Ananias and his wife

[Aerex]

Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals rather forgiving them and helping them improve the actual problem. Also, the story says that the ecclesia were covered due to the incident. I thought love cast it out a fear. Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.

[sheila]

 I believe as far as Ananias and his wife were concerned...it was really more about satan being dealt with swiftly.

   satan embolded you and put in your heart..to sin against the Holy spirit........

[Aerex]

So if Satan is in you God has to kill you? Can't God tell him to leave the person besides Satan can't do anything unless God commands it, therefore I dont see how dealing with Satan is relevant here.

[micah7:9]

I cannot answer your question, but I believe that "killed" is not the proper term. Yes, they died, expired, gave up the ghost, but I don't think killed is what happened. Still the Lord has His reasons. Sheila's point is worth thought. :2c: :Peace2:

[SevanthDay]

Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals rather forgiving them and helping them improve the actual problem. Also, the story says that the ecclesia were covered due to the incident. I thought love cast it out a fear. Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.

It was to set an example that God's holy calling is sacred and can not be bought. God wants us to give of ourselves freely to God for service and trust in God to help us to do that. Our servitude to God is a result of his love for us not to gain God's love.

God wants our surrender and complete devotion and commitment but out of his empowerment and not our own.

God is not a taskmaster and though he expects the utmost from us it is through the Christ working in us because our lives are hid in him and we are not our own.

Let us not put on a false front with God, and if we come short and we do, then to ask God for help with out short comings but not to pretend in our devotions and service because God knows our motives for all we think and do.

In the days when we had the ark of the covenant it was forbidden to touch it unless you die. The arc of the covenant was holy and precious and thus is our faith in God who has purchased us with his blood. God has called us to him with a holy calling and to be pretensions with God is like touching the ark of the covenant.

Ananias and his wife mocked God with their false piety:

Gal 6:3  For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Gal 6:4  But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

Gal 6:5  For every man shall bear his own burden.

Gal 6:6  Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Gal 6:7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Gal 6:8  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Surely God will provide salvation for Ananias and his wife but they did reap what they sowed and God chose them to be an example so that we would have true reverence for the Lord.

Now, our walk in Christ as the result of Jesus atonement and it comes at a great cost that Jesus purchased for us. So let us not despise what Christ has done for us by pretentious in our walk.

Heb 12:26  Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Heb 12:27  And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Heb 12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[Aerex]

Thank you all for your responses but I still have some trouble understanding some of it. I do understand that God can't be mocked and I am not saying that what they did was right. I am just concern about the severity of the punishment. Ibget that Ananias was trying to trick God but why didn't God try to resolve this issue. Why was Ananias and his wife doing this? Ironically, the second Peter asked this question they were instantly killed. We will never know the answer in this life.

When I read this and that except from the old testament with the carrying of the tabernacle I don't love God more I fear him. This is the exactly the response the ecclesia had when you his happen. I can't believe this is the type of environment God wants for his children.

Maybe I am taking this far more than I need to because of the persona life I had with my earthly father growing up that I can't deal with this type of thing with God. Maybe I think I am better than God because I think with all of Gods power he could think of a better non violent solution. Of course there are people who are going to mock God but is killing them the answer. Is there a better way to teach them that God is better than what they are seeking because I am not getting that message here.

[sheila]

consider what  had just occurred...offspring of viper spirits had managed to 'seat' themselves on the religious leaders in Israel....

.....God had sent His son to find the lost[as religious leaders should had been leading the people in the true way of God.]

   and restore to pure worship.   He had called out a people and poured out His spirit on them...to proclaim truth and deliver them

  from error .   and right there in the very midst of the people of whom the Holy spirit was dwelling...Satan again makes a move

  to seat himself on Ananais and his wife....the very spirit of the liar and adversary coming to destroy what He was restoring and

where His spirit was dwelling.

    Paul and Jude speak about 'certain' men..who had infiltrated the Holy congregation.......eyes full of adultery etc....and today

we call them wolves in sheep's clothing.   the congregation of the twice dead...represent the power's and principalities adversarial

  offspring of viper's that seek high positions in congregations. Hypocritical wolves in sheeps clothing......they come to kill destroy

  the flock. 

        their hypocrisy is not as what Paul spoke of.......the good that I do..I do not do..it is no longer I,but the sin dwelling in my flesh

  no their hypocrisy is the very spirit of the adversary on such in operation. God may crush the mind of that spirit speedily.....

......and He most certainly will seperate,bind up and burn all such tares[an enemy has sown them] from wheat.


    men are played as pawns of the devil...I am certain that Ananais and his wife have learned righteousness through that swift judgement

of God.they may not have been aware of the magnitude of what satan was trying to do through them at the time,but I am sure they

know now .All men must learn you can not lie to God. Truth must be in our inward parts[or the spirit that is in us]


   The lying spirit is the spirit of the adversary...and it seeks to rob and kill and destroy. Jesus come to break up the wicked works

of the devil[liar] And He has all authority and power to do just that.And He give authority to his disciples to trample on serpents

and scorpions,too.  whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven...whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.


   I see what took place as satan being bound from lying and using Ananais and his wife to do much harm to the congregation...

and Ananais and his wife being delivered/loosed from that lying spirit in order that the spirit be saved.


I'm just sharing some of my reasoning......

[SevanthDay]

Thank you all for your responses but I still have some trouble understanding some of it. I do understand that God can't be mocked and I am not saying that what they did was right. I am just concern about the severity of the punishment. Ibget that Ananias was trying to trick God but why didn't God try to resolve this issue. Why was Ananias and his wife doing this? Ironically, the second Peter asked this question they were instantly killed. We will never know the answer in this life.

When I read this and that except from the old testament with the carrying of the tabernacle I don't love God more I fear him. This is the exactly the response the ecclesia had when you his happen. I can't believe this is the type of environment God wants for his children.

Maybe I am taking this far more than I need to because of the persona life I had with my earthly father growing up that I can't deal with this type of thing with God. Maybe I think I am better than God because I think with all of Gods power he could think of a better non violent solution. Of course there are people who are going to mock God but is killing them the answer. Is there a better way to teach them that God is better than what they are seeking because I am not getting that message here.

God makes examples of us in the way that God pleases and though that may be difficult to understand man lives in contrast to the tree of good and evil which they choose to eat of. Man reaps what he sows.

Now, what happens to the tree of good and evil when one has the tree of life? Is there still a contrast between the law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit and life even in a believer?

How are we going to see this contrast and the results of what we sow that God has put in place for us for our good?

The theme of the scriptures is that God is creating Adam in God's image but God wants us to see how that is worked out which is contrast.

There is the old Adam that is earthly under the law of sin and death and the new Adam in Christ that is under the law of the Spirit and life.

There are the heathen and unrighteous and there are the called and chosen who are in a righteous relationship with God.

However, in the righteous relationship realm with God is a progressive relationship of coming out of Egypt through God's deliverance and God delivering Egypt from us which is another deliverance.

Now, in both realms of the old Adam and the new Adam God makes examples out of it.

Jesus is our example and he went through death with us and was a sacrificial lamb without spot to atone for our sins.

Yes, God does make examples of us such as Judas who betrayed the Lord and hung himself. Tell me who does Judas epitomize?

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[sheila]

my thoughts on touching the ark of the covenant.  what I take from it is the immense POWER OF GOD and His spirit. and though

  His spirit may appear weak and tottering to our fleshly eyes at times...we do not 'help the spirit out' by our fleshly arm......as if

   God's  will being done was dependant on our flesh.especially by doing something He told us specifically not to do.

   sometimes our instinctive reactions[such as an arm of flesh] puts us to death...spiritually speaking.

[SevanthDay]

my thoughts on touching the ark of the covenant.  what I take from it is the immense POWER OF GOD and His spirit. and though

  His spirit may appear weak and tottering to our fleshly eyes at times...we do not 'help the spirit out' by our fleshly arm......as if

   God's  will being done was dependant on our flesh.especially by doing something He told us specifically not to do.

   sometimes our instinctive reactions[such as an arm of flesh] puts us to death...spiritually speaking.

Now, when we sin or think with the carnal mind and not think with our spiritual mind and walk in the Spirit as believers in Christ are we not touching the arc of the covenant and showing disrespect to Jesus who atoned foe us?

Does not God make an example of this for the sake of the body of Christ?  :dsunny:

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[sheila]

  all of these expierences of our ancestors are for us to learn by them.  I can hear Judas saying ...'O brothers beware the snare of satan

as to the love of money....such sorrow I would not desire for you" or King Saul..o'children wait on the Lord..presumptiousness

is the same sin as witch-craft...keep away from the strange woman,such torment and vexing of that spirit I would not desire for you'


      Just as parents today..do not want their children to fall into the same greivous errors...and lessons learned the hard way...but

   choose instead..that they learn from their expierences and avoid these .


   

[Aerex]

To answer your question I think Judas epitomizes the weakness of man. It does not seem like Judas really had a choice because Satan went in him just like he went into Ananias. If that is really the case I don't see how it is just for God to kill them and the Bible says we can't question God. I get it God can do whatever he wants but if this is a relationship I need to understand some of it.

I know kill might not be the right word but I don't know how to describe it right now.

I understand that God is teaching us the contrast between good and evil I just don't understand that it leads to death for some especially in this incident. Also, I know scripture says that the wages of sin is death. We will all die someday but that does not mean we have to die now. Ananias is dead and he is not going to learn anything until he is resurrected. I don't even know if the ecclesia learned anything because all the bible says is that they were afraid. I should go read that chapter again. My main contention is that I want to emulate God but I can't punish someone as severe certainly to my own children. I wish the Bible could provide some more context it seown to be missing a lot of important to really understand what is happening. Why is that? Like what could drive a man like Cain to murder his own brother. I know he was jealous but normal people do not do this. Maybe he was a narcissist or maybe he had a mental illness. Who knows. I think maybe it is not important for us but could it be for the people involved.

[SevanthDay]

To answer your question I think Judas epitomizes the weakness of man. It does not seem like Judas really had a choice because Satan went in him just like he went into Ananias. If that is really the case I don't see how it is just for God to kill them and the Bible says we can't question God. I get it God can do whatever he wants but if this is a relationship I need to understand some of it.

I know kill might not be the right word but I don't know how to describe it right now.

I understand that God is teaching us the contrast between good and evil I just don't understand that it leads to death for some especially in this incident. Also, I know scripture says that the wages of sin is death. We will all die someday but that does not mean we have to die now. Ananias is dead and he is not going to learn anything until he is resurrected. I don't even know if the ecclesia learned anything because all the bible says is that they were afraid. I should go read that chapter again. My main contention is that I want to emulate God but I can't punish someone as severe certainly to my own children. I wish the Bible could provide some more context it seown to be missing a lot of important to really understand what is happening. Why is that? Like what could drive a man like Cain to murder his own brother. I know he was jealous but normal people do not do this. Maybe he was a narcissist or maybe he had a mental illness. Who knows. I think maybe it is not important for us but could it be for the people involved.

We have to accept the way God is working out his purposes and seek God for understanding and God will reveal what he chooses that is best for us in God's timing.

Here is a scripture that is difficult to understand but it is concerning election and contrast is involved and it is necessary in the way God is operating in creating Adam in God's image.

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Now, we do get understanding for the way God has worked things out concerning Esau and Jacob which both represent types: One is the natural man and the other is the spiritual man. One is the called and chosen and one is not.


However, the one that is called is responsible to work with God to see that those who are not called to God are:

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

We all go through contrast and God does make examples out of humanity but it is for the benifit of all.

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[sheila]

read up on 1John 5;16 too.   what if you had the power to kill and make alive? what if the corrupt image had to die so that the new

  incorrupt image could live.?

    say your child needed a heart transplant[I'm reasoning like a man,here] and they actually had to stop your child's heart[put to death] to

do the transplant....so that she could live?   she sleeps[goes unconscious/heart ceases beating] and awakes with her new heart?

  unto a healed vigorous life...not the sickly dying life she was existing in before.

[sheila]

what if Jesus was the one who give her the new heart? and give up His life so that she could live?

[SevanthDay]

what if Jesus was the one who give her the new heart? and give up His life so that she could live?

Jesus has done that for all and the outworking of Jesus atonement is to reconcile of all of humanity so that they can come into spiritual maturity as sons and daughters of the most high and no one is exempt from this orderly arrangement in God's timing.  :dsunny:

2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

1Ti 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


God bless you,

SeventhDay

[marie glen]

This one is a hard one.. I think.. I like to merely skim this section in my readings -  :eek: :laughing7: Not the proper attitude I know..

I'm thinking it's like with Israel.. and the stonings.. tiny Israel was chosen to be swaddling cloths / birthplace for Jesus.. a place somewhat prepared for Messiah's birth, as opposed to His being born in the midst of tree worshipers or something..

The Father is the husbandman/farmer/gardener, and he does do pruning.. This seed of deceit and disobedience at this important time must have had to be dealt with.. and He knew their hearts and we don't.. And knew the future which would come from it..
         :2c:

[sheila]

in man in the corrupted image..you see various degrees of corruption in their flesh..genetics and birth-defects[imperfection] cancers

blindness,mental illness....all multiple examples of a lack of perfection in their fleshly organism.  some of the imperfections bring death

  much quicker then the 70-80 years of the average lifespan....but death is the outcome......sooner or later.

   some are born with defects so severe..it is incompatible with supporting life at all.

  under the old law covenant only those sound[whole] in the flesh could serve as priests.  leprosy..etc would exclude from

  service and ministering before the Lord unto the people. wholeness/holiness unto the Lord  to come into His presence was

  commanded. When Miriam was stricken with leprosy she had to stay outside the camp for 7 days.


   Father only accepted whole unblemished sacrifices[whole heart.mind/body.]  that may seem unfair to all us sinsick diseased

men in Adam.  BUT WHAT IT REALLY SPEAKS IS THE FATHER"S HEART THAT MAN DWELLING IN SUCH A CORRUPT/SICK STATE

IS NOT TO BE ACCEPTABLE/TOLERATED ....THAT HE CAN HARDLY BEAR THE PRESENCE OF IT> AND THROUGH HIS SON AND THE

HEALING , FORGIVENESS AND RESTORATION OF MAN WE SHALL ALL DWELL TOGATHER>.IN WHOLENESS/HOLINESS

AND PERFECTION....WHICH IS LOVE.

   

[sheila]

  yes...some of these things are difficult to fathom...but it always helps to know His heart motivation;Father is love.....His 'tough' love

   at times..isn't always pleasant.  But learn we will...for our own good.Our temporary sorrow is nothing compared to what

  peace and joy will be ours .

[SevanthDay]

  yes...some of these things are difficult to fathom...but it always helps to know His heart motivation;Father is love.....His 'tough' love

   at times..isn't always pleasant.  But learn we will...for our own good.Our temporary sorrow is nothing compared to what

  peace and joy will be ours .

Amen!  :dsunny:

God bless you,

SeventhDay

[rosered]

  Good question and answers all around  :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:


   When trying to understand the Word of God , It helped  to understand     that Annias and saphaphia   were doing the deeds of the flesh , lying to the Holy Spirit .
  the lying and  murdering is of the devil   [ below  earthly sensual and devilish     world of corruption ]    no flesh pleases God



  We Know the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth       .

Finding that Jesus Christ come in the likeness or image of sinful flesh  and yet WE KNOW   JESUS CHRIST IS THE  SPIRIT AND LIFE

But we also know Jesus Christ is the very IMAGE and likeness of the FATHER   WHOM IS described  in the WORD  as LOVE  , SPIRIT & TRUTH , HOLY  AND consuming Fire  and mostly to me lately seeing it is  LIVING   , no death at all , no corruption


  Romans 8 No Condemnation in Christ
...2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

  there is life i9n the Spirit and death when walking in the flesh
  just an observation

  God bless
 
:dsunny:

[Patinak]

Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals rather forgiving them and helping them improve the actual problem. Also, the story says that the ecclesia were covered due to the incident. I thought love cast it out a fear. Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.

I guess that like most in the Bible, there is more to it than what's on the surface.

The story doesn't say that God killed them.

Acts 5:12 says that through the hands of the apostles, many signs and wonders were taking place.  Maybe this was one of their doing.  Or maybe Peter drew his sword again.  Verse 13 says no one else dared to associate with them. 

A separate question from me: Maybe this was a Jewish thing, but why did they take Ananias out and bury him right then?

[marie glen]

About the ark and touching it, I've always figured it was a natural thing like when God told Moses to tell the people to stay back from the mountain (of His Presence) lest He break forth and they be killed.. I've never thought of that as "lest I cannot control myself and slaughter them" but that it was an effect of being imperfect, in that His pure Spirit consumes all which is not perfect..

Same with the ark of His Presence.. I figure :smile: :2c:

Today I've been thinking about Ananias and Saphira.. their deaths actually were quite easy (and I don't mean to sound callous) kind of like dying in your sleep, as opposed to so many other ways.. and they died together, or that is together in the same day.. And not one widowed and bereaved.. etc..

And I also figure the next thing they'll know, they will be hearing the Lord's voice and waking up from their graves.. so in effect it will be like leaving this life and being with the Lord.. Likely they will regret missing and sharing in those exciting new testament days.. working in behalf of God's kingdom..

....? :2c: :smile:

[micah7:9]

To answer your question I think Judas epitomizes the weakness of man. It does not seem like Judas really had a choice because Satan went in him just like he went into Ananias. If that is really the case I don't see how it is just for God to kill them and the Bible says we can't question God. I get it God can do whatever he wants but if this is a relationship I need to understand some of it.

I know kill might not be the right word but I don't know how to describe it right now.

I understand that God is teaching us the contrast between good and evil I just don't understand that it leads to death for some especially in this incident. Also, I know scripture says that the wages of sin is death. We will all die someday but that does not mean we have to die now. Ananias is dead and he is not going to learn anything until he is resurrected. I don't even know if the ecclesia learned anything because all the bible says is that they were afraid. I should go read that chapter again. My main contention is that I want to emulate God but I can't punish someone as severe certainly to my own children. I wish the Bible could provide some more context it seown to be missing a lot of important to really understand what is happening. Why is that? Like what could drive a man like Cain to murder his own brother. I know he was jealous but normal people do not do this. Maybe he was a narcissist or maybe he had a mental illness. Who knows. I think maybe it is not important for us but could it be for the people involved.

Judas was "sent" and he was obedient.

[GodIsLove]

I like Rob Bell, though recently he has been sounding a bit new-agey. Anyway, I read a blog article he wrote about this story and some of his main points:

1) Peter was harsh to them because of his history (he denied Jesus 3x) therefore honesty was important to him...it wasn't about the money but about the dishonesty
2) nowhere does it say God killed them, and since the details are left out we really can't know exactly what happened

Here is the last bit of his article, I think it is great:

"Luke wants us to know that the resurrection led to the formation of a community of generous and honest people who gave themselves to the well being of each other, doing whatever they needed to do to make sure everyone had their needs met. They were highly aware of the divine presence in their midst, leading them and convicting them and giving them hope that a better world really is possible, right here and right how when we all do our part.
Is there a God who struck them down? *
Did Peter actually know that they were about to die?
Is this an example of supernatural judgment?
I have no idea.
No one does.
Let the story be what it is.
Let the Bible be what it is.
And then go take care of someone's needs.
And don't pretend you're more righteous than you are.
That'll kill you."

*yikes. I just re read this. I thought it said "is God who struck them down" ...that's how I would word it and that's how he worded it elsewhere in the article.