worm dieth not

[greg]

In Revelation 4:4, notice the word 'skulls', "And around the throne, twenty four thrones, and upon those thrones, twenty four elders who sat wearing white garments and crowns of gold upon their skulls."

When we envision a mighty ruler who stations talking skulls around his throne, what kind of feeling do we get?  Fuzzy? No.  Frightened? Yes.

Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things."

I do appreciate that each person will have their own view of the character of Yahweh as judge and executioner.

As for me, I think that if we spend enough time with our eyes open on earth, it is not difficult to be floored psychologically by the cruelty of nature.  I heard recently about a little deer that got stuck in a guy's fence; when the guy arrived on the scene he saw his dog had been eating it from the legs upward.  What is the sense of that, the slow torment of an innocent creature.  Seth mentioned the Jewish Holocaust in an earlier post, which is another way to emphasize this point -- remember that scene in Schindler's List where the Jewish children hide from the Nazi soldiers in the camp by stationing themselves inside pit toilets.   Evil is literally disgusting; its consequence torments and disgusts.

Even the great redemption example (our hope to avoid destruction) that was given by of our Judge & Executioner is the example of the tormented sacrificial lamb.  These computer screens we're all looking at right now impede what I'm trying to say, so please read this in your mind too -- after his suffering and eventual death on a crude wooden stake, the Son of Man did not immediately ascend to heaven.  Perhaps he was comforted in another place, perhaps not; either way, the point here is that there are places and times out there ready for torment and destruction, and this wild earth appears to be preparing our psychologies for whatever we have measured, for it shall be measured back to us.  How many creatures have been tormented on earth without recompense?

If each person's scale was already perfectly measured at death, such that no further torment was necessary to achieve cosmic justice, then presumably the bible text would say that explicitly.  Instead, we read these verses that say the very opposite:

(1) "And the smoke of their torment will rise to a world/age worlds/ages, and they do not have breath/soul/life daily or nightly those who worshiped the beast and its image and those who took the mark of its name." Revelation 14:11

(2) Matthew 25:46, "As much as you worked it not to one of the least of these, you also worked it not to me: and these go to torment dEalm ("that a world/age"): and the just to life dEalm ("that to a world/age")

Now, while these verses are indeed harrowing, a bible literalist (like myself) will be the first to acknowledge that they do not refer to eternal torment or everlasting torment because:

(1) Rev 14:11 specifically describes that this Ealm Ealmyn ("a world of ages") is in relation to days and nights.  These are terms that require planetary bodies in motion, and definitely do not fit the meaning of 'eternal' or 'everlasting'.  Note also the similar language in Isaiah 34:9-10, where Isaiah says the fire consuming Edom shall burn "night and day" and "shall not be quenched." Most translations say the smoke "shall go up forever".  The common translations are obviously erroneous.  Only the literal text is correct, that the smoke rises "from generation to generation".  Indeed, we can plainly observe that the fire and smoke of Edom's judgment is not still rising today.  Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh?  He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."  Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

(2) And then regarding Matthew 25:46, the operative word is singular in both cases (Ealm), so the promise is to be transported to a new world/age, not to be transported to infinity.  The bible literalist sees the promises actually made are proportional and literal.  The claims of 'everlasting life' and 'everlasting torment' are non-literal – they are simplistic mistranslations favored by modern translations. 

In other words, everlasting hell enthusiasts will not give up their dogmatic assumptions about everlasting life, so they also feel compelled to dogmatically preach everlasting torment.  But the literal text contradicts their dogma. The bible text here literally promises a world/age for life and a world/age for torment.  Non-literalists do not limit themselves to the literal words, which is why they freely mistranslate words to fit their dogma.  Doing so in Matthew 25:46 allows them to claim their dogma is consistent with itself because both words are mistranslated together.  This is the equivalent of arguing that two wrongs make a right. 

In the literal Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek -- your life continues from this world/age to another world/age as long as you remain in the Creator; but if you ever depart from the Creator's protection you're dead in your sin, even if that death occurs in the next world or even 7 worlds from this one.  Why?  Because in the literal text of the bible, only the Father (and those who live in Him) can live perpetually and indefinitely.  One of my favorite examples is Psalm 41:13, "Blessed is Yahweh, God of Israel, From the age -- and unto the age. Amen and Amen." Notice the two amens, because those are Hebrew words, and the word amen refers literally to something perpetual; so it's doubled use here refers to past and future. 

Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no god formed, And after Me not shall be."

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall ThEamd )"stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

Nowhere in the bible can we find a statement like this for sinners, "their years shall not be ended" – that is simply not in the bible.  Rather, there are countless verses describing the utter annihilation of the wicked.

But in the bible, we see that while destruction abounds, still a remnant is always preserved by Yahweh to continue life for good purposes.  John 5:21, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, likewise also the son.  Those whom he desires are made alive."

[Seth]

In Revelation 4:4, notice the word 'skulls', "And around the throne, twenty four thrones, and upon those thrones, twenty four elders who sat wearing white garments and crowns of gold upon their skulls."

When we envision a mighty ruler who stations talking skulls around his throne, what kind of feeling do we get?  Fuzzy? No.  Frightened? Yes.

Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things."

I do appreciate that each person will have their own view of the character of Yahweh as judge and executioner.

As for me, I think that if we spend enough time with our eyes open on earth, it is not difficult to be floored psychologically by the cruelty of nature.  I heard recently about a little deer that got stuck in a guy's fence; when the guy arrived on the scene he saw his dog had been eating it from the legs upward.  What is the sense of that, the slow torment of an innocent creature.  Seth mentioned the Jewish Holocaust in an earlier post, which is another way to emphasize this point -- remember that scene in Schindler's List where the Jewish children hide from the Nazi soldiers in the camp by stationing themselves inside pit toilets.   Evil is literally disgusting; its consequence torments and disgusts.

Even the great redemption example (our hope to avoid destruction) that was given by of our Judge & Executioner is the example of the tormented sacrificial lamb.  These computer screens we're all looking at right now impede what I'm trying to say, so please read this in your mind too -- after his suffering and eventual death on a crude wooden stake, the Son of Man did not immediately ascend to heaven.  Perhaps he was comforted in another place, perhaps not; either way, the point here is that there are places and times out there ready for torment and destruction, and this wild earth appears to be preparing our psychologies for whatever we have measured, for it shall be measured back to us.  How many creatures have been tormented on earth without recompense?

If each person's scale was already perfectly measured at death, such that no further torment was necessary to achieve cosmic justice, then presumably the bible text would say that explicitly.  Instead, we read these verses that say the very opposite:

(1) "And the smoke of their torment will rise to a world/age worlds/ages, and they do not have breath/soul/life daily or nightly those who worshiped the beast and its image and those who took the mark of its name." Revelation 14:11

(2) Matthew 25:46, "As much as you worked it not to one of the least of these, you also worked it not to me: and these go to torment dEalm ("that a world/age"): and the just to life dEalm ("that to a world/age")

Now, while these verses are indeed harrowing, a bible literalist (like myself) will be the first to acknowledge that they do not refer to eternal torment or everlasting torment because:

(1) Rev 14:11 specifically describes that this Ealm Ealmyn ("a world of ages") is in relation to days and nights.  These are terms that require planetary bodies in motion, and definitely do not fit the meaning of 'eternal' or 'everlasting'.  Note also the similar language in Isaiah 34:9-10, where Isaiah says the fire consuming Edom shall burn "night and day" and "shall not be quenched." Most translations say the smoke "shall go up forever".  The common translations are obviously erroneous.  Only the literal text is correct, that the smoke rises "from generation to generation".  Indeed, we can plainly observe that the fire and smoke of Edom's judgment is not still rising today.  Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh?  He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."  Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

(2) And then regarding Matthew 25:46, the operative word is singular in both cases (Ealm), so the promise is to be transported to a new world/age, not to be transported to infinity.  The bible literalist sees the promises actually made are proportional and literal.  The claims of 'everlasting life' and 'everlasting torment' are non-literal – they are simplistic mistranslations favored by modern translations. 

In other words, everlasting hell enthusiasts will not give up their dogmatic assumptions about everlasting life, so they also feel compelled to dogmatically preach everlasting torment.  But the literal text contradicts their dogma. The bible text here literally promises a world/age for life and a world/age for torment.  Non-literalists do not limit themselves to the literal words, which is why they freely mistranslate words to fit their dogma.  Doing so in Matthew 25:46 allows them to claim their dogma is consistent with itself because both words are mistranslated together.  This is the equivalent of arguing that two wrongs make a right. 

In the literal Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek -- your life continues from this world/age to another world/age as long as you remain in the Creator; but if you ever depart from the Creator's protection you're dead in your sin, even if that death occurs in the next world or even 7 worlds from this one.  Why?  Because in the literal text of the bible, only the Father (and those who live in Him) can live perpetually and indefinitely.  One of my favorite examples is Psalm 41:13, "Blessed is Yahweh, God of Israel, From the age -- and unto the age. Amen and Amen." Notice the two amens, because those are Hebrew words, and the word amen refers literally to something perpetual; so it's doubled use here refers to past and future. 

Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no god formed, And after Me not shall be."

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall ThEamd )"stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

Nowhere in the bible can we find a statement like this for sinners, "their years shall not be ended" – that is simply not in the bible.  Rather, there are countless verses describing the utter annihilation of the wicked.

But in the bible, we see that while destruction abounds, still a remnant is always preserved by Yahweh to continue life for good purposes.  John 5:21, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, likewise also the son.  Those whom he desires are made alive."

Greg, I definitely agree with your view on the temporary nature of judgement (if not the nature of that judgement), but if you are saying that the "sinners/wicked" are to be lost forever, not resurrected and saved, then I disagree. I believe all shall be saved.

[rosered]

So the worm dies not because  the world continues as it does  always setting the examples IN THE EARTH ,

   no flesh pleases GOD   

Never  has and never will , Even Jesus come in  the same   likeness  of sinful nature of being flesh and blood as the sin offering on the altar  once  for all time

  Romans 8 ...2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did:

sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,


4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....


those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit & truth    ...   Spiritual beings of the same spiritual nature as  the  birthing of Christ our best example

  and the child grew and waxed strong in TRUTH &GRACE   conceived of the Holy Spirit    in a virgin   mind/womb , clean and pure JOHN 3 .......  with  godly jealousy making you chaste virgins for Christ   2 COR 11 For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. ... you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ. .... to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

  The parable of the 10 virgins      ,   5 wise and  5 foolish       Oil in their lamps  burning[Holy Spirit  oil  [Zech4]    [the Light and love of God indwelling ]  ....    waiting for His return ...    as a bride for her husband     

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4

note the foot notes ! and Zech 6   11-14

   I am always amazed when more  Light comes   that we can see , hear and understand   as the Holy Spirit teaches and comforts us all   ...    :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

...Greg...I can understand the concept...as ye have no life in yourselves..ye must remain in me[will of God] my words are spirit/life.....

  man does not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of God. Eat my flesh/drink my blood. Scriptures are chock full

  of people falling away unto death..by not remaining in His will.  the Word of God come in flesh and declared forgiveness of sin

   that God was waiving judgement and extending mercy unto all that believe in His son. That it was not the will of the Father to judge

man[condemn] but to save.[sin in flesh condemned/not man].......thus the law as the ministry of death and condemnation set aside

[the Father judges no man/I judge no man/these words that I speak will judge him in the last day.}  to whether we remain in the will of

the Father/all men saved/mercy over judgement and alive unto God...and listen unto His son..in whom He is well pleased..or unto the

ram with  two horns that speaks like a dragon[accusor]  if God be for us..who can be against us?  apparently those who had not

remained in the will of God..that condemned Christ and His followers in their courts and put them to death!that takes 'all of the sins of

the world' off Jesus shoulders at the cross..and places them back on men.


rather I see the atrocities/cruelities of this world..more as a reflection of the prince of this world's work's[wickedness] than more

of God meteing out justice.  When the people wanted a king over them..to be like the nations..God took it as a rejection of Him.....

   He said ' they will take and take and take...to your loss.

   the evil contrast/spirit..when active in the angels of heaven..become a dragon..when it took on the form of the serpent in the garden

   it led man into disobedience/death...the serpent..being the most subtil beast of the field..made man without understanding as a beast before

the Lord and not man reflecting His nature and image. it is the same spirit in operation in the angels,dragon,serpent,beasts and

men of sin....[they all devour/prey on one-another]..and there is enmity between the woman's seed/man and the serpent.

   we may think it is Yahwey meeting us as a bear,leopard and lion Hosea 13;6,7  their heart was exalted,therefore they have forgotten

me,therefore I will meet them LIKE a lion,leopard and bear[marred image of God's true nature/LOVE]


  O'Israel,thou hast destroyed thyself..but in me is thine help! I will be thy King,where is any other that will save thee in thy cities

  and thy judges of whom thou said 'give me of kings and princes?"

   Father says 'I have seen the way he takes" and 'I will heal him and restore him"

[greg]

...rather I see the atrocities/cruelities of this world..more as a reflection of the prince of this world's work's[wickedness] than more

of God meteing out justice... 

I can appreciate that, and thank you for the other comments as well.

I guess the greater point I was trying to make is the way the bible overflows with violence, especially against children... for example, where a spirit from above slaughters all firstborn Egyptian boys in a single night. 

John 19:11, "Yeshua said to him [Pontius Pilate], 'You have no power at all over me unless it has been given to you from above; therefore, whoever has delivered me to you has greater sin than yours.'"

I fear Yahweh.  I fear He has created heights of exultation and depths of torment worthy of the songs of angels.  How much pain does a creature need to suffer to fill the cup, to engage the heavenly voice appointed to sing that saga?   My question is not 'how many angels fit on the head of a pin?' but rather 'how many pins shall men suffer in the songs of angels'?

[rosered]

 

  I know you meant this for Shelia    bro Greg     ...

But have you ever considered that  in these the last days ,  where so much knowledge [good &evil] has increased   ... 
  You would not have known of all the deaths and  tragedies or good things as well to be fair ,  if not for  technology, these computers  tv  media  frenzies    , they are like sharks on a story totally twisting the truth   ,   so many liars   etc....   

But God was merciful in   shortening the days of our flesh     to 70 years    more or less  depending on the  days of our flesh  and those that walk in the Spirit those days are also behind them  now     IT  is   in  the   Psalms   our ''sure mercies of David    '' in  the salt covenant     

and His love was to punish  them   only   by     letting  the rods of men and stokes of men do so  in correcting   , His love would never leave   them ever !!  that's commitment   , now  men are wicked by nature just like an animal    , that old beastly   cruel and   superior attitude      the carnal mined   which is death minded , hunting and killing  [ the nimrods ]   

Jesus Christ said HE was turned over the  the hands [powers of sinful men ]     could them scriptures be any clearer   to us  now that we have HIS WORD and Spirit teaching us  the truth     ?  it was NOT  the Father punishing  Jesus   for sins of the world , It was Jesus willingly laying down His Life for us only to take it back up again

  I am certain these   that have died in that same innocent blood are in the glory of God before the world began with Jesus Christ  now  , my confidence   comes from faith in the     WORD of God   being true    and by His Spirit is  witness  as well     




2 Same 7 God's Covenant with David........
...13"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

14"I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, 15but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you....

  I hope that you will consider this ,, God bless   you in Jesus peace ...........

[sheila]

and yet,David,when given a choice as to whether fall into the hands of men,or God,chose God..and the 3 day plague of death

  come..and was halted at the threshing floor.Reckoning God more merciful then men controlled by demons..this I agree with!


   death angel is not to be feared!  men lie in rest to be spared the evil that is coming........men whom through the fear of death all

their lives were slaves unto sin.   the visit of the death angel that passed through   was full of mercy! a gentle death! say compared

to what demonic possesed men did to His servants and prophet's...like boiling alive/cutting in two etc.


   look upon Moses death.......Anais and Saphira.....it may be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the livingGod..but that is

much more preferrable then falling into the hands of wicked men and their demonic maddness.


   the book of Enoch speaks of a certain amount fixed that a man be tried by the wickedness in this earth...He sets limits on what

we suffer in this exercize with evil[Eccl] Jesus said 'Lazarus is sleeping" the maiden is asleep........all that sleep rest from their labours.


another thing you need to know is how merciful God is when the saints die...we shall ALL not sleep..but we shall ALL be changed!

  the hour has come,and is NOW when all asleep in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God and come forth.


BLESSED IS HE WHO DIES IN THE LORD,from now on!!!!

  on this side of death...there is pain and torment and an evil expierence...oh,but on the other side the Lord awaits..the reaping

angels greet...and come bringing you into the Holy city rejoicing..there is no more death,nor crying nor mourning..for the former things

have passed away.

  Father and Jesus are of many compassions..consider the gentle death when the angel of death passed through..and weigh it against

men heeding evil spirits that burned their children alive.

  also consider this...the same God who designed our body..built in a nervous system...that releases natural pain-killers..that

even make it that the injury is not felt.  Even the mercies of the wicked are cruel.

  death is a mercy from pain,torment....see the locust sting that makes men pray for death

  as a nurse..I have been at bedside of many who died. I wittnessed this one woman shine and glow as it approached. I've seen the smile

come..and the sigh of relief as the spirit was  given up............


   Israel is my firstborn son...and the Egyptians become afraid of the increase of the Israelites..and killed the newborn males.

  now,Egypt symbolized satan/the prince of this world..who holds God's spiritual children in captivity to slave/sin works.....

  let my people go.........and thus the corrupt image[man of sin]natural man dies that the incorrupt image/sons of God/spiritual

men may live.


    power given from above...and satan tempted Him...all these kingdoms of the earth have been given unto me...bow down and

do one act of worship..and I shall give them unto you...satan usurped and took the dominion of the earth from man..when he decieved

and led out in disobedience.  God said unto Cain 'sin is a demon that croucheth at the door..and his desire is to rule over you..

but you must master it"   Obedience to God leads to dominion....Jesus said...Now my kingdom is not from this source/as the

prince of this world has authority to give to who-ever he wishes for acts of bowing down.  Jesus source for His Kingdom was the

Father in Heaven...Israel chose the release of a robber over Jesus....for they loved the works of darkness.they had no king but Caesar!

and that same Caeser[rome] destroyed Jerusalem.

  but God promises to destroy those who destroy the earth..and Jesus says destroy this temple and I will raise it on the third day!

[rosered]

  I was only going by the scriptures in Psalms 73

You set them, indeed, on a slippery road;
    you hurl them down to ruin.
19 How suddenly they are devastated;
    utterly undone by disaster!
20 They are like a dream after waking, Lord,
    dismissed like shadows when you arise.
IV
21 Since my heart was embittered
    and my soul deeply wounded,
22 I was stupid and could not understand;
    I was like a brute beast in your presence.
23 Yet I am always with you;
    you take hold of my right hand.
24 With your counsel you guide me,
    and at the end receive me with honor.
25 Whom else have I in the heavens?
    None beside you delights me on earth.
26 Though my flesh and my heart fail,
    God is the rock of my heart, my portion forever.

  I see David as repentant  ,  change of mind    from the carnal mind  /  conflicted /wounded angry ,seeing God as unfair   as a beast  before the Lord
      to the mind of Christ   obedient and trusting God

That from the unclean   to clean , by  the washing of the water of the Word with  guiding  counsel of  God ...

[darryl]

not sure about the OT passage but my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic  tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.

[rosered]

not sure about the OT passage but my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic  tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.

Thanks Daryll  :dsunny:

[sheila]

there is another scripture about the people  praising a man..and claiming him as a god/ and worms consumed him right then.

......Jesus also..said..'is it not written in your law that ye are gods?"   and this 'will ye say 'I am a god..when ye shall all die like men"

   and ' when finding himself in very nature like/as God,humbled himself in obedience as a servant,unto death"

     these may give further insight....

[sheila]

Acts 12;23   Herod....

[marie glen]

...amen much food for thought...

not sure about the OT passage but my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic  tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

(..xcept for soul, i would think psyche and personality, inner being.. but no matter, likely same difference! :laugh2: :smile: )

[sheila]

? connection with Baal..lord of the flies

[sheila]

Abarim publications has some interesting info on Baal zebub..Beelzebub..Lord of flies etc..for anyone interested.....

[rosered]

? connection with Baal..lord of the flies

Abarim publications has some interesting info on Baal zebub..Beelzebub..Lord of flies etc..for anyone interested.....

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/BaalZebub.html#.VqAJNvkrK00

  :thumbsup:

[sheila]

TY Sis.... :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Very interesting link! :thumbsup: