worm dieth not

[greg]

This phrase in Mark 9 is one of the most commonly cited difficult verses regarding the duration of hell, "Now if your hand offends you, cut it off.  It is better for you to enter maimed into life than having two hands going to Gehenna, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched".

First, it is certain that in Mark 9 the Messiah Yahshua quotes directly from Isaiah 66:24.  That is comforting even by itself, because most scholars agree Isaiah 66:24 refers to the 1000-year millennial reign, which is a limited time period (or, age).  The reason scholars say this passage ('the worm does not die') applies to the millennial reign is because Isaiah 65 and Isaiah 66 are read together as a complete prophecy, such that Isaiah 66 completes the prophecy of Isaiah 65.

But what if the scholars are wrong.  So let's analyze all possible options here to be certain, so we don't hang our hat on just an eschatological interpretation.  Indeed it is the literal text of the bible that is the standard for truth.  And fortunately, when we examine all options in the literal text, we see the case is even stronger that torment is finite:

   Option 1 is that 'the worm does not die' in the millennial reign.

   Option 2 is that it 'does not die' in some other time. 

   Option 3 is that it 'does not die' for infinite time.

For starters, Option 3 (infinite time) is flawed because the literal text does not use the word "ever" or "infinite" or "eternal" or any other words to suggest infinite time or eternal time.   Indeed, there is no reason for scholars to insert such limitless words into Mark 9, or insert any words into the bible, just for the passage to make sense.  And as my bible study emphasizes repeatedly, there is no bible text that says sinners will never die.  Indeed, the bible says the opposite, repeatedly – that the wage of sin is death, and that evil doers are utterly extinguished (often quickly, like dry grass in a fire).

Moreover, the bible repeatedly has instances where a statement appears open-ended at first, but is then qualified.  Here, the verse is qualified in Mark 9:49, where the Messiah emphasizes that, "For any in the fire, they will be destroyed."

I love reading the literal text in the language spoken in the first century Israel by the Messiah Yahshua, because the literal text confirms this position (as does the Hebrew & Greek).

The Aramaic root word here is Khlm, meaning "to destroy or vaporize".  Incidentally, it also means "salt", which is why the verse is an obvious wordplay in the Aramaic, "For any in the fire, they will be destroyed.  And every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt."  The poster above, Seth, highlighted this context, which was nice to read.

Now, does salt continue for infinite time?  No, it is a simple element NaCl (sodium chloride is table salt), or just Na is sodium.  Table salt is only dissolved into separate elements Na and Cl by a sufficiently hot fire -- it will produce a steady orange flame because of the Na+ ions.  Now, if one throws a lot of salt on a small fire, the table salt will act as a fire extinguisher.  But in the gospel of Mark it says plainly that this fire does not go out.  So this is indeed a large fire, which emphasizes even more that this salt that has lost its flavor will be utterly vaporized.  And if the fire is a nuclear fire, then the Na and Cl can be deconstructed even further in the vaporizing. 

Students interested in further study here should also research the chemical mechanisms by which salt loses its flavor, and how the salt in Israel's Dead Sea (with which the disciples were most accustomed) was often tainted by chemical mixing and therefore not a desirable flavor for food.

Another study item for students here is the root word for "worm" (ThlEa, which also means "to tear apart".  If the 'tearing part' does not end one's torments, that is indeed a kind of elongated torment.  But again, the text does not specify the time duration of the torment here, so context is key.  And indeed, in the conclusion of this verse at Mark 9:49, the Messiah emphasizes the outcome after the torment is ultimately destruction, "For any in the fire, they will be destroyed." 

Now let's look at Option 1 ( 'the worm does not die' in the millennial reign)... again, the reason scholars say this passage ('the worm does not die') applies to the millennial reign is because Isaiah 65 and Isaiah 66 are read together as a complete prophecy, such that Isaiah 66 completes the prophecy of Isaiah 65.  And Isaiah 65:17-25 describes quite well what we would consider the millennial reign.  This eschatological argument is relatively persuasive when you read the text in Hebrew, but it's not exactly bullet proof, because there are parts of Isaiah 65 and 66 that are so interpretive that it amounts to guessing whether they actually describe the millennial reign or some other time.  I can provide examples if you like.

But in any event, if this option 1 is correct, then during this limited time (1,000 years), some evildoers are confined to a hell (or prison) that none may escape during that limited time, rather than a place of infinite torture.

Indeed this Option 1 further harmonizes with Revelation 20 because, at the end of a limited time (1,000 years), something eventful should happen, and accordingly Satan would be released as described in Revelation 20:7.

Now let's examine Option 2 (the worm 'does not die' in some other time)... It may be that a type of Gehenna lake of fire actually does continue into the next world/age, but there is still no bible text that says the next world/age continues infinitely, or that sinners will never die.  Again, the bible says the opposite – that the wage of sin is death, and that evil doers are utterly extinguished.

For example, a prison institution can exist for 7,000 years (an entire macro-age) – people die within the institution every day while new people arrive every day as well. Describing this prison, one would say literally that the presence of the prisoners is not quenched and the prison is not extinguished in the age.  So the worm in this interpretation would be the continual influx of new prisoners (the new logs for the fire), and the prison itself would be the fire that needs a continual influx of fuel so it is not extinguished.

If someone wanted to insist that each individual prisoner (each burning log) lives infinitely because his soul is eternal or infinite, then they would actually need to use different and explicit language to say that, and again, not only does the literal text not say that, but if they did add that text to the bible then they would be contradicting all the other parts of the bible that say the wage of sin is death, and that evil doers are utterly extinguished.  See my article & video for scriptural cites: Preacher Man – Get the Mistranslation Out of Hell!

Indeed, in further support for option 2 is the fact that this place of torment is discussed collectively for the experiences of prisoners in the plural, rather than individually for the experience of each sinner individually.  Perhaps the reason is that sin is often accomplished or magnified through collective institutions (such as nations at war, corporations destroying the earth) to accomplish the greatest torment. 

The text does not say that this fixed and limited place called Gehenna continues for eternity.  It simply states that while this place Gehenna exists, worms do not die and fires are not extinguished.  Gehenna was and is a place on earth.  It had a fire burning there approximately 2,000 years ago, but the fire was extinguished at the end of an age (around the end of the Israeli nation).  How much more will Gehenna no longer exist when this world passes away, and the Father provides a new earth and new heaven?

1,000 years is a long time though, and to be taken very seriously even if only a worm suffers there.  It seems cruel and unusual to even suggest that justice requires tormenting a worm for 1,000 years.  Indeed, it should be noted here that the only requirement is that smoke goes up for 1,000 years.  That does not mean that each person or their worm is burned for exactly 1,000 years.  Rather, it may be that some are like straw burned in 10 seconds, and others are like logs burned for 2 hours, and when you put all those people in order, like a worm or a wave, then the collective worm spans more time than any one person's segment of that worm.  Indeed, in 2 Peter, the apostle is discussing hell and he distinguishes that some are tormented worse than others.  Moreover, the word ymTha "lake" in "lake of fire" refers to a small lake or shallow portion of a larger lake. 

Again, there is no requirement that all of the fuel (or souls) be thrown on the fire at once.  Just as men keep fires on earth, it is common to maintain them in stages or proportionally.  Scholars estimate that the number of people that have ever lived on earth is approximately 100 billion.  Just hypothetically, if 1/10th of those people descended to a furnace of torment, and each person represented one log, then it would create a 10-billion log fire.  Assuming a 1,000 year-burn time (per Isaiah 34:9), the lake of fire would need to consume 3-logs per second.   Now, the point here isn't to think we can calculate the burn rate in hell; as that would be silly. Rather, what I'm doing is appealing to one's sense of logic and maturity, rather than the unwarranted childhood fear of an 'everlasting timeout' somehow morphed into the unwarranted dogmatic fear of 'everlasting hell'. 

I hope this response has been helpful.

Greg

[Seth]

Interesting read, and while I was reading it occurred to me an option 4. Option 4 is that the worm does not die and the fire does not go out, but that human beings are not subjected to it forever, but may escape. I believe there is a correlation between the LOF and Gehenna fire to verses like these:

Isaiah 9
18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire;
    it consumes briers and thorns,
it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
    so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.
19 By the wrath of the Lord Almighty
    the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
    they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
    but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
    but not be satisfied.

In that symbolic context, I could see that when the scripture says that the fire is unquenchable, it means that sin is never satiated. One must always have more, more, more, and the only way out of such an unquenchable file (which I believe is also purifying) is an escape toward the City of God where the water of life is. So, while one is toiling in such a fire as "wickedness burns" the fire weakens the strength of whoever is in it until they seek escape.

Psalm 107
10 Some sat in darkness, in utter darkness,
    prisoners suffering in iron chains,
11 because they rebelled against God's commands
    and despised the plans of the Most High.
12 So he subjected them to bitter labor;
    they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
13 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
    and he saved them from their distress.
14 He brought them out of darkness, the utter darkness,
    and broke away their chains.
17 Some became fools through their rebellious ways
    and suffered affliction because of their iniquities.
18 They loathed all food
    and drew near the gates of death.
19 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
    and he saved them from their distress.
20 He sent out his word and healed them;
    he rescued them from the grave.
21 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
    and his wonderful deeds for mankind.
22 Let them sacrifice thank offerings
    and tell of his works with songs of joy.

[greg]

Yes, the symbolism of those passages is striking in Isaiah and the Psalm. 

Fortunately, when we read in Hebrew all of the Old Testament passages that describe the perpetual and continuing glory of the Father who transcends ages and worlds, we can see clearly the contrast in words -- that is, different words (finite words, non-perpetual words, limited words) are used to describe the punishment of the wicked.  And the outcome for the wicked, the unredeemed portion, is always the same: death, destruction, annihilation, they exist no more, etc.

That is why the literal text of the bible is so comforting here.  It confirms that complete justice will be done.   Each individual's sin is finite, each individual's punishment is finite.   It is fundamentally important to know the Father is justice and works justice. 

[Seth]

The way I look at and understand Gehenna with reference to the Isaiah scripture I can best describe with an example.

Drug use is always unquenchable but people are not always drug users.

I see the comment about unquenchable fire as a statement on insatiable quality of sin, not necessarily an external thing.

[greg]

The way I look at and understand Gehenna with reference to the Isaiah scripture I can best describe with an example.

Drug use is always unquenchable but people are not always drug users.

I see the comment about unquenchable fire as a statement on insatiable quality of sin, not necessarily an external thing.

Perhaps you're right, but you're going to need a bible citation that worm=sin.

Isaiah 66:24 says that worm=dead body.

Isaiah 41:14 says that worm=Jacob, and that Jacob=men of Israel.

Job 25:6 says that worm=son of man

Psalm 22:6 says that worm=not a man, but a reproach of the children of men and despised of the people.

So, we put it all together, and worm= a dead body, even a dead man walking. 

But what causes death?  Sin, so perhaps it will not be difficult to find a bible citation to support you after all, Seth.

In nature, the crimson worm is a useful example for what the Messiah Yahshua accomplished at Calvary to help Jacob the worm...

[Seth]

Take a look at the latter half of that Isaiah 9 passage I posted.

[greg]

This Hebrew expression kaSh rShEah in Isaiah 9:18 means "like/as fire wickedness" .   So what is burning is like/as fire wickedness.  And then in the next verse of Isaiah, 9:19, we read that it is "the people" who are burned, "In the fury of the Lord of Hosts, the land is darkened, and shall be the people as/like the fuel of the fire."

So, Seth, the wickedness and the people together go to the fire, not just the wickedness.  In the bible, the wickedness is in the people, not outside of them.  See also Isaiah 9:5, "For every battle of the warrior in the tumult and garments rolled in blood shall be to the burning fuel of fire."  Here is another example in this chapter of Isaiah where a physical object (a garment) is burning in the fire.  Sin is not so much a physical object, but rather a condition.  That condition attaches to a physical object.

Indeed, an even more explicit use of the Hebrew word rShEah ("wickedness") (i.e., without the "like"), is found in Malachi 4:1, "For behold, the days that shall burn as an oven, and shall be all the proud that all do rShEah ("wickedly") chaff, and shall burn them up, the day that comes, said the Lord of Hosts, that not shall it leave like root or branch."

What is being utterly destroyed here in Malachi 4:1 is "all working wickedly", which refers to people who work wickedly, rather than just the wicked deeds themselves.  If you wanted to make the case that 'only sin' is destroyed, then you would need to go back through the entire bible and creatively translate the Hebrew phrase kl EaShh ("all who work") so it never refers to people themselves, which of course, you could not do.

So again, the literal Hebrew provides the most accurate answer here, and it is comforting because the literal text of Malachi 4:1 is another great example that the wicked are utterly annihilated.  There is neither a root nor a branch that survives to be tormented infinitely or perpetually.   The wicked are utterly destroyed and are no more.

Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."  Because the evil have "no future", they categorically they cannot experience an eternal or everlasting future in hell.

In the Psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6).  And see how he describes the wicked as dead men that are not even remembered in Psalms 9:6 and 34:16.  David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38).  The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.

Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh?  He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."

Matthew 13:40, "As therefore the weeds are picked out and burned in the fire, so it will be in the end of this world/age."  Note the phrase here in the literal text of the gospel bShulmh dEalma hna ("in the end of this world/age").  If the punishment were everlasting, this would have been an excellent time for the Messiah to emphasize that, which of course he did not.  He confirmed that the Father is just and merciful.

Psalm 7:11, "God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times."

Jeremiah 17:10, "I Yahweh search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."

Matthew 9:13, "Go learn from this, that I seek mercy and not sacrifice."

Matthew 12:7, "If only you would have known that I desire mercy and not sacrifice."

Ecclesiastes 12:7, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Eloha who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 3:20, "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

[micah7:9]

The posts on this thread have given me more to think about.  The Gehenna Christ was referring to was the spiritual fire of God (Heb 12:29).  Its purpose is to chastise and purify us.  He was speaking to His disciples , a part of the sermon on the mount, in His comments on Gehenna.  They apply to us today.  The only other time He spoke the word was when addressing the Pharisees.

It is interesting that the work of Professor C. Tischendorf resulted in him concluding that the following verses in that section of Mark were spurious:

Mark 9:44  This entire verse
Mark 9:45  into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46  This entire verse
Mark 9:47  fire
Mark 9:49  and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt

Nevertheless He did say in Mark 9:47-48 that Gehenna is where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:

Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna)fire:
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I look at this worm and fire in this way:
The worm destroys decaying flesh of a dead person.   :eek:  We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.

Rom_6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The Gehenna fire will not be quenched until all the hay, stubble and wood are all burned away, leaving only the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones.

My 2 cents.  :2c:

:dsunny:

[Seth]

This Hebrew expression kaSh rShEah in Isaiah 9:18 means "like/as fire wickedness" .   So what is burning is like/as fire wickedness.  And then in the next verse of Isaiah, 9:19, we read that it is "the people" who are burned, "In the fury of the Lord of Hosts, the land is darkened, and shall be the people as/like the fuel of the fire."

So, Seth, the wickedness and the people together go to the fire, not just the wickedness.  In the bible, the wickedness is in the people, not outside of them.  See also Isaiah 9:5, "For every battle of the warrior in the tumult and garments rolled in blood shall be to the burning fuel of fire."  Here is another example in this chapter of Isaiah where a physical object (a garment) is burning in the fire.  Sin is not so much a physical object, but rather a condition.  That condition attaches to a physical object.

This is exactly what makes a symbol a symbol. The very purpose of using external objects to represent internal conditions reflects the very nature of symbolism. A symbol is not meant to behave EXACTLY like the thing it symbolizes but to reflect certain relevant aspects of it, such as how the damaging painful aspects of sin are reflected in the damaging and painful aspects of fire, and how the corrosive aspect of sin is reflected in the corrosive aspect of the worm.

Also, how they can be thrown in with eachother, and thus thrown into an external spiritual fire, while also contributing to the blaze with their own wickedness from within. It goes along with what Paul said that the shadows are not the VERY thing.

"Like/as fire wickedness" means wickedness is like fire. I don't have a problem with the translation at all. You could translate it as "like/as fire, wickedness" and it means the same thing. It's a comparison but not of all aspects, just certain relevant ones.

The people are fuel for the fire in the sense that their wickedness increases, so that their inner desires bring forth more sin and the wickedness consumes them further.

Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me. "They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.

Their hearts are like an oven; they approach him with intrigue. Their passion smolders all night; in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.

All of them are hot as an oven; they devour their rulers. All their kings fall, and none of them calls on me.

So, when a person is thrown into the fire in this above sense, it would mean to join other people in their sinful behaviors and consume eachother. That doesn't meant that the fire does not come from within, but that it also reaches a place of externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants.

So again, the literal Hebrew provides the most accurate answer here, and it is comforting because the literal text of Malachi 4:1 is another great example that the wicked are utterly annihilated.  There is neither a root nor a branch that survives to be tormented infinitely or perpetually.   The wicked are utterly destroyed and are no more.

I'm sure we could agree that comfort doesn't define truth. In other words, something may be true or untrue whether it is comforting or not. If it's a matter of people being burned alive, that brings me no comfort. If it's a matter of the judgment being finite, we both are talking about a finite judgment anyway, so nothing I have said precludes that.

Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well.

[joeteekay]

This is exactly what makes a symbol a symbol. The very purpose of using external objects to represent internal conditions reflects the very nature of symbolism. A symbol is not meant to behave EXACTLY like the thing it symbolizes but to reflect certain relevant aspects of it, such as how the damaging painful aspects of sin are reflected in the damaging and painful aspects of fire, and how the corrosive aspect of sin is reflected in the corrosive aspect of the worm.

Also, how they can be thrown in with eachother, and thus thrown into an external spiritual fire, while also contributing to the blaze with their own wickedness from within. It goes along with what Paul said that the shadows are not the VERY thing.


Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well.

I agree Seth  :thumbsup:

[greg]

Matthew 8:29-31 "And they [demons] cried out and they were saying, 'What do we have to do with you, Yeshua, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us?'... And those demons were begging him and saying, 'If you cast us out, allow us to go into the herd of pigs.'"

Seth, were these demons afraid of the Messiah Yahshua because an 'internal fire of wickedness inside their possessed man' was somehow preferable to an 'internal fire of wickedness inside the neighboring pigs'?  Quite unlikely.  I think they were worried that the Messiah was going to cast them to a different place altogether, a fire or prison not from this world.  Indeed, those pigs went right off the cliff in the next verse, a gruesome bloody mess that scared the Gadarenes -- that message from Matthew 8 was gruesome for a reason.

Matthew 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send his Angels and they will select from his Kingdom all of those stumbling blocks and all of those evil doers. And they will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."   Here we see another literal example of burning creatures, for only creatures weep and gnash teeth.  I understand this passage too can be read symbolically for purposes of an apologetic, but allow me to make another strong point first...

Here on earth, the Father created us inside a wild, often gruesome world filled with fleshly creatures, and a huge portion of the bible is devoted to the way those creatures are killed, eaten, burned, sacrificed, and suffer.  Yes, suffer.  Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things." 

I would love to get behind your very intellectual theory, Seth, that flesh does not suffer in another world because of some "externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants."  But I am compelled to read the text literally, and that literal text describes graphic torment of men, albeit limited & finite torment. Key points: death is ugly, often painful, and all flesh gets what is coming to it ultimately in this world or the next. 

Revelation 21:8, "But to the timid, the unbelievers, the evil, the defiled, murderers, sorcerers, whores, idol worshipers and all liars: their part is in the burning Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is the second death."

Proverbs 25:22, "For coals you are putting on his head, And YHWH gives recompense to you."
Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die."

Jeremiah 17:10, "I give all people according to their ways, according to what their actions deserve."

The Father even allowed the Messiah, His Son, to be crucified, and that Son descended to preach to spirits in prison.  It may shock us how real things get from time-to-time.

I do appreciate your conclusion here, "Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well."  Fair enough, Seth. 

I also take comfort in the way the bible says that the Creator abhors human sacrifice.  See examples in Deuteronomy 12:31; 2 Kings 16:3, 2 Kings 17:16, 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Psalm 106:34-39; Jeremiah 7:31, Jeremiah 19:5, Jeremiah 32:35.

Deuteronomy 32:4, "His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He."

[Seth]

Matthew 8:29-31 "And they [demons] cried out and they were saying, 'What do we have to do with you, Yeshua, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us?'... And those demons were begging him and saying, 'If you cast us out, allow us to go into the herd of pigs.'"

Seth, were these demons afraid of the Messiah Yahshua because an 'internal fire of wickedness inside their possessed man' was somehow preferable to an 'internal fire of wickedness inside the neighboring pigs'? 

The scripture doesn't say. It only says that they CAN be tormented, and expected to be, but not that they were aware of what they would be tormented by. It's completely likely from my perspective that they could be worried about a certain torment but not understanding that their torment could be the result of their own wickedness reversed upon themselves.

Matthew 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send his Angels and they will select from his Kingdom all of those stumbling blocks and all of those evil doers. And they will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."   Here we see another literal example of burning creatures, for only creatures weep and gnash teeth.  I understand this passage too can be read symbolically for purposes of an apologetic, but allow me to make another strong point first...

Here on earth, the Father created us inside a wild, often gruesome world filled with fleshly creatures, and a huge portion of the bible is devoted to the way those creatures are killed, eaten, burned, sacrificed, and suffer.  Yes, suffer.  Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Yahweh, doing all these things." 

I would love to get behind your very intellectual theory, Seth, that flesh does not suffer in another world because of some "externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants."  But I am compelled to read the text literally, and that literal text describes graphic torment of men, albeit limited & finite torment. Key points: death is ugly, often painful, and all flesh gets what is coming to it ultimately in this world or the next. 

Greg, there's never a point that I said that suffering isn't part of judgment. Take for example the Holocaust. I see that as an example of sin externalized and how it creates suffering. The wickedness that Hitler perpetrated on his victims also brought the roof down upon himself as he was consumed by the war he started.

Take another example, the Prodigal Son. His wickedness resulted in suffering, literal hunger, literal pain. And that caused his repentance. I would see the Prodigal Son's experience in relationship to the image of how that wickedness burns like a fire and causes, therefore, destruction and suffering. I don't know anywhere where I said "that flesh does not suffer in another world because of some "externalized expressions of sin which become all-consuming for the participants." Where did I ever say that? I only said that I believe that the fire is symbolic, not that what it symbolizes does not cause suffering.

I also think there is something to be said about the consistency of viewing it symbolically within the context of the verse:

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off (spiritual involving sin): it is better for thee to enter into life maimed (spiritually), than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire (spiritual involving sin) that never shall be quenched

Rather than

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off (spiritual involving sin): it is better for thee to enter into life maimed (spiritually), than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire (suddenly literal?) that never shall be quenched

At the end of the day, this is all a matter of our interpretation, but I do like the consistency of the previous interpretation, especially since Jesus always spoke in parables to HIDE meaning. That suggests to me that a literal interpretation runs against his consistent use of using symbolic language to hold back revealing mysteries for the time.

The Father even allowed the Messiah, His Son, to be crucified, and that Son descended to preach to spirits in prison.  It may shock us how real things get from time-to-time.

Doesn't shock me in the least.  :dontknow:

I do appreciate your conclusion here, "Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well."  Fair enough, Seth. 

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

The posts on this thread have given me more to think about.  The Gehenna Christ was referring to was the spiritual fire of God (Heb 12:29).  Its purpose is to chastise and purify us.  He was speaking to His disciples , a part of the sermon on the mount, in His comments on Gehenna.  They apply to us today.  The only other time He spoke the word was when addressing the Pharisees.

It is interesting that the work of Professor C. Tischendorf resulted in him concluding that the following verses in that section of Mark were spurious:

Mark 9:44  This entire verse
Mark 9:45  into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46  This entire verse
Mark 9:47  fire
Mark 9:49  and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt

Nevertheless He did say in Mark 9:47-48 that Gehenna is where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:

Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna)fire:
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I look at this worm and fire in this way:
The worm destroys decaying flesh of a dead person.   :eek:  We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.

Rom_6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The Gehenna fire will not be quenched until all the hay, stubble and wood are all burned away, leaving only the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones.

My 2 cents.  :2c:

:dsunny:

You have some excellent studies Joeteekay , 

  I so enjoy your digging in !      You have given  much to consider   , and cannot stop thinking about this    study ..

  Another thing about the  worms   that  came to mind  , because its on my mind  since you made this post

When  you said the   worms eat the decaying flesh of the dead person   We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.

I thought about  Paul's saying , Turn one over to satan for the  destruction of the flesh , so in the DAY OF THE LORD  his spirit will be saved ..

   Now satan was contending with    Michael   over the Body of Moses  , this is the body of death being the  ministration of death where worms are   eating this decaying flesh ,, and saying the LORD REBUKE you satan       , what is this is the day old manna   with worms in it ?      What id Jesus is the bread of Heaven  that is to be  eaten  now ?  Jesus said eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life in you ..

     Just considering  it !    God bless you  :friendstu:

[sheila]

to me 'the worm dieth not' is more about about the church stumbling..and causing to stumble those believing in Him.

  ..the disciples had been disturbed about others..who were not part of their little intimate group..casting out demons in Jesus name.

...and were concerned about what they should do about it. He said..'if they are for us..they are not against us"

.......God often does not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing...and this is exactly what the disciples were facing....

   what were these other people doing in the name of Christ?  Jesus was speaking about corruption entering the church body

and the church dying and becoming a stink...due to stumbling other's that believe on Jesus name..because they do not know what

God is doing in that body part.   No man is to 'Lord it over' some other man's faith....Christ body part's right hand,eyes,feet etc

    to 'cut it off' means to cut off the offended body member/Blessed is he who is not offended in me...that offenses not corrupt

  the body of faith/believers in Christ Jesus.   thus..having a name that you are alive[faith in Jesus Christ] but are dead......strengthen

the things that remain[faith hope and love]  the letter to the church in Sardis also address's His coming like a theif in the night..

and..is the same as the hour of trial....the prince of this world's hour..where he crucifies Jesus Christ...putting to death the heir

that he may keep his position...only to find that in crucifying Christ..his house has been desolated...thus..Christ has come unto

him as a thief in the night...when the church went out with swords etc to take custody of Him and trial and put to death...Jesus said.

  'Have you come out with swords against me as if I am a thief?.


   so..if a member of Christ's body is doing something [miracles] that you don't understand[just as the church leaders did not

understand Jesus and His miracles in their day]  Blessed you are if you are not offended...because the offended body part will be

cut off in death! that those who live by faith in Christ may enter life!

[rosered]

  So true  Shelia ,
   The two covenants      Law of Moses  being   weak because of the flesh ,an eye for and eye  seeking  revenge

  The  Grace of God though Jesus Christ is  by Spirit  pray for your enemies[ Matt 5 ]
My what a differnce ........

Vengeance is mins says the Lord and I shall repay   Romans 12

Forgiveness
...18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written,


"VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.


20"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."...

  This being the fire of Love   not   hate ...

so..if a member of Christ's body is doing something [miracles] that you don't understand[just as the church leaders did not

understand Jesus and His miracles in their day]

Yes calling good evil and doing evil good  ,  because they were going to stop     those miracles with judgment   against them

    They Called  Jesus works   of satan  and they will do exactly the same to you ,,,    Jesus said they hated me    without a cause ,  and expect this to happen to you ,  taking up your cross  and following the Lord   

  Matt 24  9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another....

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I believe the website below explains gives a good explanation for this.

http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/their-worm-dieth-not

[marie glen]

I believe the website below explains gives a good explanation for this.

http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/their-worm-dieth-not

..amen.. I especially agree with -

   "Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked.  Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering.  They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration.  The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were "not quenched," was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed.  To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture.

The question may now be asked:  If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning?  The answer is, it will not.  A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago.  If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago was still burning?  No, you would simply understand that the fire raged until it had devoured everything within reach.  Common knowledge makes unnecessary the additional statement that the fire itself then died down.

....The Lord through Jeremiah declared to the ancient Jews, "If you will not hearken unto me, ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof [of Jerusalem], and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."  Jeremiah 17:27.  (In the Septuagint the very same Greek root is here used for "quenched" as in Mark 9.)  In 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 we read of the literal fulfillment of this prophecy when the Babylonians put the torch to the city.  Is that fire still burning?

...The Bible does not say that the judgment fires will burn endlessly, for we read that these fires are due to God's setting ablaze this wicked earth, and that following this conflagration He creates "a new earth."  (See 2 Peter 3:7-13 and Revelation 20 and 21.)  There must therefore be an end to the fire, else this earth could not be re-created.  In other words, the very promise of God to give us a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness is contingent upon there being an end to the judgment fires."
         :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

The worm, imo, is "the body of the sins of the flesh"- or the cumulative sin life of a person. It is not "the worms die not". it is "their worm" dies not.

The worm ourbouros appears in anitiquity in diverse places from Egyptian to Greek to Norse mythology. The snake eating its tail. A perfect picture of the carnal mind.

It was the serpent in the garden, and it is the worm Leviathan that twists and flees in us(Isaiah 26).

The fire is not quenched because the worm still lives. Wherever the worm is there is fire, because God is judging sin, but not in the way we depict it. He is judging sin by the cross of Christ- in other words, sin is overcome by love. "No greater love...."

Peter spoke of feeding our enemies and thus "heaping hot coals upon their heads". These hot coals are the same as the coal that touched the lips of Isaiah, purifying His lips. Jesus has placed all mankind in the fire of His love. Gehenna is the lot of those who resist it.

The worm is also symbolic of the tongue, and the words we have spoken, the trail of our sin. "But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken."(Mt 12:36)

And James speaks of the tongue as a world of evil in ch 3 of his epistle and in chapter three talks of the carnal mind and its arrogance and ambition as "earthly, soulish, demonic"- the worm Ourboros comes to mind. Ourboros is a Greek word BTW.

"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell(Gehenna)." (James 3)

"What shall be given to you, and what more shall be done to you, You deceitful tongue? 4Sharp arrows of the warrior, With the burning coals of the broom tree. 5Woe is me, for I sojourn in Meshech, For I dwell among the tents of Kedar!..."(Psalm 120)

As Cain I wander, chased by warriors and arrows and burning coals upon my head, because of my worm. The worm that pokes his head out through my tongue, and who trails back down into the gates of Gehenna. The man of sin. The carnal man.


These were not totally strange concepts in Jesus' day. They were common to the mythologies and cosmologies of the times.

In Isaiah, God called Jacob a worm. Jacob means supplanter, struggler, schemer- which Jacob was until he was broken and became Israel- "joy"

The worm doesnt die as long as we cling to ourselves. At the cross, seeing Jesus portrayed as ultimate love, we release ourselves to Him, aand the worm stops eating itself. We now have the fountain....whenever we fall into old wormy behavior, thoughts- we confess and are forgiven and cleansed.(1 John 1)

Jesus did not say the worm never dies.

He said it never dies in Gehenna. "Where" is the objective term there. Where does the worm not die? In gehenna. How do you get out of Gehenna? Releasing yourself at the cross to the love of Jesus. Every knee shall bow..... All will be reconciled to God...How?, by the blood of His cross. How is the blood applied? Hyssop, the bitter herb. Everyone who has seen Jesus on that cross, in the spirit- knows that bitterness.

He was crucified for me, to save me from my own actions he suffered. He laid down His life for me. That love broke my heart and slew my worm, but that heartbreak must be renewed everyday, or back into gehenna I go ;o) Twisting, turning, burning.

When we leave gehenna the worm lies limp and dead, slain by the living and active two edged sword.

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
            With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
            Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
            And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
      2In that day,
            "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! Is 27

Whenever someone comes into the Day they leave Gehenna, the worm is slain by the two edged sword and fruitfulness begins.

" For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."(Heb 4)

"Everyman's work will be tested by fire for the Day will reveal it." (1 Cor 3)

"On the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ" (Ro 2)

I say this all the time but His eyes are as flames of fire and Hisface is like the Sun shining in its strength and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth.

In Revelation 14:10 you see the devil and His angels are tormented "in the presence of the Lord"

"Do not fear them because every hidden thing will be brought to light" Where, in the light of His presence...before His face, as He sits enthroned.

One who attempts to hold secrets and ambition, and self centerdness in the presence, "before His face" will surely find the worm turning and the  fire burning within.

"When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
            Through my groaning all day long.

      4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
            My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.

Selah.
      5I acknowledged my sin to You,
            And my iniquity I did not hide;
            I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD";
            And You forgave the guilt of my sin. (Ps 32)

That is a spiritual description of the metaphor of the worm and gehenna.

Just outside the walls of Zion, the wall of His love, there is a place by the Gehenna gate where the garbage is burned, and once your garbage is burned- you can come in :o)

"And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,' declares the LORD, 'and I will be its glory within.'(Zec 2:5)

When does Isaiah get "sent"? after the coal touches His lips. His garbage purged.

When does Jacob become Israel? When he is broken. No longer wrestling with God, seeking his own way.

So as far as Gehenna as an actual place in "the other world", "beyond the veil", in "the age to come".... I dont see it. I think it is metaphorical of the nature of an experience that will not be about a place any more than "heaven" is about a place.

It is about the experience of being converted, brought to repentance by the hand of God, His dealings and our self-centeredness- and the consequences of leaving this life while still eating our own tail.

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."...

Those who worship the beast, the carnal man, the dragon have no rest.

"There is no rest", says the Lord, "for the wicked" (Isaiah 48:22)

Isaiah 57:20 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."

IMO, Whatever aionian kolassis will be, it will be an experience of penetrating light, the light of His face, bringing the worm to the surface where it can be seen and dealt with.

"The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it".

[micah7:9]

This is exactly what makes a symbol a symbol. The very purpose of using external objects to represent internal conditions reflects the very nature of symbolism. A symbol is not meant to behave EXACTLY like the thing it symbolizes but to reflect certain relevant aspects of it, such as how the damaging painful aspects of sin are reflected in the damaging and painful aspects of fire, and how the corrosive aspect of sin is reflected in the corrosive aspect of the worm.

Also, how they can be thrown in with eachother, and thus thrown into an external spiritual fire, while also contributing to the blaze with their own wickedness from within. It goes along with what Paul said that the shadows are not the VERY thing.


Having said all that, there can be levels of fulfillment in scripture. If you believe it is literal that's fine, I do not. It could turn out to be both in some way as well.

I agree Seth  :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!

I thought of this thread - the worm - today when I heard the remark how a virus will continue until there is nothing left for them to eat. They were talking about the Black Death.. Which is how it fizzled out I guess..

I do think however the worms above and below.. as bed beneath and covering over, of Isaiah 14, to represent the grave.. And I think when Jesus said better to cast hand or eye in, was the city dump where criminal's bodies were cremated.. Although "where the worm dies not" I for one would agree is in all likelihood, alluding to deeper spiritual truth concerning the corrosive nature of sin..

[joeteekay]

It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!

Yes indeed Marie. And it was good to see EW's comments. He typically gives the big picture, the overview.  I tend to look at things as black or white, monochrome. He looks at scriptures in a panoramic way, in technicolour, if you pleae. :banana:

It is a topic that has many nuances, we see things through a glass darkly at this time.

A few more thoughts:

Gehenna under Christ's new covenant is judgement. It is not torture in literal fire.  The word should never have been translated "hell," for as we saw, the two words have nothing in common. The literal Gehenna of the Old Testament has long since disappeared.  Under the New Covenant It should be recognized as judgement upon God's people to purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them spiritually mature.  Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount" to His disciples.  This "Gehenna fire" is not for the world of unbelieving sinners, but for His Own disciples, and that includes all who are followers of Christ.  That truly is good news.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: Marie and Joeteekay

I think one of the things to keep in mind about Gehenna is that Jesus wants us to keep out of it. He told his disciples to steer well clear of it. So, while I do feel it has purifying properties, destruction is part of purification. I believe the Prodigal Son's experience had purifying properties too. But that doesn't mean I'd want to go through that. So when he tells his disciples to separate their offending  parts and throw them into Gehenna, I think that provides a picture of the disciples keeping their distance from it.

[rosered]

It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!

I thought of this thread - the worm - today when I heard the remark how a virus will continue until there is nothing left for them to eat. They were talking about the Black Death.. Which is how it fizzled out I guess..

I do think however the worms above and below.. as bed beneath and covering over, of Isaiah 14, to represent the grave.. And I think when Jesus said better to cast hand or eye in, was the city dump where criminal's bodies were cremated.. Although "where the worm dies not" I for one would agree is in all likelihood, alluding to deeper spiritual truth concerning the corrosive nature of sin..

  I love you sister ,
you have been on fire lately   Marie !!!

  You make me think !!!    I love  what you and others share
  I agree  there might just be a spiritual blessing . meaning to the worms    lol

   I thought of the valley of dry bones ! Israel   being resurrected  with a Breath   from  GOD  the Holy Spirit blowing life in them dry bones .. 
  If the flesh is  removed  totally ,   God s way of removing the sin nature [ flesh]
I was reminded of the place of the Skull  = Golgotha   also

  Thank you sister Marie  for your contributions to this forum  :dsunny:

  :HeartThrob:God bless  with more of Him

[rosered]

It looks like there is a consensus with us that Gehenna is not a literal place - besides having been the city dump outside Jerusalem - not an 'afterlife' place or place of torment!

Yes indeed Marie. And it was good to see EW's comments. He typically gives the big picture, the overview.  I tend to look at things as black or white, monochrome. He looks at scriptures in a panoramic way, in technicolour, if you pleae. :banana:

It is a topic that has many nuances, we see things through a glass darkly at this time.

A few more thoughts:

Gehenna under Christ's new covenant is judgement. It is not torture in literal fire.  The word should never have been translated "hell," for as we saw, the two words have nothing in common. The literal Gehenna of the Old Testament has long since disappeared.  Under the New Covenant It should be recognized as judgement upon God's people to purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them spiritually mature.  Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount" to His disciples.  This "Gehenna fire" is not for the world of unbelieving sinners, but for His Own disciples, and that includes all who are followers of Christ.  That truly is good news.

  I   certainly agree  :iagree:

  with that  Joe   and Seth's   posts too  ....
John  gives us both the natural and spiritual  message   ... 

Joe there is a language of Spiritual meanings also      that some of us tend to love and share also , that  should be considered      worthy   of  your thoughts

and consideration   , God  does bless us wherever we are at  and receiving of HIM

  Just saying all things work together for the good OF ALL whom LOVE GOD  ,, :HeartThrob:

Romans   8 

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

This has been the place of  Church and true fellowship for many years now  , and love the fact ,   that where  2 or 3 are gathered in His name He continues to be in our midst !!!       
:dsunny:     May the day spring from on High     continue to shine upon us from heaven  by the tender mercies of God    :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

interesting aside Ecc 7;1  a good name is better then ointment,and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

  concerning the people God takes as a special possesion in this earth...the desire of hearing  'well done,you have been faithful..'

and the reward of God is paramount. The desiring of being a vessel for honorable purpose...... It was said of Judas 'better off

having not been born.".then to have been a vessel of dishonour... So,I feel what Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees

  as to their lot..in Gehenna and an ignoble death as refuse and stench unto the Lord...as having a reference to this very thing.


   let another take his office...the wicked servant,unfaithful etc...dishonour..rebuke instead of commendation.

  for this is the very image and likeness of the corrupt image...and loss is associated with it. the rich man that stored up but did not

consider God. the shepherd that feeds only himself..the servant that beats members of the household, the parable of the talents

also further expounds on this theme.

   wormy mann a[a wormy man] give us each day our daily bread.....TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE...I AM the true bread from heaven

   ...a day and an hour you do not know..like a thief in the night...and your house desolate/loss..of man born of woman..there is

  none greater then John the Baptist..but he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater then he.  I must decrease..but He

must increase[of the INCREASING OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.  That stone must become a mountain and  fill the

whole earth! to the SALVATION OF ALL MEN.

  in the revelation of Christ an angel must cast a great burned out mountain[of curses] into the sea!!! and that stone must

become a mountain that grows and fills the whole earth!!!!!! the Mountain of Blessing! of which all shall say 'Let us go UP unto the

Mountain of the Lord!"[far below the valley of Gehenna where their worm dieth not] you who have come up here! and heard

the thoughts of Him whose thoughts are higher..look down on /upon those whose worm dieth not..whose mouth is an open grave

in their testimony..and wormy mann a under the law and ministry of death!