Marriage and Homosexuality

[jabcat]

:) micah

and you said a mouthful.  nothing to disagree with there, especially that we should examine ourselves..motives, attitudes, intent, lack or presence of love, all those things.  That said -  :Chinscratch:  I don't have the perfect answer to this, but there's a balance/correct balancing of the scales somewhere.  I've probably wandered around and never quite found it in my own lifetime.  What I'm getting at though is, I believe we're absolutely supposed to know the difference between right and wrong, righteousness and sinfulness.  Blessiings and blasphemy.  We love, but speak and stand for truth.  We influence, but not out of anger and self-righteousness but rather love, kindness, gentleness.  And I'll set out there the following, which is loaded and will probably bring more discussion and hopefully not howling :).   Also then, to judge correctly, but not condemn.  Judging correctly IMO is the key.  Again, all the right attitudes, motive, intent - be a faithful witness, confess and acknowledge our own sin and look to the Lord for forgiveness and help with it,  be loving, wishing to redeem and reconcile - rather than punish, castigate, diminish and impugn.  Specific scriptures about exposing, correcting, drawing a line between light and darkness.   I DO believe that MOSTLY has to do within our OWN lives as each of us walk the walk individually.  However, Paul for one didn't stop short of saying how we live, what we say, how we admonish and even discipline others ("church"/body issues) has a place in the believer's life. 

All that said, I'll say again, I don't have the perfect answer to these things.  However, I don't think we're necessarily (unless it's an individual calling for a specific time etc.) supposed to just sit silent, go along with whatever happens, blend in, and "always" say "I have my own sins so I can't have anything to say about this".  On the contrary, maybe something like "I have my own sins, I can't condemn or criticize, but here is what I understand the scriptures to say and how I believe it's God's will in such matters".  Maybe.  That's more my approach at times, and that's if I have the nerve to say anything at all.  Again, each must take it before the Lord though, because I think it's a difficult thing and can sure be messed up - by either marching with "God hates (fill in the blank)...." signs, or hiding in a corner somewhere being too timid or whatever to take a stand.

Read something interesting last night.  Winston Churchill supposedly said it.  "You've got enemies?  Good.  That means you stood for something at some time in your life".  :)

When I've got this all figured out I'll let you know.  But be sure and DON'T hold your breath.   :Peace2:

[jabcat]

   Me as well .... :sigh:     ol ' beam eye

  Where did Aerex  go by the way ?

He might have gone into a witness protection program.   :icon_jokercolor:

[Seth]

I think he got some solid feedback here.

[jabcat]

My advice: just search your conscience and don't act against your faith.

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well here's the rub. NONE of us can make a "right" decision, in truth. What may look good and the "right" thing to do, may not necessarily be what He wants us to do at that particular moment in time. If we ask and we don't get a solid answer from Him one way or another, then we go with the letter and our conscience. Can't go wrong that way, or at least not accountable if you do.  :footmouth:  :laughing7: My  :2c:

[GodIsLove]

 :thumbsup: cardinal, very true

[micah7:9]

:thumbsup: cardinal, very true

You got that and understood it?
None of us can know we made the right decision, "in truth"? That should be troubling.

And how many times have you asked Him and got a "right" decision answer? I Know I have asked and well never got a solid answer one way or the other. So I did what ever I did and it was "the letter and our conscience" what does that mean? And I couldn't go wrong that way. :Chinscratch:

[Seth]

Well, in my opinion, and perhaps in agreement with what Cardinal is saying, the clear things God speaks about in scriptures will never be contradicted by him. Yet there are things that are not so clearly spelled out in scripture where we must use prayer, instinct, common sense, conscience and hear the voice of God within us. I am a believer that God wants us to walk on our own feet rather than have everything spelled out like with the Torah and oral law. That means being wrong sometimes, and bumping into walls. I'm not sure, but that's what I got from her post.

Aerex, whatever you decide to do, I hope that it will be what you think God wants you to do, rather than man.

John 12
42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That's one of the hardest things it being judged by man and whether you decide to go or not I hope it will be because of the fact that you want to please God and you believe it's what he want you to do. If you do what you truly believe God wants you to do, without self trickery because he sees the truth always, I feel you're on good ground.

[rosered]

  Yes I get  what you all are saying   !!!!!   and love hearing His VOICE in yours    .    in harmony of   the same  witness  :banana: :banana:  I DO LOVE YOU ALL  very much


  It is our own conscience that bears witness with the Holy Spirit   in actions    , giving us Jesus peace  ,but  when we struggle  against   ourselves and  more than one nature   is in control   ,

  we do become  unsettled , wavering   unrest   like the seas of madness ...  and scriptures says   


Tthere is NO REST for the wicked   ,  what is not of Faith is sin !! 

We   walk by faith not by sight ,,,  what we see and feel and understand  as humans  ,

but walk in the Spirit   by faith in God and learn to trust    this inner voice  , that bears witness   within you  and its peace  , and resting in Hope , in Him , so much more of His increase     to the fullness of Gods  loving   desire for you and all     ,   removing the lack   and struggle  in lifes throws ,,,


Isaiah 57 Healing for the Repentant   Changing our minds  /hearts direction ,   from the carnal  in nature to the   Mind of Christ  that is spiritual in nature .
Obedient  to Gods desires  is better than 10 thousand sacrifices    for sin  , as to not abusing the grace of God and  giving Jesus  His glory  in dying for you !


...20But the wicked are like the tossing sea, For it cannot be quiet,

And its waters toss up refuse and mud.

21"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."   

Faith is  a Living substance  , faith without that  substance  working in you is dead ...   sin is death and to be carnally minded is death , error/ missing out in all those Spiritual blessings here and now in  that abundant life of JOY IN THE LORD ....    :HeartThrob:

Growing pains , hurt in the moment , but the peace that comes after is a  beautiful thing and comforting to KNOW   that GOD is with you always to the end ,, :HeartThrob:   there is no other peace on earth like it ...  nothing can compare to   experiencing  the Glory of God   in your  heart    this world cannot contain it !!,,,

   The   same glory that was  before the world was ,as faith is the works that Glorify   GOD   THOUGH THE SON [ALL THINGS ]...  John 17 Prayer for the Son and those sons birthed though  JESUS CHRIST ....


...4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Proverbs 8:23
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:1
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

1 Peter 1:21
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.


:HeartThrob:  Oh the revelations/unveiling   of Jesus Christ and His testimony /witness   !!! wow   :banana:

[GodIsLove]

:thumbsup: cardinal, very true

You got that and understood it?
None of us can know we made the right decision, "in truth"? That should be troubling.

And how many times have you asked Him and got a "right" decision answer? I Know I have asked and well never got a solid answer one way or the other. So I did what ever I did and it was "the letter and our conscience" what does that mean? And I couldn't go wrong that way. :Chinscratch:

I think there are a lot more grey areas in Christianity than people like to believe.

I think there are times that we don't truly know the right course of action but God knows. The bible, contrary to what some think, isn't a rule book. It's a love story from God to mankind, an unfolding story of humanity. The bible does teach us how to live the best life possible, but it is often cloaked in parables and metaphor, and sometimes it is seemingly contradictory unless the context and the Holy Spirit guide our understanding.

For example, ok, the bible is clear homosexuality is sin, we all agree. But our law is to love God and love one another. How do we show love? It is different based on the circumstance. I could think I shouldn't go to this wedding, for example, because I would be seen as condoning homosexuality, or I could think I should go to show love and keep the door open in the relationship so that I can continue to share/show God's love with this person. Which scenario would bring about the better end result? We honestly don't know, only God knows. We can guess, but life is often more unpredictable than we think.

I have asked for guidance from God and some people claim to hear an answer, but like you, I never have. But I do think I get answers somehow anyway. I only usually can tell retrospectively.

I think that what Cardinal means is if we are following our conscience, and we are truly walking with God, we can't be condemned for doing so, even if somehow our actions didn't bring about the end result we thought they would.

An example of thinking we are doing right but aren't:
A friend was a new convert and took ideas from the bible to live separately and not associate with nonbelievers, and cut ties with family and friends. This person for a period of time didn't leave the door open to share God's love and instead was like the person who buried the talents in the parable. Also, everyone thought this person was hateful and had joined a cult. If we as Christians are the face of Jesus on earth to nonbelievers we need to be careful how we portray ourselves/Him.

Yes sometimes love doesn't look like love, but that can't be an excuse to do things that actually aren't truly loving and just say, well that's love, sorry you don't perceive it that way. It's the difference between a loving parent who gives their kid a fair consequence but does so truly with love in their heart and the desire to show the child the right way, versus a parent that dishes out unfair punishments out of anger or self-righteousness, but then says they are doing it out of love.

[micah7:9]

Would the witness of your friendship benefit more by going to the wedding or by refusing to go?

If Jesus was invited to the wedding would He attend or refuse?

Remember "Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,"

Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
  rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
  beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[GodIsLove]

Would the witness of your friendship benefit more by going to the wedding or by refusing to go?

If Jesus was invited to the wedding would He attend or refuse?

Remember "Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,"

Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
  rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
  beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

I tend to agree with you but it's not my decision to make :)

[Seth]

I don't think it's a good idea to convince people to act outside of their consciences just because you think it's ok for you. That which is without faith is a sin. That's the same reason I don't go around convincing people to celebrate Christmas to be good witnesses for Christ if they feel they shouldn't. Micah, I mean this with all due respect, but I think you are being inconsistent.

[Shev]

I still think all things should be seen through the lens of Jesus Christ first, not our own emotions. In all the debates about rules vs love, I can't help hearing His words to the churches of Revelation:

To Ephesus:
Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.  5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

To Pergamos:
But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.  15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[a]  16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

To Thyatira:
Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[c] that woman[d] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[e] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.  21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[f]  22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[g] deeds.  23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

To Sardis:
"I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.  2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a]  3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

To Laodicea:
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.  16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth.  17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—  18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

This sure sounds like overcoming is a serious process, and that the Lord has certain expectations of His church. I know that there are much symbolism in revelation, and also that it is He that overcomes within us, but these problems in Revelation are still spiritual realities within the church. Emotions are great servants but lousy masters, and if we make our emotions the basis for our spiritual walk, we will suffer shipwreck.

If the Lord's comments above came from one of His followers, many would say they had a "weak conscience", and was terribly judgmental, being so concerned with this and that rather than just loving. Yet I fear we may misunderstand the love of God if we think it means Him allowing His children to grow up without discipline, or that Christ fulfilling the law means we act according to our heart's desire.

There is liberty in the Lord, yet paradoxically, also constraint. We are set free from sin, but within that freedom we learn to be bound more and more to the will of the Father. So our maturity is not a story of increased independence and self sufficiency as in the natural realm, but a closer and closer apprehension of His will. After all, the only perfectly mature Son to date said the following:

"When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things."

[Seth]

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

[Seth]

I'd like to pose a question to the participants of this conversation.

Why didn't Paul think it was good for a brother to eat meat sacrificed to idols with a brother who thinks it's wrong?

[micah7:9]

I don't think it's a good idea to convince people to act outside of their consciences just because you think it's ok for you. That which is without faith is a sin. That's the same reason I don't go around convincing people to celebrate Christmas to be good witnesses for Christ if they feel they shouldn't. Micah, I mean this with all due respect, but I think you are being inconsistent.

I was certainly not my thought to "convince" any one to do or not to do. I believe my first post was he is your friend go to the wedding, it was not meant to convince. He is who he is.
My understanding of late(that's just me)that a good many of us, no matter how much we believe we are getting somewhere are still moored to the denominations and sects once involved in.
As for me, I really don't know what to do about these times. Homosexuality IS HERE,(people who may have been our closest friends are not who we or they thought they were) people trying to infiltrate and kill us(look just like any other American) IS HERE, technology(replacing books and old fashioned education) IS HERE. I am going to say I really, I mean really don't know how to advise someone anymore. :sigh: :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:
So I'm done :Peace2:

[rosered]

I'd like to pose a question to the participants of this conversation.

Why didn't Paul think it was good for a brother to eat meat sacrificed to idols with a brother who thinks it's wrong?

     Because he is weak in faith , just read that whole chapter       this morning ...

     Putting  a stumbling block  in your brothers way who has a  weak conscience   

Another is   how    you use your  law  of  Liberty ...
   
But as Micah said , Aerex will do as he does ...   

   and everyone  is in different places in the Lord       

  We  are in the  days when knowledge will be increased  Dan 12     

[GodIsLove]

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

[jabcat]

I am going to say I really, I mean really don't know how to advise someone anymore. :sigh: :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:
So I'm done :Peace2:

:nod:  Brother micah, maybe we're old dogs and these are new tricks. 

:wink3:

Kidding of course.  I believe we both know the truth stays the same, but it does get harder to sort through it all and stand for it.  The times they are a'changing... "but My Word remains the same".     :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

I am going to say I really, I mean really don't know how to advise someone anymore. :sigh: :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:
So I'm done :Peace2:

:nod:  Brother micah, maybe we're old dogs and these are new tricks. 

:wink3:

Kidding of course.  I believe we both know the truth stays the same, but it does get harder to sort through it all and stand for it.  The times they are a'changing... "but My Word remains the same".     :HeartThrob:

Amen!  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

  You are so right ,
  He did!! 

   30th High school reunion ,   
  There was a table with    those that still drink     , AS i had years ago , but we sat and  had the best time   ever    old friends ,,,

  Those whom have never touched the stuff  sat at their table     ....

  It was easier  for me to choose  because LOVE never changes  no matter what the  circumstance is ...

  Its not like he is choosing homosexuality  for himself ...   He is choosing to be amongst friends ,..

I just do not understand the  quandary ?    :sigh:

[Seth]

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Yeah  :thumbsup: that's why I say I don't know if Jesus would attend. Aerex's friend knows, but what about everyone else? Weddings are there for people to celebrate the union. If God says it's a sin, what's to celebrate? We're together to toast the groom and groom when God says such a thing is unnatural (Romans 1)? We don't have to be perfect in our walk to be uncomfortable with that.

The "why" does matter and that's why I say that my answer is that Aerex shouldn't do anything unless he is fully convinced in his.mind.

Whether I think it's ok or not isn't the point. It's whether Aerex is acting in faith and not bending to pressure to please man.

[jabcat]

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Yeah  :thumbsup: that's why I say I don't know if Jesus would attend. Aerex's friend knows, but what about everyone else? Weddings are there for people to celebrate the union. If God says it's a sin, what's to celebrate? We're together to toast the groom and groom when God says such a thing is unnatural (Romans 1)? We don't have to be perfect in our walk to be uncomfortable with that.

The "why" does matter and that's why I say that my answer is that Aerex shouldn't do anything unless he is fully convinced in his.mind.

Whether I think it's ok or not isn't the point. It's whether Aerex is acting in faith and not bending to pressure to please man.

:thumbsup:

micah's post and the replies got me thinking.  It's the old "WWJD" (what would Jesus do) deal.  I of course can only speculate, perhaps with leading of the Holy Spirit.  But I personally believe HE would go - for a purpose.  I believe He would kindly admonish the people present what marriage really means, how it's to be holy in nature, and what it represents, and that it's not legitimate within same-sex.  I think He would offer them forgiveness, and then instruct them to believe on Him and to live for Him from that moment on, following Him rather than doing what's right in their (our) own eyes.   :2c:

[micah7:9]

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Yeah  :thumbsup: that's why I say I don't know if Jesus would attend. Aerex's friend knows, but what about everyone else? Weddings are there for people to celebrate the union. If God says it's a sin, what's to celebrate? We're together to toast the groom and groom when God says such a thing is unnatural (Romans 1)? We don't have to be perfect in our walk to be uncomfortable with that.

The "why" does matter and that's why I say that my answer is that Aerex shouldn't do anything unless he is fully convinced in his.mind.

Whether I think it's ok or not isn't the point. It's whether Aerex is acting in faith and not bending to pressure to please man.

:thumbsup:

micah's post and the replies got me thinking.  It's the old "WWJD" (what would Jesus do) deal.  I of course can only speculate, perhaps with leading of the Holy Spirit.  But I personally believe HE would go - for a purpose.  I believe He would kindly admonish the people present what marriage really means, how it's to be holy in nature, and what it represents, and that it's not legitimate within same-sex.  I think He would offer them forgiveness, and then instruct them to believe on Him and to live for Him from that moment on, following Him rather than doing what's right in their (our) own eyes.   :2c:

Thank you Jab. I don't really know anything today, except I believe Jesus would go, and His purpose, well that just leaves me wondering. Happy New Year :dsunny: