The only places in scripture where the words "worm shall not die" and "worm dieth not" are these:
In the Old Testament
Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
In the New Testament only spoken by Jesus Christ:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna) fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
In the Old Testament the reference in Isaiah 66 is to Gehenna, and that is literal. Gehenna, the word hell (Gehenna really) is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad. A real place, yes a terrible place ititially of human sacrifice and eventually a garbage dump.
In the New Testament, only spoken by Jesus and only found in Mark (9: 43-48). I believe most of us believe that the Gehenna Christ was referring too was a spiritual fire for judgement (chastisement). if Christ's references to Gehenna were always in a spiritual context, then why does He make reference to the phrase " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
The verses in Mark 9 referring to the worm are either:
1 spurious
2 literal (which I doubt)
3 spiritual (deeper meaning about this fire-proof worm) ???
4 idiom?
I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained. Hebrew scholars amongst us may explain if it can just be an idiom?
Previous posts:
Regarding Mark Chapter 9 - "Unquenchable Fire"
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:40 AM »
Re: Isaiah 66:24
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
Re: Isaiah 66
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:54 PM »
Members thoughts would be appreciated.
Here are my thoughts from Heaven, Yes - Hell, No. My coverage of the Gospel of Matthew is not yet posted here in Tentmaker.
...He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9) The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same. Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd. It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life. As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...
:cloud9: I now see the hand, foot, eye, ect., as being members of your own household. Jesus stretched out His HAND, and said our enemies are those of our own household, then talks about He didn't come to bring peace and that the members of the house will be turned against one another, ie. 2 against 3 and 3 against 2. If you get that He stretched out His HAND, then thumb and first finger are 2 against 3, and reverse is 3 against 2. Same way with feet and toes. These are the members of our "house" that are guilty of sinning against Him who is Spirit within us, with the works/walk of the flesh. My :2c: Blessings....
PS. the worm is that which eats the flesh, and it dieth not until there is no flesh left to consume. Once it's done, the fire and the worm are not needed.
:2c: God called Jacob a little worm...and told him not to fear...that He would help him. Jacob/Israel=name/nature change.
Jacob connived to get something...then was connived himself out of the wife he wanted,less he work 7 more years..and then
was connived out of his wages time and again..but God helped him.God helps us all.
Good study Joeteekay :thumbsup:
Read what you shared and studied this years ago , and honestly have forgotten most of it :doh:
I know that this verse has two types of worm meanings in just this one verse .
God willing in the morning when more time is available and very excited to share :Pray: What has blessed me personally on this .
It has helped me immensely , but it is always the Lord God who gives us what we need by the Holy Spirit witness in the right time .
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp H1347 is brought down H3381 to the grave, H7585 and the noise H1998 of thy viols: H5035 the worm H7415 is spread H3331 under thee, and the worms H8438 cover H4374 thee.
noted the worm that lies beneath and the worm that covers
Both are used for specific scriptures , Jacob is a worm and this is the one where scriptures speak of the worm Jacob and How God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the LIVING GOD whose name was changed to Israel , this is a very significant meaning and purpose of God in my opinion
one is a worm singular and the other is plural worms , these are the mankind/kings of the earth and worms are the reward for iniquity [shamefully known and named ] throughout scripture that we still read of today in the WORD and despise those sins that is stinking of death that has not died but is still alive in the WORD OF GOD as a witness to us to this day .
As far as the unquenchable fire goes , this fire has been set and burns from God Himself Consuming from the beginning of the Word of God from old and the bible has shown us all that have been destroyed by it though all the examples and ages from long ago the Whole Bible declares it from the beginning the law was made and written on two stones .. Isaiah 14
I am so sorry to rush off , but chores are waiting and hubby will be home soon .......
God bless , hope others share more soon :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on January 13, 2016, 10:31:45 PM
:2c: God called Jacob a little worm...and told him not to fear...that He would help him. Jacob/Israel=name/nature change.
Jacob connived to get something...then was connived himself out of the wife he wanted,less he work 7 more years..and then
was connived out of his wages time and again..but God helped him.God helps us all.
:thumbsup: Jacob the worm scarlet worm :winkgrin:
Also what helped me the most was Isaiah 25 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+25)
When the Lord will loose all from the grave !!! yay Isaiah 25; 8 :banana:
Tthis has been a helpful study tool for me as well over the years
Quote from: joeteekay on January 13, 2016, 09:20:14 PM
The only places in scripture where the words "worm shall not die" and "worm dieth not" are these:
In the Old Testament
Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
In the New Testament only spoken by Jesus Christ:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna) fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
In the Old Testament the reference in Isaiah 66 is to Gehenna, and that is literal. Gehenna, the word hell (Gehenna really) is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad. A real place, yes a terrible place ititially of human sacrifice and eventually a garbage dump.
In the New Testament, only spoken by Jesus and only found in Mark (9: 43-48). I believe most of us believe that the Gehenna Christ was referring too was a spiritual fire for judgement (chastisement). if Christ's references to Gehenna were always in a spiritual context, then why does He make reference to the phrase " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
The verses in Mark 9 referring to the worm are either:
1 spurious
2 literal (which I doubt)
3 spiritual (deeper meaning about this fire-proof worm) ???
4 idiom?
I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained. Hebrew scholars amongst us may explain if it can just be an idiom?
Previous posts:
Regarding Mark Chapter 9 - "Unquenchable Fire"
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:40 AM »
Re: Isaiah 66:24
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
Re: Isaiah 66
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:54 PM »
Members thoughts would be appreciated.
I actually believe the reference to Gehenna in Isaiah 66 is every bit as symbolic as the reference to it in the Gospels. I believe Isaiah 66 is about the formation of the Bride (New Jerusalem), which uses the same phrasing as in Revelation's description of New Jerusalem, and the spiritual wasteland outside that Bride. So, that is why I believe Jesus makes the reference, I think he is shedding further light on the mystery of the prophecy.
Quote from: joeteekay on January 13, 2016, 09:20:14 PM
I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained.
Oh no, I completely adequately explained it. You must have missed it. :wink3: :pointlaugh:
An interesting study.. I'm going to read more on this.. Isaiah 25.. and past posts..
but found all this interesting.. the CLV (CL Version?) of Isaiah 66:24:
"And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh."
"worm" = H8438
to-law', to-lay-aw', (3,4) to-lah'-ath
From H3216; a maggot (as voracious); specifically (often with ellipsis of H8144) the crimson grub, but used only (in this connection) of the color from it, and cloths dyed therewith
1. worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
a. worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
b. scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
1. the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"
Wow.. I never read this before, interesting...
"the worm "coccus ilicis" ++++
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding His precious blood that He might "bring many sons unto glory" (Heb. 2:"
the verse word for word from the Interlinear (isa3)
"in me the ones transgressing the mortals in corpses of and they see and they go forth she shall be quenched not and fire of them she shall die not worm of them that flesh to all of repulsion and they become" ..(it's a little confusing when ya read it like that..)
(CLV) Leviticus 6:12
+Yet the fire on the altar shall be kept glowing on it; it shall not be quenched. ....? cross-reference?
_________________________________
Earlier in the chapter (and context)
"Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her.. That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting ..For the Lord says this, "Behold, I extend peace to her (Jerusalem/New) like a river, and the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream.. Then you shall feed, on her sides shall you be carried, and be dandled on her knees.. When you see this, your heart will rejoice, your bones will flourish like new grass. And the [powerful] hand of the Lord will be revealed to His servants, but His indignation will be toward His enemies.. For indeed, the Lord will come in fire and His chariots will be like the stormy wind, to render His anger with rage, and His rebuke with flames of fire.. For the Lord will execute judgment by fire and by His sword (TRUTH) on all mankind, and those slain by the Lord will be many.. For I know their works and their thoughts. The time is coming to gather all nations and languages, and they will come and see My glory.. Then they shall bring all your countrymen (children of Israel) from all the nations as a grain offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels—to My holy mountain Jerusalem.. And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down and worship before Me," says the Lord.. (Amplified Version)
And the last verse, verse 24 - Young's Literal - "And they have gone forth, and looked on the carcases of the men who are transgressing against me, for their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched, and they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!"
Isaiah 14:11 - "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."
"worm" same word as in "worm dieth not" of Isaiah 66:24 (H8438)
second "worm" or "maggot" in some versions is H7415
- rimmâh
From H7426 in the sense of breeding.. maggot, worm (as cause and sign of decay)
..an idiom..? ...like "to the grave with ye! ye mangy.. whatever" ..that would be more pirate lingo than Hebrew tho.. :laughing7:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 13, 2016, 09:32:36 PM
Here are my thoughts from Heaven, Yes - Hell, No. My coverage of the Gospel of Matthew is not yet posted here in Tentmaker.
...He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9) The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same. Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd. It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life. As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...
Laz, I have enjoyed your whole series, and think you've got some good insight with your conclusion.
I remember looking in to it a little bit in the past, and finding that there was quite an emphasis put on the importance of 'proper' burial for the Jews.
I just did a quick Google search for a refresher and my first hit was a sight about Jewish law concerning this subject. One of the things that jumped out at me (in relation to Joeteekay's quoted Matthew verses) was: "According to Jewish law, a Jew is to be buried as he was born - complete with all his limbs and organs. The human body is considered as sacred in death as it was in life as it contained a G‑dly soul. He must be buried in a traditional grave in the ground, so that the body may return to the earth."
As a side, this website also mentioned the importance of immediate burial (something I've wondered about re: Ananias & Sapphira)
[Act 5:5-10 KJV] 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him]. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.
It's a very quick read if anyone is interested: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367836/jewish/Basic-Laws.htm
Blessings all,
Pat
Thanks Marie , for the word meanings ! Awesome , meaning
I love what Laz and Patick shared , proving the point , keeping the traditions of Men , and How the Word the Lord Jesus Christ
by keeping the old law and upping the ante , this by saying the cutting of of limbs ,
Goes along with Him saying eat my body and drink my blood that you might have Life in you , lusting after a woman in your heart you broke the law already
that was absurd to them prim and proper keeper of the letter of the lawyers , carnal so very carnal and so offensive Jesus Words are to the carnal minds [ Enmity against the Spirit and Spirit against the carnal minded]
And
Jesus was trying to tell them it is the heart that desires and defiles , not keeping these silly traditions that please God ..
The spiritual aspect of it is Jesus was telling them all they were is dead and rotting corpses in the sins and so carnal without a speck of spirituality in the old dry bones , all flesh is eaten by the worms and is a stink ready to be burned ...[Gehenna ] it has enlarged as the world is a spectacle... sign
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah if they had not left us a seed , it is the same condition continual burnings , for me this is the lust an desires of the heart that arre contrary to the Spirit of God in nature and meaning
The examples are though out the Word of God from the very beginning in Adam / carnal mankind going against the Holy Spirit from the start.
What I wanted to share and had no time for yesterday , was the urgency in the Words of Jesus Christ ,
His testimony is the last Word being said [pure prophecy] complete truth , it is the Last Day , by scripture or the book of memorials those that died carnally still in their sins ...
Heb1 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
there is no more Bible to add to HIS word it is the last Word , and JOHN the revelator spoke in Revelation being in the SPIRIT on the LORDS DAY , that fulness of times , John was not carnal at all in speaking and this is why , no carnal mind can understand it at all , it is the heavenly language
and Only language spoken clearly in Jesus Christ that unlocks the seals in the BOOK OF LIFE for you to understand with the mind of Christ , that John had when writing all this down for us , it is the Key of David , the mercy of God to get in to the safety/ Hid in Christ heavenly places as the world burns and rots around you ,,,
Our last days of walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit
maimed even , walking in the Spirit you know where you are going being led of the Holy Spirit by Jesus LAST WORDS .complete , walking in the flesh you have no clue where you are going or even what heaven means
and have never been to heaven nor have no clue what that even means to die in the Lord that you will be saved ,,,
Quote from: rosered on January 14, 2016, 12:19:38 PM
The spiritual aspect of it is Jesus was telling them all they were is dead and rotting corpses in the sins and so carnal without a speck of spirituality in the old dry bones , all flesh is eaten by the worms and is a stink ready to be burned ...[Gehenna ] it has enlarged as the world is a spectacle... sign
I'm reminded of a dream I had years ago - I had a view of a man of high status. He had a great physique and his body was decorated with embedded jewels of great beauty, sort of like navel jewels. I looked closely at him, and saw tiny worms wriggling on his skin - yes, the worms were already working on him.
:cloud9: Interesting side note.....a worm was used by them to make the dye color red....
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 14, 2016, 04:29:57 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 14, 2016, 12:19:38 PM
The spiritual aspect of it is Jesus was telling them all they were is dead and rotting corpses in the sins and so carnal without a speck of spirituality in the old dry bones , all flesh is eaten by the worms and is a stink ready to be burned ...[Gehenna ] it has enlarged as the world is a spectacle... sign
I'm reminded of a dream I had years ago - I had a view of a man of high status. He had a great physique and his body was decorated with embedded jewels of great beauty, sort of like navel jewels. I looked closely at him, and saw tiny worms wriggling on his skin - yes, the worms were already working on him.
Wow I LOVE IT LAZ ,confirmation to me , like wow!
I am not one to share a whole lot of personal things [secret things ] about God , there are exactly two that know .. some are gone on fully into the Spirit realm now. as I wait my turn .. I have on this forum a very few times , sort of , like right now ...
To me it is weird stuff and unexplainable , and the carnal minded have a field day with in their own minds confusion & doubt that mix] !! I know I was one of them for a long time
kind of declaring I had faith , but deny the works and call it of satan /devil , Yep thats right ! just like the scribes Pharisees and hypocrites did ,
calling Jesus the son of belial / "Belial means "without a master", and symbolizes true independence, self-sufficiency, and personal accomplishment. Belial
represents the earth element.
While Jesus was declaring all the while , that was said and done was by His Father only , he was just the proof sent [first of the firstfruits ] always Glorifying God in the earth in spiritual things and was hated for them works
You do not realize you are doing it , but you sure are , by calling everything you do not understand evil .... fair warning
Till the Lord showed me the error of my ways , I too had those strange Spiritual encounters , it confounds the human mind ,, and is scary stuff , Abrams first encounter terrified him , but by faith the fear of the Lord was his beginning of true wisdom being established within him and becoming a friend of God from being and enemy against the HOLY SPIRIT ..
I always used the scripture if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived , here is the Christ ,or there is the Christ , and no not believe them etc ... that was my calling card , I would not allow anything to come and defile me, all the while I was rotting in sins and stink to the high heavens like Lazarus useless and needing to be resurrected spiritually speaking for the true Masters use ,,GOD HIMSELF IS whom helps us and It is Him whom all the glory is given period ,,, you just get the joy of being a partaker of Him ,
The Christ in you that anointing of the Holy Spirit birth in you the hope of Glory , seeing and knowing and living in the Spirit by Jesus Christ the first one Son of God and son of mankind of many to come and are coming still by the Power of the Word /seed planted and the HOLY SPIRIT pure waters of life freely and GOD gives the righteous increase all by His own choosing.. :HeartThrob:
The weird thing now and trying to explain , I was emailing with a dear brother in the Lord and sharing some scriptures exchanges , over the course of a few days , the night vision , I call them night visions because it was in the dark of not knowing what it means at all .. though some have come when my carnal brain was resting in sleep and the Spirit would get though , I see them as in the natural first [carnal ] than Spiritual [Holy Spirit ] just as the WORD OF GOD declares it to be so ..
I was eating this weird fruit that had sections of crescents in it , never seen anything like it in the natural realm before ,
now this fruit was light like crystal but moving and never noticed it before , till it startled me these thin almost transparent like worms were trying to get up into my nose and I got really startled and thew it down and freaked out
I know by some studies about the nose it would come though anger the snorting of the nose , carnally still and what clear almost unseen to the naked eye was deceiving little slivers of worms by the bunches , and not to eat of this fruit it was death entering though the nose /anger ,,,
It was apparent , see though and sneaky and tiny that if the Lord had not helped me to see
trying to enter , it I sure would have kept eating of its fruit and it was death that looked like life ! very scary dream like message and personal , as most are , but have had some where standing and was looking from a distance as observing ...
These things are private to me and not sure if they should be shared with anyone
You never want anyone to think your crazy , or "special "' because you ARE NOT either
and when you do share them , there is that risk that will happen , not everyone can handle it properly , and you can stumble a brother
When he thinks ill of you ....... than nothing you say is believable to them .....
cut off their ear :sigh: no seeds and no water for God to give the increase....
Some deeply personal stuff on the forum as of late ,, God knows .... as many things come to mind ....
Quote from: Patinak on January 14, 2016, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 13, 2016, 09:32:36 PM
Here are my thoughts from Heaven, Yes - Hell, No. My coverage of the Gospel of Matthew is not yet posted here in Tentmaker.
...He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9) The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same. Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd. It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life. As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...
Laz, I have enjoyed your whole series, and think you've got some good insight with your conclusion.
I remember looking in to it a little bit in the past, and finding that there was quite an emphasis put on the importance of 'proper' burial for the Jews.
I just did a quick Google search for a refresher and my first hit was a sight about Jewish law concerning this subject. One of the things that jumped out at me (in relation to Joeteekay's quoted Matthew verses) was: "According to Jewish law, a Jew is to be buried as he was born - complete with all his limbs and organs. The human body is considered as sacred in death as it was in life as it contained a G‑dly soul. He must be buried in a traditional grave in the ground, so that the body may return to the earth."
As a side, this website also mentioned the importance of immediate burial (something I've wondered about re: Ananias & Sapphira)
[Act 5:5-10 KJV] 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him]. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.
It's a very quick read if anyone is interested: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367836/jewish/Basic-Laws.htm
Blessings all,
Pat
:dsunny:
Quote from: joeteekay on January 13, 2016, 09:20:14 PM
The only places in scripture where the words "worm shall not die" and "worm dieth not" are these:
In the Old Testament
Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
In the New Testament only spoken by Jesus Christ:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna) fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
In the Old Testament the reference in Isaiah 66 is to Gehenna, and that is literal. Gehenna, the word hell (Gehenna really) is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad. A real place, yes a terrible place ititially of human sacrifice and eventually a garbage dump.
In the New Testament, only spoken by Jesus and only found in Mark (9: 43-48). I believe most of us believe that the Gehenna Christ was referring too was a spiritual fire for judgement (chastisement). if Christ's references to Gehenna were always in a spiritual context, then why does He make reference to the phrase " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
The verses in Mark 9 referring to the worm are either:
1 spurious
2 literal (which I doubt)
3 spiritual (deeper meaning about this fire-proof worm) ???
4 idiom?
I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained. Hebrew scholars amongst us may explain if it can just be an idiom?
Previous posts:
Regarding Mark Chapter 9 - "Unquenchable Fire"
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:40 AM »
Re: Isaiah 66:24
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »
Re: Isaiah 66
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:54 PM »
Members thoughts would be appreciated.
:Peace2: :dsunny:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 14, 2016, 06:01:36 PM
:cloud9: Interesting side note.....a worm was used by them to make the dye color red....
Yes they sure are Bex ,
I love the analogy with the scarlet/ worm interchangeable words for the same meaning[scarlet and worm are the same ] in the Word that Marie brought out , I do believe it is the worm Jacob , whom does not die , but name is changed to Israel whom GOD PREVAILS ..
I took this little diddy as literal being God gets the Victory over Jacobs circumstances as well as God has veiled him from the beginning not being able to see [carnal minded ] so faith would prevail , walking by faith not by sight :winkgrin: faith is what heals and the things of miracles are done, the increase of God , there is no earthy reason for this to happen , It is God doing the works
Marie
QuoteWow.. I never read this before, interesting...
"the worm "coccus ilicis" ++++
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young,
she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again.
The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle.
As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms,
the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding His precious blood that He might "bring many sons unto glory" (Heb. 2:"
I love also how Mary[virgin mind conceives , by the seed /word of God , though the Holy Spirit ], seeing her son die would also pierce her own being also
Wisdom is justified of her children , though birthing would she be saved ... her children being that proof of the fruit born of Holy Spirit promise of inheritance
Luke 2 Young's Literal Translation
(and also thine own life / soul
shall a sword pass through) -- that the reasonings of many hearts may be revealed.'
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 13, 2016, 09:32:36 PM
As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...
"
better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial... and instead of going on living life without committing the crime(s)
Case in point? notice the previous verse (42) "..whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."
(43) "And" (or therefore,) "if thy hand may cause thee to stumble"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 13, 2016, 09:32:36 PM
no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd. It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life
:iagree:
____________________
The isa3 interlinear says it like this "
ideal it is being you maimed to be into coming into the life or the two hands having to be from coming into the gehenna into the fire the unextinguished"
The metaphor also -
unextinguished because as long as there is anything to consume, the fire will burn? ..like fire does..
Isaiah 25:4 & 12 -
4
"For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall."
12 "
And the fortress of" (rebellion?) "the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust."
reduced to dust.. no more fire nor 'flame' as there's nothing any more, to burn..
Personally, I believe that the reference to Gehenna is as symbolic as the references to chopping off body parts and salt. In other words, I don't believe that Gehenna should be taken literally as a burial warning because I think the whole thing is a symbol from beginning to end.
Mark 9
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 44 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 46 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
49 Everyone will be salted with fire. 50 "Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other."
The thing that catches my eye is how Jesus says that EVERYONE will be salted (flavored) with fire (destruction), meaning either just body parts, or the whole body, but that salt is GOOD. So, the destruction is good even if there is an aspect of it we'd want to avoid. The flavoring aspect is still part of the fire process.
Apostle James connects the fire of Gehenna with sin, which is why I think Jesus is telling them to throw the appendages outside. "Nothing unclean may enter." Or, the whole body goes. Apostle James says if we don't control the fiery tongue it leads to a forest fire and consumes our whole self.
James 3
6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire of Gehenna.
The tongue may be speaking hatred against a brother, then suddenly your whole body is committed to planning and executing his murder. I think that is what Apostle James had in mind. So when Jesus says cut off your parts rather than the whole body being set on fire, I think it's what Paul was saying when he said "Judge yourselves now, so that you will not be judged with the world."
The Romans 1 judgment of turning man over to his sinful desires is like how Babylon was a club in God's hand. There's a unification aspect to Babylon and God when he decides to use it as a judgment. Same thing goes for sin, I think.
What it leads to is SALT. Repentance. God leading one to the end of himself unto humility. We can avoid a tough road like that by "cutting" off our appendages and leaving ourselves "blind" to what offends us so that we are not judged with the rest of the world.
The thread is making me ponder the relevance(? for lack of a better word right now) of gehenna which the aramaic says is "Hebrew ravine of Hinnom" and why it is used.. I do know horrible things went on in that valley.. :Chinscratch:
..and are prophesied to go on there.. i.e., the last battle
It's connected to idol worship and human sacrifice in Israel's history. I think the spiritual significance has to do with the idolatry of the self. That's what a life wholly dedicated to sin is and leads to death, as though one is sacrificing himself to a false god when he idolizes the self. I think this is why Jesus asked the Pharisees how they thought they could escape gehenna, since they rejected the healer.
I think that one thing Jesus makes clear is that destruction is inevitable. Something will be destroyed. Either our offensive parts or the old man will destroy himself by his own actions and rise again through repentance. Either way sin will be destroyed which is why it is a salting process. :2c:
Amen Seth! :iagree: and thank the Lord!! :smile:
The posts on this thread have given me more to think about. The Gehenna Christ was referring to was the spiritual fire of God (Heb 12:29). Its purpose is to chastise and purify us. He was speaking to His disciples , a part of the sermon on the mount, in His comments on Gehenna. They apply to us today. The only other time He spoke the word was when addressing the Pharisees.
It is interesting that the work of Professor C. Tischendorf resulted in him concluding that the following verses in that section of Mark were spurious:
Mark 9:44 This entire verse
Mark 9:45 into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46 This entire verse
Mark 9:47 fire
Mark 9:49 and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt
Nevertheless He did say in Mark 9:47-48 that Gehenna is where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna)fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
I look at this worm and fire in this way:
The worm destroys decaying flesh of a dead person. :eek: We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.
Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The Gehenna fire will not be quenched until all the hay, stubble and wood are all burned away, leaving only the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones.
My 2 cents. :2c:
This phrase in Mark 9 is one of the most commonly cited difficult verses regarding the duration of hell, "Now if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter maimed into life than having two hands going to Gehenna, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched".
First, it is certain that in Mark 9 the Messiah Yahshua quotes directly from Isaiah 66:24. That is comforting even by itself, because most scholars agree Isaiah 66:24 refers to the 1000-year millennial reign, which is a limited time period (or, age). The reason scholars say this passage ('the worm does not die') applies to the millennial reign is because Isaiah 65 and Isaiah 66 are read together as a complete prophecy, such that Isaiah 66 completes the prophecy of Isaiah 65.
But what if the scholars are wrong. So let's analyze all possible options here to be certain, so we don't hang our hat on just an eschatological interpretation. Indeed it is the literal text of the bible that is the standard for truth. And fortunately, when we examine all options in the literal text, we see the case is even stronger that torment is finite:
Option 1 is that 'the worm does not die' in the millennial reign.
Option 2 is that it 'does not die' in some other time.
Option 3 is that it 'does not die' for infinite time.
For starters, Option 3 (infinite time) is flawed because the literal text does not use the word "ever" or "infinite" or "eternal" or any other words to suggest infinite time or eternal time. Indeed, there is no reason for scholars to insert such limitless words into Mark 9, or insert any words into the bible, just for the passage to make sense. And as my bible study (http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/preacher-man-hell-mistranslation/) emphasizes repeatedly, there is no bible text that says sinners will never die. Indeed, the bible says the opposite, repeatedly – that the wage of sin is death, and that evil doers are utterly extinguished (often quickly, like dry grass in a fire).
Moreover, the bible repeatedly has instances where a statement appears open-ended at first, but is then qualified. Here, the verse is qualified in Mark 9:49, where the Messiah emphasizes that, "For any in the fire, they will be destroyed."
I love reading the literal text in the language spoken in the first century Israel by the Messiah Yahshua, because the literal text confirms this position (as does the Hebrew & Greek).
The Aramaic root word here is Khlm, meaning "to destroy or vaporize". Incidentally, it also means "salt", which is why the verse is an obvious wordplay in the Aramaic, "For any in the fire, they will be destroyed. And every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt." The poster above, Seth, highlighted this context, which was nice to read.
Now, does salt continue for infinite time? No, it is a simple element NaCl (sodium chloride is table salt), or just Na is sodium. Table salt is only dissolved into separate elements Na and Cl by a sufficiently hot fire -- it will produce a steady orange flame because of the Na+ ions. Now, if one throws a lot of salt on a small fire, the table salt will act as a fire extinguisher. But in the gospel of Mark it says plainly that this fire does not go out. So this is indeed a large fire, which emphasizes even more that this salt that has lost its flavor will be utterly vaporized. And if the fire is a nuclear fire, then the Na and Cl can be deconstructed even further in the vaporizing.
Students interested in further study here should also research the chemical mechanisms by which salt loses its flavor, and how the salt in Israel's Dead Sea (with which the disciples were most accustomed) was often tainted by chemical mixing and therefore not a desirable flavor for food.
Another study item for students here is the root word for "worm" (ThlEa, which also means "to tear apart". If the 'tearing part' does not end one's torments, that is indeed a kind of elongated torment. But again, the text does not specify the time duration of the torment here, so context is key. And indeed, in the conclusion of this verse at Mark 9:49, the Messiah emphasizes the outcome after the torment is ultimately destruction, "For any in the fire, they will be destroyed."
Now let's look at Option 1 ( 'the worm does not die' in the millennial reign)... again, the reason scholars say this passage ('the worm does not die') applies to the millennial reign is because Isaiah 65 and Isaiah 66 are read together as a complete prophecy, such that Isaiah 66 completes the prophecy of Isaiah 65. And Isaiah 65:17-25 describes quite well what we would consider the millennial reign. This eschatological argument is relatively persuasive when you read the text in Hebrew, but it's not exactly bullet proof, because there are parts of Isaiah 65 and 66 that are so interpretive that it amounts to guessing whether they actually describe the millennial reign or some other time. I can provide examples if you like.
But in any event, if this option 1 is correct, then during this limited time (1,000 years), some evildoers are confined to a hell (or prison) that none may escape during that limited time, rather than a place of infinite torture.
Indeed this Option 1 further harmonizes with Revelation 20 because, at the end of a limited time (1,000 years), something eventful should happen, and accordingly Satan would be released as described in Revelation 20:7.
Now let's examine Option 2 (the worm 'does not die' in some other time)... It may be that a type of Gehenna lake of fire actually does continue into the next world/age, but there is still no bible text that says the next world/age continues infinitely, or that sinners will never die. Again, the bible says the opposite – that the wage of sin is death, and that evil doers are utterly extinguished.
For example, a prison institution can exist for 7,000 years (an entire macro-age) – people die within the institution every day while new people arrive every day as well. Describing this prison, one would say literally that the presence of the prisoners is not quenched and the prison is not extinguished in the age. So the worm in this interpretation would be the continual influx of new prisoners (the new logs for the fire), and the prison itself would be the fire that needs a continual influx of fuel so it is not extinguished.
If someone wanted to insist that each individual prisoner (each burning log) lives infinitely because his soul is eternal or infinite, then they would actually need to use different and explicit language to say that, and again, not only does the literal text not say that, but if they did add that text to the bible then they would be contradicting all the other parts of the bible that say the wage of sin is death, and that evil doers are utterly extinguished. See my article & video for scriptural cites: Preacher Man – Get the Mistranslation Out of Hell! (http://www.logicalhierarchy.com/blog/preacher-man-hell-mistranslation/)
Indeed, in further support for option 2 is the fact that this place of torment is discussed collectively for the experiences of prisoners in the plural, rather than individually for the experience of each sinner individually. Perhaps the reason is that sin is often accomplished or magnified through collective institutions (such as nations at war, corporations destroying the earth) to accomplish the greatest torment.
The text does not say that this fixed and limited place called Gehenna continues for eternity. It simply states that while this place Gehenna exists, worms do not die and fires are not extinguished. Gehenna was and is a place on earth. It had a fire burning there approximately 2,000 years ago, but the fire was extinguished at the end of an age (around the end of the Israeli nation). How much more will Gehenna no longer exist when this world passes away, and the Father provides a new earth and new heaven?
1,000 years is a long time though, and to be taken very seriously even if only a worm suffers there. It seems cruel and unusual to even suggest that justice requires tormenting a worm for 1,000 years. Indeed, it should be noted here that the only requirement is that smoke goes up for 1,000 years. That does not mean that each person or their worm is burned for exactly 1,000 years. Rather, it may be that some are like straw burned in 10 seconds, and others are like logs burned for 2 hours, and when you put all those people in order, like a worm or a wave, then the collective worm spans more time than any one person's segment of that worm. Indeed, in 2 Peter, the apostle is discussing hell and he distinguishes that some are tormented worse than others. Moreover, the word ymTha "lake" in "lake of fire" refers to a small lake or shallow portion of a larger lake.
Again, there is no requirement that all of the fuel (or souls) be thrown on the fire at once. Just as men keep fires on earth, it is common to maintain them in stages or proportionally. Scholars estimate that the number of people that have ever lived on earth is approximately 100 billion. Just hypothetically, if 1/10th of those people descended to a furnace of torment, and each person represented one log, then it would create a 10-billion log fire. Assuming a 1,000 year-burn time (per Isaiah 34:9), the lake of fire would need to consume 3-logs per second. Now, the point here isn't to think we can calculate the burn rate in hell; as that would be silly. Rather, what I'm doing is appealing to one's sense of logic and maturity, rather than the unwarranted childhood fear of an 'everlasting timeout' somehow morphed into the unwarranted dogmatic fear of 'everlasting hell'.
I hope this response has been helpful.
Greg
Interesting read, and while I was reading it occurred to me an option 4. Option 4 is that the worm does not die and the fire does not go out, but that human beings are not subjected to it forever, but may escape. I believe there is a correlation between the LOF and Gehenna fire to verses like these:
Isaiah 9
18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire;
it consumes briers and thorns,
it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.
19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
In that symbolic context, I could see that when the scripture says that the fire is unquenchable, it means that sin is never satiated. One must always have more, more, more, and the only way out of such an unquenchable file (which I believe is also purifying) is an escape toward the City of God where the water of life is. So, while one is toiling in such a fire as "wickedness burns" the fire weakens the strength of whoever is in it until they seek escape.
Psalm 107
10 Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,
prisoners suffering in iron chains,
11 because they rebelled against God's commands
and despised the plans of the Most High.
12 So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
13 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
14 He brought them out of darkness, the utter darkness,
and broke away their chains.
17 Some became fools through their rebellious ways
and suffered affliction because of their iniquities.
18 They loathed all food
and drew near the gates of death.
19 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
20 He sent out his word and healed them;
he rescued them from the grave.
21 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind.
22 Let them sacrifice thank offerings
and tell of his works with songs of joy.
Yes, the symbolism of those passages is striking in Isaiah and the Psalm.
Fortunately, when we read in Hebrew all of the Old Testament passages that describe the perpetual and continuing glory of the Father who transcends ages and worlds, we can see clearly the contrast in words -- that is, different words (finite words, non-perpetual words, limited words) are used to describe the punishment of the wicked. And the outcome for the wicked, the unredeemed portion, is always the same: death, destruction, annihilation, they exist no more, etc.
That is why the literal text of the bible is so comforting here. It confirms that complete justice will be done. Each individual's sin is finite, each individual's punishment is finite. It is fundamentally important to know the Father is justice and works justice.
The way I look at and understand Gehenna with reference to the Isaiah scripture I can best describe with an example.
Drug use is always unquenchable but people are not always drug users.
I see the comment about unquenchable fire as a statement on insatiable quality of sin, not necessarily an external thing.
Quote from: Seth on January 15, 2016, 10:52:15 PM
The way I look at and understand Gehenna with reference to the Isaiah scripture I can best describe with an example.
Drug use is always unquenchable but people are not always drug users.
I see the comment about unquenchable fire as a statement on insatiable quality of sin, not necessarily an external thing.
Perhaps you're right, but you're going to need a bible citation that worm=sin.
Isaiah 66:24 says that worm=dead body.
Isaiah 41:14 says that worm=Jacob, and that Jacob=men of Israel.
Job 25:6 says that worm=son of man
Psalm 22:6 says that worm=not a man, but a reproach of the children of men and despised of the people.
So, we put it all together, and worm= a dead body, even a dead man walking.
But what causes death? Sin, so perhaps it will not be difficult to find a bible citation to support you after all, Seth.
In nature, the crimson worm is a useful example for what the Messiah Yahshua accomplished at Calvary to help Jacob the worm...
Take a look at the latter half of that Isaiah 9 passage I posted.
This Hebrew expression kaSh rShEah in Isaiah 9:18 means "like/as fire wickedness" . So what is burning is like/as fire wickedness. And then in the next verse of Isaiah, 9:19, we read that it is "the people" who are burned, "In the fury of the Lord of Hosts, the land is darkened, and shall be the people as/like the fuel of the fire."
So, Seth, the wickedness and the people together go to the fire, not just the wickedness. In the bible, the wickedness is in the people, not outside of them. See also Isaiah 9:5, "For every battle of the warrior in the tumult and garments rolled in blood shall be to the burning fuel of fire." Here is another example in this chapter of Isaiah where a physical object (a garment) is burning in the fire. Sin is not so much a physical object, but rather a condition. That condition attaches to a physical object.
Indeed, an even more explicit use of the Hebrew word rShEah ("wickedness") (i.e., without the "like"), is found in Malachi 4:1, "For behold, the days that shall burn as an oven, and shall be all the proud that all do rShEah ("wickedly") chaff, and shall burn them up, the day that comes, said the Lord of Hosts, that not shall it leave like root or branch."
What is being utterly destroyed here in Malachi 4:1 is "all working wickedly", which refers to people who work wickedly, rather than just the wicked deeds themselves. If you wanted to make the case that 'only sin' is destroyed, then you would need to go back through the entire bible and creatively translate the Hebrew phrase kl EaShh ("all who work") so it never refers to people themselves, which of course, you could not do.
So again, the literal Hebrew provides the most accurate answer here, and it is comforting because the literal text of Malachi 4:1 is another great example that the wicked are utterly annihilated. There is neither a root nor a branch that survives to be tormented infinitely or perpetually. The wicked are utterly destroyed and are no more.
Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."
Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."
Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out." Because the evil have "no future", they categorically they cannot experience an eternal or everlasting future in hell.
In the Psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6). And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16. David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38). The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.
Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."
Matthew 13:40, "As therefore the weeds are picked out and burned in the fire, so it will be in the end of this world/age." Note the phrase here in the literal text of the gospel bShulmh dEalma hna ("in the end of this world/age"). If the punishment were everlasting, this would have been an excellent time for the Messiah to emphasize that, which of course he did not. He confirmed that the Father is just and merciful.
Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."
Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."
Matthew 9:13, "Go learn from this, that I seek mercy and not sacrifice."
Matthew 12:7, "If only you would have known that I desire mercy and not sacrifice."
Ecclesiastes 12:7, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Eloha who gave it."
Ecclesiastes 3:20, "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."
Quote from: joeteekay on January 15, 2016, 07:30:42 PM
The posts on this thread have given me more to think about. The Gehenna Christ was referring to was the spiritual fire of God (Heb 12:29). Its purpose is to chastise and purify us. He was speaking to His disciples , a part of the sermon on the mount, in His comments on Gehenna. They apply to us today. The only other time He spoke the word was when addressing the Pharisees.
It is interesting that the work of Professor C. Tischendorf resulted in him concluding that the following verses in that section of Mark were spurious:
Mark 9:44 This entire verse
Mark 9:45 into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46 This entire verse
Mark 9:47 fire
Mark 9:49 and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt
Nevertheless He did say in Mark 9:47-48 that Gehenna is where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna)fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
I look at this worm and fire in this way:
The worm destroys decaying flesh of a dead person. :eek: We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.
Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The Gehenna fire will not be quenched until all the hay, stubble and wood are all burned away, leaving only the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones.
My 2 cents. :2c:
:dsunny:
Quote from: greg on January 16, 2016, 06:04:40 PM
This Hebrew expression kaSh rShEah in Isaiah 9:18 means "like/as fire wickedness" . So what is burning is like/as fire wickedness. And then in the next verse of Isaiah, 9:19, we read that it is "the people" who are burned, "In the fury of the Lord of Hosts, the land is darkened, and shall be the people as/like the fuel of the fire."
So, Seth, the wickedness and the people together go to the fire, not just the wickedness. In the bible, the wickedness is in the people, not outside of them. See also Isaiah 9:5, "For every battle of the warrior in the tumult and garments rolled in blood shall be to the burning fuel of fire." Here is another example in this chapter of Isaiah where a physical object (a garment) is burning in the fire. Sin is not so much a physical object, but rather a condition. That condition attaches to a physical object.
This is exactly what makes a symbol a symbol. The very purpose of using external objects to represent internal conditions reflects the very nature of symbolism. A symbol is not meant to behave EXACTLY like the thing it symbolizes but to reflect certain relevant aspects of it, such as how the damaging painful aspects of sin are reflected in the damaging and painful aspects of fire, and how the corrosive aspect of sin is reflected in the corrosive aspect of the worm.
Also, how they can be thrown in with eachother, and thus thrown into an external spiritual fire, while also contributing to the blaze with their own wickedness from within. It goes along with what Paul said that the shadows are not the VERY thing.
"Like/as fire wickedness" means wickedness is like fire. I don't have a problem with the translation at all. You could translate it as "like/as fire, wickedness" and it means the same thing. It's a comparison but not of all aspects, just certain relevant ones.
The people are fuel for the fire in the sense that their wickedness increases, so that their inner desires bring forth more sin and the wickedness consumes them further.
Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me. "They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.
Their hearts are like an oven; they approach him with intrigue. Their passion smolders all night; in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.
All of them are hot as an oven; they devour their rulers. All their kings fall, and none of them calls on me.
So, when a person is thrown into the fire in this above sense, it would mean to join other people in their sinful behaviors and consume eachother. That doesn't meant that the fire does not come from within, but that it also reaches a place of externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants.
Quote
So again, the literal Hebrew provides the most accurate answer here, and it is comforting because the literal text of Malachi 4:1 is another great example that the wicked are utterly annihilated. There is neither a root nor a branch that survives to be tormented infinitely or perpetually. The wicked are utterly destroyed and are no more.
I'm sure we could agree that comfort doesn't define truth. In other words, something may be true or untrue whether it is comforting or not. If it's a matter of people being burned alive, that brings me no comfort. If it's a matter of the judgment being finite, we both are talking about a finite judgment anyway, so nothing I have said precludes that.
Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well.
Quote from: Seth on January 16, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
This is exactly what makes a symbol a symbol. The very purpose of using external objects to represent internal conditions reflects the very nature of symbolism. A symbol is not meant to behave EXACTLY like the thing it symbolizes but to reflect certain relevant aspects of it, such as how the damaging painful aspects of sin are reflected in the damaging and painful aspects of fire, and how the corrosive aspect of sin is reflected in the corrosive aspect of the worm.
Also, how they can be thrown in with eachother, and thus thrown into an external spiritual fire, while also contributing to the blaze with their own wickedness from within. It goes along with what Paul said that the shadows are not the VERY thing.
Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well.
I agree Seth :thumbsup:
Matthew 8:29-31 "And they [demons] cried out and they were saying, 'What do we have to do with you, Yeshua, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us?'... And those demons were begging him and saying, 'If you cast us out, allow us to go into the herd of pigs.'"
Seth, were these demons afraid of the Messiah Yahshua because an 'internal fire of wickedness inside their possessed man' was somehow preferable to an 'internal fire of wickedness inside the neighboring pigs'? Quite unlikely. I think they were worried that the Messiah was going to cast them to a different place altogether, a fire or prison not from this world. Indeed, those pigs went right off the cliff in the next verse, a gruesome bloody mess that scared the Gadarenes -- that message from Matthew 8 was gruesome for a reason.
Matthew 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send his Angels and they will select from his Kingdom all of those stumbling blocks and all of those evil doers. And they will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Here we see another literal example of burning creatures, for only creatures weep and gnash teeth. I understand this passage too can be read symbolically for purposes of an apologetic, but allow me to make another strong point first...
Here on earth, the Father created us inside a wild, often gruesome world filled with fleshly creatures, and a huge portion of the bible is devoted to the way those creatures are killed, eaten, burned, sacrificed, and suffer. Yes, suffer. Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things."
I would love to get behind your very intellectual theory, Seth, that flesh does not suffer in another world because of some "externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants." But I am compelled to read the text literally, and that literal text describes graphic torment of men, albeit limited & finite torment. Key points: death is ugly, often painful, and all flesh gets what is coming to it ultimately in this world or the next.
Revelation 21:8, "But to the timid, the unbelievers, the evil, the defiled, murderers, sorcerers, whores, idol worshipers and all liars: their part is in the burning Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is the second death."
Proverbs 25:22, "For coals you are putting on his head, And YHWH gives recompense to you."
Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die."
Jeremiah 17:10, "I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."
The Father even allowed the Messiah, His Son, to be crucified, and that Son descended to preach to spirits in prison. It may shock us how real things get from time-to-time.
I do appreciate your conclusion here, "Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well." Fair enough, Seth.
I also take comfort in the way the bible says that the Creator abhors human sacrifice. See examples in Deuteronomy 12:31; 2 Kings 16:3, 2 Kings 17:16, 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Psalm 106:34-39; Jeremiah 7:31, Jeremiah 19:5, Jeremiah 32:35.
Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."
Quote from: greg on January 17, 2016, 01:09:07 AM
Matthew 8:29-31 "And they [demons] cried out and they were saying, 'What do we have to do with you, Yeshua, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us?'... And those demons were begging him and saying, 'If you cast us out, allow us to go into the herd of pigs.'"
Seth, were these demons afraid of the Messiah Yahshua because an 'internal fire of wickedness inside their possessed man' was somehow preferable to an 'internal fire of wickedness inside the neighboring pigs'?
The scripture doesn't say. It only says that they CAN be tormented, and expected to be, but not that they were aware of what they would be tormented by. It's completely likely from my perspective that they could be worried about a certain torment but not understanding that their torment could be the result of their own wickedness reversed upon themselves.
QuoteMatthew 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send his Angels and they will select from his Kingdom all of those stumbling blocks and all of those evil doers. And they will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Here we see another literal example of burning creatures, for only creatures weep and gnash teeth. I understand this passage too can be read symbolically for purposes of an apologetic, but allow me to make another strong point first...
Here on earth, the Father created us inside a wild, often gruesome world filled with fleshly creatures, and a huge portion of the bible is devoted to the way those creatures are killed, eaten, burned, sacrificed, and suffer. Yes, suffer. Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things."
I would love to get behind your very intellectual theory, Seth, that flesh does not suffer in another world because of some "externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants." But I am compelled to read the text literally, and that literal text describes graphic torment of men, albeit limited & finite torment. Key points: death is ugly, often painful, and all flesh gets what is coming to it ultimately in this world or the next.
Greg, there's never a point that I said that suffering isn't part of judgment. Take for example the Holocaust. I see that as an example of sin externalized and how it creates suffering. The wickedness that Hitler perpetrated on his victims also brought the roof down upon himself as he was consumed by the war he started.
Take another example, the Prodigal Son. His wickedness resulted in suffering, literal hunger, literal pain. And that caused his repentance. I would see the Prodigal Son's experience in relationship to the image of how that wickedness burns like a fire and causes, therefore, destruction and suffering. I don't know anywhere where I said "
that flesh does not suffer in another world because of some "externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants." Where did I ever say that? I only said that I believe that the fire is symbolic, not that what it symbolizes does not cause suffering.
I also think there is something to be said about the consistency of viewing it symbolically within the context of the verse:
Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off (spiritual involving sin): it is better for thee to enter into life maimed (spiritually), than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire (spiritual involving sin) that never shall be quenched
Rather than
Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off (spiritual involving sin): it is better for thee to enter into life maimed (spiritually), than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire (suddenly literal?) that never shall be quenched
At the end of the day, this is all a matter of our interpretation, but I do like the consistency of the previous interpretation, especially since Jesus always spoke in parables to HIDE meaning. That suggests to me that a literal interpretation runs against his consistent use of using symbolic language to hold back revealing mysteries for the time.
QuoteThe Father even allowed the Messiah, His Son, to be crucified, and that Son descended to preach to spirits in prison. It may shock us how real things get from time-to-time.
Doesn't shock me in the least. :dontknow:
QuoteI do appreciate your conclusion here, "Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well." Fair enough, Seth.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 16, 2016, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on January 15, 2016, 07:30:42 PM
The posts on this thread have given me more to think about. The Gehenna Christ was referring to was the spiritual fire of God (Heb 12:29). Its purpose is to chastise and purify us. He was speaking to His disciples , a part of the sermon on the mount, in His comments on Gehenna. They apply to us today. The only other time He spoke the word was when addressing the Pharisees.
It is interesting that the work of Professor C. Tischendorf resulted in him concluding that the following verses in that section of Mark were spurious:
Mark 9:44 This entire verse
Mark 9:45 into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46 This entire verse
Mark 9:47 fire
Mark 9:49 and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt
Nevertheless He did say in Mark 9:47-48 that Gehenna is where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna)fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
I look at this worm and fire in this way:
The worm destroys decaying flesh of a dead person. :eek: We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.
Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The Gehenna fire will not be quenched until all the hay, stubble and wood are all burned away, leaving only the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones.
My 2 cents. :2c:
:dsunny:
You have some excellent studies Joeteekay ,
I so enjoy your digging in ! You have given much to consider , and cannot stop thinking about this study ..
Another thing about the worms that came to mind , because its on my mind since you made this post
When you said
the worms eat the decaying flesh of the dead person We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed. I thought about Paul's saying , Turn one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh , so in the DAY OF THE LORD his spirit will be saved ..
Now satan was contending with Michael over the Body of Moses , this is the body of death being the ministration of death where worms are eating this decaying flesh ,, and saying the LORD REBUKE you satan , what is this is the day old manna with worms in it ? What id Jesus is the bread of Heaven that is to be eaten now ? Jesus said eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life in you ..
Just considering it ! God bless you :friendstu:
to me 'the worm dieth not' is more about about the church stumbling..and causing to stumble those believing in Him.
..the disciples had been disturbed about others..who were not part of their little intimate group..casting out demons in Jesus name.
...and were concerned about what they should do about it. He said..'if they are for us..they are not against us"
.......God often does not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing...and this is exactly what the disciples were facing....
what were these other people doing in the name of Christ? Jesus was speaking about corruption entering the church body
and the church dying and becoming a stink...due to stumbling other's that believe on Jesus name..because they do not know what
God is doing in that body part. No man is to 'Lord it over' some other man's faith....Christ body part's right hand,eyes,feet etc
to 'cut it off' means to cut off the offended body member/Blessed is he who is not offended in me...that offenses not corrupt
the body of faith/believers in Christ Jesus. thus..having a name that you are alive[faith in Jesus Christ] but are dead......strengthen
the things that remain[faith hope and love] the letter to the church in Sardis also address's His coming like a theif in the night..
and..is the same as the hour of trial....the prince of this world's hour..where he crucifies Jesus Christ...putting to death the heir
that he may keep his position...only to find that in crucifying Christ..his house has been desolated...thus..Christ has come unto
him as a thief in the night...when the church went out with swords etc to take custody of Him and trial and put to death...Jesus said.
'Have you come out with swords against me as if I am a thief?.
so..if a member of Christ's body is doing something [miracles] that you don't understand[just as the church leaders did not
understand Jesus and His miracles in their day] Blessed you are if you are not offended...because the offended body part will be
cut off in death! that those who live by faith in Christ may enter life!
So true Shelia ,
The two covenants Law of Moses being weak because of the flesh ,an eye for and eye seeking revenge
The Grace of God though Jesus Christ is by Spirit pray for your enemies[ Matt 5 ]
My what a differnce ........
Vengeance is mins says the Lord and I shall repay Romans 12
Forgiveness
...18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written,
"VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
20"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."...
This being the fire of Love not hate ...
Quoteso..if a member of Christ's body is doing something [miracles] that you don't understand[just as the church leaders did not
understand Jesus and His miracles in their day]
Yes calling good evil and doing evil good , because they were going to stop those miracles with judgment against them
They Called Jesus works of satan and they will do exactly the same to you ,,, Jesus said they hated me without a cause , and expect this to happen to you , taking up your cross and following the Lord
Matt 24 9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations
because of My name. 10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another....
I believe the website below explains gives a good explanation for this.
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/their-worm-dieth-not
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on January 17, 2016, 07:25:57 PM
I believe the website below explains gives a good explanation for this.
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/their-worm-dieth-not
..amen.. I especially agree with -
"
Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were "not quenched," was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed. To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture.
The question may now be asked: If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, it will not. A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago. If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago was still burning? No, you would simply understand that the fire raged until it had devoured everything within reach. Common knowledge makes unnecessary the additional statement that the fire itself then died down.
....The Lord through Jeremiah declared to the ancient Jews, "If you will not hearken unto me, ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof [of Jerusalem], and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." Jeremiah 17:27. (In the Septuagint the very same Greek root is here used for "quenched" as in Mark 9.) In 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 we read of the literal fulfillment of this prophecy when the Babylonians put the torch to the city. Is that fire still burning?
...The Bible does not say that the judgment fires will burn endlessly, for we read that these fires are due to God's setting ablaze this wicked earth, and that following this conflagration He creates "a new earth." (See 2 Peter 3:7-13 and Revelation 20 and 21.) There must therefore be an end to the fire, else this earth could not be re-created. In other words, the very promise of God to give us a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness is contingent upon there being an end to the judgment fires."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
The worm, imo, is "the body of the sins of the flesh"- or the cumulative sin life of a person. It is not "the worms die not". it is "their worm" dies not.
The worm ourbouros appears in anitiquity in diverse places from Egyptian to Greek to Norse mythology. The snake eating its tail. A perfect picture of the carnal mind.
It was the serpent in the garden, and it is the worm Leviathan that twists and flees in us(Isaiah 26).
The fire is not quenched because the worm still lives. Wherever the worm is there is fire, because God is judging sin, but not in the way we depict it. He is judging sin by the cross of Christ- in other words, sin is overcome by love. "No greater love...."
Peter spoke of feeding our enemies and thus "heaping hot coals upon their heads". These hot coals are the same as the coal that touched the lips of Isaiah, purifying His lips. Jesus has placed all mankind in the fire of His love. Gehenna is the lot of those who resist it.
The worm is also symbolic of the tongue, and the words we have spoken, the trail of our sin. "But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken."(Mt 12:36)
And James speaks of the tongue as a world of evil in ch 3 of his epistle and in chapter three talks of the carnal mind and its arrogance and ambition as "earthly, soulish, demonic"- the worm Ourboros comes to mind. Ourboros is a Greek word BTW.
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell(Gehenna)." (James 3)
"What shall be given to you, and what more shall be done to you, You deceitful tongue? 4Sharp arrows of the warrior, With the burning coals of the broom tree. 5Woe is me, for I sojourn in Meshech, For I dwell among the tents of Kedar!..."(Psalm 120)
As Cain I wander, chased by warriors and arrows and burning coals upon my head, because of my worm. The worm that pokes his head out through my tongue, and who trails back down into the gates of Gehenna. The man of sin. The carnal man.
These were not totally strange concepts in Jesus' day. They were common to the mythologies and cosmologies of the times.
In Isaiah, God called Jacob a worm. Jacob means supplanter, struggler, schemer- which Jacob was until he was broken and became Israel- "joy"
The worm doesnt die as long as we cling to ourselves. At the cross, seeing Jesus portrayed as ultimate love, we release ourselves to Him, aand the worm stops eating itself. We now have the fountain....whenever we fall into old wormy behavior, thoughts- we confess and are forgiven and cleansed.(1 John 1)
Jesus did not say the worm never dies.
He said it never dies in Gehenna. "Where" is the objective term there. Where does the worm not die? In gehenna. How do you get out of Gehenna? Releasing yourself at the cross to the love of Jesus. Every knee shall bow..... All will be reconciled to God...How?, by the blood of His cross. How is the blood applied? Hyssop, the bitter herb. Everyone who has seen Jesus on that cross, in the spirit- knows that bitterness.
He was crucified for me, to save me from my own actions he suffered. He laid down His life for me. That love broke my heart and slew my worm, but that heartbreak must be renewed everyday, or back into gehenna I go ;o) Twisting, turning, burning.
When we leave gehenna the worm lies limp and dead, slain by the living and active two edged sword.
In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it! Is 27
Whenever someone comes into the Day they leave Gehenna, the worm is slain by the two edged sword and fruitfulness begins.
" For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."(Heb 4)
"Everyman's work will be tested by fire for the Day will reveal it." (1 Cor 3)
"On the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ" (Ro 2)
I say this all the time but His eyes are as flames of fire and Hisface is like the Sun shining in its strength and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth.
In Revelation 14:10 you see the devil and His angels are tormented "in the presence of the Lord"
"Do not fear them because every hidden thing will be brought to light" Where, in the light of His presence...before His face, as He sits enthroned.
One who attempts to hold secrets and ambition, and self centerdness in the presence, "before His face" will surely find the worm turning and the fire burning within.
"When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long.
4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.
Selah.
5I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I did not hide;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD";
And You forgave the guilt of my sin. (Ps 32)
That is a spiritual description of the metaphor of the worm and gehenna.
Just outside the walls of Zion, the wall of His love, there is a place by the Gehenna gate where the garbage is burned, and once your garbage is burned- you can come in :o)
"And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,' declares the LORD, 'and I will be its glory within.'(Zec 2:5)
When does Isaiah get "sent"? after the coal touches His lips. His garbage purged.
When does Jacob become Israel? When he is broken. No longer wrestling with God, seeking his own way.
So as far as Gehenna as an actual place in "the other world", "beyond the veil", in "the age to come".... I dont see it. I think it is metaphorical of the nature of an experience that will not be about a place any more than "heaven" is about a place.
It is about the experience of being converted, brought to repentance by the hand of God, His dealings and our self-centeredness- and the consequences of leaving this life while still eating our own tail.
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."...
Those who worship the beast, the carnal man, the dragon have no rest.
"There is no rest", says the Lord, "for the wicked" (Isaiah 48:22)
Isaiah 57:20 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."
IMO, Whatever aionian kolassis will be, it will be an experience of penetrating light, the light of His face, bringing the worm to the surface where it can be seen and dealt with.
"The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it".
Quote from: joeteekay on January 16, 2016, 10:22:34 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 16, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
This is exactly what makes a symbol a symbol. The very purpose of using external objects to represent internal conditions reflects the very nature of symbolism. A symbol is not meant to behave EXACTLY like the thing it symbolizes but to reflect certain relevant aspects of it, such as how the damaging painful aspects of sin are reflected in the damaging and painful aspects of fire, and how the corrosive aspect of sin is reflected in the corrosive aspect of the worm.
Also, how they can be thrown in with eachother, and thus thrown into an external spiritual fire, while also contributing to the blaze with their own wickedness from within. It goes along with what Paul said that the shadows are not the VERY thing.
Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well.
I agree Seth :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!
I thought of this thread - the worm - today when I heard the remark how a virus will continue until there is nothing left for them to eat. They were talking about the Black Death.. Which is how it fizzled out I guess..
I do think however the worms above and below.. as bed beneath and covering over, of Isaiah 14, to represent the grave.. And I think when Jesus said better to cast hand or eye in, was the city dump where criminal's bodies were cremated.. Although "where the worm dies not" I for one would agree is in all likelihood, alluding to deeper spiritual truth concerning the corrosive nature of sin..
Quote from: marie glen on January 19, 2016, 03:29:55 AM
It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!
Yes indeed Marie. And it was good to see EW's comments. He typically gives the big picture, the overview. I tend to look at things as black or white, monochrome. He looks at scriptures in a panoramic way, in technicolour, if you pleae. :banana:
It is a topic that has many nuances, we see things through a glass darkly at this time.
A few more thoughts:
Gehenna under Christ's new covenant is judgement. It is not torture in literal fire. The word should never have been translated "hell," for as we saw, the two words have nothing in common. The literal Gehenna of the Old Testament has long since disappeared. Under the New Covenant It should be recognized as judgement upon God's people to purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them spiritually mature. Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount" to His disciples. This "Gehenna fire" is not for the world of unbelieving sinners, but for His Own disciples, and that includes all who are followers of Christ. That truly is good news.
:thumbsup: Marie and Joeteekay
I think one of the things to keep in mind about Gehenna is that Jesus wants us to keep out of it. He told his disciples to steer well clear of it. So, while I do feel it has purifying properties, destruction is part of purification. I believe the Prodigal Son's experience had purifying properties too. But that doesn't mean I'd want to go through that. So when he tells his disciples to separate their offending parts and throw them into Gehenna, I think that provides a picture of the disciples keeping their distance from it.
Quote from: marie glen on January 19, 2016, 03:29:55 AM
It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!
I thought of this thread - the worm - today when I heard the remark how a virus will continue until there is nothing left for them to eat. They were talking about the Black Death.. Which is how it fizzled out I guess..
I do think however the worms above and below.. as bed beneath and covering over, of Isaiah 14, to represent the grave.. And I think when Jesus said better to cast hand or eye in, was the city dump where criminal's bodies were cremated.. Although "where the worm dies not" I for one would agree is in all likelihood, alluding to deeper spiritual truth concerning the corrosive nature of sin..
I love you sister ,
you have been on fire lately Marie !!!
You make me think !!! I love what you and others share
I agree there might just be a spiritual blessing . meaning to the worms lol
I thought of the valley of dry bones ! Israel being resurrected with a Breath from GOD the Holy Spirit blowing life in them dry bones ..
If the flesh is removed totally , God s way of removing the sin nature [ flesh]
I was reminded of the place of the Skull = Golgotha also
Thank you sister Marie for your contributions to this forum :dsunny:
:HeartThrob:God bless with more of Him
Quote from: joeteekay on January 19, 2016, 05:23:22 AM
Quote from: marie glen on January 19, 2016, 03:29:55 AM
It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!
Yes indeed Marie. And it was good to see EW's comments. He typically gives the big picture, the overview. I tend to look at things as black or white, monochrome. He looks at scriptures in a panoramic way, in technicolour, if you pleae. :banana:
It is a topic that has many nuances, we see things through a glass darkly at this time.
A few more thoughts:
Gehenna under Christ's new covenant is judgement. It is not torture in literal fire. The word should never have been translated "hell," for as we saw, the two words have nothing in common. The literal Gehenna of the Old Testament has long since disappeared. Under the New Covenant It should be recognized as judgement upon God's people to purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them spiritually mature. Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount" to His disciples. This "Gehenna fire" is not for the world of unbelieving sinners, but for His Own disciples, and that includes all who are followers of Christ. That truly is good news.
I certainly agree :iagree:
with that Joe and Seth's posts too ....
John gives us both the natural and spiritual message ...
Joe there is a language of Spiritual meanings also that some of us tend to love and share also , that should be considered worthy of your thoughts
and consideration , God does bless us wherever we are at and receiving of HIM
Just saying all things work together for the good OF ALL whom LOVE GOD ,, :HeartThrob:
Romans 8
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
This has been the place of Church and true fellowship for many years now , and love the fact , that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He continues to be in our midst !!!
:dsunny: May the day spring from on High continue to shine upon us from heaven by the tender mercies of God :HeartThrob:
interesting aside Ecc 7;1 a good name is better then ointment,and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
concerning the people God takes as a special possesion in this earth...the desire of hearing 'well done,you have been faithful..'
and the reward of God is paramount. The desiring of being a vessel for honorable purpose...... It was said of Judas 'better off
having not been born.".then to have been a vessel of dishonour... So,I feel what Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees
as to their lot..in Gehenna and an ignoble death as refuse and stench unto the Lord...as having a reference to this very thing.
let another take his office...the wicked servant,unfaithful etc...dishonour..rebuke instead of commendation.
for this is the very image and likeness of the corrupt image...and loss is associated with it. the rich man that stored up but did not
consider God. the shepherd that feeds only himself..the servant that beats members of the household, the parable of the talents
also further expounds on this theme.
wormy mann a[a wormy man] give us each day our daily bread.....TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE...I AM the true bread from heaven
...a day and an hour you do not know..like a thief in the night...and your house desolate/loss..of man born of woman..there is
none greater then John the Baptist..but he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater then he. I must decrease..but He
must increase[of the INCREASING OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END. That stone must become a mountain and fill the
whole earth! to the SALVATION OF ALL MEN.
in the revelation of Christ an angel must cast a great burned out mountain[of curses] into the sea!!! and that stone must
become a mountain that grows and fills the whole earth!!!!!! the Mountain of Blessing! of which all shall say 'Let us go UP unto the
Mountain of the Lord!"[far below the valley of Gehenna where their worm dieth not] you who have come up here! and heard
the thoughts of Him whose thoughts are higher..look down on /upon those whose worm dieth not..whose mouth is an open grave
in their testimony..and wormy mann a under the law and ministry of death!
In Revelation 4:4, notice the word 'skulls', "And around the throne, twenty four thrones, and upon those thrones, twenty four elders who sat wearing white garments and crowns of gold upon their skulls."
When we envision a mighty ruler who stations talking skulls around his throne, what kind of feeling do we get? Fuzzy? No. Frightened? Yes.
Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things."
I do appreciate that each person will have their own view of the character of Yahweh as judge and executioner.
As for me, I think that if we spend enough time with our eyes open on earth, it is not difficult to be floored psychologically by the cruelty of nature. I heard recently about a little deer that got stuck in a guy's fence; when the guy arrived on the scene he saw his dog had been eating it from the legs upward. What is the sense of that, the slow torment of an innocent creature. Seth mentioned the Jewish Holocaust in an earlier post, which is another way to emphasize this point -- remember that scene in Schindler's List where the Jewish children hide from the Nazi soldiers in the camp by stationing themselves inside pit toilets. Evil is literally disgusting; its consequence torments and disgusts.
Even the great redemption example (our hope to avoid destruction) that was given by of our Judge & Executioner is the example of the tormented sacrificial lamb. These computer screens we're all looking at right now impede what I'm trying to say, so please read this in your mind too -- after his suffering and eventual death on a crude wooden stake, the Son of Man did not immediately ascend to heaven. Perhaps he was comforted in another place, perhaps not; either way, the point here is that there are places and times out there ready for torment and destruction, and this wild earth appears to be preparing our psychologies for whatever we have measured, for it shall be measured back to us. How many creatures have been tormented on earth without recompense?
If each person's scale was already perfectly measured at death, such that no further torment was necessary to achieve cosmic justice, then presumably the bible text would say that explicitly. Instead, we read these verses that say the very opposite:
(1) "And the smoke of their torment will rise to a world/age worlds/ages, and they do not have breath/soul/life daily or nightly those who worshiped the beast and its image and those who took the mark of its name." Revelation 14:11
(2) Matthew 25:46, "As much as you worked it not to one of the least of these, you also worked it not to me: and these go to torment dEalm ("that a world/age"): and the just to life dEalm ("that to a world/age")
Now, while these verses are indeed harrowing, a bible literalist (like myself) will be the first to acknowledge that they do not refer to eternal torment or everlasting torment because:
(1) Rev 14:11 specifically describes that this Ealm Ealmyn ("a world of ages") is in relation to days and nights. These are terms that require planetary bodies in motion, and definitely do not fit the meaning of 'eternal' or 'everlasting'. Note also the similar language in Isaiah 34:9-10, where Isaiah says the fire consuming Edom shall burn "night and day" and "shall not be quenched." Most translations say the smoke "shall go up forever". The common translations are obviously erroneous. Only the literal text is correct, that the smoke rises "from generation to generation". Indeed, we can plainly observe that the fire and smoke of Edom's judgment is not still rising today. Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw." Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."
(2) And then regarding Matthew 25:46, the operative word is singular in both cases (Ealm), so the promise is to be transported to a new world/age, not to be transported to infinity. The bible literalist sees the promises actually made are proportional and literal. The claims of 'everlasting life' and 'everlasting torment' are non-literal – they are simplistic mistranslations favored by modern translations.
In other words, everlasting hell enthusiasts will not give up their dogmatic assumptions about everlasting life, so they also feel compelled to dogmatically preach everlasting torment. But the literal text contradicts their dogma. The bible text here literally promises a world/age for life and a world/age for torment. Non-literalists do not limit themselves to the literal words, which is why they freely mistranslate words to fit their dogma. Doing so in Matthew 25:46 allows them to claim their dogma is consistent with itself because both words are mistranslated together. This is the equivalent of arguing that two wrongs make a right.
In the literal Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek -- your life continues from this world/age to another world/age as long as you remain in the Creator; but if you ever depart from the Creator's protection you're dead in your sin, even if that death occurs in the next world or even 7 worlds from this one. Why? Because in the literal text of the bible, only the Father (and those who live in Him) can live perpetually and indefinitely. One of my favorite examples is Psalm 41:13, "Blessed is Yahweh, God of Israel, From the age -- and unto the age. Amen and Amen." Notice the two amens, because those are Hebrew words, and the word amen refers literally to something perpetual; so it's doubled use here refers to past and future.
Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no god formed, And after Me not shall be."
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall ThEamd )"stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Nowhere in the bible can we find a statement like this for sinners, "their years shall not be ended" – that is simply not in the bible. Rather, there are countless verses describing the utter annihilation of the wicked.
But in the bible, we see that while destruction abounds, still a remnant is always preserved by Yahweh to continue life for good purposes. John 5:21, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, likewise also the son. Those whom he desires are made alive."
Quote from: greg on January 19, 2016, 07:01:56 PM
In Revelation 4:4, notice the word 'skulls', "And around the throne, twenty four thrones, and upon those thrones, twenty four elders who sat wearing white garments and crowns of gold upon their skulls."
When we envision a mighty ruler who stations talking skulls around his throne, what kind of feeling do we get? Fuzzy? No. Frightened? Yes.
Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things."
I do appreciate that each person will have their own view of the character of Yahweh as judge and executioner.
As for me, I think that if we spend enough time with our eyes open on earth, it is not difficult to be floored psychologically by the cruelty of nature. I heard recently about a little deer that got stuck in a guy's fence; when the guy arrived on the scene he saw his dog had been eating it from the legs upward. What is the sense of that, the slow torment of an innocent creature. Seth mentioned the Jewish Holocaust in an earlier post, which is another way to emphasize this point -- remember that scene in Schindler's List where the Jewish children hide from the Nazi soldiers in the camp by stationing themselves inside pit toilets. Evil is literally disgusting; its consequence torments and disgusts.
Even the great redemption example (our hope to avoid destruction) that was given by of our Judge & Executioner is the example of the tormented sacrificial lamb. These computer screens we're all looking at right now impede what I'm trying to say, so please read this in your mind too -- after his suffering and eventual death on a crude wooden stake, the Son of Man did not immediately ascend to heaven. Perhaps he was comforted in another place, perhaps not; either way, the point here is that there are places and times out there ready for torment and destruction, and this wild earth appears to be preparing our psychologies for whatever we have measured, for it shall be measured back to us. How many creatures have been tormented on earth without recompense?
If each person's scale was already perfectly measured at death, such that no further torment was necessary to achieve cosmic justice, then presumably the bible text would say that explicitly. Instead, we read these verses that say the very opposite:
(1) "And the smoke of their torment will rise to a world/age worlds/ages, and they do not have breath/soul/life daily or nightly those who worshiped the beast and its image and those who took the mark of its name." Revelation 14:11
(2) Matthew 25:46, "As much as you worked it not to one of the least of these, you also worked it not to me: and these go to torment dEalm ("that a world/age"): and the just to life dEalm ("that to a world/age")
Now, while these verses are indeed harrowing, a bible literalist (like myself) will be the first to acknowledge that they do not refer to eternal torment or everlasting torment because:
(1) Rev 14:11 specifically describes that this Ealm Ealmyn ("a world of ages") is in relation to days and nights. These are terms that require planetary bodies in motion, and definitely do not fit the meaning of 'eternal' or 'everlasting'. Note also the similar language in Isaiah 34:9-10, where Isaiah says the fire consuming Edom shall burn "night and day" and "shall not be quenched." Most translations say the smoke "shall go up forever". The common translations are obviously erroneous. Only the literal text is correct, that the smoke rises "from generation to generation". Indeed, we can plainly observe that the fire and smoke of Edom's judgment is not still rising today. Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw." Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every worker of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."
(2) And then regarding Matthew 25:46, the operative word is singular in both cases (Ealm), so the promise is to be transported to a new world/age, not to be transported to infinity. The bible literalist sees the promises actually made are proportional and literal. The claims of 'everlasting life' and 'everlasting torment' are non-literal – they are simplistic mistranslations favored by modern translations.
In other words, everlasting hell enthusiasts will not give up their dogmatic assumptions about everlasting life, so they also feel compelled to dogmatically preach everlasting torment. But the literal text contradicts their dogma. The bible text here literally promises a world/age for life and a world/age for torment. Non-literalists do not limit themselves to the literal words, which is why they freely mistranslate words to fit their dogma. Doing so in Matthew 25:46 allows them to claim their dogma is consistent with itself because both words are mistranslated together. This is the equivalent of arguing that two wrongs make a right.
In the literal Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek -- your life continues from this world/age to another world/age as long as you remain in the Creator; but if you ever depart from the Creator's protection you're dead in your sin, even if that death occurs in the next world or even 7 worlds from this one. Why? Because in the literal text of the bible, only the Father (and those who live in Him) can live perpetually and indefinitely. One of my favorite examples is Psalm 41:13, "Blessed is Yahweh, God of Israel, From the age -- and unto the age. Amen and Amen." Notice the two amens, because those are Hebrew words, and the word amen refers literally to something perpetual; so it's doubled use here refers to past and future.
Isaiah 43:10, "Before Me there was no god formed, And after Me not shall be."
Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old. And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall ThEamd )"stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment. You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."
Nowhere in the bible can we find a statement like this for sinners, "their years shall not be ended" – that is simply not in the bible. Rather, there are countless verses describing the utter annihilation of the wicked.
But in the bible, we see that while destruction abounds, still a remnant is always preserved by Yahweh to continue life for good purposes. John 5:21, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, likewise also the son. Those whom he desires are made alive."
Greg, I definitely agree with your view on the temporary nature of judgement (if not the nature of that judgement), but if you are saying that the "sinners/wicked" are to be lost forever, not resurrected and saved, then I disagree. I believe all shall be saved.
So the worm dies not because the world continues as it does always setting the examples IN THE EARTH ,
no flesh pleases GOD
Never has and never will , Even Jesus come in the same likeness of sinful nature of being flesh and blood as the sin offering on the altar once for
all time Romans 8 ...2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh,
God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin,
He condemned sin in the flesh,
4
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.... those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit & truth ... Spiritual beings of the same spiritual nature as the birthing of Christ our best example
and the child grew and waxed strong in TRUTH &GRACE conceived of the Holy Spirit in a virgin mind/womb , clean and pure JOHN 3 ....... with godly jealousy making you chaste virgins for Christ 2 COR 11 For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. ... you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ. .... to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
The parable of the 10 virgins , 5 wise and 5 foolish Oil in their lamps burning[Holy Spirit oil [Zech4] [the Light and love of God indwelling ] .... waiting for His return ... as a bride for her husband
Quotehttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4
note the foot notes ! and Zech 6 11-14
I am always amazed when more Light comes that we can see , hear and understand as the Holy Spirit teaches and comforts us all ... :HeartThrob:
...Greg...I can understand the concept...as ye have no life in yourselves..ye must remain in me[will of God] my words are spirit/life.....
man does not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of God. Eat my flesh/drink my blood. Scriptures are chock full
of people falling away unto death..by not remaining in His will. the Word of God come in flesh and declared forgiveness of sin
that God was waiving judgement and extending mercy unto all that believe in His son. That it was not the will of the Father to judge
man[condemn] but to save.[sin in flesh condemned/not man].......thus the law as the ministry of death and condemnation set aside
[the Father judges no man/I judge no man/these words that I speak will judge him in the last day.} to whether we remain in the will of
the Father/all men saved/mercy over judgement and alive unto God...and listen unto His son..in whom He is well pleased..or unto the
ram with two horns that speaks like a dragon[accusor] if God be for us..who can be against us? apparently those who had not
remained in the will of God..that condemned Christ and His followers in their courts and put them to death!that takes 'all of the sins of
the world' off Jesus shoulders at the cross..and places them back on men.
rather I see the atrocities/cruelities of this world..more as a reflection of the prince of this world's work's[wickedness] than more
of God meteing out justice. When the people wanted a king over them..to be like the nations..God took it as a rejection of Him.....
He said ' they will take and take and take...to your loss.
the evil contrast/spirit..when active in the angels of heaven..become a dragon..when it took on the form of the serpent in the garden
it led man into disobedience/death...the serpent..being the most subtil beast of the field..made man without understanding as a beast before
the Lord and not man reflecting His nature and image. it is the same spirit in operation in the angels,dragon,serpent,beasts and
men of sin....[they all devour/prey on one-another]..and there is enmity between the woman's seed/man and the serpent.
we may think it is Yahwey meeting us as a bear,leopard and lion Hosea 13;6,7 their heart was exalted,therefore they have forgotten
me,therefore I will meet them LIKE a lion,leopard and bear[marred image of God's true nature/LOVE]
O'Israel,thou hast destroyed thyself..but in me is thine help! I will be thy King,where is any other that will save thee in thy cities
and thy judges of whom thou said 'give me of kings and princes?"
Father says 'I have seen the way he takes" and 'I will heal him and restore him"
Quote from: sheila on January 19, 2016, 09:44:11 PM
...rather I see the atrocities/cruelities of this world..more as a reflection of the prince of this world's work's[wickedness] than more
of God meteing out justice...
I can appreciate that, and thank you for the other comments as well.
I guess the greater point I was trying to make is the way the bible overflows with violence, especially against children... for example, where a spirit from above slaughters all firstborn Egyptian boys in a single night.
John 19:11, "Yeshua said to him [Pontius Pilate], 'You have no power at all over me unless it has been given to you from above; therefore, whoever has delivered me to you has greater sin than yours.'"
I fear Yahweh. I fear He has created heights of exultation
and depths of torment worthy of the songs of angels. How much pain does a creature need to suffer to fill the cup, to engage the heavenly voice appointed to sing that saga? My question is not 'how many angels fit on the head of a pin?' but rather 'how many pins shall men suffer in the songs of angels'?
I know you meant this for Shelia bro Greg ...
But have you ever considered that in these the last days , where so much knowledge [good &evil] has increased ...
You would not have known of all the deaths and tragedies or good things as well to be fair , if not for technology, these computers tv media frenzies , they are like sharks on a story totally twisting the truth , so many liars etc....
But God was merciful in shortening the days of our flesh to 70 years more or less depending on the days of our flesh and those that walk in the Spirit those days are also behind them now IT is in the Psalms our ''sure mercies of David '' in the salt covenant
and His love was to punish them only by letting the rods of men and stokes of men do so in correcting , His love would never leave them ever !! that's commitment , now men are wicked by nature just like an animal , that old beastly cruel and superior attitude the carnal mined which is death minded , hunting and killing [ the nimrods ]
Jesus Christ said HE was turned over the the hands [powers of sinful men ] could them scriptures be any clearer to us now that we have HIS WORD and Spirit teaching us the truth ? it was NOT the Father punishing Jesus for sins of the world , It was Jesus willingly laying down His Life for us only to take it back up again
I am certain these that have died in that same innocent blood are in the glory of God before the world began with Jesus Christ now , my confidence comes from faith in the WORD of God being true and by His Spirit is witness as well
2 Same 7 God's Covenant with David........
...13"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
14"I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, 15but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you....
I hope that you will consider this ,, God bless you in Jesus peace ...........
and yet,David,when given a choice as to whether fall into the hands of men,or God,chose God..and the 3 day plague of death
come..and was halted at the threshing floor.Reckoning God more merciful then men controlled by demons..this I agree with!
death angel is not to be feared! men lie in rest to be spared the evil that is coming........men whom through the fear of death all
their lives were slaves unto sin. the visit of the death angel that passed through was full of mercy! a gentle death! say compared
to what demonic possesed men did to His servants and prophet's...like boiling alive/cutting in two etc.
look upon Moses death.......Anais and Saphira.....it may be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the livingGod..but that is
much more preferrable then falling into the hands of wicked men and their demonic maddness.
the book of Enoch speaks of a certain amount fixed that a man be tried by the wickedness in this earth...He sets limits on what
we suffer in this exercize with evil[Eccl] Jesus said 'Lazarus is sleeping" the maiden is asleep........all that sleep rest from their labours.
another thing you need to know is how merciful God is when the saints die...we shall ALL not sleep..but we shall ALL be changed!
the hour has come,and is NOW when all asleep in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God and come forth.
BLESSED IS HE WHO DIES IN THE LORD,from now on!!!!
on this side of death...there is pain and torment and an evil expierence...oh,but on the other side the Lord awaits..the reaping
angels greet...and come bringing you into the Holy city rejoicing..there is no more death,nor crying nor mourning..for the former things
have passed away.
Father and Jesus are of many compassions..consider the gentle death when the angel of death passed through..and weigh it against
men heeding evil spirits that burned their children alive.
also consider this...the same God who designed our body..built in a nervous system...that releases natural pain-killers..that
even make it that the injury is not felt. Even the mercies of the wicked are cruel.
death is a mercy from pain,torment....see the locust sting that makes men pray for death
as a nurse..I have been at bedside of many who died. I wittnessed this one woman shine and glow as it approached. I've seen the smile
come..and the sigh of relief as the spirit was given up............
Israel is my firstborn son...and the Egyptians become afraid of the increase of the Israelites..and killed the newborn males.
now,Egypt symbolized satan/the prince of this world..who holds God's spiritual children in captivity to slave/sin works.....
let my people go.........and thus the corrupt image[man of sin]natural man dies that the incorrupt image/sons of God/spiritual
men may live.
power given from above...and satan tempted Him...all these kingdoms of the earth have been given unto me...bow down and
do one act of worship..and I shall give them unto you...satan usurped and took the dominion of the earth from man..when he decieved
and led out in disobedience. God said unto Cain 'sin is a demon that croucheth at the door..and his desire is to rule over you..
but you must master it" Obedience to God leads to dominion....Jesus said...Now my kingdom is not from this source/as the
prince of this world has authority to give to who-ever he wishes for acts of bowing down. Jesus source for His Kingdom was the
Father in Heaven...Israel chose the release of a robber over Jesus....for they loved the works of darkness.they had no king but Caesar!
and that same Caeser[rome] destroyed Jerusalem.
but God promises to destroy those who destroy the earth..and Jesus says destroy this temple and I will raise it on the third day!
I was only going by the scriptures in Psalms 73
You set them, indeed, on a slippery road;
you hurl them down to ruin.
19 How suddenly they are devastated;
utterly undone by disaster!
20 They are like a dream after waking, Lord,
dismissed like shadows when you arise.
IV
21 Since my heart was embittered
and my soul deeply wounded,
22 I was stupid and could not understand;
I was like a brute beast in your presence.
23 Yet I am always with you;
you take hold of my right hand.
24 With your counsel you guide me,
and at the end receive me with honor.
25 Whom else have I in the heavens?
None beside you delights me on earth.
26 Though my flesh and my heart fail,
God is the rock of my heart, my portion forever.
I see David as repentant , change of mind from the carnal mind / conflicted /wounded angry ,seeing God as unfair as a beast before the Lord
to the mind of Christ obedient and trusting God
That from the unclean to clean , by the washing of the water of the Word with guiding counsel of God ...
not sure about the OT passage but my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.
Quote from: darryl on January 20, 2016, 02:32:00 PM
not sure about the OT passage but my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.
Thanks Daryll :dsunny:
there is another scripture about the people praising a man..and claiming him as a god/ and worms consumed him right then.
......Jesus also..said..'is it not written in your law that ye are gods?" and this 'will ye say 'I am a god..when ye shall all die like men"
and ' when finding himself in very nature like/as God,humbled himself in obedience as a servant,unto death"
these may give further insight....
Acts 12;23 Herod....
...amen much food for thought...
Quote from: darryl on January 20, 2016, 02:32:00 PM
not sure about the OT passage but my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
(..xcept for soul, i would think psyche and personality, inner being.. but no matter, likely same difference! :laugh2: :smile: )
? connection with Baal..lord of the flies
Abarim publications has some interesting info on Baal zebub..Beelzebub..Lord of flies etc..for anyone interested.....
Quote from: sheila on January 20, 2016, 06:13:51 PM
? connection with Baal..lord of the flies
Abarim publications has some interesting info on Baal zebub..Beelzebub..Lord of flies etc..for anyone interested.....
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/BaalZebub.html#.VqAJNvkrK00 (http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/BaalZebub.html#.VqAJNvkrK00)
:thumbsup:
TY Sis.... :HeartThrob:
Very interesting link! :thumbsup: