Marriage and Homosexuality

[Aerex]

I have a huge dilemma. On of my best friends is getting married and he is a homosexual. He is asking me to come to his wedding and he knows that I am against his homosexuality. I have known him for over 10 years and I am not willing to forfeit my friendship over this. At the same time I don't want to compromise my faith. I am going to pray and meditate on this. The wedding is in October so I have time to get think about it.

[jabcat]

It is a dilemma of sorts, but really there's a truth to be found.  Your conscience will "talk" to you.  Also, there are multiple scriptures that talk about not condoning sin, not participating in it, and actually separating ourselves from it.  It sounds like your heart's in the right place and you intend to follow the scriptures as best you can.  So there are also the scriptures that talk about loving a person.  So a thought might be;  let him know you value him, love him, will continue to treat him kindly etc.  But that your conscience and what you believe won't allow you to acknowledge/condone/participate (whatever term best fits - Paul used "approve") and you feel you'd be doing so by attending the ceremony.  All I can say is that's how I personally see it, everyone has their own conscience (hopefully saturated with the Word of God) and you may get other views.  But that's mine, hope it's helpful.

[sheila]

Pray to Father about it,Aerex..He is a wonderful counselor..may He direct you in what is appropriate in this issue with your friend.

[watchman1706]

Honour the friendship and don't do the sin....That's all you can do...Remember Mercy rejoices over judgement. That's my 2 cents worth.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[rosered]

Honour the friendship and don't do the sin....That's all you can do...Remember Mercy rejoices over judgement. That's my 2 cents worth.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

  Good to see you posting again  Watchman !!  Good advice !!!   :thumbsup:

I agree   with you ...

I just  understood something  recently  that I do believe the Holy Spirit taught me  and learning to listen ...

I do not know why it took so long for   me to understand this ....  but it did  :mshrug:

   I think it was because I wanted to be loving   like Jesus , but was  not able to be on my own , it did take   God to change me and had to wait on the Lord  to do it 

and this is in His power  to do   and time ,  not anything  else will   change us  , you just have to suffer though it .

    LOVING GOD FIRST and than everyone else  ,   and being carnal it is  impossible to do  , yet you don't think your carnal , but spiritual  and your not .

  Until   your own man of sin is exposed  , you are a judge and a unjust one at that ..  you judge  what is good and what is evil continually  , but this is still eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil      and the evil is present      ... 
Just as Paul says  , you go to do good and evil is present         ,  not realizing the evil is in you !!!
Because evil does not love    righteously , but is a respecter of persons , it does love its own only ...   and thinks very highly of its opinion .

  You being evil  know how to give good gifts to your children  , How much more will   the Father give good gifts [ Holy Spirit ] to those whom ask Him ...

  We just got to keep on asking  , knocking and seeking   more of HIM     and less   and less of  our  own  , minds ideas and  judgments

Because you are judging the LAW ...   and that will put you in a world of hurt            ...

  fiery trial   after fiery trial  after fiery trial       and never getting it right , your man of sin is burning with anger   and  burning that pride   right out of you !!     Very humbling  indeed
  There is one LAWGIVER AND JUDGE  who is able to save and destroy     and   who are we to judge our brother/ neighbour  ?    James 4 ;12

We bring  judgment on our own heads    when  we do    this ...

    All flesh is judged already   as condemned/ worthless and  unprofitable        , sin in our flesh is doomed   from the beginning  of eating from that TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL ..

  We are so busy judging  what is good and what is evil   , we forget to LIVE !!!!!    We forget  to LOVE   ,    we forget  to forgive and  show mercy !!!!

so as we judge  we are BEING JUDGED   BY THE VERY WORD OF GOD / LAW   judges us all now  !  NOW ....

We are always kicking against the goads /pricks     a Greek proverb, but it was also familiar to the Jews and anyone who made a living in agriculture.

An ox goad was a stick with a pointed piece of iron on its tip used to prod the oxen when plowing.

The farmer would prick the animal to steer it in the right direction.

Sometimes the animal would rebel by kicking out at the prick, and this would result in the prick being driven even further into its flesh.

In essence, the more an ox rebelled, the more it suffered. Thus, Jesus' words to Saul on the road to Damascus: "It is hard for you to kick against the pricks."

I am not going to judge  homosexuality  any longer but let God judge them and love them anyways !!! 

I now  know  , and cannot   deny    it any  more  ,   the TRUTH  , and   the world will hate you   for this  , because it hated God first   

   instead of LOVING GOD FIRST  ,as commanded   to do ,  IT HATED GOD   and will hate you also    because it is evil   and loves its own  only .

But our hope is this    greater is HE that is in you  than what is in the world !!!    overcoming evil with good       , that Good  is GOD  and  God is LOVE  and GOD IS SPIRIT  & TRUTH   , and this is the only way to be set free  from the world   and all that is in it   

   If you want mercy show mercy    , you can only be content and satisfied by what God  gives  of Himself     to you     , You want to see God now  ? ,  This is possible with God       , keeping our hearts  pure and Holy and unspotted from the world     , that is not to judge , but LIVE  IN THE SPIRIT & TRUTH  , The tree of Life  is explained in the Revelation of Jesus Christ   to the Full ..   

  Matt 5
...6"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God....

  :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:     :HeartThrob: 

[Aerex]

I am just concerned that my friend will think less of me or worse loose my friendship because I don't want to be at his wedding. A persons wedding is very important and being his oldest and closest friend would look like a sign of betrayal. He has done so much for me over the years and I wouldn't be when I am without him. I don't want to lose him over this. He knows that  I don't approve it. I just don't understand why God has put me in this position. Does he want me to loose all of my friends just for him, then I will be alone.

[marie glen]

I loved your post Rosered.. (tho I loved everyone's posts!) And so interesting about the goad! I never knew that (or if I did, I forgot). And when I was reading it i thought, the farmer could, during times of ox docility (and yield, yielding) merely use the non sharp side of the goad to guide.. (I'm always looking for the easy way out?) I loved what you said about our human nature.. so true! ..Jesus when viewing the crowd had empathy that they were so buffeted about..

----
I have a soft spot in my heart for gay men (it's easier for me, being female, than with gay women)
I agree with all.. listening for the voice of the Lord, the Shepherd is the way to go.. the number one go to..

And how we have to listen to our own conscience, 2nd, I guess(?)

When I go home to visit to new england my brother throws a barbecue and party.. we play softball, horseshoes.. good talk, good music.. Oops, I'm straying! (I try to go once a year.) At the get together, there is usually at least three gay couples. Two female, one male. No one has asked me what I think, they may know I am christian and trying to portray love/tolerance. But if someone should ask me I would tell them how much I love them, and then that no i don't think it's natural ...but we are all sinner's.. and how much I love them..

If I wanted to do it any different I don't think I could. And I do love them lots.. If there was openness, or even if I just had to slip it in, I'd also let them know how very much Jesus loves them.. with a smile and,or a hug.. (again the easy way.. His yoke is easy and burden is light..?:)

There's two things I think I want to start saying any time they're at all relevant, in conversation with others and at social events, "God is love" and "hell is a pre-christian myth" - I know I need one more (very. brief.) "about u.r." -

Universal Reconciliation (the 3 r's, repentance, redemption, reconciliation) i think, gives freedom to love.. since all are 'destined' to be forgiven and reconciled.. since all sin will be forgiven (and every speck of sin/"missing the mark" abhorred) ..I just think it's easier to love our fellow person saved and not yet saved..
:Peace2: I didn't mean to ramble on so..

[marie glen]

I am just concerned that my friend will think less of me or worse loose my friendship because I don't want to be at his wedding. A persons wedding is very important and being his oldest and closest friend would look like a sign of betrayal. He has done so much for me over the years and I wouldn't be when I am without him. I don't want to lose him over this. He knows that  I don't approve it. I just don't understand why God has put me in this position. Does he want me to loose all of my friends just for him, then I will be alone.

..don't forget, Aerex, that the untrue voice will also be in the mix.. (when it comes to listening) "his yoke is easy, his burden is light.. ..truth sets free.."

[Aerex]

My conscious is telling me is it really worth losing your friend, your brother over one sin? I know God is testing me to see if I love God more than my friends and I don't think I do. What ever decision I make I am going to feel guilty :(

[sheila]

have you considered..giving God's things to God and Caesar's to Caesar?. Send a gift..money/Caesar's image....since our government

  legalized this..........sign accompanying card with love[do not be oweing anyone anything except to love one another.]

     

[rosered]

  Love everyones posts!!   
  Thanks Marie I agree  about the Farmer  &ox      and     with you on the  homosexual   thing  ,  we have  a family member   whom is  a son of  my hubbys  cousin and his wife , I do love  Gabe for Gabe  , I do not see  him as just that , but connect to his  person  and    being our selves , no pretense   or faking friendship , I do love this young man and want what is best for him ....

  All flesh is corrupt  and  when we judge the flesh ours is judged also  ....by faith I consider    mine dead already  because of sin  , and his too  , but love his spirit
he is loving  and kind   and funny ..  and always makes me laugh .
  John 8 is powerful  in WORD and deed     Jesus Christ speaks of this .

14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going;

but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.


15"You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.


16"But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me....

    WORD spoken judges us  all ,      Jesus come to save the world  !  lest we forget ....
I do believe  whole heartedly      LOVE     stronger than    sin and    sin is deaths sting  .... and it is everyone's destiny   to be made ALIVE IN CHRIST

  Every knee will bow and tongue confess the Lord Jesus Christ  ,   for He ALONE  is the Lord of the dead and the living .....   :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

Mark 12;17  regarding the  tempting of Jesus.....guilt and accusation is the object of the temptor......to accuse you before God night and

day.  It is a trap and snare...your sharing you will feel guilty regardless of your choice....the betrayl of God or the betrayl of your friend.

   I desire you be free of a guilty conscience..unto God and all men.


   I ask...'if one of your married buddies..wanted you to get involved and facilitate/support him in having an adulterous affair...

  would you do it? or would you say..".hey bro..don't involve me in this..'I want no part of it"  your my bro..but I 'm not going along with it.keep me out of it.

   My grand-daughter lives with her boyfriend...I love them both.  but when under my roof..they do not sleep in the same bed.For

my conscience sake before God.They do not see this as a betrayl of my love for them.


  talk to your friend about it..ascertain if he would feel like you betrayed him if you didn't attend..you might be surprised by what he

says to you..and how he would not want you feeling guilty about it.Talk to God about it,too. He may tell you..even if your own heart

condemn you,He is greater then your own heart.

  May He guide you in the way of peace..with God and men.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Follow your peace; it will lead you. Which idea (to go or not to go) gives you HIS peace? That will be your answer.

I was faced with a similar situation once, in that my friend's daughter was warned of God through a dream I had, not to marry the young man she took up with. I saw him in the dream and described him perfectly though I had never seen him in the natural. I was invited to the wedding, as she didn't listen, and I was torn because her mother was my best friend and I watched the girl grow up.

Finally, the Lord broke through my confusion and asked me when the prophets of Israel in the OT gave a word of warning to the people from God, did the prophets then go and join them in their sinning against the Lord? I said no, and I didn't go.

The marriage was a disaster from the beginning, he was abusive to their only child and to her, and he ended up committing suicide. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Good thoughts in this thread.  A few that my view particularly alligns with

Finally, the Lord broke through my confusion and asked me when the prophets of Israel in the OT gave a word of warning to the people from God, did the prophets then go and join them in their sinning against the Lord? I said no, and I didn't go.

   I ask...'if one of your married buddies..wanted you to get involved and facilitate/support him in having an adulterous affair...

  would you do it? or would you say..".hey bro..don't involve me in this..'I want no part of it"  your my bro..but I 'm not going along with it.keep me out of it.

   My grand-daughter lives with her boyfriend...I love them both.  but when under my roof..they do not sleep in the same bed.For

my conscience sake before God.They do not see this as a betrayl of my love for them.


  talk to your friend about it..ascertain if he would feel like you betrayed him if you didn't attend..you might be surprised by what he

says to you..
  May He guide you in the way of peace..with God and men.

have you considered..giving God's things to God and Caesar's to Caesar?. Send a gift..money/Caesar's image....since our government

  legalized this..........sign accompanying card with love[do not be oweing anyone anything except to love one another.]

     

:thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

I don't know the answer, hopefully God will show it to you. Some thoughts though...

If we are to not associate with any sinfulness, then are you prepared to live a life as a hermit? Oh wait, even then you are not 100% free from sin.

I think I have a personal bias against transgender people. I have a goal to love and respect all people and it is hard to do.

Anyway, I was home recently and a transgender person came to my door and I felt revulsed, suspicious and scared. Not the feelings you'd have for someone you love and respect (while viewing their behavior as unnatural or sinful I still want to love them).

I tried to just not answer the door but the person saw me in the window. I cracked the door and the person was looking for the pastor of a church I live near.

I said if he wasn't at the church I didn't know where he was and shut the door.

I almost immediate felt regret and went to see if the person was still there but he was gone.

I regretted it because he was looking for a pastor and I could have asked why. I could have shared my faith and universal reconciliation with him!

Instead fear made me shun and drive him away.

I felt like God sent this person to me to show me my bias.

I also struggle with the line people draw with certain sin and not other. Most of my family drinks heavily, should I not attend their weddings? My family sometimes gambles. They lie on occasion. My brother in law and many cousins live with their significant other (not married). Many of my friends are atheists. My good friend has several gay friends that are at her son's birthday. My friends and family gossip.

I guess I am saying sin is all around us in this fallen world, how can we avoid it?

Not to mention all the sin I did prior to God working on me!

Now I try to be an example not a judge.

I do think homosexuality is missing the mark and carnal and not how God intended. But I think all sin is sin, and only God can convict people and change their hearts. Until then they are self-destructing (given over to their desires, turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh).

[guest5685]

Years ago I would have not gone to that friends wedding. I was a new  Born Again Christian and had gone to a church that preached about "The Sins of The Saints". They were against just about everything and being new I bought the whole package! I used to drink a beer or two a few times a year but never drank much as I preferred tea.

Then I went to my sisters wedding and was offered a beer by some relatives and declined to take one because it was "SIN" or so I had been led to believe. Let's just say my self-righteous attitude stunk and almost all my relatives jeered etc. and most of the relationships were destroyed for many many years. God showed me that my thoughts in regards to that beer were just religious and my actions were taken as judgments against them. That ended any chance of me sharing Christ with them and probably did more harm than good.

Speaking of a Homosexual lifestyle--well that is not my preference or persuasion. Myself I would go just because the person is a friend and I wouldn't want them to think I was condemning them for their choice. In fact I've come to believe that the flesh is so fallen some folks are just born that way and to them what we find distasteful seems normal to them. To those folks what we find normal is abnormal to them. I think it might be the wires in their brain are somehow screwed up at birth. I'm sure some it's just a choice but many others it's doing what seems right to them. God doesn't judge after the flesh but after the heart. In fact Jesus said He and the Father were one and that The Father judges No Man and Jesus said he didn't judge. So if me not going would be construed by my friend as judging him unworthy of my presence and I represent Christ might he also see that as rejection by Christ.

Now lets pretend today is the Old Biblical Times. Here is what I think would be written about this event:

There was a wedding in the United States and was for two gay men. Jesus and his friends were invited and the Pharisee's watched to see what Jesus would do since he had a reputation of eating and hanging out around sinners. Sure enough Jesus went to the wedding because he consider both men as friends. He loved those guys and a crazy thing happened at the wedding feast. They ran smack dab out of beer! The folks asked Mary if she could help and she told Jesus your friends are running out of beer and it's going to spoil the feast. The folks are going to think they are a bunch of cheapskates can't you do something. Then the Pharisee's watch closely and were horrified when Jesus had them bring two kegs filled with water and turned those into two kegs full of Michelob Beer. It caused no small stir that's for sure. 

[marie glen]

Wow, I agree some really good posts here.. But also some differing views and likely the Lord has use for each view.. I pray for peace in knowing His will of attitude for each of us in all these things. And that there be no feelings of guilt. We have to follow our own convictions on what is most faithful to Him.

He1MyHeart, that last paragraph was pretty funny! :laugh: I liked the rest of your post too.. (Liked all the posts tho too :smile: ) I almost forgot! Your thought about the flesh being so fallen some may be born gay, hit a chord with me. I've thought it to be a choice, even tho I consider there is strong suggestion it is not always merely choice.. It's easy to think, when it comes to drug or alcohol addiction, or even other things, there but for the grace of God, but I'd never considered that about this issue..

GodIsLove, that is surely an interesting experience, I'm glad I got to read about it. :smile:

[jabcat]

(edit - apparently was typing while you were marie :)     According to very clear scriptures, some things are not just preference or persuasion (we have some links to prior discussions which show scriptural clarity if desired, including regarding possible predisposition and tendencies vs. continued choices of action and behavior;  ignoring/condoning vs. repenting and looking to Jesus for deliverance and strength to remain faithful).

A matter of conscience has been stressed, which I personally believe is right.  However, as also noted, I believe our conscience needs to be saturated and grounded in the scriptures, not just "what I think is right in my own mind".  Some very good thoughts have been shared about the Lord's leading, our conscience, etc.   :thumbsup:

A few thoughts;  I agree, sin is all around is.  I think we need to be aware of making (spiritual) distinctions in many situations about being in the world, but not of it.  Jesus did spend time with sinners, absolutely.  But it's been a  belief of mine that He did so, not just to revel (spoken against by Paul) but to change them (He was JESUS and could change them - for us, that might mean influence, be a witness, have truth and Life to share when led and the door's opened, etc.)       Also, I agree, Jesus didn't judge and condemn.  But He didn't stop there.  He also said HIS WORDS have already judged.  There is right and wrong, truth and lie, darkness and light - and I believe we're to find our way to the "right" side of those things as the Spirit leads and empowers.  Self-righteousness to not participate or condone?  I don't personally necessarily believe so.  If the motives, heart, spirit is right, and love is present, I don't believe we actually should necessarily go along just to make some sort of peace.  The world will scoff.  That's what they do.  Paul said don't count it a privilege to take abuse for doing wrong, but rather for doing what's right. 

As far as not going might be seen as rejecting them, I think that's why conversation up front and afterward, and being as loving and respectful as possible is important (as others have mentioned).  Making it clear the person isn't being rejected, but that it's a matter of personal conscience.  I believe there's a distinction that can in fact be made between "sin being all around us" and "choosing to acknowledge/participate/revel" in sin.  Again, Paul talked of condoning sin, particularly in the specific context of the verses,  the sin of active homosexuality.  He basically did "condemn" (as in clearly saying it was wrong/sinful) the participant, then went on to also "condemn" anyone approving/condoning the behavior.  They are hard sayings, sometimes difficult for us to accept.  I think we'd often rather it just be easier (I KNOW I would).  Sometimes there's a cross to bear.  Bottom line though, life throws us many such dilemmas and struggles, and that's why I believe each individual's conscience comes into play.  There's not always a one size fits all answer.  I say that with one major caveat.  If I believe my conscience is OK with something, or that some issue "really is OK after all, it's become normal in society/whatever", but, the scriptures clearly teach otherwise - then I believe my own personal beliefs, behavior, and conscience need to be heavily influenced (and likely changed) by that and the Spirit of God.  I've personally played all kinds of games with it, i.e., "well, it says this, but if I just do a little bit, or just once in awhile, it's really OK". 

So anyway, this doesn't really need to turn into "just another homosexuality" thread :)      Areax has some tough decisions to make, and I reckon we should pray for him and support him.  Blessings. 

[marie glen]

I, for one, totally agree!

And I know that personally I take the easy way.. most often the path of least resistance. I also have a problem with authority figures which is probably more the reason I stayed an at home believer/spiritual hermit than because I didn't buy the whole mean God thing.

I know too it is possible my acquaintances and family (involved) may not be aware that I do not approve or think it natural, etc. I think yes, some may think as a Christian I have joined the world in it's crazy (pseudo?) tolerance. But some others know my attitude, that I love (them) a lot but believe it to be 'wrong' and not acceptable.

It's also true that my baby sister likely smoked herself to death and I never joined the chorus of you better quit (and not pick it back up again) ..but would she have listened? Or would she have quit calling me? She had so many issues/sufferings ('began' w leukemia.. but now I really aM straying! :smile: )

I know the LORD (our Father, Old Testament) and Romans does make special mention of it. I'm not often in the mix with people.. The whole world lieth in wickedness. Wars, cheating spouses, sex sells/entertains and other things.. all horrors. This world, what a nightmare...
:Peace2: :smile:

[GodIsLove]

1 Corinthians "9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sisterc but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

If we look at this passage it makes a distinction between a believer and a nonbeliever right? Because a believer who actively engages in immorality is being hypocritical and ignoring or going against the Holy Spirit.

So does that come into play? Is this person a Christian?

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: ...when i visit and stay with my brother, sister in law, their kids and grandkids and my sister in laws siblings and family and during their family/friend get together, I am seen by most as being different. They know I'm not a liberal, so think of me as a republican (and Christian) which are both egads to them! (more libertarian actually).

So it's not as harmonious as we manage to make it be. I believe they all like me quite well, but there's still some distrust I guess I would call it.

I'm SO glad I know of universal redemption/reconciliation! That I can stand on the Rock that Truth remains standing. It alone endures. All untruth will cease to be. Otherwise a person could go plum crazy! :smile:

[sheila]

idk is a 'preacher' marrying them?Aerex 'conscience' is at issue. I am glad we have a thread about it....you never know when it might be you

in a similiar situation..and Im glad for the various perspectives being brought out.

 

[jabcat]

Good thoughts Marie :)

you never know when it might be you in a similiar situation.
 

yep

1 Corinthians "9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sisterc but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

If we look at this passage it makes a distinction between a believer and a nonbeliever right? Because a believer who actively engages in immorality is being hypocritical and ignoring or going against the Holy Spirit.

So does that come into play? Is this person a Christian?

Interesting question for Aerax, as he knows the person well.

I agree this particular passage and its context is about believers and within the body - apostacy, derelict behavior of those naming the name of Christ.  There are of course many other scrips that don't address this particular aspect of within the body, but more of a general addressing separation, not condoning, etc. (including romans 1:26-32).   Glad you're looking for specificity, sounds like Areax (and all of us, in various situations) can use the guidance. :)   :thumbsup:

It's a jungle out there...  :Peace2:   "I send you out as sheep among wolves.." - Jesus to the apostles.

[jabcat]

  "I send you out as sheep among wolves.." - Jesus to the apostles.

oh, and "be you wise as serpents and harmless as doves"..

[guest5685]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: