Tentmaker Forum

I have a huge dilemma. On of my best friends is getting married and he is a homosexual. He is asking me to come to his wedding and he knows that I am against his homosexuality. I have known him for over 10 years and I am not willing to forfeit my friendship over this. At the same time I don't want to compromise my faith. I am going to pray and meditate on this. The wedding is in October so I have time to get think about it.

It is a dilemma of sorts, but really there's a truth to be found.  Your conscience will "talk" to you.  Also, there are multiple scriptures that talk about not condoning sin, not participating in it, and actually separating ourselves from it.  It sounds like your heart's in the right place and you intend to follow the scriptures as best you can.  So there are also the scriptures that talk about loving a person.  So a thought might be;  let him know you value him, love him, will continue to treat him kindly etc.  But that your conscience and what you believe won't allow you to acknowledge/condone/participate (whatever term best fits - Paul used "approve") and you feel you'd be doing so by attending the ceremony.  All I can say is that's how I personally see it, everyone has their own conscience (hopefully saturated with the Word of God) and you may get other views.  But that's mine, hope it's helpful.

Pray to Father about it,Aerex..He is a wonderful counselor..may He direct you in what is appropriate in this issue with your friend.

Honour the friendship and don't do the sin....That's all you can do...Remember Mercy rejoices over judgement. That's my 2 cents worth.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Quote from: watchman1706 on January 05, 2016, 11:19:25 AM
Honour the friendship and don't do the sin....That's all you can do...Remember Mercy rejoices over judgement. That's my 2 cents worth.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

  Good to see you posting again  Watchman !!  Good advice !!!   :thumbsup:

I agree   with you ...

I just  understood something  recently  that I do believe the Holy Spirit taught me  and learning to listen ...

I do not know why it took so long for   me to understand this ....  but it did  :mshrug:

   I think it was because I wanted to be loving   like Jesus , but was  not able to be on my own , it did take   God to change me and had to wait on the Lord  to do it 

and this is in His power  to do   and time ,  not anything  else will   change us  , you just have to suffer though it .

    LOVING GOD FIRST and than everyone else  ,   and being carnal it is  impossible to do  , yet you don't think your carnal , but spiritual  and your not .

  Until   your own man of sin is exposed  , you are a judge and a unjust one at that ..  you judge  what is good and what is evil continually  , but this is still eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil      and the evil is present      ... 
Just as Paul says  , you go to do good and evil is present         ,  not realizing the evil is in you !!!
Because evil does not love    righteously , but is a respecter of persons , it does love its own only ...   and thinks very highly of its opinion .

  You being evil  know how to give good gifts to your children  , How much more will   the Father give good gifts [ Holy Spirit ] to those whom ask Him ...

  We just got to keep on asking  , knocking and seeking   more of HIM     and less   and less of  our  own  , minds ideas and  judgments

Because you are judging the LAW ...   and that will put you in a world of hurt            ...

  fiery trial   after fiery trial  after fiery trial       and never getting it right , your man of sin is burning with anger   and  burning that pride   right out of you !!     Very humbling  indeed
  There is one LAWGIVER AND JUDGE  who is able to save and destroy     and   who are we to judge our brother/ neighbour  ?    James 4 ;12

We bring  judgment on our own heads    when  we do    this ...

    All flesh is judged already   as condemned/ worthless and  unprofitable        , sin in our flesh is doomed   from the beginning  of eating from that TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL ..

  We are so busy judging  what is good and what is evil   , we forget to LIVE !!!!!    We forget  to LOVE   ,    we forget  to forgive and  show mercy !!!!

so as we judge  we are BEING JUDGED   BY THE VERY WORD OF GOD / LAW   judges us all now  !  NOW ....

We are always kicking against the goads /pricks     a Greek proverb, but it was also familiar to the Jews and anyone who made a living in agriculture.

An ox goad was a stick with a pointed piece of iron on its tip used to prod the oxen when plowing.

The farmer would prick the animal to steer it in the right direction.

Sometimes the animal would rebel by kicking out at the prick, and this would result in the prick being driven even further into its flesh.

In essence, the more an ox rebelled, the more it suffered. Thus, Jesus' words to Saul on the road to Damascus: "It is hard for you to kick against the pricks."

I am not going to judge  homosexuality  any longer but let God judge them and love them anyways !!! 

I now  know  , and cannot   deny    it any  more  ,   the TRUTH  , and   the world will hate you   for this  , because it hated God first   

   instead of LOVING GOD FIRST  ,as commanded   to do ,  IT HATED GOD   and will hate you also    because it is evil   and loves its own  only .

But our hope is this    greater is HE that is in you  than what is in the world !!!    overcoming evil with good       , that Good  is GOD  and  God is LOVE  and GOD IS SPIRIT  & TRUTH   , and this is the only way to be set free  from the world   and all that is in it   

   If you want mercy show mercy    , you can only be content and satisfied by what God  gives  of Himself     to you     , You want to see God now  ? ,  This is possible with God       , keeping our hearts  pure and Holy and unspotted from the world     , that is not to judge , but LIVE  IN THE SPIRIT & TRUTH  , The tree of Life  is explained in the Revelation of Jesus Christ   to the Full ..   

  Matt 5
...6"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God....

  :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:     :HeartThrob: 

I am just concerned that my friend will think less of me or worse loose my friendship because I don't want to be at his wedding. A persons wedding is very important and being his oldest and closest friend would look like a sign of betrayal. He has done so much for me over the years and I wouldn't be when I am without him. I don't want to lose him over this. He knows that  I don't approve it. I just don't understand why God has put me in this position. Does he want me to loose all of my friends just for him, then I will be alone.

I loved your post Rosered.. (tho I loved everyone's posts!) And so interesting about the goad! I never knew that (or if I did, I forgot). And when I was reading it i thought, the farmer could, during times of ox docility (and yield, yielding) merely use the non sharp side of the goad to guide.. (I'm always looking for the easy way out?) I loved what you said about our human nature.. so true! ..Jesus when viewing the crowd had empathy that they were so buffeted about..

----
I have a soft spot in my heart for gay men (it's easier for me, being female, than with gay women)
I agree with all.. listening for the voice of the Lord, the Shepherd is the way to go.. the number one go to..

And how we have to listen to our own conscience, 2nd, I guess(?)

When I go home to visit to new england my brother throws a barbecue and party.. we play softball, horseshoes.. good talk, good music.. Oops, I'm straying! (I try to go once a year.) At the get together, there is usually at least three gay couples. Two female, one male. No one has asked me what I think, they may know I am christian and trying to portray love/tolerance. But if someone should ask me I would tell them how much I love them, and then that no i don't think it's natural ...but we are all sinner's.. and how much I love them..

If I wanted to do it any different I don't think I could. And I do love them lots.. If there was openness, or even if I just had to slip it in, I'd also let them know how very much Jesus loves them.. with a smile and,or a hug.. (again the easy way.. His yoke is easy and burden is light..?:)

There's two things I think I want to start saying any time they're at all relevant, in conversation with others and at social events, "God is love" and "hell is a pre-christian myth" - I know I need one more (very. brief.) "about u.r." -

Universal Reconciliation (the 3 r's, repentance, redemption, reconciliation) i think, gives freedom to love.. since all are 'destined' to be forgiven and reconciled.. since all sin will be forgiven (and every speck of sin/"missing the mark" abhorred) ..I just think it's easier to love our fellow person saved and not yet saved..
:Peace2: I didn't mean to ramble on so..

Quote from: Aerex on January 05, 2016, 04:24:42 PM
I am just concerned that my friend will think less of me or worse loose my friendship because I don't want to be at his wedding. A persons wedding is very important and being his oldest and closest friend would look like a sign of betrayal. He has done so much for me over the years and I wouldn't be when I am without him. I don't want to lose him over this. He knows that  I don't approve it. I just don't understand why God has put me in this position. Does he want me to loose all of my friends just for him, then I will be alone.

..don't forget, Aerex, that the untrue voice will also be in the mix.. (when it comes to listening) "his yoke is easy, his burden is light.. ..truth sets free.."

My conscious is telling me is it really worth losing your friend, your brother over one sin? I know God is testing me to see if I love God more than my friends and I don't think I do. What ever decision I make I am going to feel guilty :(

have you considered..giving God's things to God and Caesar's to Caesar?. Send a gift..money/Caesar's image....since our government

  legalized this..........sign accompanying card with love[do not be oweing anyone anything except to love one another.]

     

  Love everyones posts!!   
  Thanks Marie I agree  about the Farmer  &ox      and     with you on the  homosexual   thing  ,  we have  a family member   whom is  a son of  my hubbys  cousin and his wife , I do love  Gabe for Gabe  , I do not see  him as just that , but connect to his  person  and    being our selves , no pretense   or faking friendship , I do love this young man and want what is best for him ....

  All flesh is corrupt  and  when we judge the flesh ours is judged also  ....by faith I consider    mine dead already  because of sin  , and his too  , but love his spirit
he is loving  and kind   and funny ..  and always makes me laugh .
  John 8 is powerful  in WORD and deed     Jesus Christ speaks of this .

14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going;

but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.


15"You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.


16"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me....

    WORD spoken judges us  all ,      Jesus come to save the world  !  lest we forget ....
I do believe  whole heartedly      LOVE     stronger than    sin and    sin is deaths sting  .... and it is everyone's destiny   to be made ALIVE IN CHRIST

  Every knee will bow and tongue confess the Lord Jesus Christ  ,   for He ALONE  is the Lord of the dead and the living .....   :HeartThrob:

Mark 12;17  regarding the  tempting of Jesus.....guilt and accusation is the object of the temptor......to accuse you before God night and

day.  It is a trap and snare...your sharing you will feel guilty regardless of your choice....the betrayl of God or the betrayl of your friend.

   I desire you be free of a guilty conscience..unto God and all men.


   I ask...'if one of your married buddies..wanted you to get involved and facilitate/support him in having an adulterous affair...

  would you do it? or would you say..".hey bro..don't involve me in this..'I want no part of it"  your my bro..but I 'm not going along with it.keep me out of it.

   My grand-daughter lives with her boyfriend...I love them both.  but when under my roof..they do not sleep in the same bed.For

my conscience sake before God.They do not see this as a betrayl of my love for them.


  talk to your friend about it..ascertain if he would feel like you betrayed him if you didn't attend..you might be surprised by what he

says to you..and how he would not want you feeling guilty about it.Talk to God about it,too. He may tell you..even if your own heart

condemn you,He is greater then your own heart.

  May He guide you in the way of peace..with God and men.

 :cloud9: Follow your peace; it will lead you. Which idea (to go or not to go) gives you HIS peace? That will be your answer.

I was faced with a similar situation once, in that my friend's daughter was warned of God through a dream I had, not to marry the young man she took up with. I saw him in the dream and described him perfectly though I had never seen him in the natural. I was invited to the wedding, as she didn't listen, and I was torn because her mother was my best friend and I watched the girl grow up.

Finally, the Lord broke through my confusion and asked me when the prophets of Israel in the OT gave a word of warning to the people from God, did the prophets then go and join them in their sinning against the Lord? I said no, and I didn't go.

The marriage was a disaster from the beginning, he was abusive to their only child and to her, and he ended up committing suicide. Blessings....

Good thoughts in this thread.  A few that my view particularly alligns with

Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2016, 10:23:05 PM

Finally, the Lord broke through my confusion and asked me when the prophets of Israel in the OT gave a word of warning to the people from God, did the prophets then go and join them in their sinning against the Lord? I said no, and I didn't go.

Quote from: sheila on January 05, 2016, 07:37:07 PM

   I ask...'if one of your married buddies..wanted you to get involved and facilitate/support him in having an adulterous affair...

  would you do it? or would you say..".hey bro..don't involve me in this..'I want no part of it"  your my bro..but I 'm not going along with it.keep me out of it.

   My grand-daughter lives with her boyfriend...I love them both.  but when under my roof..they do not sleep in the same bed.For

my conscience sake before God.They do not see this as a betrayl of my love for them.


  talk to your friend about it..ascertain if he would feel like you betrayed him if you didn't attend..you might be surprised by what he

says to you..
  May He guide you in the way of peace..with God and men.

Quote from: sheila on January 05, 2016, 06:17:02 PM
have you considered..giving God's things to God and Caesar's to Caesar?. Send a gift..money/Caesar's image....since our government

  legalized this..........sign accompanying card with love[do not be oweing anyone anything except to love one another.]

     

:thumbsup:

I don't know the answer, hopefully God will show it to you. Some thoughts though...

If we are to not associate with any sinfulness, then are you prepared to live a life as a hermit? Oh wait, even then you are not 100% free from sin.

I think I have a personal bias against transgender people. I have a goal to love and respect all people and it is hard to do.

Anyway, I was home recently and a transgender person came to my door and I felt revulsed, suspicious and scared. Not the feelings you'd have for someone you love and respect (while viewing their behavior as unnatural or sinful I still want to love them).

I tried to just not answer the door but the person saw me in the window. I cracked the door and the person was looking for the pastor of a church I live near.

I said if he wasn't at the church I didn't know where he was and shut the door.

I almost immediate felt regret and went to see if the person was still there but he was gone.

I regretted it because he was looking for a pastor and I could have asked why. I could have shared my faith and universal reconciliation with him!

Instead fear made me shun and drive him away.

I felt like God sent this person to me to show me my bias.

I also struggle with the line people draw with certain sin and not other. Most of my family drinks heavily, should I not attend their weddings? My family sometimes gambles. They lie on occasion. My brother in law and many cousins live with their significant other (not married). Many of my friends are atheists. My good friend has several gay friends that are at her son's birthday. My friends and family gossip.

I guess I am saying sin is all around us in this fallen world, how can we avoid it?

Not to mention all the sin I did prior to God working on me!

Now I try to be an example not a judge.

I do think homosexuality is missing the mark and carnal and not how God intended. But I think all sin is sin, and only God can convict people and change their hearts. Until then they are self-destructing (given over to their desires, turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh).

Years ago I would have not gone to that friends wedding. I was a new  Born Again Christian and had gone to a church that preached about "The Sins of The Saints". They were against just about everything and being new I bought the whole package! I used to drink a beer or two a few times a year but never drank much as I preferred tea.

Then I went to my sisters wedding and was offered a beer by some relatives and declined to take one because it was "SIN" or so I had been led to believe. Let's just say my self-righteous attitude stunk and almost all my relatives jeered etc. and most of the relationships were destroyed for many many years. God showed me that my thoughts in regards to that beer were just religious and my actions were taken as judgments against them. That ended any chance of me sharing Christ with them and probably did more harm than good.

Speaking of a Homosexual lifestyle--well that is not my preference or persuasion. Myself I would go just because the person is a friend and I wouldn't want them to think I was condemning them for their choice. In fact I've come to believe that the flesh is so fallen some folks are just born that way and to them what we find distasteful seems normal to them. To those folks what we find normal is abnormal to them. I think it might be the wires in their brain are somehow screwed up at birth. I'm sure some it's just a choice but many others it's doing what seems right to them. God doesn't judge after the flesh but after the heart. In fact Jesus said He and the Father were one and that The Father judges No Man and Jesus said he didn't judge. So if me not going would be construed by my friend as judging him unworthy of my presence and I represent Christ might he also see that as rejection by Christ.

Now lets pretend today is the Old Biblical Times. Here is what I think would be written about this event:

There was a wedding in the United States and was for two gay men. Jesus and his friends were invited and the Pharisee's watched to see what Jesus would do since he had a reputation of eating and hanging out around sinners. Sure enough Jesus went to the wedding because he consider both men as friends. He loved those guys and a crazy thing happened at the wedding feast. They ran smack dab out of beer! The folks asked Mary if she could help and she told Jesus your friends are running out of beer and it's going to spoil the feast. The folks are going to think they are a bunch of cheapskates can't you do something. Then the Pharisee's watch closely and were horrified when Jesus had them bring two kegs filled with water and turned those into two kegs full of Michelob Beer. It caused no small stir that's for sure. 

Wow, I agree some really good posts here.. But also some differing views and likely the Lord has use for each view.. I pray for peace in knowing His will of attitude for each of us in all these things. And that there be no feelings of guilt. We have to follow our own convictions on what is most faithful to Him.

He1MyHeart, that last paragraph was pretty funny! :laugh: I liked the rest of your post too.. (Liked all the posts tho too :smile: ) I almost forgot! Your thought about the flesh being so fallen some may be born gay, hit a chord with me. I've thought it to be a choice, even tho I consider there is strong suggestion it is not always merely choice.. It's easy to think, when it comes to drug or alcohol addiction, or even other things, there but for the grace of God, but I'd never considered that about this issue..

GodIsLove, that is surely an interesting experience, I'm glad I got to read about it. :smile:

(edit - apparently was typing while you were marie :)     According to very clear scriptures, some things are not just preference or persuasion (we have some links to prior discussions which show scriptural clarity if desired, including regarding possible predisposition and tendencies vs. continued choices of action and behavior;  ignoring/condoning vs. repenting and looking to Jesus for deliverance and strength to remain faithful).

A matter of conscience has been stressed, which I personally believe is right.  However, as also noted, I believe our conscience needs to be saturated and grounded in the scriptures, not just "what I think is right in my own mind".  Some very good thoughts have been shared about the Lord's leading, our conscience, etc.   :thumbsup:

A few thoughts;  I agree, sin is all around is.  I think we need to be aware of making (spiritual) distinctions in many situations about being in the world, but not of it.  Jesus did spend time with sinners, absolutely.  But it's been a  belief of mine that He did so, not just to revel (spoken against by Paul) but to change them (He was JESUS and could change them - for us, that might mean influence, be a witness, have truth and Life to share when led and the door's opened, etc.)       Also, I agree, Jesus didn't judge and condemn.  But He didn't stop there.  He also said HIS WORDS have already judged.  There is right and wrong, truth and lie, darkness and light - and I believe we're to find our way to the "right" side of those things as the Spirit leads and empowers.  Self-righteousness to not participate or condone?  I don't personally necessarily believe so.  If the motives, heart, spirit is right, and love is present, I don't believe we actually should necessarily go along just to make some sort of peace.  The world will scoff.  That's what they do.  Paul said don't count it a privilege to take abuse for doing wrong, but rather for doing what's right. 

As far as not going might be seen as rejecting them, I think that's why conversation up front and afterward, and being as loving and respectful as possible is important (as others have mentioned).  Making it clear the person isn't being rejected, but that it's a matter of personal conscience.  I believe there's a distinction that can in fact be made between "sin being all around us" and "choosing to acknowledge/participate/revel" in sin.  Again, Paul talked of condoning sin, particularly in the specific context of the verses,  the sin of active homosexuality.  He basically did "condemn" (as in clearly saying it was wrong/sinful) the participant, then went on to also "condemn" anyone approving/condoning the behavior.  They are hard sayings, sometimes difficult for us to accept.  I think we'd often rather it just be easier (I KNOW I would).  Sometimes there's a cross to bear.  Bottom line though, life throws us many such dilemmas and struggles, and that's why I believe each individual's conscience comes into play.  There's not always a one size fits all answer.  I say that with one major caveat.  If I believe my conscience is OK with something, or that some issue "really is OK after all, it's become normal in society/whatever", but, the scriptures clearly teach otherwise - then I believe my own personal beliefs, behavior, and conscience need to be heavily influenced (and likely changed) by that and the Spirit of God.  I've personally played all kinds of games with it, i.e., "well, it says this, but if I just do a little bit, or just once in awhile, it's really OK". 

So anyway, this doesn't really need to turn into "just another homosexuality" thread :)      Areax has some tough decisions to make, and I reckon we should pray for him and support him.  Blessings. 

I, for one, totally agree!

And I know that personally I take the easy way.. most often the path of least resistance. I also have a problem with authority figures which is probably more the reason I stayed an at home believer/spiritual hermit than because I didn't buy the whole mean God thing.

I know too it is possible my acquaintances and family (involved) may not be aware that I do not approve or think it natural, etc. I think yes, some may think as a Christian I have joined the world in it's crazy (pseudo?) tolerance. But some others know my attitude, that I love (them) a lot but believe it to be 'wrong' and not acceptable.

It's also true that my baby sister likely smoked herself to death and I never joined the chorus of you better quit (and not pick it back up again) ..but would she have listened? Or would she have quit calling me? She had so many issues/sufferings ('began' w leukemia.. but now I really aM straying! :smile: )

I know the LORD (our Father, Old Testament) and Romans does make special mention of it. I'm not often in the mix with people.. The whole world lieth in wickedness. Wars, cheating spouses, sex sells/entertains and other things.. all horrors. This world, what a nightmare...
:Peace2: :smile:

1 Corinthians "9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sisterc but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

If we look at this passage it makes a distinction between a believer and a nonbeliever right? Because a believer who actively engages in immorality is being hypocritical and ignoring or going against the Holy Spirit.

So does that come into play? Is this person a Christian?

 :Chinscratch: ...when i visit and stay with my brother, sister in law, their kids and grandkids and my sister in laws siblings and family and during their family/friend get together, I am seen by most as being different. They know I'm not a liberal, so think of me as a republican (and Christian) which are both egads to them! (more libertarian actually).

So it's not as harmonious as we manage to make it be. I believe they all like me quite well, but there's still some distrust I guess I would call it.

I'm SO glad I know of universal redemption/reconciliation! That I can stand on the Rock that Truth remains standing. It alone endures. All untruth will cease to be. Otherwise a person could go plum crazy! :smile:

idk is a 'preacher' marrying them?Aerex 'conscience' is at issue. I am glad we have a thread about it....you never know when it might be you

in a similiar situation..and Im glad for the various perspectives being brought out.

 

Good thoughts Marie :)

Quote from: sheila on January 06, 2016, 05:59:06 AM
you never know when it might be you in a similiar situation.
 

yep

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 06, 2016, 05:29:21 AM
1 Corinthians "9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sisterc but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

If we look at this passage it makes a distinction between a believer and a nonbeliever right? Because a believer who actively engages in immorality is being hypocritical and ignoring or going against the Holy Spirit.

So does that come into play? Is this person a Christian?

Interesting question for Aerax, as he knows the person well.

I agree this particular passage and its context is about believers and within the body - apostacy, derelict behavior of those naming the name of Christ.  There are of course many other scrips that don't address this particular aspect of within the body, but more of a general addressing separation, not condoning, etc. (including romans 1:26-32).   Glad you're looking for specificity, sounds like Areax (and all of us, in various situations) can use the guidance. :)   :thumbsup:

It's a jungle out there...  :Peace2:   "I send you out as sheep among wolves.." - Jesus to the apostles.

Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2016, 06:04:38 AM
  "I send you out as sheep among wolves.." - Jesus to the apostles.

oh, and "be you wise as serpents and harmless as doves"..

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

For my two cents, I worry that we can be so earnest in showing how loving we are to the world, that we can ignore the Lord. For the scriptures speak of marriage as a mystery concerning Christ and the church, and therefore marriage itself is a symbol for a deep spiritual reality that is integral to the gospel and the glory of the Lord. For me, to give any kind of approval, whether implicit or explicit, to a gay wedding, is to bear false witness to the mystery of Christ and the church, and make out Jesus to be a self-lover (of which homosexuality is a parable, among other things, being in love with one's mirror image) rather than a lover of His bride.

For me, we must ALWAYS start with the reality of Jesus Christ Himself, and that is not always going to come across as loving. We should certainly make every effort to come across as loving, but there are simply times we will be misunderstood, and that can't be helped. Declining to attend a gay marriage because of Christ does not make you a hater of homosexuals, but a lover of the truth.

I liked what Jabcat wrote about not all scriptures being about persuasion or preference. Paul was very earnest in his contention for the truth and the sound doctrine of Christ. This was not a cultural thing, but the actions of a man who had seen the risen Christ and been commissioned by Him.

Sometimes we will love people without them realizing it, just as God does His creation.

 :thumbsup:

Well, it is a hard problem. Personally I think that thou shouldst free thy mind from this worry and let our heavenly Father speak...imo

I so agree  Lorenzo   !!!!!!   Lord  says  pray to Him in secret ...........

"When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

"When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. Don't be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!

GOD KNOWS   our hearts so much better than we know them ourselves  !!
  Them hidden a deep dark places  of our hearts where  evil resides     

  May His Holy Spirit  fire &  light Shine  upon  all  hearts and making them pure clean and Holy before Him , that ONLY HE can do ... :HeartThrob:

Yup! What Rosered and Lorenzo said  :iagree:

Hi Aerex,  My first post here on tentmaker...here's my take on your delima.  IF you love me, feed my sheep.  To feed His sheep is to love Him.  Our delima, "All we like sheep have gone astray and turned every on to our own way".  In the beginning we were all in the bosom of the Father, one in the fold of eternal spirit.  We went astray at our physical birth.  Not because we chose to, but the curse fell upon our knowing our "sheep" identity.  We forever will be in this fold, but for our time on earth it is ours to awaken to our eternal holy sheep status.  Yours and my "being astray in our own way" is no different than your gay friend's path.  Your friend is God, a part of the flock in the bosom of the Shepherd.  He awaits the shepherd seeking him to bring him home.  You are in the shepherd's fold and we are told to feed his sheep.  Bring him back to his rightful home.  To feed His sheep is to love alone.  I would make him a wedding cake, support his heart,  celebrate with him and let love have its way.  The blood of the lamb has done its work...it is finished...

Usually we can know what our deep conviction is and what our conscience tells us in about a third of a second. The hard part is doing what the conscience says. I haven't been good at that always myself, being weak and mortal. It's difficult, brother.

 :cloud9: I had a similar situation with the drink being offered  years ago. I was working as the front desk manager of a Radisson hotel that was closing down and they had a party in the basement the last night it was open. Problem was the hotel was full and I had to work 26 hours straight because all the other front desk staff but one part timer quit in anger because the company didn't tell us they were closing until 3 days before.

So the manager sent someone to relieve me so I could join them downstairs for a few minutes and I was praying all the way down because they all knew I was Christian, and I knew they would offer me a drink of champagne, which they did. He had me to sip it, and they were much more open to everything I had shared in the previous 18 months. I had prayed everyday for my coworkers on my way to work, and after this I ran into many of them, and I counted about 20 out of a staff of over a 100, that had come to the Lord that I ran into months down the road.

I felt He was telling me that not to was to condemn them, and because the motive of my heart was not to be a stumbling block to my brethren, it was not sin for ME, so I could drink a glass with them and still be a light. One plants the seed, another waters. Blessings...

Cardinal, thanks for sharing that story.

Steven, good post as well.

Even with the slightly different opinions on this thread, you can tell everyone's motive is to love God and love others. Good stuff :)

Just go to the wedding of your friend :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 07, 2016, 01:06:25 AM
Just go to the wedding of your friend :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Dear bro, he may indeed feel OK or even that somehow/for some reason it's the Lord's will if He gives him a specific purpose to go.  On the other hand, he might would be compromising and offend his conscience. 

Personally though, for an example (and I truly struggle with such things often);  if I went, I'm positive I would feel guilt, like I had been a bad witness, and would need to repent for what I would feel would be giving tacit approval by my acknowledgement of the ceremony. (good post Shev  :thumbsup:)     

That being the case, would you advise I just go anyway, or seriously, what further thoughts/suggestions do you have about something like this that might offend/go against my conscience?  Thanks :)

Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2016, 06:14:09 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2016, 06:04:38 AM
  "I send you out as sheep among wolves.." - Jesus to the apostles.

oh, and "be you wise as serpents and harmless as doves"..

:thumbsup: I agree it's a jungle, we are sheep among wolves.. and we should be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves! The last verse veRy much resonates with me..

Quote from: Shev on January 06, 2016, 09:00:12 AM
For my two cents, I worry that we can be so earnest in showing how loving we are to the world, that we can ignore the Lord. For the scriptures speak of marriage as a mystery concerning Christ and the church, and therefore marriage itself is a symbol for a deep spiritual reality that is integral to the gospel and the glory of the Lord. For me, to give any kind of approval, whether implicit or explicit, to a gay wedding, is to bear false witness to the mystery of Christ and the church, and make out Jesus to be a self-lover (of which homosexuality is a parable, among other things, being in love with one's mirror image) rather than a lover of His bride.

For me, we must ALWAYS start with the reality of Jesus Christ Himself, and that is not always going to come across as loving. We should certainly make every effort to come across as loving, but there are simply times we will be misunderstood, and that can't be helped. Declining to attend a gay marriage because of Christ does not make you a hater of homosexuals..

Wow Shev, that about the church and the Lord, I've read and thought about before of course, but that was awesome and it really does make one think.. I've always, since saved, not approved of gay marriage, it's very sad really..

As a race (human) we can be so very ruinous can't we..

Quote from: He1MyHeart on January 06, 2016, 01:53:03 PM

Yup! What Rosered and Lorenzo said  :iagree:

Me too! And liked Cardinal's story.. And well everyone's sharing their thoughts.. I think this is a 'tough-y' that's for sure! What I think I learned in this thread is in every instance to lean on the Lord and His guidance by His Spirit.. And of course that never leads to any sort of debauchery!

...we let our conscience, His quiet voice and His word lead us..

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 07, 2016, 12:21:29 AM

Even with the slightly different opinions on this thread, you can tell everyone's motive is to love God and love others.

I agree, GodIsLove!  :thumbsup: :smile:

Quote from: stevenhawk7 on January 06, 2016, 06:44:59 PM

IF you love me, feed my sheep...

Very interesting observation about the sheep, Stevenhawk7! :smile:

It certainly is a tough road for all of us, trying to live out our faith in this world, loving all people while staying true to the faith.

My concern is that the cliché "don't judge me" has come to really mean "don't disagree with me", and there is a clear pressure, through the media and on a personal level, to equate love with agreement. It is coming to the point where there is no greater wrong than to disagree with someone, and we therefore as believers have this pressure to show our love by always agreeing and always being agreeable. This is an understandable pressure, as we are eager to show forth the love of Christ to a dark world.

However, love is so much more than agreeing, and the love of God will often actually offend, as we well know by the life of Christ and the reaction of many people to UR. Christ said "if the world hates you, know that it hated me first", showing that believers will suffer the same misunderstanding as their master.

When it comes to how we relate to those who have not yet seen Christ, each situation has deep repercussions. The fact that Jesus associated with sinners has been often manipulated into implying that He indulged in the same sin, approved of the same sin, and celebrated the same sin. How then could He be the spotless lamb? Why would I want to celebrate something Christ had to die for? If a person is in bondage to a sin, I will love them, but I will not celebrate that which they are enslaved to, any more than Moses celebrated the Egyptians who lashed his Hebrew brethren.

I would rather someone hate me now for disagreeing with them, than have them approach me in the ages to come when their eyes have been opened, and ask "Why did you rejoice over the bonds that imprisoned me? Why did you raise a glass to that which Jesus was crucified for?"

and that my friend (IMO) is a spectacular post!

...and very true in so many ways.. It would be nice (also) if people would realize that to disagree or not be in support of, does not equate to dislike (let alone hatred as is so often the accusation - on every issue!)

...but I came back to post, in all seriousness, how nice it is to be able to express an opinion which may differ with another's without being told you're going to 'hell'! :laughing7: oops, did I say that out loud? :faint: :cheerleader:

 :cloud9: That's very true Shev.....the only thing I would add is we still have to be instant in season and out or we may hurt the wheat, too.  It's a tough call, which is why I'd turn it over to the Lord.  :dontknow:

Quote from: marie glen on January 07, 2016, 06:27:08 AM

...but I came back to post, in all seriousness, how nice it is to be able to express an opinion which may differ with another's without being told you're going to 'hell'! :laughing7: oops, did I say that out loud? :faint: :cheerleader:

Marie's Guilty--Yep! Four letter word speaker!!! Stone her! OOPS! I meant to say forgive her. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Now folks I'm just kidding a bit so don't get upset-ok?  :dsunny: :dsunny:

  Great thoughts everyone ...   Shev  it is a serious business  , being about the Father business.. all joking aside ...   

  Showing great maturity    in many answers  and how  sharing the motives of our hearts   openly  , before God and one another

  I went back yesterday and read Roman 1 and 2  ,    Chapter 2  is  making us examine ourselves    as judges  ,  either justified  or  unjustified  ..

All   sin  birthed  is death   and it is certainly a LONG list  ''lust/desire  '' is that motive  of the heart    , We are all judged   by what we say and do   , in ignorance/darkness /night  and in  knowing  /light /day.

1 James 5 ...14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren....


I don't think anyone  can know that the fiery trials  of our faith are the  judgments in the earth , till they experience them and  you   LEARN   and KNOW   real fast
  not to   taste not  touch not and handle not ! [tree of knowledge of good and evil    that law that puts to death   sin in our flesh ]  THAT   HEAT IS  HOT and every emotion is pulled up and out of you  exposing  nakedness    , PAIN  and anger  , suffering ,weeping and  wailing and gnashing of teeth  sitting in  dark  loneliness  and  miserable   , just wanting to die and have it over with , our covering and garment is   Christ  , our  grace covering     ,  you can only wait on the Lord to help you rise up out of death , HE raises the dead to life again and restores our lives to give hope and meaning and purpose 

  But since the dead know nothing they do not understand  what is happening to them    , and I say this metaphorically speaking     that being dead in sin and trespass   is what the world is experiencing   because they do not know God nor love Him first  and that enemy is death working in them and  holding them prisoner    , till Christ come to set them free     ,       that can only be  overcome though JESUS CHRIST    in YOU    , the LIVING WORD made flesh    by faith in Him and learning to wait on the Lord to come ...     

I do believe we get to feel everything    and  He  is with us though it all     , the HOLY SPIRIT & fire of Gods consuming    is an excellent teacher   though them experiences and comforter when we learn righteousness in the earth  , it is  two edged  for sure     ...   one   side kills and the other side makes alive  in HIM

   The desires of our hearts are   always exposed ,    in our actions , well meaning as they may be  , if they go against the DESIRE OF GOD     there will be  correction ...  We can  certainly  expect   His WORD  to be true   and judge us all accordingly....... :HeartThrob:     

 :cloud9: Amen Rose.....good post..... :iagree:

Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2016, 02:47:55 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 07, 2016, 01:06:25 AM
Just go to the wedding of your friend :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Dear bro, he may indeed feel OK or even that somehow/for some reason it's the Lord's will if He gives him a specific purpose to go.  On the other hand, he might would be compromising and offend his conscience. 

Personally though, for an example (and I truly struggle with such things often);  if I went, I'm positive I would feel guilt, like I had been a bad witness, and would need to repent for what I would feel would be giving tacit approval by my acknowledgement of the ceremony. (good post Shev  :thumbsup:)     

That being the case, would you advise I just go anyway, or seriously, what further thoughts/suggestions do you have about something like this that might offend/go against my conscience?  Thanks :)

:thumbsup:

It's like saying "just eat the meat sacrificed to idols!" Or "just celebrate Christmas, already!"

My advice: just search your conscience and don't act against your faith.

Ho boy.....just a  :2c: thought. You know it was not to long ago when I was given to understand that I have a very large beam in my eye and well, I realized that I had spent a good part of my walk thinking I was looking past that beam and seeing what I assumed to be splinters in others, but in truth, all I saw was a beam with many splinters, all in my eye.  :2c: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 08, 2016, 03:07:05 AM
Ho boy.....just a  :2c: thought. You know it was not to long ago when I was given to understand that I have a very large beam in my eye and well, I realized that I had spent a good part of my walk thinking I was looking past that beam and seeing what I assumed to be splinters in others, but in truth, all I saw was a beam with many splinters, all in my eye.  :2c: :HeartThrob:

Yes yes yes...me too.

   Me as well .... :sigh:     ol ' beam eye

  Where did Aerex  go by the way ?

:) micah

and you said a mouthful.  nothing to disagree with there, especially that we should examine ourselves..motives, attitudes, intent, lack or presence of love, all those things.  That said -  :Chinscratch:  I don't have the perfect answer to this, but there's a balance/correct balancing of the scales somewhere.  I've probably wandered around and never quite found it in my own lifetime.  What I'm getting at though is, I believe we're absolutely supposed to know the difference between right and wrong, righteousness and sinfulness.  Blessiings and blasphemy.  We love, but speak and stand for truth.  We influence, but not out of anger and self-righteousness but rather love, kindness, gentleness.  And I'll set out there the following, which is loaded and will probably bring more discussion and hopefully not howling :).   Also then, to judge correctly, but not condemn.  Judging correctly IMO is the key.  Again, all the right attitudes, motive, intent - be a faithful witness, confess and acknowledge our own sin and look to the Lord for forgiveness and help with it,  be loving, wishing to redeem and reconcile - rather than punish, castigate, diminish and impugn.  Specific scriptures about exposing, correcting, drawing a line between light and darkness.   I DO believe that MOSTLY has to do within our OWN lives as each of us walk the walk individually.  However, Paul for one didn't stop short of saying how we live, what we say, how we admonish and even discipline others ("church"/body issues) has a place in the believer's life. 

All that said, I'll say again, I don't have the perfect answer to these things.  However, I don't think we're necessarily (unless it's an individual calling for a specific time etc.) supposed to just sit silent, go along with whatever happens, blend in, and "always" say "I have my own sins so I can't have anything to say about this".  On the contrary, maybe something like "I have my own sins, I can't condemn or criticize, but here is what I understand the scriptures to say and how I believe it's God's will in such matters".  Maybe.  That's more my approach at times, and that's if I have the nerve to say anything at all.  Again, each must take it before the Lord though, because I think it's a difficult thing and can sure be messed up - by either marching with "God hates (fill in the blank)...." signs, or hiding in a corner somewhere being too timid or whatever to take a stand.

Read something interesting last night.  Winston Churchill supposedly said it.  "You've got enemies?  Good.  That means you stood for something at some time in your life".  :)

When I've got this all figured out I'll let you know.  But be sure and DON'T hold your breath.   :Peace2:

Quote from: rosered on January 08, 2016, 03:32:19 AM


   Me as well .... :sigh:     ol ' beam eye

  Where did Aerex  go by the way ?

He might have gone into a witness protection program.   :icon_jokercolor:

I think he got some solid feedback here.

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 02:50:56 AM
My advice: just search your conscience and don't act against your faith.

:thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Well here's the rub. NONE of us can make a "right" decision, in truth. What may look good and the "right" thing to do, may not necessarily be what He wants us to do at that particular moment in time. If we ask and we don't get a solid answer from Him one way or another, then we go with the letter and our conscience. Can't go wrong that way, or at least not accountable if you do.  :footmouth:  :laughing7: My  :2c:

 :thumbsup: cardinal, very true

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 08, 2016, 06:32:43 AM
:thumbsup: cardinal, very true

You got that and understood it?
None of us can know we made the right decision, "in truth"? That should be troubling.

And how many times have you asked Him and got a "right" decision answer? I Know I have asked and well never got a solid answer one way or the other. So I did what ever I did and it was "the letter and our conscience" what does that mean? And I couldn't go wrong that way. :Chinscratch:

Well, in my opinion, and perhaps in agreement with what Cardinal is saying, the clear things God speaks about in scriptures will never be contradicted by him. Yet there are things that are not so clearly spelled out in scripture where we must use prayer, instinct, common sense, conscience and hear the voice of God within us. I am a believer that God wants us to walk on our own feet rather than have everything spelled out like with the Torah and oral law. That means being wrong sometimes, and bumping into walls. I'm not sure, but that's what I got from her post.

Aerex, whatever you decide to do, I hope that it will be what you think God wants you to do, rather than man.

John 12
42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That's one of the hardest things it being judged by man and whether you decide to go or not I hope it will be because of the fact that you want to please God and you believe it's what he want you to do. If you do what you truly believe God wants you to do, without self trickery because he sees the truth always, I feel you're on good ground.

  Yes I get  what you all are saying   !!!!!   and love hearing His VOICE in yours    .    in harmony of   the same  witness  :banana: :banana:  I DO LOVE YOU ALL  very much


  It is our own conscience that bears witness with the Holy Spirit   in actions    , giving us Jesus peace  ,but  when we struggle  against   ourselves and  more than one nature   is in control   ,

  we do become  unsettled , wavering   unrest   like the seas of madness ...  and scriptures says   


Tthere is NO REST for the wicked   ,  what is not of Faith is sin !! 

We   walk by faith not by sight ,,,  what we see and feel and understand  as humans  ,

but walk in the Spirit   by faith in God and learn to trust    this inner voice  , that bears witness   within you  and its peace  , and resting in Hope , in Him , so much more of His increase     to the fullness of Gods  loving   desire for you and all     ,   removing the lack   and struggle  in lifes throws ,,,


Isaiah 57 Healing for the Repentant   Changing our minds  /hearts direction ,   from the carnal  in nature to the   Mind of Christ  that is spiritual in nature .
Obedient  to Gods desires  is better than 10 thousand sacrifices    for sin  , as to not abusing the grace of God and  giving Jesus  His glory  in dying for you !


...20But the wicked are like the tossing sea, For it cannot be quiet,

And its waters toss up refuse and mud.

21"There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."   

Faith is  a Living substance  , faith without that  substance  working in you is dead ...   sin is death and to be carnally minded is death , error/ missing out in all those Spiritual blessings here and now in  that abundant life of JOY IN THE LORD ....    :HeartThrob:

Growing pains , hurt in the moment , but the peace that comes after is a  beautiful thing and comforting to KNOW   that GOD is with you always to the end ,, :HeartThrob:   there is no other peace on earth like it ...  nothing can compare to   experiencing  the Glory of God   in your  heart    this world cannot contain it !!,,,

   The   same glory that was  before the world was ,as faith is the works that Glorify   GOD   THOUGH THE SON [ALL THINGS ]...  John 17 Prayer for the Son and those sons birthed though  JESUS CHRIST ....


...4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Proverbs 8:23
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:1
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

1 Peter 1:21
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.


:HeartThrob:  Oh the revelations/unveiling   of Jesus Christ and His testimony /witness   !!! wow   :banana:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 08, 2016, 07:12:45 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 08, 2016, 06:32:43 AM
:thumbsup: cardinal, very true

You got that and understood it?
None of us can know we made the right decision, "in truth"? That should be troubling.

And how many times have you asked Him and got a "right" decision answer? I Know I have asked and well never got a solid answer one way or the other. So I did what ever I did and it was "the letter and our conscience" what does that mean? And I couldn't go wrong that way. :Chinscratch:

I think there are a lot more grey areas in Christianity than people like to believe.

I think there are times that we don't truly know the right course of action but God knows. The bible, contrary to what some think, isn't a rule book. It's a love story from God to mankind, an unfolding story of humanity. The bible does teach us how to live the best life possible, but it is often cloaked in parables and metaphor, and sometimes it is seemingly contradictory unless the context and the Holy Spirit guide our understanding.

For example, ok, the bible is clear homosexuality is sin, we all agree. But our law is to love God and love one another. How do we show love? It is different based on the circumstance. I could think I shouldn't go to this wedding, for example, because I would be seen as condoning homosexuality, or I could think I should go to show love and keep the door open in the relationship so that I can continue to share/show God's love with this person. Which scenario would bring about the better end result? We honestly don't know, only God knows. We can guess, but life is often more unpredictable than we think.

I have asked for guidance from God and some people claim to hear an answer, but like you, I never have. But I do think I get answers somehow anyway. I only usually can tell retrospectively.

I think that what Cardinal means is if we are following our conscience, and we are truly walking with God, we can't be condemned for doing so, even if somehow our actions didn't bring about the end result we thought they would.

An example of thinking we are doing right but aren't:
A friend was a new convert and took ideas from the bible to live separately and not associate with nonbelievers, and cut ties with family and friends. This person for a period of time didn't leave the door open to share God's love and instead was like the person who buried the talents in the parable. Also, everyone thought this person was hateful and had joined a cult. If we as Christians are the face of Jesus on earth to nonbelievers we need to be careful how we portray ourselves/Him.

Yes sometimes love doesn't look like love, but that can't be an excuse to do things that actually aren't truly loving and just say, well that's love, sorry you don't perceive it that way. It's the difference between a loving parent who gives their kid a fair consequence but does so truly with love in their heart and the desire to show the child the right way, versus a parent that dishes out unfair punishments out of anger or self-righteousness, but then says they are doing it out of love.

Would the witness of your friendship benefit more by going to the wedding or by refusing to go?

If Jesus was invited to the wedding would He attend or refuse?

Remember "Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,"

Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
  rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
  beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 08, 2016, 10:25:43 PM
Would the witness of your friendship benefit more by going to the wedding or by refusing to go?

If Jesus was invited to the wedding would He attend or refuse?

Remember "Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,"

Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
  rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
  beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

I tend to agree with you but it's not my decision to make :)

I don't think it's a good idea to convince people to act outside of their consciences just because you think it's ok for you. That which is without faith is a sin. That's the same reason I don't go around convincing people to celebrate Christmas to be good witnesses for Christ if they feel they shouldn't. Micah, I mean this with all due respect, but I think you are being inconsistent.

I still think all things should be seen through the lens of Jesus Christ first, not our own emotions. In all the debates about rules vs love, I can't help hearing His words to the churches of Revelation:

To Ephesus:
Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.  5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

To Pergamos:
But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.  15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[a]  16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

To Thyatira:
Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[c] that woman[d] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[e] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.  21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[f]  22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[g] deeds.  23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

To Sardis:
"I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.  2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a]  3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

To Laodicea:
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.  16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth.  17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—  18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

This sure sounds like overcoming is a serious process, and that the Lord has certain expectations of His church. I know that there are much symbolism in revelation, and also that it is He that overcomes within us, but these problems in Revelation are still spiritual realities within the church. Emotions are great servants but lousy masters, and if we make our emotions the basis for our spiritual walk, we will suffer shipwreck.

If the Lord's comments above came from one of His followers, many would say they had a "weak conscience", and was terribly judgmental, being so concerned with this and that rather than just loving. Yet I fear we may misunderstand the love of God if we think it means Him allowing His children to grow up without discipline, or that Christ fulfilling the law means we act according to our heart's desire.

There is liberty in the Lord, yet paradoxically, also constraint. We are set free from sin, but within that freedom we learn to be bound more and more to the will of the Father. So our maturity is not a story of increased independence and self sufficiency as in the natural realm, but a closer and closer apprehension of His will. After all, the only perfectly mature Son to date said the following:

"When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things."

We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I'd like to pose a question to the participants of this conversation.

Why didn't Paul think it was good for a brother to eat meat sacrificed to idols with a brother who thinks it's wrong?

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 10:46:16 PM
I don't think it's a good idea to convince people to act outside of their consciences just because you think it's ok for you. That which is without faith is a sin. That's the same reason I don't go around convincing people to celebrate Christmas to be good witnesses for Christ if they feel they shouldn't. Micah, I mean this with all due respect, but I think you are being inconsistent.

I was certainly not my thought to "convince" any one to do or not to do. I believe my first post was he is your friend go to the wedding, it was not meant to convince. He is who he is.
My understanding of late(that's just me)that a good many of us, no matter how much we believe we are getting somewhere are still moored to the denominations and sects once involved in.
As for me, I really don't know what to do about these times. Homosexuality IS HERE,(people who may have been our closest friends are not who we or they thought they were) people trying to infiltrate and kill us(look just like any other American) IS HERE, technology(replacing books and old fashioned education) IS HERE. I am going to say I really, I mean really don't know how to advise someone anymore. :sigh: :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:
So I'm done :Peace2:

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 11:05:50 PM
I'd like to pose a question to the participants of this conversation.

Why didn't Paul think it was good for a brother to eat meat sacrificed to idols with a brother who thinks it's wrong?

     Because he is weak in faith , just read that whole chapter       this morning ...

     Putting  a stumbling block  in your brothers way who has a  weak conscience   

Another is   how    you use your  law  of  Liberty ...
   
But as Micah said , Aerex will do as he does ...   

   and everyone  is in different places in the Lord       

  We  are in the  days when knowledge will be increased  Dan 12     

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 10:58:29 PM
We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 09, 2016, 12:02:51 AM
I am going to say I really, I mean really don't know how to advise someone anymore. :sigh: :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:
So I'm done :Peace2:

:nod:  Brother micah, maybe we're old dogs and these are new tricks. 

:wink3:

Kidding of course.  I believe we both know the truth stays the same, but it does get harder to sort through it all and stand for it.  The times they are a'changing... "but My Word remains the same".     :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on January 09, 2016, 01:00:31 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 09, 2016, 12:02:51 AM
I am going to say I really, I mean really don't know how to advise someone anymore. :sigh: :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob:
So I'm done :Peace2:

:nod:  Brother micah, maybe we're old dogs and these are new tricks. 

:wink3:

Kidding of course.  I believe we both know the truth stays the same, but it does get harder to sort through it all and stand for it.  The times they are a'changing... "but My Word remains the same".     :HeartThrob:

Amen!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 09, 2016, 12:41:26 AM

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 10:58:29 PM
We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

  You are so right ,
  He did!! 

   30th High school reunion ,   
  There was a table with    those that still drink     , AS i had years ago , but we sat and  had the best time   ever    old friends ,,,

  Those whom have never touched the stuff  sat at their table     ....

  It was easier  for me to choose  because LOVE never changes  no matter what the  circumstance is ...

  Its not like he is choosing homosexuality  for himself ...   He is choosing to be amongst friends ,..

I just do not understand the  quandary ?    :sigh:

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 09, 2016, 12:41:26 AM

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 10:58:29 PM
We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Yeah  :thumbsup: that's why I say I don't know if Jesus would attend. Aerex's friend knows, but what about everyone else? Weddings are there for people to celebrate the union. If God says it's a sin, what's to celebrate? We're together to toast the groom and groom when God says such a thing is unnatural (Romans 1)? We don't have to be perfect in our walk to be uncomfortable with that.

The "why" does matter and that's why I say that my answer is that Aerex shouldn't do anything unless he is fully convinced in his.mind.

Whether I think it's ok or not isn't the point. It's whether Aerex is acting in faith and not bending to pressure to please man.

Quote from: Seth on January 09, 2016, 01:42:19 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 09, 2016, 12:41:26 AM

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 10:58:29 PM
We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Yeah  :thumbsup: that's why I say I don't know if Jesus would attend. Aerex's friend knows, but what about everyone else? Weddings are there for people to celebrate the union. If God says it's a sin, what's to celebrate? We're together to toast the groom and groom when God says such a thing is unnatural (Romans 1)? We don't have to be perfect in our walk to be uncomfortable with that.

The "why" does matter and that's why I say that my answer is that Aerex shouldn't do anything unless he is fully convinced in his.mind.

Whether I think it's ok or not isn't the point. It's whether Aerex is acting in faith and not bending to pressure to please man.

:thumbsup:

micah's post and the replies got me thinking.  It's the old "WWJD" (what would Jesus do) deal.  I of course can only speculate, perhaps with leading of the Holy Spirit.  But I personally believe HE would go - for a purpose.  I believe He would kindly admonish the people present what marriage really means, how it's to be holy in nature, and what it represents, and that it's not legitimate within same-sex.  I think He would offer them forgiveness, and then instruct them to believe on Him and to live for Him from that moment on, following Him rather than doing what's right in their (our) own eyes.   :2c:

Quote from: jabcat on January 09, 2016, 01:55:28 AM

Quote from: Seth on January 09, 2016, 01:42:19 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on January 09, 2016, 12:41:26 AM

Quote from: Seth on January 08, 2016, 10:58:29 PM
We don't know if Jesus would have attended, but I don't think he would do so to agree with it, or to put on airs of agreement with the union. Jesus was honest.

I thought Aerex already stated this friend knew he didn't agree with his homosexuality.

Also, from the people posting that they'd think it's ok to attend, I don't know if they ever said they'd do so while putting on airs. If they are good friends, they can be honest with eachother, hopefully, and it sounds like Aerex is already honest with him.

Yeah  :thumbsup: that's why I say I don't know if Jesus would attend. Aerex's friend knows, but what about everyone else? Weddings are there for people to celebrate the union. If God says it's a sin, what's to celebrate? We're together to toast the groom and groom when God says such a thing is unnatural (Romans 1)? We don't have to be perfect in our walk to be uncomfortable with that.

The "why" does matter and that's why I say that my answer is that Aerex shouldn't do anything unless he is fully convinced in his.mind.

Whether I think it's ok or not isn't the point. It's whether Aerex is acting in faith and not bending to pressure to please man.

:thumbsup:

micah's post and the replies got me thinking.  It's the old "WWJD" (what would Jesus do) deal.  I of course can only speculate, perhaps with leading of the Holy Spirit.  But I personally believe HE would go - for a purpose.  I believe He would kindly admonish the people present what marriage really means, how it's to be holy in nature, and what it represents, and that it's not legitimate within same-sex.  I think He would offer them forgiveness, and then instruct them to believe on Him and to live for Him from that moment on, following Him rather than doing what's right in their (our) own eyes.   :2c:

Thank you Jab. I don't really know anything today, except I believe Jesus would go, and His purpose, well that just leaves me wondering. Happy New Year :dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat on January 09, 2016, 01:00:31 AM

...the truth stays the same, but it does get harder to sort through it all and stand for it.  The times they are a'changing...

..so true!

Quote

"but My Word remains the same".     :HeartThrob:

  :dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat

micah's post and the replies got me thinking.  It's the old "WWJD" (what would Jesus do) deal.  I of course can only speculate, perhaps with leading of the Holy Spirit.  But I personally believe HE would go - for a purpose.  I believe He would kindly admonish the people present what marriage really means, how it's to be holy in nature, and what it represents, and that it's not legitimate within same-sex.  I think He would offer them forgiveness, and then instruct them to believe on Him and to live for Him from that moment on, following Him rather than doing what's right in their (our) own eyes.   :2c:

:dsunny: :dsunny:

 :cloud9: I still say it's between the individual and the Lord. There is no cut and dried answer, only
because He might have a reason for sending someone to such an event.

However, of my own personal decision, I wouldn't go unless He sent me, for some reason of His. And I know some homosexuals, ministered to some, know them quite well.

But because I know firsthand the spiritual bondage that goes with it is a real entity, going to "celebrate" their union would be out of the question entirely. And so because of this, according to MY conscience, it would be like sitting on the sidelines selling popcorn to onlookers
right before Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed. My  :2c: Blessings....

Amen, according to His leading.. As celebrating the union it seems all are in agreement that would not be a good motivation.. :faint:

I just wanted to add one more thought to this thread. In Romans Ch.1 we become focused on verses 24-27 but if you stand back and read it again the list of offences isn't completed until Romans Ch.2 verse 3.  It basically covers everyone so if we single out the gays or homosexuals we are judging since our flesh is covered somewhere in that list of offensive actions.

It reminds me a bit like how things are viewed in my past Catholic traditions. They had sins classed as venial and mortal but it's funny because that's kind of like how they started that rating of movies. The older you are the more trash you can view and still feel righteous and sanctified. Kind of crazy but religious folks do the same with the works of the flesh. We kind of rank them based on their offense to our standards but they all fall short of the Glory of God. He looks on the heart and we look at the flesh. It's his eyes we need! In the natural realm if you go outside on a sunny day and stare at the sun you will go blind. I believe if we stare at the SON long enough we too will Go Blind to the Law of Sin and Death even in others but will regain Our Sight In Him and see All Justified By The Blood. That's my prayer so it must be polite to stare!
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

well..they say justice is blind. she is pictured holding a scale in her hand with a blindfold on. They say love is blind,too.........

    thus it blots out all your sins..does not hold them against you and keeps no record of the injury.

   but the harlot eats..wipes her mouth..and says..'I have not sinned"

  if homosexuality was listed as a sin..confessed to...He is faithful to forgive and not hold it against us...but it is this............

      'it is NOT sin" that is the problem..for we call God a liar. All murder,adultery and fornication[of which homo-sexuality is included]

  is sin.

   I am content with 'all men bound up in disobedience"/corrupt image; on one side of the scales...with all men receive the free gift

promised seed/redeemed and bear the incorrupt image on the other side through Christ.  that's perfect justice/balance.


  now 'cheating' scales go like this..my adultery/fornication is less than your homosexuality/fornication as far as the 'weightiness' goes

   ...or like this...'my homosexuality is not sin/it is acceptable to God"

  staring at the son and going blind..as justice with the pair of scales in her hand..finds all men justified in Christ.........

  BUT HOW WILL YOU SEE THE FORM AND LIKENESS OF GOD?And how will you see Him eye to eye/face to face and be just like

Him..if we disagree with Him about what is sin/what is acceptable and what is not. Is God a homosexual/adulterer/fornicator

liar/theif?   It is about the next step of sanctification..Father I have sanctified myself..that they may be sanctified.


   God justifies the wicked..by the blood of His son..but He also sanctifies the Holy...and we all must be sanctified to be

delivered from the wicked[image].and see eye to eye with God

Whether by confession and washing, or by correction and purging, we all will be both reconciled and santified.

Confession is the easier way.

When I kept silent,
    my bones wasted away
    through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night
    your hand was heavy on me;
my strength was sapped
    as in the heat of summer.
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you
    and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, "I will confess
    my transgressions to the Lord."
And you forgave
    the guilt of my sin.

agreed..the purging/ correction/chastising in the LoF will be a rather unpleasant experience I'd wager,for ALL unrepentant sinners not just unrepentant practicing homosexuals in a loving committed stable long term relationship such as marriage, if indeed that is a sin in the eyes of God ,I'm still not 100% convinced that it is but it probably is.

Quote from: sheila on January 23, 2016, 11:54:11 PM
well..they say justice is blind. she is pictured holding a scale in her hand with a blindfold on. They say love is blind,too.........

    thus it blots out all your sins..does not hold them against you and keeps no record of the injury.

   but the harlot eats..wipes her mouth..and says..'I have not sinned"

  if homosexuality was listed as a sin..confessed to...He is faithful to forgive and not hold it against us...but it is this............

      'it is NOT sin" that is the problem..for we call God a liar. All murder,adultery and fornication[of which homo-sexuality is included]

  is sin.

   I am content with 'all men bound up in disobedience"/corrupt image; on one side of the scales...with all men receive the free gift

promised seed/redeemed and bear the incorrupt image on the other side through Christ.  that's perfect justice/balance.


  now 'cheating' scales go like this..my adultery/fornication is less than your homosexuality/fornication as far as the 'weightiness' goes

   ...or like this...'my homosexuality is not sin/it is acceptable to God"

  staring at the son and going blind..as justice with the pair of scales in her hand..finds all men justified in Christ.........

  BUT HOW WILL YOU SEE THE FORM AND LIKENESS OF GOD?And how will you see Him eye to eye/face to face and be just like

Him..if we disagree with Him about what is sin/what is acceptable and what is not. Is God a homosexual/adulterer/fornicator

liar/theif?   It is about the next step of sanctification..Father I have sanctified myself..that they may be sanctified.


   God justifies the wicked..by the blood of His son..but He also sanctifies the Holy...and we all must be sanctified to be

delivered from the wicked[image].and see eye to eye with God

yes, but what of the homosexual who is genetically programmed (among other things) to be homosexual...is it his/ her fault they are gay ?..should he/ she be doomed to spend a life of loneliness without benefit of marriage ?..what does Love say about that ?...what is the spirit of Love ?..what did Jesus say about love vs the law ?..hmmm, weighty questions indeed...I do not have the answers...do you ?...does anybody ?..maybe only God knows, in the end.

what? don't you know we all inherited sin and corruption..through one man.all of us are genetically altered and corrupt..men and woman are genetically programmed to mate,too.

does that mean we fornicate..committ adultery. It's no different. This then is TRUE....God bound up all men in disobedience......

and the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by the will of He who subjected it..in order that the whole creation

be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

   what of men women that can not find a marriage partner? same thing.what of the divorced/widowed? same thing.


   ours is a pitiable condition,no doubt,all of us. Is it fair to be born in Africa during a famine and starve to death? is it fair

to undergo female circumcision where any hope of a natural marriage relationship being mutually satisfying is impossible?

   worship in SPIRIT AND TRUTH

  this then is the love of God..that He gave His only begotton son for us all...that He extends mercy unto us all...and that He will

deliver us all from the wicked one/corrupt image we all bear......just don't say our corrupt image is the image/likeness of God.


     it is the job of the Holy spirit to convict of sin.the job of the priest to make known to the people the difference between the profane

and holy. God help us all!

 

The sin the Holy Ghost will convict of John 16 vs 8-9

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Everything else the law will condemn. :eek: That is why he is the potter so as we believe and behold him he changes us otherwise we still can boast in our own efforts at sanctification. It sounds like Grace is giving a license but in reality Grace is the only true deliverance. As we behold him we shall be like him. If we don't behold him we will behold sin and judge his apparent lack of ability to change the behaviour of others. I'm thinking that might be the greater sin or missing of the mark. That doesn't mean we condone or approve of their flesh's actions but if God doesn't change them who are we to judge them.

Speaking of a priest to tell teach the difference between the holy and profane. If we share Christ and his love that is the holy if we turn folks into lawyers that I think is profane.

I never thought like that until recently but it's really something to consider. :Chinscratch:

I'm not saying my thinking on this subject 100% perfect but my heart wants to let me love them and let God change them if he desires to do that on his time schedule.

I LIKE YOUR THINKING!!

for He shall appear unto us again...seperate from sin.

Quote from: sheila on January 24, 2016, 05:31:00 AM
I LIKE YOUR THINKING!!

Thank You-Sheila :HeartThrob:

Quote from: He1MyHeart on January 24, 2016, 04:58:56 AM

The sin the Holy Ghost will convict of John 16 vs 8-9

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Everything else the law will condemn. :eek: That is why he is the potter so as we believe and behold him he changes us otherwise we still can boast in our own efforts at sanctification. It sounds like Grace is giving a license but in reality Grace is the only true deliverance. As we behold him we shall be like him. If we don't behold him we will behold sin and judge his apparent lack of ability to change the behaviour of others. I'm thinking that might be the greater sin or missing of the mark. That doesn't mean we condone or approve of their flesh's actions but if God doesn't change them who are we to judge them.

Speaking of a priest to tell teach the difference between the holy and profane. If we share Christ and his love that is the holy if we turn folks into lawyers that I think is profane.

I never thought like that until recently but it's really something to consider. :Chinscratch:

I'm not saying my thinking on this subject 100% perfect but my heart wants to let me love them and let God change them if he desires to do that on his time schedule.

I like your thinking too! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Especially "my heart wants to let me love them and let God change them if he desires to do that on his time schedule."

and "If we share Christ and his love that is the holy if we turn folks into lawyers that I think is profane." and "If we don't behold him we will behold sin and judge his apparent lack of ability to change the behaviour of others." -- to not trust His Grace and Power!

And I read today "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" Romans 2:4 :dsunny: