For a while I thought the first horseman of the apocalypse, the rider on a white horse to be the gospel going forth conquering and to conquer.. all through the years of our Lord A.D., the latter age. I still believe this of the white horse and rider, but for a while now, I've thought there is a shadow rider, right along beside Him.. Mostly because so many think this first horse and rider/element of the age is a false gospel. I cannot be convinced it is not the victorious gospel.. but perhaps there is indeed a ghost rider.. (And not in the good sense of Holy Ghost!)
I'm researching a bit of history, trying to see if hell came into the church/faith through the gnostics ..the ones Paul warned against, etc, who thought salvation is via mystical "knowledge"/gnosis, for a select few I assume.. "puffed up by their vain thoughts". (Secrets, mysteries.. Whereas - Colossians 1:26-27 says "the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord's people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
I found out that gnosticism preceded Christianity and was "the esoteric teachings" of the various pagan religions, myths, etc. Attracted originally to the miracles and popularity of the early believers.. like Simon Magus was attracted to but w/o repentance.. which is turning out to be an interesting thread (to research and ponder, he was rather famous it seems)
And as far as those pagan systems went, we know the kings/priests used threatening afterlife to hold sway over the people.. And they had myths of winter involving the abode of the dead.. Scattered out from Babel Tower.. Egypt's punishing afterlife involved levels and also some fire.. We know the Greek myths (also) sprang from the Babylonian..
The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"
:dontknow: :dontknow: just some thoughts.. It keeps (persistently) bouncing around in my head that hell came into the faith through the gnostics.. :Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2016, 05:46:55 AM
And as far as those pagan systems went, we know the kings/priests used threatening afterlife to hold sway over the people.. And they had myths of winter involving the abode of the dead.. Scattered out from Babel Tower.. Egypt's punishing afterlife involved levels and also some fire.. We know the Greek myths (also) sprang from the Babylonian..
The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"
:dontknow: :dontknow: just some thoughts.. It keeps (persistently) bouncing around in my head that hell came into the faith through the gnostics.. :Peace2:
These are great thoughts sister Marie!
And well worth thinking about a bit deeper . and do enjoy your sharing posts
and am in agreement a strong truth in the gospel being the error of sin is pride .[Babylons sure way of destruction ]
we know by scriptures that knowlege puffs up / swells like a leaven [ an influence that spreads quickly ] and falls when shaken , a loaf of bread can collapse if jarred or left in to much heat falls after it has maxed in swelling [ the rising and falling of pride like leaven ]
But Love edifies , this being the Love of the Father as One Jesus Christ shows how the love for all and gatherers , representing the unleavened bread not the love of the world offering only loves its own and divides and scatters falls .
1John 2 5Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world,
the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and
the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The
world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also
desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. a taste can bring a lusting desire of something you cannot ''get out of your carnal mind ''but crave constantly '' the demonic influence is earthly sensual and devilish , we know that satan/adversary against the Spirit of Life , is all about the destruction of the flesh by the scriptures stating this truth .
as some carnivorous animals develop a ''taste for blood '' roaming as a lion seeking to devour .
Proverbs 27:20
Death and Destruction
are never satisfied, and neither are human eyes. comparing these two terms as the same , by a lusting desire for something , a below wisdom and crafting , practice becoming good at it .
But God made a beautiful and very simple way to overcome the world , our ''gift of Life ''though the Lord Jesus Christ , over and over it is Gods love that never fails , His wrath is for a moment [ this life is fleeting and only a moment to me ] but His love endures forever
The err and mistake is seeking the temporary things of this life to me , when the eternal things of God have no end .
For me, it is the above and below thinking and learning to discern between the two , mindful of , the first born ,carnal mind and the born again mind of Christ . What lives and what dies in the Lord .
The first born son of Egypt [ old world ]and the plague of God do we believe every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ? , or does man try to live by bread alone ? Which speaks volumes of a truth .
This has been a helpful tool the bible hub , for quick scripture reference and comparing translations , only sharing to help us all , and admit I need help from the Lord continually as we all share what the Lord has given and forgiven us . http://biblehub.com/exodus/11-5.htm (http://biblehub.com/exodus/11-5.htm)
I believe the knowledge of the Love of God is what overcomes the world and all the pomp in it .. and He is called the Lord Jesus Christ :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2016, 05:46:55 AM
The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"
Right on! The history of the church is actually shocking. Many deaths have been through religious wars. Much torture has been inflicted to try to "win" souls for God. The false prophets exceed the true.
Actual look at the churches doctrines highlights the attempts of the flesh to try to earn salvation. People claiming to have had visions, claiming to be prophets, have basically influenced religions extensively. The mention of the Babylonian system in revelations explains to me those differences. All about self-righteousness. All about personal effort. All distracting from the work of Christ.
Yet the statement; " Before the world began I KNEW YOU'" is not talked about by those teachers.
2 Cor 10;12 " We do not dare compare ourselves with some of those who are recommending themselves. Rather when they measure themselves with themselves, and compare themselves by themselves THEY ARE WITHOUTUNDERSTANDING."
I recall many ministers who would talk about previous times of "revival". They would point out the need for repentance, and prayer, and then we would be blessed. All self-works. All based on man's dedication.
2 Cor 11;3 " But I am afraid, however, that just as the serpent devoured Eve by his craftiness, so your minds are led astray from the simplicity and purity that is in Christ."
2 Cor 11;14,15 " For Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no great surprise if his servants too disguise themselves as "servants of righteousness". Their end will be according to their works."
These seem remarkably like many of the leaders of churches through history.
That would be why Paul makes this statement;
2 Cor 12;9 " But He said to me, ' My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is fulfilled in weakness'.
Therefore, I will most gladly boast in my weaknesses in order that the power of Christ may dwell in me."
I.M.O the White horse will expose all the rubbish and correct the provide the truth. The word divides the flesh from the spirit.
Yep! The sWord divides all truth from error.. The tip of His sWord can separate a false thread out of a woven tapestry.. And all false threads from true..! It's all in His Word, not often from the mouths of men.. And history :eek: :faint: not a pretty story..
Just as another point of view- not to be disagreeable, but its just how I see it. The "history of the church" is not the story of Catholicism and how Lutheranism began, or Calvin or Athanasius. The history of the church is mostly hidden from view, and must be read between the lines, and understood through the record of those who were persecuted by the "church"- such as the Ana-baptists, such as when Rome burned out the Alexandrian library and forcefully subjected the churches there. The histories that are regarded by the institutional churches are mostly all the propaganda of the oppressors from their own points of view up until about the 15th and 16th centuries when the printing press and the records of witnesses began to be recorded in forms that could be preserved.
Thats the only way we know Calvin assented to the murder of his enemies. Its the only way we kno the excesses of Luther as he grew older and more powerful.
Otherwise, beyond the writings of Josephus and a few of the historians of Greece and secondary authorities there is very little first-hand history, so I try to understand the development of false doctrines forward from the scriptures.
Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.
My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.
People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.
The church is the ecclesia. The "called-out ones". Separated by God from men, but united by faith and love to one another. Sometimes in history, (imo for brief periods in every generation) in places where intercessors have prayed the Bride down out of the heavens, until their blood fell into the earth to sow the seeds of the next epiphany of Christ in the midst of His people.
In the beginning they were a body. The greatest were the servants of all. The heroes were martyred in places never know to us and times only recorded among the "cloud of witnesses". The all knew that Jesus died for all and that His Lordship would eventually extend over all by reconciliation.
Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves and the prophets were put out and the teachers were silenced and the apostles were excluded and murdered.
Once the teaching of the body(1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, Eph 4) and the priesthood of the believer fell the flood gates of deception were opened.The apostles taught that every believer is uniquely equipped thru the Spirit to edify the body in a spirit of service and love by which the greatest served the least in a cycle of love within a sphere of humility full of consciousness of the value of each one in whom Jesus Christ was Lord.
I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories.
Listen to Standing On the Shoulders by Palma Pascale on Apple Music.
https://itun.es/us/qupgq?i=270071216
Hope this works.
D.
That was awesome John!!
and agree with the examples in the Word of God being the seed that remains , Daniel and 4 young men ,
whom stood in the cross of truth against powers in the kingdom of Babylon ,
these 4 were the GOD OF THE LIVING , Just as Abraham Issac and Jacob .
By faith they are saved and those signs for us to see just how much God was with them against all odds and a nation that was serving a king and at the sound of a tinkle they bowed down to worship an image and not the true and Living God .
Daniel in the lions den [satan's mouth stopped ] and the furnace of affliction upon whose bodies the fire had no power over , nor was an hair of their head singed!!! Because God kept them whole and no scattering spirit would prevail against the anointed ones .
We can see this throughout as the Scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites feared the loss of control over many peoples tongues and nations and their position of lordship over the Truth , and honor of men over the True and living God ..
God bless everyone on earth as it is in Heaven , that the kingdom of heaven comes down and surrounds all His holy ones with the love of God protecting them as the seed is planted and ready to rise up out of the earth to His glory ..
Quote from: eaglesway on March 20, 2016, 06:12:36 AM
Just as another point of view- not to be disagreeable, but its just how I see it. The "history of the church" is not the story of Catholicism and how Lutheranism began, or Calvin or Athanasius. The history of the church is mostly hidden from view, and must be read between the lines, and understood through the record of those who were persecuted by the "church"- such as the Ana-baptists, such as when Rome burned out the Alexandrian library and forcefully subjected the churches there. The histories that are regarded by the institutional churches are mostly all the propaganda of the oppressors from their own points of view up until about the 15th and 16th centuries when the printing press and the records of witnesses began to be recorded in forms that could be preserved.
Thats the only way we know Calvin assented to the murder of his enemies. Its the only way we kno the excesses of Luther as he grew older and more powerful.
Otherwise, beyond the writings of Josephus and a few of the historians of Greece and secondary authorities there is very little first-hand history, so I try to understand the development of false doctrines forward from the scriptures.
Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.
My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.
People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.
The church is the ecclesia. The "called-out ones". Separated by God from men, but united by faith and love to one another. Sometimes in history, (imo for brief periods in every generation) in places where intercessors have prayed the Bride down out of the heavens, until their blood fell into the earth to sow the seeds of the next epiphany of Christ in the midst of His people.
In the beginning they were a body. The greatest were the servants of all. The heroes were martyred in places never know to us and times only recorded among the "cloud of witnesses". The all knew that Jesus died for all and that His Lordship would eventually extend over all by reconciliation.
Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves and the prophets were put out and the teachers were silenced and the apostles were excluded and murdered.
Once the teaching of the body(1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, Eph 4) and the priesthood of the believer fell the flood gates of deception were opened.The apostles taught that every believer is uniquely equipped thru the Spirit to edify the body in a spirit of service and love by which the greatest served the least in a cycle of love within a sphere of humility full of consciousness of the value of each one in whom Jesus Christ was Lord.
I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 20, 2016, 06:39:47 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 20, 2016, 06:12:36 AM
Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.
My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.
People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
that's right...these men arent truly 'heroes'...Origen is a true 'hero'...and Clement of Alexandria..and Gregory..these believed in UR..these are my 'heroes'
The more I think about it lately, the more I think of the hell doctrine as (spiritually anyway) a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. It certainly is indeed a blasphemy against God...
No, it's not someone cursing God.. hating Him.. and thus speaking openly against Him.. But actually, is worse! imo, anyway.. for I believe it is the biggest or most common reason these days why people blaspheme and hate God.. Sure lots of people would say, it's just their sin and lower carnal nature that makes them against Him.. but though this is true and was of all of us at one time, the deep seated hatred some display, I believe is because of the false image of God the hell doctrine portrays and has been upheld in the world for a long time now..
The gnostics, I believe, were the ones Paul and Jude warned against who were mixing 'esoteric' type pagan ideas and religion/doctrines into the gospel, along with strict asceticism and/or license. (Christ, the Word, was not enough.) A part of paganism was the old system of king/priest/so-called offspring of 'the gods' rulers... And a punishing afterlife was a tool which was embraced and used to keep the people pliable to the rulers..
Much of the pagan became absorbed into Christianity. We've all heard about the holidays.. all true (but imo, not a case for accusation, dispute, etc). Also, the idea of inherent immortality. Instead of recognizing that life is in Jesus, and not in having an 'immortal soul'. "They who have Christ have life, those who don't do not have life." Yes, it was the adversary who said to Eve "surely.. you won't die..?!" But Yahweh said to Adam "to dust shall you return".. "In the day you eat of it you shall surely be dying.."
(I know the not yet saved are referred to as dead - they are on the path to death w/o the rescue yet implemented, but until they die they are still also alive.) It's the idea of an 'immortal soul' which finds 'hell' to be necessary... oh what to do with all those unrepentant sinners.. Praise JaH! He has better ideas!! They are sleeping in their graveyard beds awaiting that wake up call..
And we know when the Father Himself comes to "Tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth, He will be in all and "all in all" having made "all things new". ..Having "gathered all things in heaven and earth into Jesus"... the "firstborn and preeminent of all creation.."
As a generalization, there seems, to me (on theinternet) to be much more authoritarian spirit and more rudeness and obnoxious type speaking from those who believe the strongest in 'hell'... ( :dontknow: ?)
Of course there's also this, which I'm sure also affects believers - "When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood" - Ezekiel 3:18.
Only God can separate the motives I guess.. man judges by the outward, but He judges by the inward..
(There's also a lot of pretty wild stuff out there! :faint: The utter authority of God's Word has been undermined.. so in come myths and fables.. and strange ideas of humans.. :laughing7: Not so funny though, from what I have seen on video in some church services or preaching events.. have you ever seen voodoo dancing? people on their knees barking..) You know the more I think about it the idea of sitting around listening to one person teach and peach every week or twice a week, sounds dangerous of itself..
I thought I'd come around and post all my heretical thoughts this morning! :laughing7: Later!
Quote from: eaglesway on March 20, 2016, 06:12:36 AM
Just as another point of view- not to be disagreeable, but its just how I see it. The "history of the church" is not the story of Catholicism and how Lutheranism began, or Calvin or Athanasius. The history of the church is mostly hidden from view, and must be read between the lines, and understood through the record of those who were persecuted by the "church"- such as the Ana-baptists, such as when Rome burned out the Alexandrian library and forcefully subjected the churches there. The histories that are regarded by the institutional churches are mostly all the propaganda of the oppressors from their own points of view up until about the 15th and 16th centuries when the printing press and the records of witnesses began to be recorded in forms that could be preserved.
Thats the only way we know Calvin assented to the murder of his enemies. Its the only way we kno the excesses of Luther as he grew older and more powerful.
Otherwise, beyond the writings of Josephus and a few of the historians of Greece and secondary authorities there is very little first-hand history, so I try to understand the development of false doctrines forward from the scriptures.
Most of the "heroes" of institutional Christianity like Augustine, Knox, Calvin, Luther are not really heroes to me. They are the ones who wrote their own histories after they achieved power in governments and world renown and fear among men subject to their wrath.
My heroes are the the people who were crushed between the conflicts between these men of power. The people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened.
People who dared to stand apart from the principalities and the powers. People who refused to choose sides and remained faithful only to Christ, and were killed by both sides in all those struggles that historians ignored in small towns or in the dark corners of European cities.
The church is the ecclesia. The "called-out ones". Separated by God from men, but united by faith and love to one another. Sometimes in history, (imo for brief periods in every generation) in places where intercessors have prayed the Bride down out of the heavens, until their blood fell into the earth to sow the seeds of the next epiphany of Christ in the midst of His people.
In the beginning they were a body. The greatest were the servants of all. The heroes were martyred in places never know to us and times only recorded among the "cloud of witnesses". The all knew that Jesus died for all and that His Lordship would eventually extend over all by reconciliation.
Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves and the prophets were put out and the teachers were silenced and the apostles were excluded and murdered.
Once the teaching of the body(1 Cor 12-14, Romans 12, Eph 4) and the priesthood of the believer fell the flood gates of deception were opened.The apostles taught that every believer is uniquely equipped thru the Spirit to edify the body in a spirit of service and love by which the greatest served the least in a cycle of love within a sphere of humility full of consciousness of the value of each one in whom Jesus Christ was Lord.
I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories.
Amen!! My church history is really very sketchy.. I expect to take it up in serious study one of these days.. In the meantime I like reading information about it! Including names.. :thumbsup:
Loved what you said about believers throughout the generations.. Quote -
"people we will never hear of until we awaken and the books are opened."people I think of as having sincerely connected with Jesus.. even without doctrine, or with too much doctrine.. (we are so blessed to have the Word at our fingertips..)
And this I particularly agree with -
"Personally, I think the foundation doctrine of the "priesthood of the believer" and the body made of members fell before the salvation of all did. The clergy laity deception was the first major corruption that opened the door for all the others. When the leaders became separated from the body by a division based in arrogance the shepherds became wolves.."I heard, or read that is, that this was the thing called Nicolaitans.. special ones, more wise.. having more knowledge.. or so they thought. "Puffed up"! "which thing Jesus hates".. :Chinscratch:
Quote -
"I believe all of this history can be found in seed form within the scriptures and read forward into the clues we have from misty histories." Amen! :iagree: :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
That was awesome John!!
and agree with the examples in the Word of God being the seed that remains , Daniel and 4 young men ,
whom stood in the cross of truth against powers in the kingdom of Babylon ,
these 4 were the GOD OF THE LIVING , Just as Abraham Issac and Jacob .
By faith they are saved and those signs for us to see just how much God was with them against all odds and a nation that was serving a king and at the sound of a tinkle they bowed down to worship an image and not the true and Living God .
Daniel in the lions den [satan's mouth stopped ] and the furnace of affliction upon whose bodies the fire had no power over , nor was an hair of their head singed!!! Because God kept them whole and no scattering spirit would prevail against the anointed ones .
Amen!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
We can see this throughout as the Scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites feared the loss of control over many peoples tongues and nations and their position of lordship over the Truth , and honor of men over the True and living God ..
[/quote[
I think yes this is a very common motive in the human (lower, "missing the mark") carnal nature..
Quote from: rosered on March 20, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
God bless everyone on earth as it is in Heaven , that the kingdom of heaven comes down and surrounds all His holy ones with the love of God protecting them as the seed is planted and ready to rise up out of the earth to His glory ..
:dsunny: :dsunny: :thumbsup: :cloud9: (Amen!)
Quote from: marie glen on March 21, 2016, 06:45:48 PM
The more I think about it lately, the more I think of the hell doctrine as (spiritually anyway) a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. It certainly is indeed a blasphemy against God...
No, it's not someone cursing God.. hating Him.. and thus speaking openly against Him.. But actually, is worse! imo, anyway.. for I believe it is the biggest or most common reason these days why people blaspheme and hate God.. Sure lots of people would say, it's just their sin and lower carnal nature that makes them against Him.. but though this is true and was of all of us at one time, the deep seated hatred some display, I believe is because of the false image of God the hell doctrine portrays and has been upheld in the world for a long time now..
The gnostics, I believe, were the ones Paul and Jude warned against who were mixing 'esoteric' type pagan ideas and religion/doctrines into the gospel, along with strict asceticism and/or license. (Christ, the Word, was not enough.) A part of paganism was the old system of king/priest/so-called offspring of 'the gods' rulers... And a punishing afterlife was a tool which was embraced and used to keep the people pliable to the rulers..
Much of the pagan became absorbed into Christianity. We've all heard about the holidays.. all true (but imo, not a case for accusation, dispute, etc). Also, the idea of inherent immortality. Instead of recognizing that life is in Jesus, and not in having an 'immortal soul'. "They who have Christ have life, those who don't do not have life." Yes, it was the adversary who said to Eve "surely.. you won't die..?!" But Yahweh said to Adam "to dust shall you return".. "In the day you eat of it you shall surely be dying.."
(I know the not yet saved are referred to as dead - they are on the path to death w/o the rescue yet implemented, but until they die they are still also alive.) It's the idea of an 'immortal soul' which finds 'hell' to be necessary... oh what to do with all those unrepentant sinners.. Praise JaH! He has better ideas!! They are sleeping in their graveyard beds awaiting that wake up call..
And we know when the Father Himself comes to "Tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth, He will be in all and "all in all" having made "all things new". ..Having "gathered all things in heaven and earth into Jesus"... the "firstborn and preeminent of all creation.."
As a generalization, there seems, to me (on theinternet) to be much more authoritarian spirit and more rudeness and obnoxious type speaking from those who believe the strongest in 'hell'... ( :dontknow: ?)
Of course there's also this, which I'm sure also affects believers - "When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood" - Ezekiel 3:18.
Only God can separate the motives I guess.. man judges by the outward, but He judges by the inward..
(There's also a lot of pretty wild stuff out there! :faint: The utter authority of God's Word has been undermined.. so in come myths and fables.. and strange ideas of humans.. :laughing7: Not so funny though, from what I have seen on video in some church services or preaching events.. have you ever seen voodoo dancing? people on their knees barking..) You know the more I think about it the idea of sitting around listening to one person teach and peach every week or twice a week, sounds dangerous of itself..
I thought I'd come around and post all my heretical thoughts this morning! :laughing7: Later!
Great thoughts Marie ! :dsunny: so true and have thought of God in HIS mercy has judged everyone according to their works , the hardness of hearts and no seed can be planted this being the reason for plowing up the ground ? and as the works of God may be preformed though them .
I agree the confusion by mixing gives clear meaning to the name Babylon and what is sown in Babylon the fertile soil Arabic: بابل, Bābil) was a significant city in ancient Mesopotamia, in the fertile plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The city was built upon the Euphrates and divided in equal parts along its left and right banks, with steep embankments to
contain the river's seasonal floods. I have considered the Cross of Jesus Christ and the work to tear down the strongholds of Babylon and the works of satan , two things I have no doubt will be brought to fruition when the Lord Jesus Christ reveals it :HeartThrob:
The spirit in a man and how he handles the WORD OF LIFE with his hands ? 1 John 1 ;1
1What was from
the beginning, what we have
heard, what we have
seen with our eyes,
what we have looked at and
touched with our hands, c
oncerning the Word of Life--
2and
the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
Job 38
7"I thought age should speak, And increased years should teach wisdom. 8"But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. 9"T
he abundant in years may not be wise, Nor may elders understand justice....
Genesis 41:38
So Pharaoh asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man,
one in whom is the spirit of God?"Job 12:13
"To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are his.
Job 27:3
as long as I have life within me, the breath of God in my nostrils,
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 38:36
Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?
Proverbs 2:6
For the
LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Ecclesiastes 2:26
To the person who pleases him,
God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.Daniel 1:17
To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds.
But there is a spirit in man:
and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.the inspirationJob 4:12-21 Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and
my ear received a little thereof...[faith comes by hearing what the Spirit of truth is saying ]
Job 33:16 Then
he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction,Job 35:11 Who teaches us more than the beasts of the earth, and makes us wiser ...
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts? or who has given understanding ...
...
1 Corinthians 2:10-12 But God has revealed them to us by his Spirit:
for the Spirit searches ...
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for ...
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all ...
I do believe God gives the increase of all things causing growth by His own Spirit of truth and grace By the Word of truth , Our Lord Jesus Christ ...
Amen! Great verses and thoughts Rose!
I also like how Eaglesway wrote in another thread -
Quote
Eaglesway in the thread u.r. affirmations -- "John the baptist says, "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
People read this as the wicked are the chaff and the righteous are the wheat, but each and every seed has wheat and chaff, the chaff being the hard outer covering of each and every grain. That chaff must be "broken" before the wheat can be gathered for milling into grain, and that is what the threshing floor was for- the chaff was beaten off the wheat, then it was blown off with fans, then the wheat was gathered, then the chaff was burned. The chaff does not burn forever. it burns until it is gone. The fire is "unquenchable" in that it will not stop burning the chaff until it is gone.
Life is the threshing floor. Any grains that leave this age/world with the chaff still intact, will enter whatever process exists in the world to come for the breaking and burning of the chaff-
I believe Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for the aionian chaff burning and separating light(wheat) from darkness(chaff), spirit(wheat) from carnality(chaff), life(wheat) from death(chaff).
Quote from: rosered on March 21, 2016, 08:40:50 PM
Job 38:36
Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?
:smile: ..great verses Rose!! :thumbsup: :gsmile:
Marie
Quote
And as far as those pagan systems went, we know the kings/priests used threatening afterlife to hold sway over the people.. And they had myths of winter involving the abode of the dead.. Scattered out from Babel Tower.. Egypt's punishing afterlife involved levels and also some fire.. We know the Greek myths (also) sprang from the Babylonian..
The more I look into it, the more it seems like there developed a separate branch of Christianity, which mixed pagan religion into it, which wasn't therefor Christian at all.. which after time, "snuck in unawares"... Paul wrote "I know false prophets like wolves will come among you"
:dontknow: :dontknow: just some thoughts.. It keeps (persistently) bouncing around in my head that hell came into the faith through the gnostics.. :Peace2:
Some more thought that come when reading this thread Marie :dsunny:
Everything that opposes Christ , and what the Lord Jesus Christ stands for the knowledge of God the wisdom of God , the Love of God , also the obedience to Gods desire
Something being made more clear to me was those working against Christ being
antichrist spirits the spirits of rebellion and idols works of their hands and how we become aware of them , they are anti love and anti over and against all that is called God
These are the powers that take a hold of our flesh and rule them as error .
Eph 611Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,
but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God,
so that you will be able to resist
in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm....
Now just what is this evil day ?
Could it be when the evil man of sin is exposed in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the breath of the Lord Jesus Christ
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2016, 04:48:26 PM
Now just what is this evil day ?
Could it be when the evil man of sin is exposed in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the breath of the Lord Jesus Christ
Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
" Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.
Quote from: Ross on March 23, 2016, 02:54:01 AM
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2016, 04:48:26 PM
Now just what is this evil day ?
Could it be when the evil man of sin is exposed in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the breath of the Lord Jesus Christ
Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
" Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.
Thank you Ross ,
His pride come before a fall
It was decreed for Him , by a court system in the heavens.
Nebuchadnezzar was told that the destruction of his power was a "matter by the decree of the watchers [i.e. Angels, the eyes of the Lord], and the demand by the word of the holy ones" (Dan. 4:17).
The Chaldee words translated "matter, "decree" and "demand" are all legal terms, implying a legal response, "a judicial decision" .
Strong defines "the demand". 4 Haughty eyes and a proud heart— the unplowed field of the wicked—produce sin.
He was humbled and after praised God
King Nebuchadnezzar was compared to a tree of knowledge of good and evil and the evil was a product /fruit of pride of life that err producing more err /sins and causing other to sin, err , rotten and corrupt fruit when aged [Job 41] and cut down , but was left a stump , with the root system still in the earth
Make the tree good and its fruits good or make the tree evil and its fruits evil / corrupt a tree is know by its fruits /works, end results
Same as Jesus saying and warning , I would rather you were hot or cold , lukewarm is considered producing both good and evil and unstable , and fruitless and close to cursing and needing to be dunged and watered etc , to me this is suffering and experiences of loss and exercising a mustering of faith perhaps , causing some type of reaction of one or the other from within , learning Gods righteousness in the earth our mortal bodies ..
Judgements in the earth as suffering for evil doing, sifted , shaken and the fear of God produced in you [faith ] and for choosing the good some Saving grace , which I consider Holy oil smeared on the crown , head so the light can shine and we can see what is going on within you and some fruit can come of it down the road for God to His glory , I do believe the fruit of the Spirit is to the Glory of God in praise to Him in the earth as it is in heaven they already know GOD IS GOOD ALWAYS .
When I think of the root system of Jesus Christ it is of Love , being rooted and grounded in Him already established and Firmly bearing fruits of the Holy Spirit , the fruit is the proof of the tree of Life and to the Glory of God in the earth working by love being the source of everything beautiful and righteous and Holy , pure and not a corrupt thing in it
The other opposing root system is of bitterness that defiles everything and of the adversary of opposing the Christ that stands for everything Holy , pure and complete in God
Seems the minute you set your heart to do good evil is present , because evil is within us also , the tree of knowledge of good and evil ,
Every last one of us are these trees to start off in born of the ability to sin/ err do wrong and do good being the right thing , God orders the steps , but the stumbling is in us when walking in the Spirit and Life of Christ
You being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will the heavenly Father give the ''holy spirit ''good gifts '' to those who ask Him
God gives good gifts / holy spirit to his children and His children learn obedience by suffering for wrong doing and doing the right thing also
suffering by being done wrong is exactly what Jesus Christ put up with constantly while being in the world but not of it , being born again is the tree of Life
and we get to be a tree of Life , His[seed] life dwelling within us , by the Spirit & truth standing up , not lying down and wallowing in self pity and uselessness letting err rule your heart ... the flesh is weak , but the Spirit is strong against the powers that be in the earth, our bodies
King Neb , learned a life saving lesson , the fear of the Lord was the beginning of true wisdom working in Him producing a seed of faith for suffering for not loving God first and foremost but loving the world being the pride of life and a foolish king of folly . how true this meaning for us all to consider ?
1.
lack of good sense; foolishness.
"an act of sheer folly"
2.
a costly ornamental building with no practical purpose, especially a tower or mock-Gothic ruin built in a large garden or park
1 John 2 5Do not love the world nor the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
The fruit does indeed expose what the root system was based upon.
The vine, the vine dresser are explicit illustrations of the process in John 15.
Especially;
" No branch can bear fruit by itself, it must remain in the vine."
Part of being the vine is pruning out the dead stuff, and cutting back the excess growth. All this shapes the vine and makes the fruit much richer.
So this White horse would be like cutting back the dead works, the lying weeds, the fruitless branches, burning out the pests. All necessary for there to be a richer vine.
The illustrations in the bible are incredibly deep when being shown the spiritual significance.
Quote from: Ross on March 23, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
The fruit does indeed expose what the root system was based upon.
The vine, the vine dresser are explicit illustrations of the process in John 15.
Especially;
" No branch can bear fruit by itself, it must remain in the vine."
Part of being the vine is pruning out the dead stuff, and cutting back the excess growth. All this shapes the vine and makes the fruit much richer.
So this White horse would be like cutting back the dead works, the lying weeds, the fruitless branches, burning out the pests. All necessary for there to be a richer vine.
The illustrations in the bible are incredibly deep when being shown the spiritual significance.
Thanks Ross ,
God bless you , you are so right the Word is beautifully Spiritually significant
I see the 4 horses are the 4 spirits of God in Zech 6 =Rev 6 , and you are right it does hold true to the works being done as those eyes are roaming the earth as judgments are in them
Each horse /spirit holding a specific task at an appointed time by the Lord of all and Father of Spirits working in all of us
Quote from: Ross on March 23, 2016, 02:54:01 AM
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2016, 04:48:26 PM
Now just what is this evil day ?
Could it be when the evil man of sin is exposed in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the breath of the Lord Jesus Christ
Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
" Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.
"past correction as an example of the future one.. by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory.." :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ..man's empire
"claiming to be God and actually in the temple"...this "claiming to be God" always reminds me of man's current theory of evolution as the origins of life.. which declares man to be the higher/highest power (deciding good and evil for himself, aka, sitting in the temple? - God need not apply thank you very much, seems to be the mindset)
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 04:39:46 PM
Quote from: Ross on March 23, 2016, 02:54:01 AM
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2016, 04:48:26 PM
Now just what is this evil day ?
Could it be when the evil man of sin is exposed in 2 Thessalonians 2 and destroyed by the breath of the Lord Jesus Christ
Could well be.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian System. Which, to me, seems to relate to the past correction as an example of the future one.
Nebuchadnezzar was in his temple and made the statement;
" Is this not Babylon the great that I have built by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory?"
While the words were still in the kings mouth a voice came from heaven;
" King Nebuchadnezzar, it is declared to you that the kingdom has departed from you."
Would seem to be pretty much how the one claiming to be God and actually in the temple will be split by the two edged sword so that the kingdom departs from him.
"past correction as an example of the future one.. by my vast power to be a royal residence and to display my majestic glory.."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ..man's empire
"claiming to be God and actually in the temple"
...this "claiming to be God" always reminds me of man's current theory of evolution as the origins of life.. which declares man to be the higher/highest power (deciding good and evil for himself, aka, sitting in the temple? - God need not apply thank you very much, seems to be the mindset)
Thanks sis Marie ,
The thing it can be many different layers of truth in these things ,
and the Lord give you a comfort in knowing ''of a truth'' , but this may not be for everyone and for all times
It is the Lord Himself who sets these things in motion by His Ow Spirit in my simple opinion.
You so reminded me of the prayer in scriptures in Luke 18 when the man was praying to himself [ his own little god of his own world of self righteousness ] and the confession of the sinner asking the Living God for mercy
we learn GODS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS in the earth not self righteousness , that is a sure fail and fall for sure . the foolish heart has no fear of God in them :mblush: the fear of the Lord is the true beginning of wisdom as the scriptures states .
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves and were confident that they were righteous [posing outwardly as upright and in right standing with God], and who viewed others with contempt:
10 "Two men went up into the temple [enclosure] to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood [ostentatiously] and began praying to himself [in a self-righteous way, saying]:
'God, I thank You that I am not like the rest of men—swindlers, unjust (dishonest), adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13 But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but was striking his chest [in humility and repentance], saying, 'God, be merciful and gracious to me, the [especially wicked] sinner [that I am]!'
14 I tell you, this man went to his home justified [forgiven of the guilt of sin and placed in right standing with God] rather than the other man;
for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself [forsaking self-righteous pride] will be exalted."
15 Now they were also bringing their babies to Him, so that He would touch and bless them, and when the disciples noticed it, they began reprimanding them.
16 But Jesus called them to Himself, saying [to the apostles], "Allow the children to come to Me, and do not forbid them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
17 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God [
with faith and humility] like a child will not enter it at all."
Amen! I think it is the same story.. the same truth throughout all things.. every life, history as a whole.. every nation and tribe's story.. all the same truth demonstrated over and over in every facet of life.. And every one of us has to know and fully realize that we are the creature. He is God and we are His creations.. In the scheme of things, that makes us, each one, not all that pivotal! I'd say not that important, but we are important.. to Him!
Yet another paradox!
What a glorious thing He is making! ..all of us, spiritually like children.. so many.. all, since the beginning - He is alpha, and, omega, and all in between.. jewels.. each one unique.. but with so much in common.. What He is creating reflects His glory..
Thanks sister Rose! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 08:01:00 PM
Amen! I think it is the same story.. the same truth throughout all things.. every life, history as a whole.. every nation and tribe's story.. all the same truth demonstrated over and over in every facet of life.. And every one of us has to know and fully realize that we are the creature. He is God and we are His creations.. In the scheme of things, that makes us, each one, not all that pivotal! I'd say not that important, but we are important.. to Him!
Yet another paradox!
What a glorious thing He is making! ..all of us, spiritually like children.. so many.. all, since the beginning - He is alpha, and, omega, and all in between.. jewels.. each one unique.. but with so much in common.. What He is creating reflects His glory..
Thanks sister Rose! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Amen sista Marie ,
Can we actually see JESUS CHRIST in'' all things'' ?
This can certainly change our perspective , how we see and view of how we feel and understand , think completely differently ...
If the WHOLE MASSIVE THING IS HELD BY JESUS CHRIST , He is so much more than just a man who walked the earth over 2000 years ago
But is breathing in and out in all the heavens and earth now in every creature and thing ever made , this precious LIFE is GODS SPIRIT and HIS glory and is the Truth , as it always was and is and will be so , It is all HIM , LOVE cannot be contained , but is connected to everything . WOW !! :banana: :banana: :banana:
Amen! sister Rose, "God is love".. therefor love will be the ruling force.. "all in all"! - this life is His tool.. the pen? with which He is "writing His law on our hearts" - on every heart! He wrote His law on stone tablets (needed for stone hearts) with His very finger.. He is writing His law, love, on every heart (with His very finger?).. for "love fulfills the law" and "love works no ill"...
"..the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow.." Isaiah 11:7
:banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
The whole cosmos is perishing outwardly because of sin. Disintegrating in chaos and futility.
But from within is is being renewed into the image of Christ, even as the flames consume the old as He is making all things new.
Since all these things are to be destroyeddisolved(lyomenon) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyedwill be dissolved(lythesontai) by burning, and the elements(stoicheon elemenental principles) will melt(pass away) with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
The ways of the world(elementary principles) are being consumed by the light of Christ which is fire to darkness. According to His promise(His kind intention which He purposed in Him...the summing up of all things in Christ- Eph 1:9) we are looking for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.
"Behold, old things pass away, All things become new".
Oh man this is so glorious :o)