White Horse

[marie glen]

For a while I thought the first horseman of the apocalypse, the rider on a white horse to be the gospel going forth conquering and to conquer.. all through the years of our Lord A.D., the latter age. I still believe this of the white horse and rider, but for a while now, I've thought there is a shadow rider, right along beside Him.. Mostly because so many think this first horse and rider/element of the age is a false gospel. I cannot be convinced it is not the victorious gospel.. but perhaps there is indeed a ghost rider.. (And not in the good sense of Holy Ghost!)

I'm researching a bit of history, trying to see if hell came into the church/faith through the gnostics ..the ones Paul warned against, etc, who thought salvation is via mystical "knowledge"/gnosis, for a select few I assume.. "puffed up by their vain thoughts". (Secrets, mysteries.. Whereas - Colossians 1:26-27 says "the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord's people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

I found out that gnosticism preceded Christianity and was "the esoteric teachings" of the various pagan religions, myths, etc. Attracted originally to the miracles and popularity of the early believers.. like Simon Magus was attracted to but w/o repentance.. which is turning out to be an interesting thread (to research and ponder, he was rather famous it seems)

And as far as those pagan systems went, we know the kings/priests used threatening afterlife to hold sway over the people.. And they had myths of winter involving the abode of the dead.. Scattered out from Babel Tower.. Egypt's punishing afterlife involved levels and also some fire.. We know the Greek myths (also) sprang from the Babylonian..

The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"

:dontknow: :dontknow: just some thoughts.. It keeps (persistently) bouncing around in my head that hell came into the faith through the gnostics.. :Peace2:

[rosered]

And as far as those pagan systems went, we know the kings/priests used threatening afterlife to hold sway over the people.. And they had myths of winter involving the abode of the dead.. Scattered out from Babel Tower.. Egypt's punishing afterlife involved levels and also some fire.. We know the Greek myths (also) sprang from the Babylonian..

The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"

:dontknow: :dontknow: just some thoughts.. It keeps (persistently) bouncing around in my head that hell came into the faith through the gnostics.. :Peace2:

  These are great thoughts sister Marie! 
And well worth thinking about  a bit deeper . and do enjoy your    sharing posts
and am in agreement      a strong truth in the gospel   being the error of  sin  is  pride .[Babylons sure  way of destruction ]

  we  know by scriptures that   knowlege puffs up / swells    like a leaven [ an influence   that spreads quickly ] and falls  when  shaken  ,  a loaf of bread   can collapse  if jarred  or left  in to much heat  falls  after it has  maxed in swelling [ the rising and falling of  pride   like  leaven  ]
But Love edifies  , this being the Love of the Father   as One    Jesus Christ  shows how  the love for all and gatherers , representing  the unleavened  bread   not the love of the world offering only loves its own and divides and  scatters   falls .



1John 2 5Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.      a taste  can bring a lusting desire  of something you cannot ''get out of your carnal  mind ''but crave constantly ''    the demonic influence   is earthly sensual and devilish    , we know that  satan/adversary  against the Spirit of Life ,  is all about the destruction of the flesh   by  the scriptures  stating this  truth .

as some  carnivorous animals  develop a ''taste for blood ''   roaming   as a lion seeking to devour  .
Proverbs 27:20
Death and Destruction are never satisfied, and neither are human eyes.      comparing these two  terms  as the same ,   by  a lusting desire for something ,   a below wisdom  and crafting   , practice  becoming good at it .

  But God made a beautiful and very simple way   to overcome   the world ,  our  ''gift of Life ''though the Lord Jesus Christ ,   over and over  it is  Gods love  that never fails  , His wrath is for a moment [ this life is fleeting and only a moment  to me ] but His love endures   forever

  The err  and mistake  is seeking the temporary things   of this life to me  , when the eternal things of God have no end .
  For me,  it is the above and below thinking   and  learning to discern  between the two   , mindful   of ,    the  first born ,carnal mind   and the born again mind of Christ .    What lives and what dies in the Lord .

    The first born son of Egypt [ old world ]and  the plague  of God   do we  believe   every word  that proceeds out of the mouth of God ? , or does man try to live by  bread alone  ?       Which  speaks volumes    of a truth .

This has been a  helpful  tool   the bible hub  , for quick scripture  reference  and  comparing  translations  , only  sharing   to help  us all  , and admit  I need  help from the Lord continually    as we all share what the Lord has given  and forgiven   us .     http://biblehub.com/exodus/11-5.htm
   I believe the knowledge of the Love of God  is what overcomes the world and all the pomp in it .. and He is called the Lord Jesus Christ  :HeartThrob:

[Ross]

The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"

Right on! The history of the church is actually shocking. Many deaths have been through religious wars. Much torture has been inflicted to try to "win" souls for God. The false prophets exceed the true.
Actual look at the churches doctrines highlights the attempts of the flesh to try to earn salvation. People claiming to have had visions, claiming to be prophets, have basically influenced religions extensively. The mention of the Babylonian system in revelations explains to me those differences. All about self-righteousness. All about personal effort. All distracting from the work of Christ.

Yet the statement;  " Before the world began I KNEW YOU'" is not talked about by those teachers.
2 Cor 10;12 " We do not dare compare ourselves with some of those who are recommending themselves. Rather when they measure themselves with themselves, and compare themselves by themselves THEY ARE WITHOUTUNDERSTANDING."

I recall many ministers who would talk about previous times of "revival". They would point out the need for repentance, and prayer, and then we would be blessed. All self-works. All based on man's dedication.

2 Cor 11;3 " But I am afraid, however, that just as the serpent devoured Eve by his craftiness, so your minds are led astray from the simplicity and purity that is in Christ."

2 Cor 11;14,15 " For Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no great surprise if his servants too disguise themselves as "servants of righteousness". Their end will be according to their works."

These seem remarkably like many of the leaders of churches through history.
That would be why Paul makes this statement;

2 Cor 12;9 " But He said to me, ' My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is fulfilled in weakness'.
                   Therefore, I will most gladly boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ may dwell in me."

I.M.O the White horse will expose all the rubbish and correct the provide the truth. The word divides the flesh from the spirit.

[marie glen]

Yep! The sWord divides all truth from error.. The tip of His sWord can separate a false thread out of a woven tapestry.. And all false threads from true..! It's all in His Word, not often from the mouths of men.. And history :eek: :faint: not a pretty story..

[eaglesway]

Just as another point of view- not to be disagreeable, but its just how I see it. The "history of the church" is not the story of Catholicism and how Lutheranism began, or Calvin or Athanasius. The history of the church is mostly hidden from view, and must be read between the lines, and understood through the record of those who were persecuted by the "church"- such as the Ana-baptists, such as when Rome burned out the Alexandrian library and forcefully subjected the churches there. The histories that are regarded by the institutional churches are mostly all the propaganda of the oppressors from their own points of view up until about the 15th and 16th centuries when the printing press and the records of witnesses began to be recorded in forms that could be preserved.

Thats the only way we know Calvin assented to the murder of his enemies. Its the only way we kno the excesses of Luther as he grew older and more powerful.

Otherwise, beyond the writings of Josephus and a few of the historians of Greece and secondary authorities there is very little first-hand history, so I try to understand the development of false doctrines forward from the scriptures.

Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.

My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.

People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.

The church is the ecclesia. The "called-out ones". Separated by God from men, but united by faith and love to one another. Sometimes in history, (imo for brief periods in every generation) in places where intercessors have prayed the Bride down out of the heavens, until their blood fell into the earth to sow the seeds of the next epiphany of Christ in the midst of His people.

In the beginning they were a body. The greatest were the servants of all. The heroes were martyred in places never know to us and times only recorded among the "cloud of witnesses". The all knew that Jesus died for all and that His Lordship would eventually extend over all by reconciliation.

Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves and the prophets were put out and the teachers were silenced and the apostles were excluded and murdered.

Once the teaching of the body(1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, Eph 4) and the priesthood of the believer fell the flood gates of deception were opened.The apostles taught that every believer is uniquely equipped thru the Spirit to edify the body in a spirit of service and love by which the greatest served the least in a cycle of love within a sphere of humility full of consciousness of the value of each one in whom Jesus Christ was Lord.

I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories.

[Dandelion]

Listen to Standing On the Shoulders by Palma Pascale on Apple Music.
https://itun.es/us/qupgq?i=270071216

Hope this works.

D.

[rosered]

   That was  awesome   John!!

 
and agree with the examples in the Word of God being the seed that remains  , Daniel and 4  young men ,   


whom stood in the cross  of truth against  powers in the kingdom of  Babylon   ,

these    4 were the GOD OF THE LIVING    , Just as Abraham Issac and Jacob .


By faith  they are saved    and those signs   for us to see  just how much God was with them   against all odds   and a nation that was serving a king and at the sound of a tinkle they bowed down  to worship an image    and not the true and Living God .


   Daniel in the lions den  [satan's mouth stopped ]     and the furnace of affliction  upon whose bodies the fire had no power  over , nor was an hair of their head singed!!!    Because God kept them   whole   and no scattering spirit would prevail    against the anointed ones  . 

We can see this throughout    as the Scribes, Pharisees     and hypocrites     feared the  loss of control  over  many peoples    tongues and nations  and their position of lordship  over the Truth , and honor of men over   the   True and living God ..       

God bless   everyone    on earth as it is in Heaven ,  that  the  kingdom  of heaven comes down   and surrounds  all His holy ones   with   the love of God protecting them as the seed  is planted  and ready to rise up  out of the earth  to His glory       ..

[micah7:9]

Just as another point of view- not to be disagreeable, but its just how I see it. The "history of the church" is not the story of Catholicism and how Lutheranism began, or Calvin or Athanasius. The history of the church is mostly hidden from view, and must be read between the lines, and understood through the record of those who were persecuted by the "church"- such as the Ana-baptists, such as when Rome burned out the Alexandrian library and forcefully subjected the churches there. The histories that are regarded by the institutional churches are mostly all the propaganda of the oppressors from their own points of view up until about the 15th and 16th centuries when the printing press and the records of witnesses began to be recorded in forms that could be preserved.

Thats the only way we know Calvin assented to the murder of his enemies. Its the only way we kno the excesses of Luther as he grew older and more powerful.

Otherwise, beyond the writings of Josephus and a few of the historians of Greece and secondary authorities there is very little first-hand history, so I try to understand the development of false doctrines forward from the scriptures.

Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.

My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.

People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.

The church is the ecclesia. The "called-out ones". Separated by God from men, but united by faith and love to one another. Sometimes in history, (imo for brief periods in every generation) in places where intercessors have prayed the Bride down out of the heavens, until their blood fell into the earth to sow the seeds of the next epiphany of Christ in the midst of His people.

In the beginning they were a body. The greatest were the servants of all. The heroes were martyred in places never know to us and times only recorded among the "cloud of witnesses". The all knew that Jesus died for all and that His Lordship would eventually extend over all by reconciliation.

Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves and the prophets were put out and the teachers were silenced and the apostles were excluded and murdered.

Once the teaching of the body(1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, Eph 4) and the priesthood of the believer fell the flood gates of deception were opened.The apostles taught that every believer is uniquely equipped thru the Spirit to edify the body in a spirit of service and love by which the greatest served the least in a cycle of love within a sphere of humility full of consciousness of the value of each one in whom Jesus Christ was Lord.

I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories.

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[darryl]

Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.

My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.

People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

that's right...these men arent truly 'heroes'...Origen is a true 'hero'...and Clement of Alexandria..and Gregory..these believed in UR..these are my 'heroes'

[marie glen]

The more I think about it lately, the more I think of the hell doctrine as (spiritually anyway) a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. It certainly is indeed a blasphemy against God...

No, it's not someone cursing God.. hating Him.. and thus speaking openly against Him.. But actually, is worse! imo, anyway.. for I believe it is the biggest or most common reason these days why people blaspheme and hate God.. Sure lots of people would say, it's just their sin and lower carnal nature that makes them against Him.. but though this is true and was of all of us at one time, the deep seated hatred some display, I believe is because of the false image of God the hell doctrine portrays and has been upheld in the world for a long time now..

The gnostics, I believe, were the ones Paul and Jude warned against who were mixing 'esoteric' type pagan ideas and religion/doctrines into the gospel, along with strict asceticism and/or license. (Christ, the Word, was not enough.) A part of paganism was the old system of king/priest/so-called offspring of 'the gods' rulers... And a punishing afterlife was a tool which was embraced and used to keep the people pliable to the rulers..

Much of the pagan became absorbed into Christianity. We've all heard about the holidays.. all true (but imo, not a case for accusation, dispute, etc). Also, the idea of inherent immortality. Instead of recognizing that life is in Jesus, and not in having an 'immortal soul'. "They who have Christ have life, those who don't do not have life." Yes, it was the adversary who said to Eve "surely.. you won't die..?!" But Yahweh said to Adam "to dust shall you return".. "In the day you eat of it you shall surely be dying.."

(I know the not yet saved are referred to as dead - they are on the path to death w/o the rescue yet implemented, but until they die they are still also alive.) It's the idea of an 'immortal soul' which finds 'hell' to be necessary... oh what to do with all those unrepentant sinners.. Praise JaH! He has better ideas!! They are sleeping in their graveyard beds awaiting that wake up call..

And we know when the Father Himself comes to "Tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth, He will be in all and "all in all" having made "all things new". ..Having "gathered all things in heaven and earth into Jesus"... the "firstborn and preeminent of all creation.."

As a generalization, there seems, to me (on theinternet) to be much more authoritarian spirit and more rudeness and obnoxious type speaking from those who believe the strongest in 'hell'... ( :dontknow: ?)

Of course there's also this, which I'm sure also affects believers - "When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood" - Ezekiel 3:18.

Only God can separate the motives I guess.. man judges by the outward, but He judges by the inward..

(There's also a lot of pretty wild stuff out there! :faint: The utter authority of God's Word has been undermined.. so in come myths and fables.. and strange ideas of humans.. :laughing7: Not so funny though, from what I have seen on video in some church services or preaching events.. have you ever seen voodoo dancing? people on their knees barking..) You know the more I think about it the idea of sitting around listening to one person teach and peach every week or twice a week, sounds dangerous of itself..

I thought I'd come around and post all my heretical thoughts this morning! :laughing7: Later!

[marie glen]

Just as another point of view- not to be disagreeable, but its just how I see it. The "history of the church" is not the story of Catholicism and how Lutheranism began, or Calvin or Athanasius. The history of the church is mostly hidden from view, and must be read between the lines, and understood through the record of those who were persecuted by the "church"- such as the Ana-baptists, such as when Rome burned out the Alexandrian library and forcefully subjected the churches there. The histories that are regarded by the institutional churches are mostly all the propaganda of the oppressors from their own points of view up until about the 15th and 16th centuries when the printing press and the records of witnesses began to be recorded in forms that could be preserved.

Thats the only way we know Calvin assented to the murder of his enemies. Its the only way we kno the excesses of Luther as he grew older and more powerful.

Otherwise, beyond the writings of Josephus and a few of the historians of Greece and secondary authorities there is very little first-hand history, so I try to understand the development of false doctrines forward from the scriptures.

Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.

My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.

People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.

The church is the ecclesia. The "called-out ones". Separated by God from men, but united by faith and love to one another. Sometimes in history, (imo for brief periods in every generation) in places where intercessors have prayed the Bride down out of the heavens, until their blood fell into the earth to sow the seeds of the next epiphany of Christ in the midst of His people.

In the beginning they were a body. The greatest were the servants of all. The heroes were martyred in places never know to us and times only recorded among the "cloud of witnesses". The all knew that Jesus died for all and that His Lordship would eventually extend over all by reconciliation.

Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves and the prophets were put out and the teachers were silenced and the apostles were excluded and murdered.

Once the teaching of the body(1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, Eph 4) and the priesthood of the believer fell the flood gates of deception were opened.The apostles taught that every believer is uniquely equipped thru the Spirit to edify the body in a spirit of service and love by which the greatest served the least in a cycle of love within a sphere of humility full of consciousness of the value of each one in whom Jesus Christ was Lord.

I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories.

Amen!! My church history is really very sketchy.. I expect to take it up in serious study one of these days.. In the meantime I like reading information about it! Including names.. :thumbsup:

Loved what you said about believers throughout the generations.. Quote - "people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened."

people I think of as having sincerely connected with Jesus.. even without doctrine, or with too much doctrine.. (we are so blessed to have the Word at our fingertips..)

And this I particularly agree with - 
"Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves.."

I heard, or read that is, that this was the thing called Nicolaitans.. special ones, more wise..  having more knowledge.. or so they thought. "Puffed up"! "which thing Jesus hates".. :Chinscratch:

Quote - "I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories."

    Amen! :iagree:  :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

   That was  awesome   John!!

 
and agree with the examples in the Word of God being the seed that remains  , Daniel and 4  young men ,   


whom stood in the cross  of truth against  powers in the kingdom of  Babylon   ,

these    4 were the GOD OF THE LIVING    , Just as Abraham Issac and Jacob .


By faith  they are saved    and those signs   for us to see  just how much God was with them   against all odds   and a nation that was serving a king and at the sound of a tinkle they bowed down  to worship an image    and not the true and Living God .


   Daniel in the lions den  [satan's mouth stopped ]     and the furnace of affliction  upon whose bodies the fire had no power  over , nor was an hair of their head singed!!!    Because God kept them   whole   and no scattering spirit would prevail    against the anointed ones  . 

Amen!! :thumbsup:

We can see this throughout    as the Scribes, Pharisees     and hypocrites     feared the  loss of control  over  many peoples    tongues and nations  and their position of lordship  over the Truth , and honor of men over   the   True and living God .. 

[/quote[

I think yes this is a very common motive in the human (lower, "missing the mark") carnal nature..

God bless   everyone    on earth as it is in Heaven ,  that  the  kingdom  of heaven comes down   and surrounds  all His holy ones   with   the love of God protecting them as the seed  is planted  and ready to rise up  out of the earth  to His glory       ..

         :dsunny: :dsunny: :thumbsup: :cloud9: (Amen!)

[rosered]

The more I think about it lately, the more I think of the hell doctrine as (spiritually anyway) a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. It certainly is indeed a blasphemy against God...

No, it's not someone cursing God.. hating Him.. and thus speaking openly against Him.. But actually, is worse! imo, anyway.. for I believe it is the biggest or most common reason these days why people blaspheme and hate God.. Sure lots of people would say, it's just their sin and lower carnal nature that makes them against Him.. but though this is true and was of all of us at one time, the deep seated hatred some display, I believe is because of the false image of God the hell doctrine portrays and has been upheld in the world for a long time now..

The gnostics, I believe, were the ones Paul and Jude warned against who were mixing 'esoteric' type pagan ideas and religion/doctrines into the gospel, along with strict asceticism and/or license. (Christ, the Word, was not enough.) A part of paganism was the old system of king/priest/so-called offspring of 'the gods' rulers... And a punishing afterlife was a tool which was embraced and used to keep the people pliable to the rulers..

Much of the pagan became absorbed into Christianity. We've all heard about the holidays.. all true (but imo, not a case for accusation, dispute, etc). Also, the idea of inherent immortality. Instead of recognizing that life is in Jesus, and not in having an 'immortal soul'. "They who have Christ have life, those who don't do not have life." Yes, it was the adversary who said to Eve "surely.. you won't die..?!" But Yahweh said to Adam "to dust shall you return".. "In the day you eat of it you shall surely be dying.."

(I know the not yet saved are referred to as dead - they are on the path to death w/o the rescue yet implemented, but until they die they are still also alive.) It's the idea of an 'immortal soul' which finds 'hell' to be necessary... oh what to do with all those unrepentant sinners.. Praise JaH! He has better ideas!! They are sleeping in their graveyard beds awaiting that wake up call..

And we know when the Father Himself comes to "Tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth, He will be in all and "all in all" having made "all things new". ..Having "gathered all things in heaven and earth into Jesus"... the "firstborn and preeminent of all creation.."

As a generalization, there seems, to me (on theinternet) to be much more authoritarian spirit and more rudeness and obnoxious type speaking from those who believe the strongest in 'hell'... ( :dontknow: ?)

Of course there's also this, which I'm sure also affects believers - "When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood" - Ezekiel 3:18.

Only God can separate the motives I guess.. man judges by the outward, but He judges by the inward..

(There's also a lot of pretty wild stuff out there! :faint: The utter authority of God's Word has been undermined.. so in come myths and fables.. and strange ideas of humans.. :laughing7: Not so funny though, from what I have seen on video in some church services or preaching events.. have you ever seen voodoo dancing? people on their knees barking..) You know the more I think about it the idea of sitting around listening to one person teach and peach every week or twice a week, sounds dangerous of itself..

I thought I'd come around and post all my heretical thoughts this morning! :laughing7: Later!

      Great thoughts Marie ! :dsunny:  so true and   have  thought of God in HIS mercy has judged everyone according to their works    , the hardness of hearts  and no seed can    be planted    this being the reason for plowing up   the ground ?    and  as the works of God  may be preformed though them .

I agree the confusion by mixing      gives clear   meaning to the name Babylon   and what is sown in Babylon   the fertile soil Arabic: بابل‎, Bābil) was a significant city in ancient Mesopotamia, in the fertile plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The city was built upon the Euphrates and divided in equal parts along its left and right banks, with steep embankments to contain the river's seasonal floods.

I have considered the Cross of Jesus Christ  and the work   to  tear down the strongholds of Babylon and    the works of satan ,    two things I have no doubt will be   brought to fruition   when the Lord   Jesus Christ reveals it  :HeartThrob:

   The spirit in a man and how he handles the WORD OF LIFE with his hands ?  1 John 1 ;1
1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes,

what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--


Job 38
7"I thought age should speak, And increased years should teach wisdom. 8"But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. 9"The abundant in years may not be wise, Nor may elders understand justice....

Genesis 41:38
So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?"

Job 12:13
"To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.

Job 27:3
as long as I have life within me, the breath of God in my nostrils,

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Job 38:36
Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?

Proverbs 2:6
For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Ecclesiastes 2:26
To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

Daniel 1:17
To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.

the inspiration

Job 4:12-21 Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and my ear received a little thereof...[faith comes by hearing what the Spirit of truth is saying ]

Job 33:16 Then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction,

Job 35:11 Who teaches us more than the beasts of the earth, and makes us wiser ...

Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts? or who has given understanding ...


...
1 Corinthians 2:10-12 But God has revealed them to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches ...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for ...

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all ...

  I do believe  God gives the increase   of all things   causing  growth by   His own   Spirit of  truth and grace     By the Word of   truth  , Our Lord Jesus Christ ...

[marie glen]

Amen! Great verses and thoughts Rose!

I also like how Eaglesway wrote in another thread -

Eaglesway in the thread u.r. affirmations -- "John the baptist says, "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

People read this as the wicked are the chaff and the righteous are the wheat, but each and every seed has wheat and chaff, the chaff being the hard outer covering of each and every grain. That chaff must be "broken" before the wheat can be gathered for milling into grain, and that is what the threshing floor was for- the chaff was beaten off the wheat, then it was blown off with fans, then the wheat was gathered, then the chaff was burned. The chaff does not burn forever. it burns until it is gone. The fire is "unquenchable" in that it will not stop burning the chaff until it is gone.

Life is the threshing floor. Any grains that leave this age/world with the chaff still intact, will enter whatever process exists in the world to come for the breaking and burning of the chaff-

I believe Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for the aionian chaff burning and separating light(wheat) from darkness(chaff), spirit(wheat) from carnality(chaff), life(wheat) from death(chaff).

Job 38:36
Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?

         :smile: ..great verses Rose!! :thumbsup: :gsmile:

[rosered]

Marie

And as far as those pagan systems went, we know the kings/priests used threatening afterlife to hold sway over the people.. And they had myths of winter involving the abode of the dead.. Scattered out from Babel Tower.. Egypt's punishing afterlife involved levels and also some fire.. We know the Greek myths (also) sprang from the Babylonian..

The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"

:dontknow: :dontknow: just some thoughts.. It keeps (persistently) bouncing around in my head that hell came into the faith through the gnostics.. :Peace2:

   Some  more thought  that come when reading this thread   Marie  :dsunny:
 
  Everything that opposes    Christ  , and what   the Lord Jesus Christ stands  for    the knowledge of God the wisdom of God , the Love of God  ,  also the obedience   to Gods desire
   Something  being made more clear   to me was those working against      Christ being antichrist spirits    the spirits of rebellion   and idols works of their hands   and how we become aware of them  , they are anti love   and  anti  over and against all that is called God

  These are the powers that take a hold of our flesh  and rule them      as   error .


   Eph 611Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

13Therefore, take up the full armor of God,

so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm....

  Now just what is this evil day ? 

  Could it be when the  evil man of sin is exposed  in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the  breath  of   the  Lord Jesus  Christ

[Ross]

Now just what is this evil day ? 
  Could it be when the  evil man of sin is exposed  in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the  breath  of   the  Lord Jesus  Christ

Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
  " Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.

[rosered]

Now just what is this evil day ? 
  Could it be when the  evil man of sin is exposed  in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the  breath  of   the  Lord Jesus  Christ

Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
  " Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.

  Thank you Ross ,

  His pride come before a fall   

It was decreed for Him , by  a court system in the heavens.

Nebuchadnezzar was told that the destruction of his power was a "matter by the decree of the watchers [i.e. Angels, the eyes of the Lord], and the demand by the word of the holy ones" (Dan. 4:17).


The Chaldee words translated "matter, "decree" and "demand" are all legal terms, implying a legal response, "a judicial decision" .

  Strong defines "the demand".     4 Haughty eyes and a proud heart— the unplowed field of the wicked—produce sin.

  He was  humbled   and  after praised God

[rosered]

King Nebuchadnezzar      was compared to a tree of knowledge of good  and evil   and the evil was   a product /fruit  of  pride of life   that err producing more err /sins  and causing other to sin, err  , rotten and corrupt  fruit  when aged   [Job 41]   and cut down  , but was left a stump  ,  with the root system still in the earth


Make the tree good and its fruits good or make the tree evil and its fruits  evil / corrupt  a tree is know by its fruits /works, end results


Same as Jesus saying  and warning ,  I would   rather you were  hot or cold   , lukewarm is considered   producing   both  good and evil   and unstable  ,  and fruitless  and  close to cursing  and needing to be dunged   and  watered   etc ,   to me this is suffering   and experiences  of    loss  and exercising  a mustering of faith  perhaps  , causing some type of  reaction   of one or the other      from within , learning   Gods righteousness  in the earth   our mortal bodies ..

   Judgements in the  earth     as suffering for  evil doing,   sifted   , shaken and   the fear of God  produced in you [faith ]  and for choosing the good  some     Saving grace , which I consider   Holy oil  smeared on  the crown , head  so the light  can shine  and we can see  what is going on   within you  and some fruit can come of it  down the road   for God  to His glory  , I do believe the fruit of the Spirit  is to the Glory of God in praise  to Him  in the earth as it is in heaven they already know  GOD IS GOOD ALWAYS .

  When I think of  the root  system  of Jesus Christ it is of Love  , being rooted and  grounded  in Him  already established  and  Firmly  bearing fruits of the Holy Spirit  ,  the fruit is the proof   of the tree of Life and to the Glory of God in the earth working  by love  being the  source  of  everything beautiful   and righteous  and Holy , pure   and not a corrupt thing in it

  The other opposing  root system  is of bitterness    that defiles  everything  and of the adversary  of opposing the Christ that stands for everything Holy , pure and complete in God

  Seems the minute you set your heart to do good evil is present  , because  evil is within us  also  ,  the tree of knowledge of good and evil  ,
Every last one of us are these trees   to start off  in  born of  the ability to   sin/ err   do wrong  and do good  being  the right thing , God orders the steps  , but the stumbling is in us  when walking in the Spirit and Life  of Christ

  You being evil know how to give good gifts to your children   how much more will the heavenly Father give the ''holy spirit ''good gifts '' to those who ask Him

God gives good gifts / holy spirit   to his children   and   His children  learn   obedience  by suffering   for  wrong doing  and   doing  the right  thing  also

  suffering  by being done wrong is  exactly what Jesus Christ put up with constantly   while being in the world but not of it  , being born again  is the tree of Life

  and we get to be  a tree of Life   , His[seed]   life dwelling within us  , by the Spirit &  truth  standing  up  , not lying down and wallowing in self pity    and uselessness   letting err rule your heart ...    the flesh is weak  , but the Spirit is strong  against the powers that be  in the earth, our bodies

King  Neb , learned a life saving lesson  , the fear of the Lord was the beginning of true wisdom  working in Him producing a seed of faith   for suffering  for not loving God  first and foremost     but loving the world being   the  pride of life   and a  foolish king of folly   . how  true this  meaning for us all to consider ?
1.
lack of good sense; foolishness.
"an act of sheer folly"
2.
a costly ornamental building with no practical purpose, especially a tower or mock-Gothic ruin built in a large garden or park

  1 John 2 5Do not love the world nor the things in the world.

If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

[Ross]

The fruit does indeed expose what the root system was based upon.
The vine, the vine dresser are explicit illustrations of the process in John 15.
Especially;
              " No branch can bear fruit by itself, it must remain in the vine."

Part of being the vine is  pruning out the dead stuff, and cutting back the excess growth. All this shapes the vine and makes the fruit much richer.
So this White horse would be like cutting back the dead works, the lying weeds, the fruitless branches, burning out the pests. All necessary for there to be a richer vine.
The illustrations in the bible are incredibly deep when being shown the spiritual significance.

[rosered]

The fruit does indeed expose what the root system was based upon.
The vine, the vine dresser are explicit illustrations of the process in John 15.
Especially;
              " No branch can bear fruit by itself, it must remain in the vine."

Part of being the vine is  pruning out the dead stuff, and cutting back the excess growth. All this shapes the vine and makes the fruit much richer.
So this White horse would be like cutting back the dead works, the lying weeds, the fruitless branches, burning out the pests. All necessary for there to be a richer vine.
The illustrations in the bible are incredibly deep when being shown the spiritual significance.

   Thanks Ross ,
     God bless you  ,  you are  so  right   the Word is   beautifully Spiritually significant

  I see the 4 horses are the 4 spirits of God  in Zech 6 =Rev 6   , and you are  right it does  hold true   to the works being done  as those eyes are roaming the earth  as judgments  are    in them 
  Each horse /spirit  holding a specific   task  at an appointed time   by the Lord of all    and Father of Spirits    working in all of us     

[marie glen]

Now just what is this evil day ? 
  Could it be when the  evil man of sin is exposed  in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the  breath  of   the  Lord Jesus  Christ

Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
  " Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.

"past correction as an example of the future one.. by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory.."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ..man's empire

"claiming to be God and actually in the temple"

...this "claiming to be God" always reminds me of man's current theory of evolution as the origins of life.. which declares man to be the higher/highest power (deciding good and evil for himself, aka, sitting in the temple? - God need not apply thank you very much, seems to be the mindset)

[rosered]

Now just what is this evil day ? 
  Could it be when the  evil man of sin is exposed  in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the  breath  of   the  Lord Jesus  Christ

Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
  " Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.

"past correction as an example of the future one.. by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory.."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ..man's empire

"claiming to be God and actually in the temple"

...this "claiming to be God" always reminds me of man's current theory of evolution as the origins of life.. which declares man to be the higher/highest power (deciding good and evil for himself, aka, sitting in the temple? - God need not apply thank you very much, seems to be the mindset)

  Thanks sis Marie ,
The thing it can be many different   layers of truth in these things ,
and the Lord give you a comfort in knowing ''of a truth''   , but this may not be for everyone  and for all times

  It is the Lord Himself who sets these things in motion by His Ow Spirit   in my  simple opinion.
  You so reminded me of the prayer     in scriptures  in Luke  18 when the man was praying to himself [ his own little god of his own world of self righteousness  ]   and the  confession of the sinner  asking the Living God for mercy

we learn  GODS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS  in the earth   not self righteousness  , that is a sure fail and fall  for sure .   the foolish heart  has no fear of God  in them   :mblush:      the fear of the Lord is the true beginning of wisdom  as the scriptures states . 

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves and were confident that they were righteous [posing outwardly as upright and in right standing with God], and who viewed others with contempt:

10 "Two men went up into the temple [enclosure] to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee stood [ostentatiously] and began praying to himself [in a self-righteous way, saying]:

'God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of men—swindlers, unjust (dishonest), adulterers—or even like this tax collector.

12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'

13 But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but was striking his chest [in humility and repentance], saying, 'God, be merciful and gracious to me, the [especially wicked] sinner [that I am]!'


14 I tell you, this man went to his home justified [forgiven of the guilt of sin and placed in right standing with God] rather than the other man;

for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself [forsaking self-righteous pride] will be exalted."

15 Now they were also bringing their babies to Him, so that He would touch and bless them, and when the disciples noticed it, they began reprimanding them.


16 But Jesus called them to Himself, saying [to the apostles], "Allow the children to come to Me, and do not forbid them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.


17 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God [with faith and humility] like a child will not enter it at all."

[marie glen]

Amen! I think it is the same story.. the same truth throughout all things.. every life, history as a whole.. every nation and tribe's story.. all the same truth demonstrated over and over in every facet of life.. And every one of us has to know and fully realize that we are the creature. He is God and we are His creations.. In the scheme of things, that makes us, each one, not all that pivotal! I'd say not that important, but we are important.. to Him!

Yet another paradox!

What a glorious thing He is making! ..all of us, spiritually like children.. so many.. all, since the beginning - He is alpha, and, omega, and all in between.. jewels.. each one unique.. but with so much in common.. What He is creating reflects His glory..

Thanks sister Rose! :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[rosered]

Amen! I think it is the same story.. the same truth throughout all things.. every life, history as a whole.. every nation and tribe's story.. all the same truth demonstrated over and over in every facet of life.. And every one of us has to know and fully realize that we are the creature. He is God and we are His creations.. In the scheme of things, that makes us, each one, not all that pivotal! I'd say not that important, but we are important.. to Him!

Yet another paradox!

What a glorious thing He is making! ..all of us, spiritually like children.. so many.. all, since the beginning - He is alpha, and, omega, and all in between.. jewels.. each one unique.. but with so much in common.. What He is creating reflects His glory..

Thanks sister Rose! :thumbsup: :dsunny:

Amen sista Marie ,
  Can we actually see JESUS CHRIST in'' all things'' ?
  This can certainly  change our perspective , how we see and  view  of how we feel and   understand , think completely   differently ...

  If the WHOLE   MASSIVE THING IS  HELD   BY   JESUS CHRIST ,  He is so much more than just a man who walked the earth over 2000  years ago
But is breathing in and out   in all the heavens and  earth now in every creature and thing  ever made ,  this  precious LIFE  is    GODS SPIRIT and HIS   glory and is the Truth      , as it always was and is and will be  so , It is all HIM , LOVE  cannot be contained , but is connected to everything  . WOW !!   :banana: :banana: :banana:

[marie glen]

Amen! sister Rose, "God is love".. therefor love will be the ruling force.. "all in all"! - this life is His tool.. the pen? with which He is "writing His law on our hearts" - on every heart! He wrote His law on stone tablets (needed for stone hearts) with His very finger.. He is writing His law, love, on every heart (with His very finger?).. for "love fulfills the law" and "love works no ill"...

"..the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow.." Isaiah 11:7
                    :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: