Do you celebrate Christmas?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't and I have to say I was rejoicing over being totally free from it and it's trappings, a few days ago. I also have to say that obeying the dietary laws too since He opened it up to me fully, has also made a big difference in me and I would highly recommend both.

I was not always observant, but I found deliverance comes from doing these things, something I never would have guessed a few years back, nor did I expect what the deliverance would be from. I will say both came about after a personal word from Him, and I don't condemn anyone for either. We're all at different places in our walk with Him, and we are to all things with love, for Him and for one another. Peace

[Seth]

Hi Cardinal, when you say "deliverance comes from doing these things." Do you mean deliverance from sin? Or deliverance from what you personally don't like about Christmas and foods you no longer eat? I say that because I feel if I have to struggle to avoid things I do enjoy which have no impact on my deliverance from sin, I would feel more enslaved than delivered. I don't feel that avoiding Christmas or pork will make me love my neighbor more or less.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If you understand what deliverance IS, then I mean I got delivered of something that was in my flesh, that was holding me back (as everything does that is not of Him). Prior to this, for years, I thought I could eat what I pleased because of the white sheet of Peter's, which is how most of Christianity interprets it. But the Spirit began to deal with me over it, and I saw it is NOT about making unclean foods clean, but about the gentiles, which it clearly states. In fact, those things are not even listed AS foods to begin with, so the whole debate about whether to eat them or not, should have never occurred because HE did not give them as food for man in the first place.

The ONLY exception is for the cause of LOVE, the situation being where someone serves you the unclean item, and rather than to cause them to stumble you PRAY over it, and because the motive of the heart is right, it is not counted against what YOU know to be right. But our love for Him and His WORD is supposed to be number one and is what caused me to comply and have my eyes opened and experience deliverance. Our love for the brethren and not causing someone to stumble over it, is the fulfillment of the law that Jesus said, ie. loving God first, and our neighbor as our self.

If everywhere you replace law with the word Torah, including the phrase man of LAW-lessness, I realized I was that "man", and he was being revealed in me, as being Torah-less. The law is fulfilled spiritually in us, as we walk it out, being instant in season and out, as the Lord leads us to experience different things. This is how He writes it upon our hearts. Now the dietary is truly fulfilled in me, because I abstain for His sake, but will partake for "their" sake, if need be. So then that law has no harm to me, nor that sin any mastery over me, but I over it, by what the Spirit has made life in me. See?

And as such, once fulfilled, the flesh that was being kept alive by neglecting to allow this law to be fulfilled spiritually in me, was swiftly dealt with, by the Spirit of the Lord.

There has been this whole blinding thing over the body pertaining to working out our own salvation with trembling and fear. Jesus did provide it all for us, but we still have to walk it out with the Spirit and APPROPRIATE what He did and cleanse our garments, spotted by the flesh.

Now as for part of what it did for me, my doctor did a blood test for diabetes that goes back 3 months, this last spring. It came back that I was diabetic. I refused the diagnosis, telling my doctor that was impossible, because the Lord had led me to do 18 days of fasting just prior to the test, the first few days on veggies, the second week on bread and water, the last week on water alone. Since I had taken care of diabetics in my career, I told him this was why I knew I wasn't because if they had done even the first few days, much less the last few, they'd have landed in the hospital by the second day. He prescribed meds, I refused them. He did another 3 month blood test exactly 3 months after the first one, and lo and behold, it came back I was just fine, perfectly normal. He insists still that I was diabetic, and had the lab recheck it. Now whether I was or was not, the Lord took care of it. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Seth]

I guess I have a different view of what John meant when he defined sin as lawlessness. He says

1 John 3
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

The commandments, or law, that John is speaking about is the commandment to believe in Jesus and love one another, not to observe the dietary laws, sacrifice laws or any other part of the Torah. They all find their oneness in loving eachother. That's how we can both please God and yet not be under the tablets and parchments.

When John defines sin, he does so through faith and love, not faith, love and pork. Or faith love and tithing. Or faith, love and sabbaths. So, speaking for myself here, lawlessness does not mean Torah-lessness.

Sin = love-lessness and faith-lessness.

That's why I see Christmas and eating pork as non-issues for me because they are not stumbling blocks to those things, and I know that if I continue to believe in Jesus and love my neighbor I cannot displease God; according to John our hearts cannot condemn us if we walk in love and faith.

My heart will only condemn me if I fall away from loving my neighbor and/or falling from faith, which I have done before. And that is what I think deliverance from sin is about, deliverance from a life without love. That is why I can celebrate Christmas and eat pork with a clear conscience to God.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And that you can, UNLESS He gives you a Spirit breathed personal word to do, or not to do something. Then you are accountable to that word, for man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

I am relating my experience with such a word, and what that word pertained to. You cannot judge me if I do go by Torah, anymore than I can judge you if you don't, because we are all accountable for what we know, and THAT by the Spirit. Amen?

There is LIFE in it to be gleaned, even today, and even to Christians. That's what I'm sharing. Most Christians view the law as unnecessary, inapplicable to them, old covenant, ect., ect. I know; I was one of them. But there is LIFE in it, hidden yet available, for us, even today.

For about a year now, the Lord has been having myself and several others read out loud certain parts of the OT, for specific periods of time. Something about giving the breath to it. And He is blessing it. What I just shared is part of THAT. Some things are simply inexplicable for a season because He doesn't want us to know why we're doing something, until it has born fruit. I would guess, so the carnal mind can't contaminate it. Time is running out very swiftly. Blessings....

[Seth]

unless he gives you a personal to do, or not to do something. Then you are accountable to that word, for man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

I am relating my experience with such a word, and what that word pertained to. You cannot judge me if I do go by Torah, anymore than I can judge you if you don't, because we are all accountable for what we know, and THAT by the Spirit. Amen?

Yes I would agree with that. People should do what they feel led to do. That's why I asked to clarify about deliverance. For me, there is no deliverance in avoiding meats and holidays. For you there is. I think it's important to make that distinction. The idea that there is deliverance in avoiding pork is true for you personally, not a general condition for deliverance for everyone. That's why I asked. I hope you don't think I was judging you for following the Torah. You must do what you feel is right. I just think it's good in this conversation to distinguish what is a general condition/commandment for Chrisitans concerning deliverance, and what are personal ones.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I felt that's what you meant, and that's why I went to extra lengths to explain as best I could so the agreement could be seen. Sometimes words just are not adequate, ya know?  :thumbsup:  Blessings....

[Eduard]

One more thing I'd like to add; I never really felt Christ in 'Christmas', even if they try so hard to fit Him in.  :dontknow:

But I do not condemn those who celebrate Christmas as a holy day either, nor the ones that see it as a pop culture thing, more like me.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Be honest, carnal man and religion created a birthday celebration for Jesus, you certainly can't find instruction for it's celebration in the Bible.
Forget the tree thing, carnal man has a habit of making things to show the how religious he can be.
You want to celebrate a certain day fine, you want to give more gifts to your family members and friends on a certain day fine,
just quit trying to make it something that hallows the BIRTH OF THE SAVIOUR. :2c: :Peace2:

[Eduard]

I think the carnal man has big problems, and choosing a Roman holiday (not the movie  :laughing7: ) to celebrate the birth of the Christ is certainly one that sticks out for the rest of us...

[micah7:9]

I think the carnal man has big problems, and choosing a Roman holiday (not the movie  :laughing7: ) to celebrate the birth of the Christ is certainly one that sticks out for the rest of us...

Your reply is good, christmas and all the hoopdeelaa of saying merry christmas in stead of happy holidays is a weak display and quite dishonest.
The 25th of Dec. is a "holiday celebration" for people who desire a day to swap gifts and be happy, eat a great dinner with friends and family.
And THAT is a a good thing...good cheer...giving..and feeling good. Yet, that should be everyday or any day without recognition as something more. :dsunny:

[Seth]

Like Eduard, I approach it from a secular point of view. Although, something that places Jesus into people's minds can't be all bad. I think it can become an idol like anything, but again I recall Tiny Tim who said he wished he could be seen in public at Christmas time so that people could remember who it was who made the lame to walk and the blind to see. It's hard for me to belabor that, even though I agree we should be remembering that every day. It's not exactly an evil sentiment after all.

Even if Christmas has pagan roots, I think I like the idea of Babylon's riches being plundered and given over to Jesus. I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts.

[Seth]

It reminds me of the gifts of the Magi. If the gold and spices had been mined and harvested and prayed over by pagans, would Jesus have refused their gifts that they carried so far to give him?

What about the fragrant oil the woman gave Jesus at his feet? If it was procured and created for a pagan feast, would he have sent her on her way and refused because it was not of the purest source and created with the best intentions?

I think people offer Jesus what they have to give.

[micah7:9]

"Tiny Tim" ???

"Like Eduard, I approach it from a secular point of view..." Now that's biblical?

"I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts."
If it is in the heart why the need for such a day?

"I think people offer Jesus what they have to give." Yes, offer to Jesus...everyday, any day!

"It's not exactly an evil sentiment after all." No it is not amen, so why produce such secular demonstrations?

Jesus is born everyday when He finds someone, Jesus is risen everyday when that someone is awakened to His ownership.

So I must ask why a day of christmas of celebration? :Peace2:

[jabcat]

I don't have a big dog in this fight, i think people should be educated about it and then go by their own conscience and family needs, etc.  But

I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts.

i like that statement

[micah7:9]

I don't have a big dog in this fight, i think people should be educated about it and then go by their own conscience and family needs, etc.  But

I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts.

i like that statement

"Don't believe it's a big dog, little dog fight at least I hope it has not come down to that, but, "
I think people should be educated about it and then go by their own conscience..."

Educated in what way? Should education show that such a day is not shown and instructed in the Bible and so "conscience" (a carnal awakening attribute) expresses a want to, then get it on? Is this education from milk to strong meat?

I really and honestly don't understand, this forum for me, at least is for the discovery of truths from souls yearning, digging, searching, and seeking truth. Not holding on to things built in Babylon and extending on those carnal thoughts. The Yule tide celebration  is not in the Bible, never spoken of yet there is debate should we or shouldn't we. I just don't get it. :Peace2:

[jabcat]

Educated in this way;  its origins, meanings, roots, etc.   Then, everyone has to answer for themselves.  Some peoples' conscience condemns them, others' don't.  Some may find it so distasteful they can't/won't participate at all.  Some may participate because they want to keep harmony in the family, while still perhaps letting it be known they don't personally put great stock in it as a religious holiday to observe, but as a family, fun day.  Others obviously celebrate it out of ignorance, thinking they're truly serving God by doing so.  IMO, they're not to be condemned or as Seth said, accused of worshiping a false or "another" god.  Until they know better, and until/unless God convicts them, they're going to do the best they know how.

Paraphrasing Apostle Paul - One honors a day, another esteems each day as the same...one eats meat [offered to idols, knowing it won't hurt him, as nothing is unclean in itself] another doesn't. They both do it as unto God, giving thanks...

[Seth]

"Tiny Tim" ???

Yeah Tiny Tim from A Christmas Carol. He said he wished on Christmas Day for people to look at him and remember who it was that made the lame walk and the blind see. I think that's beautiful.

"Like Eduard, I approach it from a secular point of view..." Now that's biblical?

I think you mistook my meaning. I treat Christmas as a cultural holiday. Christmas music, trees, wreaths, food, not a religious one; but I don't belabor anyone who takes it from a religious perspective to remember or honor Christ. Because honoring Christ is a good thing in itself.

"I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts."
If it is in the heart why the need for such a day?

It's not about NEED. I don't eat pepperoni pizza because I need it, but because I enjoy it. Same with Christmas.

"I think people offer Jesus what they have to give." Yes, offer to Jesus...everyday, any day!

Yes, I agree.

Jesus is born everyday when He finds someone, Jesus is risen everyday when that someone is awakened to His ownership.

So I must ask why a day of christmas of celebration? :Peace2:

Because it's enjoyable? Is there something wrong with enjoyment of something that doesn't hinder one's walk with Christ?

[Seth]

One point of clarification/agreement. I think if people put pressure on Christians to celebrate Christmas, that is when I bring up that it's not in the Bible. Nobody should feel that they are doing wrong by not celebrating Christmas. But, strictly speaking, drinking a Coca Cola isn't "Biblical" in the sense that it's not in the Bible, but that doesn't mean it is forbidden. I see it the same with Christmas.

[Ross]

All things are permissible, but not everything is expedient.
Comes down to personal conviction.

[micah7:9]

One point of clarification/agreement. I think if people put pressure on Christians to celebrate Christmas, that is when I bring up that it's not in the Bible. Nobody should feel that they are doing wrong by not celebrating Christmas. But, strictly speaking, drinking a Coca Cola isn't "Biblical" in the sense that it's not in the Bible, but that doesn't mean it is forbidden. I see it the same with Christmas.

Well you totally blew me away with that one! But ok, if you all are happy with no established biblical purpose for such a day of celebration have at it. Personally if Jesus was taken out of the reason for the season I would have no say in it at all. :Peace2:

[Ross]

Interesting to see how many other religions god's were born on Dec 25.

[Ross]

Also interesting how those other religions usually have some water of life involved somewhere.

[Shev]

This is a very interesting thread! I agree with everyone who says that one must be convinced in their own mind, as treating each other with a lack of love over such things would be a graver offense...

But as to my two pennies, for what it is worth (tuppence, I guess!), I have never kept Xmas and really dislike it intensely. However, I have annual practice at showing mutual understanding during the season, as my wife keeps it with her family, so we treat each other's views with respect as she does her Xmas things and I stay at home with the dog.  :winkgrin:

My view of it - and again, no offense intended - is that there is a spirit behind such things, and that if the root is holy, the branches will be holy. I don't think Xmas is from a holy root, and it seems to bear fruit after it's kind. The whole idea of "taking it for Christ" seems hollow, as Xmas is still clearly beloved by unbelievers the world over. If it was born of the Spirit of Christ, would not the world hate it? So then, it appears to me as an awkward and uneasy attempt at an alliance between Christ and the world, even down to the telling of a great lie (Santa) and a great truth (Christ) about two invisible men. Santa is works based, remembering all rights and wrongs, while Christ has atoned for all sin. Let me just add I do not say all Christian parents tell the Santa lie, just that you have that parallel running through the season.

In addition, you have the incredible amount of commercialism, while the nativity story is superimposed on top of it, creating that uneasy alliance once again, as both God and Mammon are served in the same season.

Ultimately, Christians I know often tell me how it is "all about Jesus" for them, yet I tell you the truth - I work for a Christian run business, where many believers have worked, and I go whole Xmas seasons without hearing a single one of them even breathe the words "Jesus Christ", and yet I hear much of Santa, reindeer, mistletoe, Xmas trees, and such things. So to a very large degree, I have found their protestations about how much it is about Jesus to be window dressing. To me, there is a spirit of the season that is not the Spirit of Christ.

Again, this is just my own perspective and thoughts. I agree with Seth's comments about loving one's neighbor, and also what was said about being led by the Spirit, which is loving God, the greatest commandment of all. Ultimately, how we treat one another and answer one another when we disagree about such things, can show our love for one another more than if we were in constant agreement about every matter!  :dsunny: