and devilish ] . you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will the Father give good gifts , the Holy spirit to those whom ask Him ?
and of Course Jesus stating , '' Being careful how you hear'' .
The man in the tombs is a great example of the noetic effects mark 4 and Luke 8 , living in the tombs , being among the dead and cutting himself with stones being the law on two tables of stone and ministration of death [ stony heart that the Word of Gods seed/Love cannot penetrate ] sin sickness not unto death because Jesus did heal him and gave him a ''right mind '' mind of Christ obedience to what the Spirit is saying , Jesus/salvation is all about sharing and serving everyone with the Fathers substance of TRUTH IN LOVE .
the pigs /swines flesh is what eat anything and everything went into the sea/dead full of evil spirits ANGER, RAGE, VIOLENCE , many peoples tongues and nations [ the Dead sea ] Where no love of God can be found :sigh:
remember the dragons flood of rage is what the earth swallowed up to help the Woman / Church in the wilderness , where the waters are dried up on barren land , till it is prepared of the Lord for the sons of God /seed to be planted in the hearts of mankind .
lots to learn God be willing and permits each one of us ......11In the day that you plant it you carefully fence it in, And in the morning you bring your seed to blossom; But the harvest will be a heap
In a day of sickliness and incurable pain. 12
Alas, the uproar of many peoples Who roar like the roaring of the seas, And the rumbling of nations Who rush on like the rumbling of mighty waters! 13T
he nations rumble on like the rumbling of many waters, But He will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like chaff in the mountains before the wind, Or like whirling dust before a gale....
Luke 21:25
"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
Numbers 10:35
Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."
Psalm 18:4
The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.
Psalm 65:7
who stilled the roaring of the seas, the roaring of their waves, and the turmoil of the nations.
and the understanding a literal story/example /parables with a spiritual meaning are how we learn what the Spirit is saying in my own faith believing
and it is from The Lord Jesus Christ whom gives the grace and truth as a blessing to us each and everyone individually and serving one another with what HE GIVES sowing the seeds of Life in the hearts/minds as God gives the increase Light waters of Life freely and the cultivating and lopping off the excess branches to bear more fruits of the SPIRIT OF LIFE ..
Quote from: eaglesway on April 18, 2016, 05:14:20 AM
LOL. Funny.
Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.
Is that you scob?
By the SPIRIT you shall know them ?
Proverbs 20:11
Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?
Matthew 7:20
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Quote from: ask21771 on April 18, 2016, 03:57:11 AM
I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic effect of sin
I'll stand that on it's head: How do we know that the foundation of eternal torture in Hell isn't a noetic effect of sin?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 18, 2016, 01:53:48 PM
Quote from: ask21771 on April 18, 2016, 03:57:11 AM
I ask again how do we know that the foundation of universal salvation isn't a noetic effect of sin
I'll stand that on it's head: How do we know that the foundation of eternal torture in Hell isn't a noetic effect of sin?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 18, 2016, 05:14:20 AM
LOL. Funny.
Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.
Is that you scob?
there are scriptures against universal salvation as well
Quote from: ask21771 on April 18, 2016, 07:05:19 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 18, 2016, 05:14:20 AM
LOL. Funny.
Because the scriptures teach universal salvation.
Is that you scob?
there are scriptures against universal salvation as well
m
Ask, to argue that something is a noetic effect of sin, to me is a downward spiral that will eventually lead to "how to we know anything at all to be true."
We can believe minds are corrupted by sin (I'm sure even the secular world agrees---the more you are exposed to violence, the more desensitized you become, being one example). I don't follow your line of reasoning about how universal salvation can fit this category though.
Quote from: ask21771 on April 16, 2016, 07:23:35 PM
http://www.theopedia.com/noetic-effects-of-sin is there a way to disprove this
It's odd to be asked to disprove it. That link doesn't prove anything to begin with. It just looks like an opinion about sin. Anyone can have an opinion. It's like saying, "Red is my favorite color, prove me wrong." In order to disprove it, I would need to see whether they are making a statement about a scriptural truth, using scriptural evidence to point to a doctrine, to see it rang true. If it didn't , then I would present scriptures as to why I think it's wrong.
I actually agree with others that it seems reasonable that sin has a corrupting affect on the mind. I also agree that if you think this disqualifies Universal Salvation, there is no reason it shouldn't disqualify the opposite as well.
Quote from: Seth on April 19, 2016, 08:58:16 AM
Quote from: ask21771 on April 16, 2016, 07:23:35 PM
http://www.theopedia.com/noetic-effects-of-sin is there a way to disprove this
It's odd to be asked to disprove it. That link doesn't prove anything to begin with. It just looks like an opinion about sin. Anyone can have an opinion. It's like saying, "Red is my favorite color, prove me wrong." In order to disprove it, I would need to see whether they are making a statement about a scriptural truth, using scriptural evidence to point to a doctrine, to see it rang true. If it didn't , then I would present scriptures as to why I think it's wrong.
I actually agree with others that it seems reasonable that sin has a corrupting affect on the mind. I also agree that if you think this disqualifies Universal Salvation, there is no reason it shouldn't disqualify the opposite as well.
we believe hell is unjust but what if that's the noetic effect of sin talking
What if the doctrine of hell is the noetic effect of sin itself?
why would it be
It's a doctrine. Why wouldn't it be. Why do you favor the hell doctrine as certainly untainted but UR as possibly tainted?
Quote from: ask21771 on April 19, 2016, 05:45:24 PM
why would it be
What if we in our sinful state can't comprehend a God who is unconditionally loving and who wills all to be saved and who accomplishes His goal? We can't comprehend that Jesus said "Father forgive them they know not what they do" and really meant it. Jesus said to forgive our enemies and pray for those who persecute us but with ET God would do the opposite of what he commanded.
I could grab all the scriptures to support UR but I am short on time and if you browse this site they are posted throughout.
If you are implying that those who believe in UR do so because they want to continue sinning and think they will get a free pass, in my own experience this is far from the truth and those who believe in UR are instead devoted to God and growing closer to Him and following His will. It is mercy for others and hope and prayer and scripture and God's own revealing to us that leads us to believe in UR.
UR can be true but consequence of sin is real especially in the here and now.
I urge you to keep seeking and to browse the topics here and keep asking questions! :HeartThrob:
why would an all forgiving god kick adam and eve out of the garden
Forgiveness does not imply lack of discipline. I forgive my daughter the instant she does something wrong but I still have to discipline her or she won't understand.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 19, 2016, 06:02:57 PM
Quote from: ask21771 on April 19, 2016, 05:45:24 PM
why would it be
What if we in our sinful state can't comprehend a God who is unconditionally loving and who wills all to be saved and who accomplishes His goal? We can't comprehend that Jesus said "Father forgive them they know not what they do" and really meant it. Jesus said to forgive our enemies and pray for those who persecute us but with ET God would do the opposite of what he commanded.
I could grab all the scriptures to support UR but I am short on time and if you browse this site they are posted throughout.
If you are implying that those who believe in UR do so because they want to continue sinning and think they will get a free pass, in my own experience this is far from the truth and those who believe in UR are instead devoted to God and growing closer to Him and following His will. It is mercy for others and hope and prayer and scripture and God's own revealing to us that leads us to believe in UR.
UR can be true but consequence of sin is real especially in the here and now.
I urge you to keep seeking and to browse the topics here and keep asking questions! :HeartThrob:
Amen , let it be so Amen ,So let it be on earth as it is in heaven ! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ask21771 on April 18, 2016, 07:05:19 PM
there are scriptures against universal salvation as well
Yes, there are. However if we think of Eternal Torture and Universal Reconciliation as theories, I found in my survey of the KJV (every book, every chapter, every verse) that UR fits the data (biblical texts) far better than ET. If you're going to teach ET, you must ignore much - if you're going to teach UR, you need to ignore little, if any. :declare:
IMO there are no properly translated verses against UR unless they are taken out of context. Thats just me :o)
:iagree:
In my opinion, the theology which promotes the higher degree of Divine Love is more in tune with the GOD who is Love.
Personally, the test I use for all things biblical is: if it does not come up to the highest standard of Love, then the mind of man has played a part in it somewhere, either little or great. Where man has had his hand in something then man leaves an imprint of himself in some degree.
Many say that "GOD wrote the Bible" and that is fine for them because if everything is absolutely as it is written in a literal context then a favoured doctrine developed from this context which finds a reflex in the mind can be given great weight, thereby keeping the seeker close to GOD and away from sin and with the desire to further learn about and serve GOD – which means taking the active Christ to His children in need.
But, from my own perspective, that assumes that GOD's method was not to pass His message on through human mediators using the colour of their own individuality – a cursory look at the individual style of each instrument, whether prophet or disciple, should shout volumes as to the involvement of that instrument's own personality. And then there is also the human element to consider where someone receives inspiration in one form or another whether it be the Holy Spirit speaking through another human being or whether it be the impinging of thoughts directly into the mind – but that person then must pass on that message to a another group of people and the messenger will take the group consciousness into account, i.e, what is their culture, how best can they receive this message so that they can both understand it and not reject it as strange and un-God-like? So, yes, because Divine Spirit Power is in the pages of the Holy Volume it is inspired by GOD – GOD-breathed - and yet one must also account for the human element to gain truer perspective – in my opinion.
This does not mean that I think that the Spirit Power emanating from the pages of the Bible is in error. Not at all, no. There is Divine Spirit Power within every word, and Spirit Power cannot be in error. Every letter, because it is charged with Spirit Power it inspires the mind and something spiritual takes place, meaning that the mind receiving inspiration become altered in a degree, and many degrees can be equated with revelation. The Spirit Power that comes from GOD elevates a valueless letter into a conveyance or agency of Truth, of inspiration. There is another factor to consider and that is the sacredness that millions upon millions have given to the Bible and when those thoughts are pure in the divine sense, then the Bible is lifted up for all time. It is an interesting law of the Spirit in my opinion.
The Bible contains the whole Truth and yet I believe it does not contain all of the records that it might have done nor are they without human influence through which the Light has shone. I believe that having this perspective of the Bible and its compilation releases to the mind an even greater access to comprehending the Heart of Love.
As for Truth, I do not think that a human can know Truth in its completeness. Perhaps a human may have a greater understanding of Truth than another, but that understanding will still be very small in relation to the fullness of the Absolute, Mighty and Ineffable Being we attempt to encompass with the little word 'GOD'. I do not think that any words that attempt to define GOD will be The Truth but only pointers towards something far greater and as yet far beyond a human's limited comprehension.
Therefore, as far as the theologies most spoken about on this site are concerned, I give more weight to the more loving theology than the lesser one, although I personally do not believe it is complete, but a shell, an outline with blurred edges that must be redefined when the mists of the Earth's valleys clear and reveal more of GOD's Love.
If one literalises a vision, then in my opinion that Truth is being limited and GOD's love will be restricted - for instance when someone who religiously studies the Holy Book and thinks that they are better than the worst of sinners who passed out of this life without a state of repentance – 'better' and more entitled to their Divine inheritance because they follow every ritual described therein and therefore they have the right to sit at the top table with the Lord while those others are disinherited, may find that those sinners who have fallen the farthest and who have had the evil in their souls burnt out in a post mortem state – that these now repentant sinners have a deeper gratitude than the righteous religionist, and unbeknown to that religionist, the repentant sinner has been drawn closer to the Abode of the Lord than the religionist who is not only oblivious to what the Lord is doing. I believe that someone like Magdalen had a deeper love for Christ than most because of how far she knew she had fallen into sin, so I would take great care not to think of oneself 'better placed' in respect of those sinners who have not yet repented while the earthly body held them and must pass through the redemptive cleansing fires necessary for their own purification – for it is possible that even they emerge with something that even the saint cannot grasp.
The Love of GOD
cannot
cannot
cannot
be exaggerated.
Personally, it matters little to me if the Bible had a record not included or if there are yet scripts to be found in the earth that GOD means to be included, because the GOD of Love of whom I have learnt and been touched by, cannot be affected by the minds of men or their correct or incorrect theologies. However, given the two proposed doctrines, Universal Salvation is clearly the doctrine of choice for me over that of the everlasting hell dogma, although my personal understanding of Universal Salvation is different to the one laid down for this site. If one looks into the river and see the reflection of the trees and sky and birds flying about, all it is possible to see shimmering pale reflections of the beauties but the borders are fluctuating and undefined. This is how I see these doctrines. However, looking upward away from the river's reflection it is possible to see something closer to Reality. But that is just my opinion of the way I perceive things.
There is a message of infinite love and comfort for all who seek to follow the Master Christ which should transcend the doctrines of the mind of man: The one who seeks to raise himself above his physical self by denying himself, the one who shows an act of kindness to a stranger, the one who performs little acts of Service that bring benefits to one's fellow beings, the one not too caught up in worldly affairs to comfort and sympathise with another who is in sorrow, the little maid who prays for the broken flowers upon which she has just trodden...such as these, in my opinion, act for Christ and He not only will never forsake them but He will welcome them with open arms into the brightness, into the gladness, into that which shall never pass away.
I am certain that you should trust in your Christ, He is your Friend, your Guide – He comes first before the doctrines of the minds of men. It seems to me that 'The Christ Way', in its simplicity, is not only to remember one's obligations to each other, not only to remember one's obligations to humanity at large, but to allow the Christ within to be active, to allow the active Christ within to carry out every small detail of one's life. Then there is nothing to worry about doctrines, nothing to fear at all. The child is in Christ, Christ is in GOD, and GOD is in all.