worm dieth not

[joeteekay]

The only places in scripture where the words "worm shall not die" and "worm dieth not" are these:

In the Old Testament

Isa_66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

In the New Testament only spoken by Jesus Christ:


Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna) fire:
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In the Old Testament the reference in Isaiah 66 is to Gehenna, and that is literal.  Gehenna, the word hell (Gehenna really) is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.  A real place, yes a terrible place ititially of human sacrifice and eventually a garbage dump.

In the New Testament, only spoken by Jesus and only found in Mark (9: 43-48).  I believe most of us believe that the Gehenna Christ was referring too was a spiritual fire for judgement (chastisement).  if Christ's references to Gehenna were always in a spiritual context, then why does He make reference to the phrase " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

The verses in Mark 9 referring to the worm are either:
1    spurious
2    literal (which I doubt)
3    spiritual (deeper meaning about this fire-proof worm) ???
4    idiom?

I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained. Hebrew scholars amongst us may explain if it can just be an idiom?

Previous posts:

Regarding Mark Chapter 9 - "Unquenchable Fire"
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:40 AM »

Re: Isaiah 66:24
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »

Re: Isaiah 66
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:54 PM »


Members thoughts would be appreciated.

[Lazarus Short]

Here are my thoughts from Heaven, Yes - Hell, No.  My coverage of the Gospel of Matthew is not yet posted here in Tentmaker.

...He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9)  The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same.  Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd.  It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life.  As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I now see the hand, foot, eye, ect., as being members of your own household. Jesus stretched out His HAND, and said our enemies are those of our own household, then talks about He didn't come to bring peace and that the members of the house will be turned against one another, ie. 2 against 3 and 3 against 2. If you get that He stretched out His HAND, then thumb and first finger are 2 against 3, and reverse is 3 against 2. Same way with feet and toes. These are the members of our "house" that are guilty of sinning against Him who is Spirit within us, with the works/walk of the flesh. My  :2c: Blessings....

PS. the worm is that which eats the flesh,  and it dieth not until there is no flesh left to consume. Once it's done, the fire and the worm are not needed.

[sheila]

  :2c:  God called Jacob a little worm...and told him not to fear...that He would help him.   Jacob/Israel=name/nature change.

   Jacob connived to get something...then was connived himself out of the wife he wanted,less he work 7 more years..and then

was connived out of his wages time and again..but God helped him.God helps us all.

[rosered]

 

  Good study Joeteekay  :thumbsup:

    Read  what you shared and studied this years ago  , and honestly   have forgotten most of it  :doh:

  I know that  this verse  has two types of worm   meanings in just this one verse  .

    God willing  in the morning when  more  time is available  and very excited to share  :Pray:   What  has blessed me personally  on this .

It has helped me immensely  , but it is always the Lord   God who gives  us what we need by the Holy Spirit witness  in the right time .



Isa 14:11       Thy pomp H1347 is brought down H3381 to the grave, H7585 and the noise H1998 of thy viols: H5035 the worm H7415 is spread H3331 under thee, and the worms H8438 cover H4374 thee.
noted the worm that  lies beneath  and the  worm that covers   

  Both are used   for specific scriptures    ,  Jacob is a worm       and this is the one  where scriptures speak of the worm Jacob and How God is the  God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob    the LIVING GOD    whose name was changed to  Israel    , this is a very significant  meaning and purpose of God  in my opinion   

one is  a worm singular  and the other is plural worms  ,  these are the mankind/kings of the  earth   and worms are the  reward for iniquity [shamefully known and named ]  throughout scripture      that we still read of today  in the WORD  and   despise  those sins      that is  stinking of   death   that has not    died  but is still   alive in the WORD OF GOD as a witness to us    to this day .

As far as the unquenchable fire goes     ,  this fire has been set and burns from God Himself  Consuming  from the beginning of the Word of God from old and   the bible  has shown us all that have been destroyed by it  though all the examples   and ages   from long ago    the Whole  Bible declares it   from the beginning  the law was  made   and written on   two stones  ..  Isaiah 14

  I am so sorry to rush off , but  chores are waiting  and hubby will be home soon .......

  God bless   , hope others share  more    soon   :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  :2c:  God called Jacob a little worm...and told him not to fear...that He would help him.   Jacob/Israel=name/nature change.

   Jacob connived to get something...then was connived himself out of the wife he wanted,less he work 7 more years..and then

was connived out of his wages time and again..but God helped him.God helps us all.

  :thumbsup:        Jacob the worm  scarlet   worm  :winkgrin:


Also  what  helped me the  most was Isaiah   25 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+25

  When the Lord will loose all from the grave !!!     yay        Isaiah 25; 8    :banana:

  Tthis has been a helpful study tool for me  as well  over the years

[Seth]

The only places in scripture where the words "worm shall not die" and "worm dieth not" are these:

In the Old Testament

Isa_66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

In the New Testament only spoken by Jesus Christ:


Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna) fire:
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In the Old Testament the reference in Isaiah 66 is to Gehenna, and that is literal.  Gehenna, the word hell (Gehenna really) is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.  A real place, yes a terrible place ititially of human sacrifice and eventually a garbage dump.

In the New Testament, only spoken by Jesus and only found in Mark (9: 43-48).  I believe most of us believe that the Gehenna Christ was referring too was a spiritual fire for judgement (chastisement).  if Christ's references to Gehenna were always in a spiritual context, then why does He make reference to the phrase " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

The verses in Mark 9 referring to the worm are either:
1    spurious
2    literal (which I doubt)
3    spiritual (deeper meaning about this fire-proof worm) ???
4    idiom?

I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained. Hebrew scholars amongst us may explain if it can just be an idiom?

Previous posts:

Regarding Mark Chapter 9 - "Unquenchable Fire"
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:40 AM »

Re: Isaiah 66:24
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »

Re: Isaiah 66
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:54 PM »


Members thoughts would be appreciated.

I actually believe the reference to Gehenna in Isaiah 66 is every bit as symbolic as the reference to it in the Gospels. I believe Isaiah 66 is about the formation of the Bride (New Jerusalem), which uses the same phrasing as in Revelation's description of New Jerusalem, and the spiritual wasteland outside that Bride. So, that is why I believe Jesus makes the reference, I think he is shedding further light on the mystery of the prophecy.

[jabcat]

I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained.

Oh no, I completely adequately explained it.  You must have missed it.   :wink3:    :pointlaugh:

[marie glen]

An interesting study.. I'm going to read more on this.. Isaiah 25.. and past posts..

but found all this interesting.. the CLV (CL Version?) of Isaiah 66:24:

"And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh."

"worm" = H8438
to-law', to-lay-aw', (3,4) to-lah'-ath
From H3216; a maggot (as voracious); specifically (often with ellipsis of H8144) the crimson grub, but used only (in this connection) of the color from it, and cloths dyed therewith

1. worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
       a. worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
       b. scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
           1. the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"


Wow.. I never read this before, interesting...

"the worm "coccus ilicis" ++++
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding His precious blood that He might "bring many sons unto glory" (Heb. 2:"

the verse word for word from the Interlinear (isa3)
"in me  the ones transgressing  the mortals  in corpses of   and they see  and they go forth  she shall be quenched not  and fire of them  she shall die  not  worm of them  that  flesh  to all of  repulsion  and they become" ..(it's a little confusing when ya read it like that..)

(CLV) Leviticus 6:12
+Yet the fire on the altar shall be kept glowing on it; it shall not be quenched.  ....? cross-reference?
_________________________________
Earlier in the chapter (and context)

"Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her.. That you may nurse and be satisfied with her comforting ..For the Lord says this, "Behold, I extend peace to her (Jerusalem/New) like a river, and the glory of the nations like an overflowing stream.. Then you shall feed, on her sides shall you be carried, and be dandled on her knees.. When you see this, your heart will rejoice, your bones will flourish like new grass. And the [powerful] hand of the Lord will be revealed to His servants, but His indignation will be toward His enemies.. For indeed, the Lord will come in fire and His chariots will be like the stormy wind, to render His anger with rage, and His rebuke with flames of fire.. For the Lord will execute judgment by fire and by His sword (TRUTH) on all mankind, and those slain by the Lord will be many.. For I know their works and their thoughts. The time is coming to gather all nations and languages, and they will come and see My glory.. Then they shall bring all your countrymen (children of Israel) from all the nations as a grain offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels—to My holy mountain Jerusalem.. And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down and worship before Me," says the Lord.. (Amplified Version)

And the last verse, verse 24 - Young's Literal - "And they have gone forth, and looked on the carcases of the men who are transgressing against me, for their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched, and they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!"

[marie glen]

Isaiah 14:11 - "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."

"worm" same word as in  "worm dieth not" of Isaiah 66:24 (H8438)
second "worm" or "maggot" in some versions is H7415
     -  rimmâh
From H7426 in the sense of breeding.. maggot, worm (as cause and sign of decay)

[marie glen]

  ..an idiom..?  ...like "to the grave with ye! ye mangy.. whatever" ..that would be more pirate lingo than Hebrew tho.. :laughing7:

[Patinak]

Here are my thoughts from Heaven, Yes - Hell, No.  My coverage of the Gospel of Matthew is not yet posted here in Tentmaker.

...He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9)  The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same.  Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd.  It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life.  As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...

Laz, I have enjoyed your whole series, and think you've got some good insight with your conclusion.
I remember looking in to it a little bit in the past, and finding that there was quite an emphasis put on the importance of 'proper' burial for the Jews.
I just did a quick Google search for a refresher and my first hit was a sight about Jewish law concerning this subject.  One of the things that jumped out at me (in relation to Joeteekay's quoted Matthew verses) was: "According to Jewish law, a Jew is to be buried as he was born - complete with all his limbs and organs. The human body is considered as sacred in death as it was in life as it contained a G‑dly soul. He must be buried in a traditional grave in the ground, so that the body may return to the earth."

As a side, this website also mentioned the importance of immediate burial (something I've wondered about re: Ananias & Sapphira)

[Act 5:5-10 KJV] 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him]. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

It's a very quick read if anyone is interested: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367836/jewish/Basic-Laws.htm

Blessings all,
Pat

[rosered]

 
  Thanks Marie  , for the  word  meanings    !    Awesome  ,   meaning

   
  I love what Laz  and Patick  shared  , proving the point ,   keeping the traditions of Men ,   and How the Word the Lord Jesus Christ

   by keeping  the old law   and   upping the ante  ,  this by  saying  the cutting of of limbs  ,
  Goes along  with Him saying eat my  body and drink my blood that you might have Life in you ,    lusting after a woman in your heart   you broke the law already

  that was absurd   to them  prim and proper  keeper of the letter of the lawyers   , carnal    so very carnal  and   so offensive  Jesus Words are to   the carnal minds  [ Enmity against the Spirit and Spirit against the carnal minded]

  And

Jesus was trying to  tell them it is the heart  that desires and defiles  , not keeping these  silly traditions   that  please God ..




  The spiritual aspect of it is      Jesus was telling them     all they were    is dead and rotting  corpses  in the sins and so carnal  without a   speck of spirituality in the old dry bones  , all flesh  is   eaten by the worms     and is a stink ready to be burned ...[Gehenna ]  it has enlarged   as the world is a  spectacle... sign 

Just  as Sodom and Gomorrah   if they had not  left us a seed , it is the same condition   continual burnings  , for me this is the lust an desires of the heart that arre contrary to the Spirit of God in nature   and meaning     

  The examples are though  out the Word of God from the   very beginning  in Adam / carnal mankind going against the Holy Spirit  from the start.
 
What  I wanted to share  and had no time  for   yesterday , was  the urgency   in the Words  of Jesus Christ ,
  His testimony    is the last Word being  said [pure prophecy] complete  truth , it is  the Last Day  , by   scripture     or the book of memorials    those that died carnally still in their sins ...

Heb1  in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;


  there is no more Bible to add to   HIS word  it  is the last Word  , and   JOHN  the revelator      spoke in Revelation   being in the SPIRIT on the LORDS DAY , that fulness  of times  ,   John   was not carnal  at all in speaking and this is why , no carnal mind  can  understand it    at all , it is the heavenly  language     

  and Only language    spoken   clearly in Jesus Christ   that unlocks the     seals  in   the BOOK OF LIFE    for you to understand with the mind of Christ  ,  that John had  when writing all this down  for us   , it is the Key  of David  ,  the  mercy  of God  to get in  to the safety/ Hid in Christ  heavenly places   as the world burns  and rots around you ,,,

Our last days  of walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit

maimed even  ,  walking in the Spirit  you know where you are going  being led of the Holy Spirit  by  Jesus  LAST   WORDS .complete , walking in the  flesh you have no clue where you are going    or  even what heaven  means


and have never  been to heaven  nor have no clue what that even means  to die in the Lord  that you will be saved  ,,, 

[Lazarus Short]

 

  The spiritual aspect of it is      Jesus was telling them     all they were    is dead and rotting  corpses  in the sins and so carnal  without a   speck of spirituality in the old dry bones  , all flesh  is   eaten by the worms     and is a stink ready to be burned ...[Gehenna ]  it has enlarged   as the world is a  spectacle... sign 

I'm reminded of a dream I had years ago - I had a view of a man of high status.  He had a great physique and his body was decorated with embedded jewels of great beauty, sort of like navel jewels.  I looked closely at him, and saw tiny worms wriggling on his skin - yes, the worms were already working on him.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting side note.....a worm was used by them to make the dye color red....

[rosered]

 

  The spiritual aspect of it is      Jesus was telling them     all they were    is dead and rotting  corpses  in the sins and so carnal  without a   speck of spirituality in the old dry bones  , all flesh  is   eaten by the worms     and is a stink ready to be burned ...[Gehenna ]  it has enlarged   as the world is a  spectacle... sign 

I'm reminded of a dream I had years ago - I had a view of a man of high status.  He had a great physique and his body was decorated with embedded jewels of great beauty, sort of like navel jewels.  I looked closely at him, and saw tiny worms wriggling on his skin - yes, the worms were already working on him.

Wow I LOVE  IT LAZ ,confirmation to me , like   wow!

  I am not one to    share  a whole lot of personal    things [secret  things ] about God  , there are exactly two      that know ..  some are gone on  fully into the Spirit realm  now.   as I wait my turn .. I  have on this forum a very    few   times , sort of  , like right now ...

  To me it is weird stuff    and unexplainable   , and the carnal minded have a  field day with in their own minds    confusion & doubt   that mix] !!  I know I was one of them for a long time

  kind of  declaring   I had   faith , but deny    the works and call it of satan /devil ,  Yep thats right   !  just like the scribes Pharisees and hypocrites  did ,

calling Jesus the  son  of belial    / "Belial means "without a master", and symbolizes true independence, self-sufficiency, and personal accomplishment. Belial

represents the earth element.  While Jesus was  declaring all   the while , that was said and done was by His Father   only ,  he was just the  proof  sent [first of the firstfruits ]   always Glorifying God in the earth  in spiritual   things  and was hated  for them  works

  You do not realize you are doing it    , but you sure are  ,  by  calling everything you do not understand evil ....  fair warning

Till the Lord showed me the error of my ways   , I too had those   strange Spiritual encounters  , it confounds the human mind ,,  and is scary  stuff ,  Abrams first encounter  terrified him   ,  but  by faith    the  fear of the Lord was his beginning of true wisdom  being established within  him and becoming a friend of  God from being and  enemy    against  the HOLY SPIRIT   ..

   I   always used the scripture if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived        , here is the Christ ,or there is the Christ  , and no not believe them    etc ... that was my calling card  ,   I would not allow anything to  come and defile me,  all the while I was rotting   in sins and  stink    to the high heavens like Lazarus   useless and needing to be resurrected spiritually  speaking      for the  true Masters use ,,GOD HIMSELF    IS whom helps us   and It is Him whom all the glory is given    period ,,,      you just get the joy of being a partaker  of Him  ,

The Christ in you  that anointing of the Holy Spirit birth  in you the hope of Glory  , seeing and   knowing and  living  in the Spirit   by Jesus Christ     the first  one  Son of God   and son of mankind  of many  to come and are coming  still  by the Power of the Word /seed  planted and the    HOLY SPIRIT     pure waters of life freely   and GOD gives the   righteous increase  all by His   own choosing..         :HeartThrob:

   The weird  thing  now and trying to explain   ,   I was emailing with a dear  brother in the Lord and      sharing some    scriptures exchanges   , over the course of a few days     ,   the    night vision , I call them   night visions because it was in the dark of not knowing what it means  at all ..     though some have come when  my   carnal brain was resting in sleep and the Spirit  would get though    , I see them as in the natural first [carnal ] than Spiritual [Holy Spirit ] just as the   WORD OF GOD declares it to be so ..

  I was eating this  weird fruit      that had sections of  crescents  in it , never  seen anything like it in the natural  realm     before ,
  now this fruit was   light like crystal   but moving and never  noticed it before   , till it startled me       these thin almost transparent  like worms were  trying to  get up into my nose   and I got    really  startled   and  thew it down and   freaked out 

I know  by some studies  about the nose it   would come though  anger  the snorting of the nose    , carnally   still   and what clear  almost unseen to the naked eye   was deceiving     little slivers of worms   by the   bunches   , and not to eat of this fruit   it was death entering   though the nose /anger  ,,,   

  It was  apparent  , see though and  sneaky and tiny       that  if the Lord had not helped me to see
  trying to enter    ,  it I sure would have  kept eating of its fruit and it was   death that   looked like life !   very   scary  dream like  message   and personal     , as most are , but have had some where   standing   and  was looking from a distance   as observing   ...

  These things are private to me and   not sure    if they should be shared   with anyone

  You never want anyone to  think  your crazy    , or "special "'     because you  ARE NOT either   
  and when you do share them   , there is that risk      that  will happen  , not everyone can  handle      it  properly   , and you can stumble  a brother
  When he thinks ill of you .......  than nothing you say    is believable  to them .....
  cut off their ear         :sigh: no seeds   and no water      for God to give the increase.... 

Some deeply personal    stuff on the forum as of late ,,       God knows ....   as many things come to mind ....

   

[micah7:9]

Here are my thoughts from Heaven, Yes - Hell, No.  My coverage of the Gospel of Matthew is not yet posted here in Tentmaker.

...He then returns to the theme of cutting off a hand, foot, or eye in order to "enter into life" instead of being cast into "everlasting fire" (18:8) or "hell fire." (18:9)  The "everlasting fire" is footnoted "gehenna," thus death and burning in the garbage dump, and by association and parallelism, "everlasting fire" must mean the same.  Anyway, no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd.  It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life.  As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...

Laz, I have enjoyed your whole series, and think you've got some good insight with your conclusion.
I remember looking in to it a little bit in the past, and finding that there was quite an emphasis put on the importance of 'proper' burial for the Jews.
I just did a quick Google search for a refresher and my first hit was a sight about Jewish law concerning this subject.  One of the things that jumped out at me (in relation to Joeteekay's quoted Matthew verses) was: "According to Jewish law, a Jew is to be buried as he was born - complete with all his limbs and organs. The human body is considered as sacred in death as it was in life as it contained a G‑dly soul. He must be buried in a traditional grave in the ground, so that the body may return to the earth."

As a side, this website also mentioned the importance of immediate burial (something I've wondered about re: Ananias & Sapphira)

[Act 5:5-10 KJV] 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him]. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

It's a very quick read if anyone is interested: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/367836/jewish/Basic-Laws.htm

Blessings all,
Pat

:dsunny:

[micah7:9]

The only places in scripture where the words "worm shall not die" and "worm dieth not" are these:

In the Old Testament

Isa_66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

In the New Testament only spoken by Jesus Christ:


Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire ( Greek - Gehenna) is not quenched.
Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna) fire:
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In the Old Testament the reference in Isaiah 66 is to Gehenna, and that is literal.  Gehenna, the word hell (Gehenna really) is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad.  A real place, yes a terrible place ititially of human sacrifice and eventually a garbage dump.

In the New Testament, only spoken by Jesus and only found in Mark (9: 43-48).  I believe most of us believe that the Gehenna Christ was referring too was a spiritual fire for judgement (chastisement).  if Christ's references to Gehenna were always in a spiritual context, then why does He make reference to the phrase " where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

The verses in Mark 9 referring to the worm are either:
1    spurious
2    literal (which I doubt)
3    spiritual (deeper meaning about this fire-proof worm) ???
4    idiom?

I see that Jabcat, WW, CHB, martincisneros and others did posts on this, but I still do not see this adequately explained. Hebrew scholars amongst us may explain if it can just be an idiom?

Previous posts:

Regarding Mark Chapter 9 - "Unquenchable Fire"
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:09:40 AM »

Re: Isaiah 66:24
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 08:12:29 PM »

Re: Isaiah 66
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:54 PM »


Members thoughts would be appreciated.

:Peace2: :dsunny:

[rosered]

:cloud9: Interesting side note.....a worm was used by them to make the dye color red....

  Yes they sure are  Bex ,

    I love the analogy with the scarlet/  worm  interchangeable      words  for the same meaning[scarlet and worm are the same ]      in the Word  that Marie brought out   , I do believe it is the worm  Jacob     , whom  does not die , but name is  changed   to Israel       whom GOD PREVAILS    ..
I took this    little    diddy as     literal    being   God gets the   Victory  over Jacobs  circumstances       as well as God  has veiled him from   the  beginning  not being  able to see  [carnal minded ]    so faith  would  prevail     , walking by faith not by sight  :winkgrin:  faith  is what heals   and the things of miracles  are done, the increase of God  , there is no earthy reason for  this to happen   , It is God  doing the works   

Marie

Wow.. I never read this before, interesting...

"the worm "coccus ilicis" ++++
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young,

she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again.

The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle.

As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms,
the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding His precious blood that He might "bring many sons unto glory" (Heb. 2:"

I love also how    Mary[virgin mind  conceives  , by the seed /word of God ,  though the Holy  Spirit  ],  seeing her son  die would also   pierce her own  being  also

Wisdom is justified of her children   ,   though birthing would  she be  saved ... her  children being that proof   of the fruit born of Holy Spirit promise  of inheritance 

Luke  2 Young's Literal Translation
(and also thine own   life / soul shall a sword pass through) -- that the reasonings of many hearts may be revealed.'

   

[marie glen]

As I said before, Jesus is simply saying it is better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial...

  "better to live without a body part which leads you to sin, crime, prison, execution, and having your body burned in the dump instead of being given a decent burial... and instead of going on living life without committing the crime(s)

Case in point? notice the previous verse (42) "..whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."

(43) "And" (or therefore,) "if thy hand may cause thee to stumble"

no one enters life, the afterlife in the Kingdom, minus a hand, a foot, or an eye – that would be absurd.  It must mean, in my humble opinion, simply getting on with your earthly life

     :iagree:
____________________

The isa3 interlinear says it like this "ideal it is being you maimed to be into coming into the life or the two hands having to be from coming into the gehenna into the fire the unextinguished"

The metaphor also - unextinguished because as long as there is anything to consume, the fire will burn? ..like fire does..

Isaiah 25:4 & 12 -
4 "For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall."
12 "And the fortress of" (rebellion?) "the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust."

reduced to dust.. no more fire nor 'flame' as there's nothing any more, to burn..

[Seth]

Personally, I believe that the reference to Gehenna is as symbolic as the references to chopping off body parts and salt. In other words, I don't believe that Gehenna should be taken literally as a burial warning because I think the whole thing is a symbol from beginning to end.

Mark 9
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 44 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 46 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.'

49 Everyone will be salted with fire. 50 "Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other."

The thing that catches my eye is how Jesus says that EVERYONE will be salted (flavored) with fire (destruction), meaning either just body parts, or the whole body, but that salt is GOOD. So, the destruction is good even if there is an aspect of it we'd want to avoid. The flavoring aspect is still part of the fire process.

Apostle James connects the fire of Gehenna with sin, which is why I think Jesus is telling them to throw the appendages outside. "Nothing unclean may enter."  Or, the whole body goes. Apostle James says if we don't control the fiery tongue it leads to a forest fire and consumes our whole self.

James 3
6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire of Gehenna.

The tongue may be speaking hatred against a brother, then suddenly your whole body is committed to planning and executing his murder. I think that is what Apostle James had in mind. So when Jesus says cut off your parts rather than the whole body being set on fire, I think it's what Paul was saying when he said "Judge yourselves now, so that you will not be judged with the world."

The Romans 1 judgment of turning man over to his sinful desires is like how Babylon was a club in God's hand. There's a unification aspect to Babylon and God when he decides to use it as a judgment. Same thing goes for sin, I think.

What it leads to is SALT. Repentance. God leading one to the end of himself unto humility. We can avoid a tough road like that by "cutting" off our appendages and leaving ourselves "blind" to what offends us so that we are not judged with the rest of the world.

[marie glen]

The thread is making me ponder the relevance(? for lack of a better word right now) of gehenna which the aramaic says is "Hebrew ravine of Hinnom" and why it is used.. I do know horrible things went on in that valley.. :Chinscratch:

..and are prophesied to go on there.. i.e., the last battle

[Seth]

It's connected to idol worship and human sacrifice in Israel's history. I think the spiritual significance has to do with the idolatry of the self. That's what a life wholly dedicated to sin is and leads to death, as though one is sacrificing himself to a false god when he idolizes the self. I think this is why Jesus asked the Pharisees how they thought they could escape gehenna, since they rejected the healer.

I think that one thing Jesus makes clear is that destruction is inevitable. Something will be destroyed. Either our offensive parts or the old man will destroy himself by his own actions and rise again through repentance. Either way sin will be destroyed which is why it is a salting process.  :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen Seth!  :iagree:  and thank the Lord!! :smile:

[joeteekay]

The posts on this thread have given me more to think about.  The Gehenna Christ was referring to was the spiritual fire of God (Heb 12:29).  Its purpose is to chastise and purify us.  He was speaking to His disciples , a part of the sermon on the mount, in His comments on Gehenna.  They apply to us today.  The only other time He spoke the word was when addressing the Pharisees.

It is interesting that the work of Professor C. Tischendorf resulted in him concluding that the following verses in that section of Mark were spurious:

Mark 9:44  This entire verse
Mark 9:45  into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46  This entire verse
Mark 9:47  fire
Mark 9:49  and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt

Nevertheless He did say in Mark 9:47-48 that Gehenna is where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:

Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell ( Greek - Gehenna)fire:
Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I look at this worm and fire in this way:
The worm destroys decaying flesh of a dead person.   :eek:  We are all dead without Christ in us. It's the old man. He must die to sin. The body of flesh, our carnality, must be destroyed.

Rom_6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The Gehenna fire will not be quenched until all the hay, stubble and wood are all burned away, leaving only the foundation of gold, silver and precious stones.

My 2 cents.  :2c: